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MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wire or steel wheels

At the end of another thread I was given some jocular advice about this on my blue 65 sprite with wire wheels. So after some beard sctratching I've decided to change to steel wheels for the following reasons

Wire wheels are only allowed on red Spridgets - mines blue
Rusty wire ones are too difficult to restore
No issues with tuning spokes
Will inevitably need to replace hubs with worn splines
I have a set of steels and hubs aldeady
Tyres are cheaper and easier to fit
And I have a set of chrome hub caps.

It's pretty obvious really but I thought I would thank those that gave this advice so I didn't rush in where the angels fear to tread.

Brendon Le Page
B M Le Page

Brendon

If you want wire wheels - enjoy them. They can look good.

There were some good tips on suitable companies to refurb them.

Do you have a steel wheel axle to replace a wire wheel rear axle, or were your wires bolt on adapters on the back?

Cheers
Mike


M Wood

As Mike has put you do need the other bits as well as the wheels - but you had me at chrome hub caps!

Obviously photographic proof would be required with the appropriate day's newspaper front page clearly visible.

If you don't have the axle you could consider just painting your car Tartan red but the wire would have to be chrome (no offence to those with such a combination, different strokes for different folks).



Nigel Atkins

Well its a question of money too. Everytime I have to pay an expert for something I can't do it's more than I can afford whereas my labour is free even if it takes me three times as long. Some things I have no option but to call in a professional. And I can get £150 or so for the 5 wires.

I have got a complete rear axle and front suspension as well as the wheels from a steel wheel parts car. When it comes to it I'll work out as much as I can and ask for help.

Brendon
B M Le Page

As Mike said, if your car has always had wires, you’ll need to change the axle, too.

I converted my last RWA midget from wires to steels (Rostyles), as I thought they looked better on that age of car. Also, they are a lot less hassle than splines, spokes, tubes and trying to keep them clean.

I was also tempted to convert my MGB to steels, and had collected all the necessary parts, but in the end I couldn’t be bothered.
Dave O'Neill 2

So you'll read the answers from a website but not read what's written in a book! Tut. :shakeshead: (:questionmarksacasmemoji: ? 😁 )
Nigel Atkins

Brendon

Does your steel wheel front set up have good kingpins? If not factor that in too for reaming and new king pins. This would be a good opportunity to replace any perished suspension bushes and flush out your lever arm dampers and put in new oil (20 weight motorcycle fork oil), plus check to see the wishbones are OK (no cracks) as well as check/fit new front wheel hub bearings (the MGOC Meditech ones with the correct radius, or NOS items).

I am not trying to make things sound more complex and expensive, but once you start pulling apart front and rear suspension you can find stuff that needs attention. Also ensuring all the ‘new’ setup is in serviceable condition before it goes on.

Wiser heads on here will suggest what would be sensible to refurb before fitting and what basic refurbing could include. I would be cleaning and painting the outside of the replacement axle, checking its breather was clear, the drain plug was OK, perhaps replacing the rear paper seal, making sure the handbrake mechanism was OK. Then fitting it, replacing the rear hub rubber and paper oil seals (kit from Malc here with correct thickness of paper seal), new brake shoes and then filling with oil once on its wheels after brakes adjusted. Also new rear flexible brake pipe to axle.

And various bits for the front.

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

Thanks Mike I usually don't know where to stop so I'm training myself to do a bit, make sure it's safe and then drive. I've refurbished the front shocks and will replace all the rubber things I can.

So I'm going to use all your advice as a checklist but will do just what can be done in a weekend or so so I can drive, and then tackle another part of the checklist, even if it takes more time overall. In any case, freed nuts and bolts make everything much quicker the second time.

Thanks
Brendon
B M Le Page

Thanks Brendon

Do wait for the wiser heads to come along.

You may decide to stick with your wire wheels if everything else if OK, just send the wheels off to Tudor Wheels or similar for a refurb. Depends on the condition of your current set up of front and rear suspension and the steel wheel set up you are planning to use.

Have you joined the Midget and Sprite Club? Very useful club magazine and the Kent group is active with some very technically gifted and helpful folk (e.g. Alan Anstead).

Cheers
Mike
M Wood

No need to worry about changing kingpins, as it’s only the hubs and discs that need swapping.
Dave O'Neill 2

So much good advice.

I've got a complete rear axle and front suspension and steel wheels all from the same car which just need refurbishing.

My first project was a tartan red MG with wires which did look nice. I've decided to go for steel wheels with my blue Sprite. I believe wires were originally grey not chrome so that's what I did.

I hope kingpins will be OK as low mileage and I greased everything as soon as I got the car.

Also SA parlance will be strange I don't knoiw why we called the wheel trims hub caps. I know they aren't. And we stop at red robots - figure that out 🤔😁
I'll keep this thread alive and report on progress and keep asking for advice.

Brendon (heater fan is broken at 0C of course)

B M Le Page

How about centre lock alloys?
MG Moneypit

I don't see the issues with cleaning wire wheels, a good power washer and they clean up fairly quickly, yes they take longer but unless your using the car as a daily driver what's another few minutes.

It can be a bit of a pain getting punctures repaired, but I just keep a spare inner tube in the car and just get the tubes swapped over, although some of the big tyre chains wont touch inner tubes and some don't even know what an inner tube is!

If you like them keep them if you don't swap them, or as suggested above centre lock alloys, they are a bit pricey but a great alternative and look good.


Tim Lynam

Brendon,
the heater fan is barely used even in winter as once you're going above about 20mph the rammed air coming in is greater than than the fan assistance.

The fan is useful at the very start but the heater can be used without - this may seem counterintuitive but keep the fresh air valve/flap fully open at all times all year round (unless following a VAG diesel of course). This will get the most air through the heater matrix giving the most heated air. Or if the heater tap on the cylinder head is turned off the maximum unheated fresh air (unless following a VAG diesel of course). Having done about 17 years of Spridget winter driving I have plenty of conformation of this method.

The fresh air flap/valve isn't the heater control the heater tap on the cylinder head is, all in a certain book. 😉

To help with having a fan, or not, for clearing the windscreen, close both footwell flaps/doors, use a synthetic chammy, rather than a PITA leather cloth, to clear the inside of the screen and open quarter lights or door windows to equalise cabin interior and outside for the start up and start of the journey as this helps helps too.

Usually if the original type combined heater fan and and fresh air flap/valve cable is fitted it's the wire connections at that switch that break, you can get round this but just wiring in a temporary/permanent aftermarket standard switch. The heater box will not blow up if you have the fresh air flap/valve fully shut and the fan running as the windscreen vents are permanently open and footwell flap/doors aren't sealed. Some people seem to attribute a level of sophistication to these cars that simply isn't there.

If you're changing rubber bushes then do yourself a favour by possibly avoiding modern made piss-poor rubbish rubber and go for something like Super-Pro or Super-Flex.
Nigel Atkins

Ah, Tim, I wanted a word with you.

Black number plates, really(!?), wrong for road safety - and originality - and yellow goes better against red.

See me after lessons!
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, you cant see the number plates in the profile pic on the Midget I am intrigued! I'm not one for keeping everything original, well just the wire wheels as it had when it left the factory.
Tim Lynam

Tim,
just one of my pet dislikes, reflective number plates were on cars when they were new in the 60s as they offered greater visibility of the vehicle when moving and parked - and still do. And to me they look even more wronger on cars from the 70s and 80s and I've even seen them on the likes of the BMW MINIs especially black bodywork. Many seem to think all classics must have black number plates. When I first noticed cars as a kid the new ones all had reflective plates as black plates would be on old cars.

I can't cast the first stone as my previous Spridget had them.

Your plates were picked up on traffic cameras by the Style-Police.










Plus you displayed them in an international publication. 😉
Nigel Atkins

Nigel only just in the 60s - first available in 1968. 'orrible things.
David Smith

Thanks David.

In 1968 no one on the street I lived owned a car, the Rediffusion man had a van and that was it, can't remember what plates were on it. Someone once parked the Batmobile model yank drop-top in the next street and it literally took up half the road width. I don't think I'd even heard of MG until 1977 when a mate of a mate took me out in his sportacar (he'd indulgent and over compensating adoptive parents) and that turned out to be a Midget 1500, it seemed so quick compared to the old bangers i'd had and knew (now mostly called classics and severely overpriced).

Reflective plates must have been fitted retrospectively though, probably for safety and to make the car appear younger or more modern.

The yellow number plate suits most paint colours much better than the flat-black, but not many have my flair for styling.

I really like the the black plastic individual characters on the yellow and white reflective plates, and just having them clean and shiny makes my Midget look cleaner (which it aint).
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
You people must have been poor! I bought a 1966 mk3 Sprite at auction in 1972 when I was 19 - no parental help. You could get them quite cheaply. I remember an E type in the same auction which, had I been able to insure it, I could have bought for cash. Of course I then spent every weekend working on the Sprite to keep it going......

It had wires btw - I still have the copper mallet.
Bill Bretherton

Bill,
the people were poorish but not that poor, cars weren't needed as most worked at the two big places down the road in the town.

I was very lucky to have a welfare State look after me which is why I don't begrudge paying fair taxes and wish more recent Governments were more benevolent.

My first car in 1977 (remember I'm younger than almost all here) cost £30 (before I passed my test), never would I have thought of buying a sportscar which would have been a Spitfire as I'd no idea what a MG was we never saw sportscars in the places I lived, not even nicked or joy ridden.

Can't remember how much my second car cost that followed weeks after but bangers you'd go to £50, you'd want a very good banger for a £100, over that was just showing off and a bit risky to leave parked on the street.

One day I saw a newish Rover P6 V8 and said when I win the pools I'll have one of those, never won the pools but did have a 3500S about 17 years ago.
Nigel Atkins

Hi Nigel - I've been doing exactly what you said - tap open, flaps open, quarterlights open for sucking air out chamois etc. However I haven't yet fitted windscreen wipers to the inside of the windscreen.

The ram effect is OK and I've also removed the impeller to allow a free flow of air and blocked the hole until the motor arrives. Maybe the thin South African blood and the fact that cast iron lumps take longer than modern car's aluminium ones to warm up means I really want to be warm while stationary. My previous Midget had a working fan and with the footwell flaps closed it did a much better job at demisting in stop start traffic. The heater knob has an ingenious if crude system of preventing one from turning on the motor when the inflow flap is closed. I like the Heath Robinson thinking so I want it to work.

The Minors had a control for the cylinder head tap/valve which meant you could open it from inside - ultimate luxury. I've got one somewhere from a joblot of parts but the idea of having to stop the car and open the bonnet to turn the heater on is just so wonderfully ridiculous that I won't fit it.

The flap actually seals off the air from the motor completely and allows no air to pass to the heater matrix before being diverted either up or down to the footwell. So if the flap is closed the motor will be under extra load.

Oh and btw we bench tested the motor and checked the electrical continuity so we know its the motor.

I'm nervous about provoking a discussion on what is a tap or a valve or a flap or a fan which is an impeller. 😁🤔


Brendon (silver number plates) Le Page
B M Le Page

I forgot to mention the main reason for changing to steels is because the splines are worn. One day I'm going to brake hard and the splines will strip and the wheels will just spin and you can visit me in A&E or the mortuary.

Hubs alone are £80 each and the wheel splines might also be worn. So I don't have a choice really as I already have all the bits I need from a parts car.

Brendon
B M Le Page

Brendon,
I'm not sure what you mean by blocking the hole and I'm not sure removing the impeller makes much if any difference, does it just windmill(?) when not powered, I've no idea.

The heater box isn't sealed as the windscreen vents are permanently open so air can go in and out I'm not sure it puts that much extra strain on the motor with the fresh air flap is closed - I'll tell you for sure later today. For 13 winters I've had a seperate aftermarket switch for the heater motor and I've tried closing the fresh-air flap with the motor running to see if the heaterbox would explode and it hasn't. As I put I always (unless following a VAG diesel) have the fresh air flap fully open so have done no extended experiment with leaving the heater motor running with the fresh air flap closed.

I find these engines warm up and loose heat quite quickly but I gain on warm up by not having an engine fan fitted for the last 12 years.

I thought about fitting a Mini heater cable control but was told the modern ones leak and I only normally turn the heater tap on or off twice a year.

Another thought, although you might also have this covered as you seem a decent sort (apart from your silver plates) have you got the fresh air trunking fully fitted and correctly at the rad grille end as many have it just pushed through the first panel and not located on the second so the air coming in could bounce around there and miss the full opening of the trunking, see photos.

I'm not sure the combined fresh air flap (debate valve) cable and heater blower switch was ingenious or more a catch up for an overlooked hole in the dash. Modern cars have a recirculating setting with fans on, at all speeds IIRC.



Nigel Atkins

Brendon,
just for you, during a not uneventful use of the Midget, I had the opportunity to close off the fresh air flap and at the same time turn on the heater blower from the separate aftermarket switch, twice, once while driving along and then when parked up on return home.

The bonnet might have lifted or bulged a bit, but that might have just been my wonky eye, the motor sounded a bit noiser and I also discovered the heater tap wasn't fully closed as there was still warm air being blown, even with the fresh air flap fully closed.

I only left the blower motor, which is an uprated motor, running for about a minute each time but no explosion of the heater box either time.

I can leave it running a lot longer if you want, I've always got plenty of battery power, how long do you think it'd need before I need to stop before burning the motor out or the heater box exploding?

Should I run a book on the time it takes, or battery running out?
Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 10/04/2021 and 13/04/2021

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

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