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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Windscreen dismantling

Hi everyone,

Deep into winter boredom, so looking to take something apart for the sake of a project ;-)

At the moment I have the dash off for installing some new gauges, tidying up the wiring and putting in some new wiper spindles and tubing.

Whilst I'm at it, I might take off the windscreen and replace the glass as it is a complete state. Am I in for a world of pain here? Or is removing and replacing the glass relatively easy?

Just want to know what I am maybe letting myself in for!

I am also tempted to get the frame blasted and powder coated black, as part of what will be an ongoing "de-chroming" of my car for a different look.

Cheers,
Malc.
Malcolm

Not done it but by all accounts, it's a pig of a job as the steel screws corrode very nicely indeed with the alloy frame.
IIRC Jan has a frame which he's taken apart and reassembled and is for sale if you want a shortcut?
Jeremy MkIII

I've done a couple of frames. Jeremey is right about the screws but they can be removed/ replaced etc and threads re-tapped etc. Important to get the right length screws as they differ according to position around the frame so look for this as you remove them. Too long in the wrong place and they can crack the new glass.

There is a method I used for refitting glass and frame using ratchet straps, and then again with the ratchets for pulling the frame back down onto the body.

I think the rubber seals are quite pricey these days and certainly at one time there were questions about the accuracy of the seal profiles. So a bit of research on that may be needed.
GuyW

I’ve done two of them and apart from the possible problem with the screws, I found the biggest headache is the seal. The original ones were solid rubber and they had a thickened profile to fill out the side stanchions. The modern ones are sponge rubber which is very soft and all one profile all round. The profile is also too small. I’m pretty sure that there is only one type of seal available. I tried lots of suppliers and even spoke to a company that does exchange screens and they use the same unsatisfactory seal.

I managed to fill the voids in the sides with a thick layer of Sikaflex which I allowed to cure before proceeding.
Even when I’d finished it there were leaks which I had to cure with screen sealer. There is already damage to the soft sponge rubber seals on my Sprite where the wiper blades contact the seal. But at least I now have a nice clear screen.
If you can save your frame to body seal, reuse it.
Good luck, Malc.

Bernie.
b higginson

Well... I suppose I can check if the top screws will come out before I take the frame off the body. That could save me some grief.

The seal is £21 Guy. Does that count as pricey in your book? :-) Edit seeing Bernies post... or maybe I need to try to rescue the one I have?!

Cheers,
Malc
Malcolm

I thought the seals were more than that, but that may have been the frogeye version. Bernie's advice may be good though!

Glass for mine was only £30, though that was a good while ago now! But reassembling frame onto rubber onto glass was quite difficult with the seal I was using. Not a soft foam one! The solution was rubber lubricant and then to tighten the frame members on by progressive tightening of carefully positioned ratchet straps. Tighten a bit- leave for 10 minutes as the rubber 'crept' into position, - tighten a bit more, wait again etc.
GuyW

I bought a couple of complete spare screens, one came apart pretty easily and the other not so, but I am sure you'll manage it. I polished mine, a very long job but worth it in the end.

As Bernie said the worse problem was the seals, the new seal that protects the glass against the inner frame was far too big and the seal to the body far too thick and wont contract enough to get a good fit, mine needs to come off again for fine tuning the seals, but my old seals were far too tired to reuse.

The glass was very cheap from MG B Hive but a long drive to collect it but well worthwhile as no longer looking through 50 years of scratches.
Tim Lynam

The Sprite'e screen was peppered with small chips and driving in the rain or at night was difficult. I bought a second hand one from eBay but it was just as bad. Considering the cars are over 50 years old this wasn't surprising. I then bought a new glass and seal from Moss in Manchester, it is a genuine Pilkingtons one, laminated and wasn't expensive. Yes the frame screws are a nightmare, especially the bottom ones which live in the damp. I dismantled both frames, retapped all threads and replaced all screws with stainless ones. I still have one as a spare and would let you have it for the cost of postage and a £10 donation to my brother in laws cancer charity. Actually fitting the glass isn't too bad. You will need four ratchet straps and some liquid soap. Pushing it down into the body against the rubber flap was the worst job.

Jan
J Targosz

For re-attaching to the body, use the ratchet straps again. One each side, looped under the top door hinge and over the top of the screen. I will see if I can find the photo of my method but I know its out on the internet so it may appear anyway!
GuyW

This Guy?

http://www.mg-cars.net/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/windscreen-frame-fitting-2011053010052310083.htm

Or this?

http://www.mg-cars.info/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs/fitting-new-glass-into-widscreen-frame-20210719164904183030.htm

Both feature you.

BTW. If you want to search the tech archive, try this link to mg-cars.net

It's the 'MG Midget and Sprite Technical index' .

I've found it VERY useful.

http://www.mg-cars.info/mg-midget-sprite-technical-bbs.htm






anamnesis

Yep, That's my blue '71 Sprite with the yellow mini ratchet straps, after its 2nd respray.
I also explain my use of straps to gently ease the screen frame members and seals back onto the glass.
GuyW

Is the ratchet strap and cussing mullarky for just the later curved screens or is the early flat screen just as difficult? I thought I might do mine sooner rather than later but will wait until better weather if it's one of those little jobs that can degenerate into a job from hell. My car lives outside so wouldn't want to be stuck with no screen while I wait for some imperial sized thingy I didn't know I needed to turn up.


P Peters

Big difference in screen price for Triplex on Moss site.

Would the non triplex be any less good?


https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/mg/midget/body-chassis/windscreens-fittings/windscreen-sprite-iv-midget-iii-1500-1966-79.html



anamnesis

I bought one of the cheaper ones along with a set of rubbers from Moss. Fitting it wasn't too difficult, the size and shape were perfect, the view is now crystal clear, the wipers work and the car looks so much fresher. Can't comment on the long term durability but at the moment I am very pleased with both screen and rubbers.

Jan T
J Targosz

That's interesting Jan. I don't know about the new rubbers you got from Moss, but glass is glass isn't it? I can't think why the much cheaper unbranded screen would last any less time than pretty expensive Triplex screen.
anamnesis

The cheaper one Moss sell isn't undranded it has the Pilkingtons logo in the corner.

As I mentioned above I used eBay to buy a "good condition" screen. That description means you can at least see light through it. Considering the very modest cost and the difference it makes a brand new screen is very worthwhile.

I took the two old screens to the tip and when I thtew them into the skip they shattered into fragments so must have been toughened. Pre 1960 cars used laminated glass - remember the old Morris and Ford cars with yellow patches on their screens caused by delamination. Toughened glass then took over, your feet would cruch on the fragments as you searched around scrap yards. Laminated now appears to be the norm. I wonder why this has happened.

Jan T
J Targosz

Ah right. If they're pilkingtons then great value as you say, and not worth buying 2nd hand. So why the hell are the triplex so much more expensive?
anamnesis

Are they laminated and toughened. So they would shatter into little cubes, not shards, but the cubes stay attached in place because of the plastic laminate?
Surprised to see the also list a heated screen, though at a price!
GuyW

I presume the Triplex is for concours contestants who want ultimate originality.
David Billington

I understand car screens are 2 layers of glass laminated with a PVB plastic layer, don't think the glass is heat strengthened its certainly not toughened.

In construction we used a lot of laminated and the glass used could be annealed, heat strenghened or even occasionally toughened but that obviously was more expensive and used only in special circumstances.

Cars stopped using toughened for front screens for a number of reasons, including if the screens shattered the view out was nearly nil,later ones had a visibility area where the breakages were larger but not good. The other serious issue was impact - a large item hitting the screen could go right through and hit the occupants - laminated is significantly better for impact but fragments can still fly off. The interlayers are now much better than they used to be and the delamination is much less likely than it used to be.

Years ago I was driving a company Fiesta up the M5 and a car a couple in front must have hit a large bird and stunned/killed it - it landed straight in front of my steering wheel and I know I ducked down ! - huge impact and stove the screen in a few inches.

The repair company said if it was suspicious they had to report such incidents to the Police (hit and run etc) but mine was covered in blood and feathers so no need.

R.
richard b

Back to Malc's request for info,

I've done both B and Midgets and yes they are a pain.
The screws as mentioned corrode, the ones at the bottom beneath the rubber scuttle seal are worst - they screw into steel angle brackets that rust - mine needed replacement and I had to make replacements as at that time they were unavailable.

A tip when refitting is to mark the centre of the top/bottom frames and the glass with a wax crayon to help centralise everything when pushing it all together!

I use a small amount of windscreen mastic between the glass and seal at the very bottom of the screen on both sides. Also mastic to the bottom of the frames at the ends where the seal joins the side brackets as there is a void.
If your screen is original you will likely find a hard white putty /dried oil mastic in this location.

When refitting to the car I also add a little mastic below the pillar rubbers.

The correct mastic I believe is an oil based Special windsceen mastic - it cleans up well with white spirit, beware much now sold is for moderns what are bonded and use adhesive mastics/silicon/polyurthanes etc which would be rather unsuitable !
I'll have a look for the stuff I've used - came in an alloy tube like toothpaste !

When refitting I usually get an assistant to press down on the centre and use a podger to align the bolts but Guys strap seems a good idea.
The scuttle seal if new is a right pain as it rolls itself in under the screen and has to be pushed out as the screen is push down. If your old one is reused you won't have the issue !

R.
richard b

Two comment on Richard's post -
For a mastic in a tube, I used black Sikkaflex.
And, at least on Frogeyes, the bottom screen to body seal is supposed to roll under, and not be pushed out. Yes, it seems surprising! I don't know if this is supposed to apply to later screens as well but you do see lots of Frogeyes with the seal, wrongly, extended forwards.
GuyW

Guy
If you look at the screen to scuttle pic of your 1275 posted above you will see what I mean about the seal facing forward.

Sikaflex is not user friendly when it comes to cleaning up - used lots of that on boats ! I think it’s a polyurethane so not easy to get off painted surfaces !

I used Sealastic but don’t think it’s still available. Adshead Ratcliffe do similar specialist mastics for old style windscreen fitting - Arbomast. Easy clean up.

R.
richard b

Indeed Richard, on my 1275 I spent time making sure the seal extended forwards as you described because it looked like it was supposed to. Then later, when fixing my Frogeye screen discovered (in Horler, I think it was) that it was supposed to roll under to create an effective seal along the scuttle. As the seals are similar in section I wondered if the later seal was wrongly fitted, though all the ones I have remembered to look at are like that. Hence I posted that last message.

I don't plan on changing either! 😂
GuyW

Am I misunderstanding, or are you both talking about this forward section of the frame to body seal, as indicated by my red arrow?

I don't know about the frog, but I can't see how you'd roll this under(back) on this type of seal. My '66 Sprite had never been apart when I got it, and the seal was forward as in Guy's picture.


anamnesis

Yes, that's it. Very similar profile to the later seal, but apparently originally fitted with the front lip rolled under. Supposed to help it maintain pressure onto the scuttle


GuyW

Ah yes I see. Maybe the early seal is a better design then, as the later one sits on/against the wiper housing and doesn't seal very well. I put a bit of mastic under it there to seal it. But I've never had water coming through there, so maybe it's not needed.
anamnesis

I simply bought the glass and seals from Moss and assembled everything using nothing more than washing up liquid as a lubricant. I didn't use any mastic and there are no leaks - appart from the ones that were there when the car was new!

The worst job was removing the screws from the frame. I had to redrill and retap the bottom ones. Unless you have done this sort of work before you could have problems. There was an issue with the frame to body seal. this slides in a groove in the bottom rail and it was very tight. I eventually managed to pull it along using a pair of mole grips and petrol as a lubricant. This made the rubber very slippery. Fortunately the seal from Moss was oversize and I could cut off the bit that the moles had marked. After the petrol had evaporated the rubber was back to as before.

The stanchions are fitted to the body with one through bolt and one that screws into threads in the stanchion. I found that I was able to partially pull the frame down with rachet straps to compress the body seal and then leaver it fully with a screwdriver through one of the holes in the body and into the stanchion. Once you have a bolt partially started the job is virtually done.

Jan T
J Targosz

Thanks Jan, it is reassuring to hear that you found the parts to be decent.

Cheers,
Malc.
Malcolm

I had a difficult time with the last windshield replacement. They last about a year in New Mexico before becoming seriously pitted due to blowing sand in the desert. I think my car has had 8 or 10 windshields by now.

The last windshield I installed was made in South Africa. I struggled with a new rubber seal before I realized that the glass was thicker than the previous windshield. I ended up using the old seal, which had been replaced a time or two before. No leaks but I always replace the screws with new ones ad they are definitely perishable.
Glenn Mallory

That's a drag Glenn. Pity there isn't some kind of coating you could apply to the windscreen to protect it from the sandblasting. How do modern cars screens survive? Any better?
anamnesis

Not sure if anyone is interested, but I went about fitting the windscreen a little different.

You can read my post on it here:

https://www.mgmidgetrestoration.com/2022/06/fitting-windscreen.html

Probably not the best way but it seems ok apart from now that I have fitted the quarterlight windows I need to undo the four securing bolts and put the windscreen back a little and the gap between the windscreen and QL is slightly too big at the top.

James Paul

Excellent post James. I didn't use the plastic hose but did leaver the frame down through the screw holes. I bent a piece of rod to about 20 degs and this provided extra leaverage.

Jan T
J Targosz

An update on this... I have decided I had enough to do without going balls deep on rebuilding a windscreen. I do want to drive the car again one day!

That said, it is/was still really nasty and covered in a lot of grinding spatter (note - cover your windscreen whilst doing bodywork! :-D) So I took the windscreen off the shell earlier this week and last night stuck it in the bathtub and hit it with some "Turtle Wax Redline", which is a wheel cleaner with fallout remover in (I had run out of "proper" fallout remover).

The frame itself came up nicely, and the glass bled a lot of purple. It's difficult to take a picture of, but you can see in the attached. I hit the glass with four rounds of the cleaner (it doesn't seem to be that strong) and it was still bleeding a little. Then rinsed dried it and cleaned it with glass cleaner and it looks to be orders of magnitude better!

It might not have sorted all the micro scratches from 40 years of abuse, but hopefully it won't sparkle anymore!

Cheers,
Malc.

P.S... James, I really am going to sort that hard top this year! :-D



Malcolm

"
P.S... James, I really am going to sort that hard top this year! :-D"



LOL!!!
Bought mine almost 3 years ago and only since this week have it ready to paint sofar... :)
I see I havent updated my photo's yet... its now sanded and plastered and ready for the finishpaint.
Then the interior of the top and putting back the window... probably already sunny weather when its finished ;)


A de Best

found some other of your Pride&Clarke type B tops.
They have the rearwindow in rubber.
Check out woolies for glazingrubbers:
https://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/





A de Best

Malc I have been wondering recently what it would look like on mine now that I have nearly finished.

Not sure it would work so glad it has gone to a good home.





James Paul

James, as yours is a midget mk2 not all hardtops will fit (because of the reardeck side bit at B post).
Ofcourse Malcoms top does as its your old one :)

If your intrested in a hardtop I know some one in the UK who is selling his original Denis Ferranti midget mk2 factory hardtop.





A de Best

Yes could be interested if the price is right
James Paul

But how do you get it up Arie?

Here's how I get it up. 😅





anamnesis

James, mail me at ariedebest at live dot nl
Without the spaces inbetween ofcourse ;)

Anam, some serious enginering there!
Despite my hardtop not being finished im already working on a system to put mine on the garage ceiling.
Good thing for me is that the ceiling in my garage isnt as high up as yours.
Will make photo's later once installed.
A de Best

Hi Arie. Yep the double pully system works well. More than halves the effort.

One thing to note. The hardtops as you probably know, are rear heavy. Care must be taken when pulling them up, not to lift the front above the rear. As you lift, ALWAYS keep the front end lower than the rear end. If you don't, and there's nothing above to stop it, the front will suddenly shoot up back and over.

How do you think I know that then? 🤣🤣🤣
anamnesis

LOL!!

Mine is much lighter as mine has no glass but a perspex rearwindow and isnt double layerd as yours.
So I dont need Hinges&pulleys from the Titanic to lift it.
;)

A de Best

James dont email me, Karl's top is allready advertised on this bbs. :)

go to classified type in hardtop - midget mk2 and presto there is the advert+phonenr.

Maybe this link works to: https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/cgi-bin/or17?srchkey=hardtop&srchtype=B§ion_req=&model_req=Midget+MKII&country_req=&county_req=&matchall=yes&runprog=mgclassnew
A de Best

I used to just hang it vertically on a side wall, but bang my head on it from time to time.

I needed more space, and a quicker easier way to remove, store, and refit. The ceiling was empty, but getting it up there, single handed, led me to titanic whinches lol. Actually they are pretty small, but doubled up, it's very easy.

I just drive under it. I can remove and whinch up in less than 10 mins. Fitting takes no more, and me old back don't 'urt no more. 😁
anamnesis

This thread was discussed between 19/01/2023 and 20/02/2023

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.