MG-Cars.com
MG Midget and Sprite Technical Wiring in an ammeter in a frogeye BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
MG-Cars.net
Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.
Recommendations
Parts
MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.
|
|
MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wiring in an ammeter in a frogeye
| I want to fit an ammeter in the dashboard of my frogeye sprite but am not sure of how to make the best connection to the wiring loom. Can anyone give any advice please. |
| P J Dent |
Mine is wired in series in the brown wire from the battery to the voltage regulator and it works fine. The Lucas ammeter had been fitted, looking at its design, in the 60's,although the wiring was rather poor. I got Autosparks to slightly modify a new loom when I rebuilt the car a few years ago. |
| Bob Beaumont |
| Do you have a dynamo or alternator fitted? |
| Richard Wale |
| Why fit an ampmeter it is a point of failure if all the current is going through it especially if you have an alternator. A voltmeter is a better option but maybe that is too sensible as if you want an ampmeter why not it's Friday after all! |
| Eddie Cairns |
| Be sure to fit a battery isolator switch and keep a fire extinguisher handy ;o) |
| Dave O'Neill2 |
| I'm not sure where you would intercept the power line in the loom but I do know that Dave is right! I fitted an ammeter and had nothing but aggro with the wiring. I pulled it out after a month. I fitted a 100A fuse in the line and had to change it a few times. Had I not fitted it, my car may have been reduced to ashes. The problem is, every bit of current being used by the car (bar the starter motor) needs to go through the ammeter at all times and if there's an issue with the ammeter, the wiring or the connections you lose everything, sometimes quite literally. There's a nasty risk of fire if anything in that line shorts out. I'm fairly sure the same would apply whether it's a +ve or -ve earthed car. As mentioned above, far better to fit a voltmeter and wire it to the battery terminal at the fusebox to monitor your battery and charging circuit. It's easier to fit and far less risk. |
| Bob T |
| Ammeters need to be taken very seriously, theses can get dangerous fast even if hooked up correctly....dont take this mod lightly or make any guesses...sorry I dont know how to wire it up What id recommened would be to wire in an altenator and use a volt meter...much simpler better performance and much safer An ammeter is only good for dynos/generators because the alt produces alot of power faster and with only 500 to 800 rpms while the dyno needs around 1500 rpms iirc thats why a ammeter with dyno will show needle swing but wont with an alt Anyway...i hope you listen to this forum, many here know alot about what is being mentioned and.have many decades of age and rust on there old bones If you do decide to persue this... make sureyou have an ABC fire extingisher a battry isolator switch mentioned above and most importantly a smartphone to video the electrical fire so we (the bbs) can Kick back and enjoy with big bowl of popcorn and warm beer....hahaha Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Ammeters need to be taken very seriously, theses can get dangerous fast even if hooked up correctly....dont take this mod lightly or make any guesses...sorry I dont know how to wire it up What id recommened would be to wire in an alt and use a volt meter...much simpler better performance and much safer An ammeter is only good for dynos/generators because the alt produces alot of power faster and with only 500 to 800 rpms while the dyno needs around 1500 rpms iirc thats why a ammeter with dyno will show needle swing but wont with an alt Anyway...i hope you listen to this forum, many here know alot about what is being mentioned and.have many decades of age and rust on there old bones If you do decide to persue this... make sureyou have an ABC fire extingisher a battry isolator switch mentioned above and most importantly a smartphone to video the electrical fire so we (the bbs) can Kick back and enjoy with big bowl of popcorn and warm beer....hahaha Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| Can someone explain to me how you manage to blow a 100A fuse in a Spridget, -- before the loom melts? Ammeters are perfectly safe. What exactly do you think is going to happen? Why is it likely to fail? Do you know exactly how they work? They're no more dangerous than a toffee wrapper. Only a few mA actually flows in the meter, the rest flows in the shunt, which has very little resistive effect on the rest of the circuit. It's designed that way, because otherwise, being connected in series, it would alter the very measurement you are trying to make. Get an ohmmeter, and measure the resistance through an ammeter. You simply cut into an insulated wire, and connect an insulated device in between the two ends you've just made. The terminals are designed to make low resistance connections. Why should they fail? Why are they more likely to fail because you have an ammeter than a dynamo? I've had an ammeter in most cars I've owned and the one in my Sprite has been there for over 30 years. It tells me when the bat is being charged or being drained. It's just as useful as a voltmeter. Volts don't flow into or from the battery, current does. It doesn't matter if you have a dynamo or an alternator, it's still current(electrons) that charges the battery, and an ammeter lets you read directly how much is flowing, and in what direction. Nothing wrong with voltmeters, and there's nothing wrong with having an ammeter either. So if you want to fit one Pete, do as Bob B described in your first answer to this thread. That's exactly how mine is wired. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Thank you for your interesting replies, and I will connect up as advised by Bob. I am running a standard dynamo, and the ammeter is an original unit from an early sprite so it looks pretty good in the dashboard to the left of the ignition. Many thanks again...Phil |
| P J Dent |
| Like Lawrence I have had an ammeter on my Frogeye, with dynamo, for many years. About 43 years. Why all the doom and gloom over an excellent instrument. Fit it properly and it should give benefit not problem. Alan www.masckent.org |
| Alan Anstead |
| I think the answer is in Alan's post "fit it properly". Having seen DIY wiring in lots of cars I'd also advise against fitting one. If however you're confident in your abilities there shouldn't be a problem. The potential issues fall into 2 categories, not having sufficiently good connections or cable able to take the current, this will result in either loss of all power or the connection/cable heating up. The second is that the cables have to pass through the bulkhead, this is a potential point for the cable to fray and short to the body, you must of course use grommets. If this happens you have a large cable connected directly to the battery with no fuse shorting to earth. The result would be a very hot cable very quickly. Additionally, the failure rate of any system is proportional to the number components and joints, all other things being equal, this means the more components and joints in a system the greater chance it has of failing. Bob |
| R.A Davis |
| "Can someone explain to me how you manage to blow a 100A fuse in a Spridget," When you switch the microwave and the watercooker on at the same time??? LOL!! |
| Arie de Best |
| Hi, Most vehicles up to the late 50's all had ammeters as OE equipment and very rarely caused any problems, it was only the increased output from the alternator, together with much improved reliably of the charging systems that caused them to fall out of favour with manufacturers. As others have said, a quality ammeter, properly installed with the right size cable is a good thing to have in an older car. |
| SR Smith 1 |
| "a quality ammeter, properly installed with the right size cable is a good thing to have in an older car." Absolutely, and irrespective of an ammeter being more or less useful than a voltmeter(I personally prefer an ammeter), which is also not strictly needed either, since you have a charge warning lamp, -- let's not con people into thinking that fitting and connecting an ammeter is rocket science. It's not. It's basic secondary school-boy stuff, and any adult can learn how to do it. As for large cables being needed, the extended cable into the area behind the dashboard, need only be the same size as the wire in the loom. The additional resistance added by the less than a meter length required, is negligible. An ammeter is a pretty simple device. Fitting one requires no more thought than changing your track rod ends, which have to be installed properly or you might die. If you are intelligent enough to do that safely, why wouldn't you be intelligent enough to fit an ammeter safely? Too many connections? Extra connections are potential points of failure? Not if connected properly. And there are ony 4 anyway. If you're really worried, and solder the connections at the loom, then there are only two extra connections, both made into properly designed terminals. Worried about 30A passing through and flowing behind your dashboard? How about 100 or 200A flowing and passing through metal trunking in shops and offices? Of course you insulate and use gromets or bushes. What else would you do? All the cables passing through to the area behind the dashboard should be through a bush or gromet of some kind, or use double insulated cable and smooth the edges of the hole you use/cut. Ever given any thought to the 30A junction boxes under your wooden floor boards at home? Loads of connections there. You probably don't even know how many you have or where they are. Are you losing sleep over it? 12/14 volts and nobody is worried. Mention 30 amps and some people start to panic and or exagerate. I often see the word electrickery used here. No wonder people panic if they think that electrical principles are so difficult as to be a mystery and some kind of dark magic. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Must be a full moon tonight. Twice I agree with Lawrence ! Best we don't mention what tools to use when actually fitting the ammeter or this lucky run may end. Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| Im no electrician, but what happens if the circuit looses ground due to mositure and rust and the ammeter is metal on metal contact Im guessing that falls under proper installation Not to be mean or cruel... but the fact that the orginal question was asked... should your confidance be relyed upon. Remeber....no guessing on this mod. Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| P J, if you want to do it fair enough but in these days of excellent car batteries I'm not sure the need is there even with a dynamo unless you've got a lot of add on electric items |
| Nigel Atkins |
| An ammeter is a handy diagnostic tool that is more "in your face" than an ignition warning lamp that can easily be overlooked. Alan. |
| Alan Anstead |
| Alan ia right, its because of my voltmeter(sorry guys) being realy low I figured my alternator was dead while on holiday in the Brecon Becons in Wales. Knowing this I kept the engine running and didnt switch it off till I found a garage who could suply me a new one. Would other wise ended up somewhere with a car that would start anymore and a flat battery! Especialy in daylight the red light is easy overlooked. |
| Arie de Best |
| My ignition warning light has been going off as expected..... but the battery hasn't been charging! I could prove that when I temporarilly linked in an ammeter. |
| G Williams (Graeme) |
| how often do you chaps let your cars go wrong :) as for diagnostics tool, at home a multimeter or bulb on wires is enough surely if you have a good battery if I hadn't left my headlights on (don't ask) I'd have made a weekend in Belguim on battery power (instead of getting a very costly new alternator) Arie, you couldn't find any slopes to bump start the car in the Brecon Beacons, you must have been holidaying in a different part to the ones I visit :) everyone can put in whatever dials they like Prop can advise if you think you might be missing out on any |
| Nigel Atkins |
| "but what happens if the circuit looses ground due to mositure and rust and the ammeter is metal on metal contact" Prop, I hate to tell you this, but that question makes no sense at all. Let's take this part. "if the circuit looses ground due to mositure and rust" On a car, there isn't really a ground, there is a return 'called' a ground. It's more accurately a neutral or negative. The ammeter is, in the case we are discussing, connected in series with the conductor supplying all the circuits. Follow any of those circuits to the end of it. It will travel through whatever device it is connected to (say a rear light for example) and the other side of the device is connected to "ground" (negative), which is connected ultimately, to the negative terminal on the battery. So the answer to "if the circuit looses ground due to mositure and rust" is, the circuit will be open and the current will cease to flow. It won't matter if you have an ammeter or continous length of cable connected, the result would be the same, open circuit. Let's take the 2nd part. "and the ammeter is metal on metal contact" Well the ammeter as a whole, IS connected metal to metal, because it's mounted in the metal dashboard. Just like a volt meter or a fuel gauge is. The electrical connections to the meter movement of the ammeter and shunt though, are not connected to the dashboard. They are "insulated" from it. Hi Alan. Right tools? Of course. You know me. :). I cut the hole in my dashboard with a hammer and screwdriver(it was sharpened of course). And I smoothed the cable hole through the bulkhead with cardboard held in place with bubble gum. I had that to hand, whereas a grommet would have meant a trip to the shops and the spending of money. LOL. I figure when I scrap my Sprite, I can re-chew all the bubble gum again. :). |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence Superb! Alan |
| Alan Anstead |
| Alan, thanks. Forces unite against the doomsters lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| No-one said an ammeter is impossible, just that a voltmeter is easier, less risk and does a similar job. Of course you pays your money and takes your choice. My choice was a voltmeter but if you want period mods and modify a loom to run an ammeter with the right insulation, that's a little more work but another choice. As always, its your car, all things are possible, its up to you! In any case, either is more informative than a simple warning light. |
| Bob T |
| Lawrence "Extra connections are potential points of failure? Not if connected properly" Every additional component and connection is a potential point of failure, even if the connections are properly made. Making the connections properly and using good quality, correctly specified parts will minimize potential points of failure but they will always add to the possible points of failure "Ever given any thought to the 30A junction boxes under your wooden floor boards at home?" Hopefully these were installed by a competent electrician and in any case it will be protected be a fuse or breaker that will trip before the cable exceeds its maximum capacity. If however the ammeter cable should short to the body it's not protected by a fuse and would have the capability of passing a massive current prior to something burning out. "Mention 30 amps and some people start to panic and or exaggerate" If it were only 30A it wouldn't be that much of a problem, I'm not sure what a battery would be capable of delivering in the event of a short to ground but I suspect it would be several hundred amps. I will agree that dynamo charging systems at best are marginal and having something that indicates whether the dynamo is keeping up with the vehicles requirements would be useful. I still believe that unless you are competent you may end up causing more problems than you solve. Bob |
| R.A Davis |
| ammeter, voltmeter, fine the choice is there - but the car has lasted over 50 years without either, if the dynamo, wiring, connections, warning light and holder, etc. are sound and now we have better batteries then it's surely a want rather than need |
| Nigel Atkins |
| Wow! This is one of the best posts Ive seen since Lawrences dream vacation! I cant belive I missed it! I feel like I got to the field after the battle was over! I say "hoooray!" for the amp meter guys! The voltage gage is ok but I would rather have the amp gage to check the current flow! Besides you already have an idiot light telling you if its charging! Why do all those do it yourself guides always make it sound so scary to do? Yes I consider it a want but is a good diagnostic tool right on the dash that will save you time if you understand what its telling you! I always looked at cars as a series of little devices all put together to get you down the road! Awesome when they are all working correctly! Put it in and enjoy! |
| Steven Devine |
| I am new to this site and it has been very educational, and helpful to see the amount of discussion my simple question generated! When I bought my first frogeye, in 1968, it already had an ammeter fitted, and I can remember it being a very useful instrument to have. So of course I thought it would be a good idea to put one in the frogeye that I am rebuilding. All the discussion has been extremely useful as it has made me think even more carefully about what I am doing. As the connections to the ammeter are live, I will take special care in making well insulated connections, selecting the appropriate size of wire connection, and making sure the wires are carefully protected where they pass through the bulkhead. Hopefully it will all turn out ok and the ammeter which is pretty old, doesn't let me down. Many thanks to all. Phil ps Just to say that I have just put in a remote clutch slave cylinder bleeding arrangement, as promoted I think by Alan elsewhere. What a brilliant improvement that is...thanks Alan |
| P J Dent |
| The ammeter on my Frog is about the only original component that hasn't needed changing or fixing in any way.42 years and 100% reliability. |
| F Pollock |
| Nobody is suggesting that an ammeter be installed in such a way as to be likely to cause a problem. And installing them is "EASY", capital letter, underlined in bold, 36 point face. :). "voltmeter is easier, less risk and does a similar job." ----- It does a different job, and an ammeter is no more risk than a voltmeter. "Every additional component and connection is a potential point of failure," What a meaingless statement. I could say, that every meal you eat has the potential for a portion of it to get stuck in your throat and choke you to death. Or every road you cross is a potential threat to your life, because you might not see the car that kills you. If joined properly, it doesn't matter how many connections you make, the resistance is negligable, and the connections extremely unlikely, as to be -- not going to happen -- to fail. That's the point of using decent connections. It doesn't matter who installed the 30A JB's under the floor, as long as they were installed properly. But they are FAR more likely to cause a problem than an ammeter in a car is. The JB under your wooden floor, is inaccessable without pulling up your carpets and floor boards. Over time, the terminals can potentially losen off. Poor connections can cause sparking and eventually your house can burn down. But is there a regulation to remove them all? Nope. Is there a regulation to make them accessible yes, but do you know where yours are and how many there are? No, unless you installed them yourself. Do you lie in bed at night thinking about the potential risk of fire? No. So why all the scare stories about an accesible device behind a metal car dashboard? People are worried about unfused wires passing through the bulkhead, and by some mysterious act of god, rubbing all the insulation off, working through the grommet, and shorting to the car body, are they? How much current does the unfused wire passing through the bulkhead, feeding the ignition switch carry? It feeds a number of other circuits. What size cable is that? Potential to short out there. Better put a fuse in that cable quick. "I still believe that unless you are competent you may end up causing more problems than you solve." I would describe that as being patronising in the extreme. Are you saying that only an auto electrician should work on the car wiring? Are you saying only an apprentice trained mechanic should work on the engine, steering, etc? What's competent? ANYBODY, with reasonable intelligence can understand what's required to install an ammeter in a car, and not have a problem doing it. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| cor. I've got both. Which is good, because my voltmeter lies like a cheap rug. |
| Rob Armstrong |
| Rob, how accurate is your ammeter? ;o) |
| Dave O'Neill2 |
| I guess the crux of the matter is what is deemed as "competent" . I say again, a quality ammeter, correctly installed with suitable cabling is perfectly safe. For god's sake we're talking about cars here where the headlamps weren't even protected by fuses from the frogeyes right up to last 1500's! |
| SR Smith 1 |
| "my voltmeter lies like a cheap rug." That sounds like a line from a gangster movie. lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| So what does this discussion have to do with wheel bearings....there has to be a connection somewhere Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| More connections is a bad thing Prop ;) ;P my ammeter agrees with the digital voltmeter :) |
| Rob Armstrong |
| You've just made the connection, by asking the question Prop. :) I hope you were competent to ask. lol. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence I think you're missing a few points "Every additional component and connection is a potential point of failure," What a meaingless statement" You seem to have difficulty understanding things so I'll try to put it simply. If you don't have an item fitted it can't fail, if on the other hand you fit an additional item it has the possibility of failing. All items mechanical or electrical have the possibility of failing, this can be because of wear, manufacturing defect or operating outside its specification. The more components you have in a system (car, plane, TV or fridge etc) the chance of one of them failing increases. If as is the case here the additional item provides useful information, the small additional risk of a failure is deemed acceptable. On a recent trip a friend found when he came to start his car the battery appeared dead, I traced this to a poor connection on the battery isolator. If this hadn't been fitted he wouldn't have had this problem. He may have had other problems by not being able to isolate the battery but he wouldn't have had this one. At this point I expect you to go off at a tangent and suggest in that case we should strip our cars to the bare minimum, if you do you'll have missed the point again. "I still believe that unless you are competent you may end up causing more problems than you solve." I would describe that as being patronising in the extreme" I was trying to be diplomatic when I wrote this and I'm not sure why you object to this. Would you allow someone to work on your car if they weren't competent? Are you suggesting anyone regardless of their abilities should be encouraged to undertake any job? I don't think it's being patronising I think it's common sense. If you've never had to repair or diagnose poorly installed electrical equipment you're lucky. Some I've seen include, wires twisted together and wrapped in tape, wires run through inappropriate places, like under carpets where they eventually get worn out, accessories connected to inappropriate circuits causing strange problems or blowing fuses. I'm sure all the people that did these would have considered themselves competent, plainly that wasn't the case. |
| R.A Davis |
| I think the issue regarding "competence" here is that individuals who are familiar with the technology involved (in this case car electrics) can loose sight of the inability of some people to understand issues and yet still have (an unjustified) confidence in their own abilities. I wonder how many would try to wire an ammeter across the battery terminals? Quite a lot I would wager. How many would just twist the wire ends together with a bit of tape? And so on. I regularly look at my car and come across something which a PO has done and can't believe it was done like that. A useful reality check! My uncle once wired an extension lead with a plug top on each end. He noticed when he picked up the plug having connected up the other end. It is recorded that in the ambulance on the way to casualty he remarked to the driver "Is that an ammeter? I want to fit one of those". I just hope it isn't hereditary. |
| G Williams (Graeme) |
| LOLOLOL. No problem RA Davis, you're very simple, and I understand you quite easily. I understand that you're prone to exagerating every "potential" risk, into a real and present danger. "I traced this to a poor connection on the battery isolator. If this hadn't been fitted he wouldn't have had this problem." No. Having an isolator wasn't the problem. If he had fitted it properly, and or had used a decent isolator, it wouldn't have caused a problem. I've had the same isolator on my car, for the same amount of time I've had the ammeter. Just because one person fails at a task, isn't evidence that all will have the same problem. "Would you allow someone to work on your car if they weren't competent? Are you suggesting anyone regardless of their abilities should be encouraged to undertake any job?" ---- No. I wouldn't allow 'ANYONE' to work on my car, regardless of their competence. When the day comes that I have to, it'll be time to get rid of it. And yes, I DO encourage anyone, regardless of their abilities, to try anything. It's a great way to learn and improve ones abilities. All you need is decent instruction and encouragement, as opposed to some of the discouraging nonsense that appears from time to time, such as; -- "unless you are competent you may end up causing more problems than you solve". "If you've never had to repair or diagnose poorly installed electrical equipment you're lucky" Really? Why lucky?, It's not difficult. Quite enjoyable actually. "Some I've seen include, wires twisted together and wrapped in tape, wires run through inappropriate places, like under carpets -- " LOL. Have you been sneaking around my car then? 12V, low current, yup I've twisted wires together, 'and' wrapped tape around them, 'and' run them under my carpets. Very small potential risk, vs the REALITY. 35 years, no fires, and no failures. You seem to be one of those people for whom life is a struggle and fraught with difficulty and potential danger. You sound to me like someone whose been fed a diet of HSE. Me, I refused to eat it. lol. As I said. ANYONE with reasonable intelligence is capable of understanding how to install an ammeter without setting fire to their car. All they need is to be told how. NOT told, be careful, it's too dangerous, better not do it. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| Lawrence, I understand where you are coming from. Sometimes I wish I had your confidence as I find when I try an unfamiliar job I usually succeed as long as I have prepared properly i.e. good research, good instructions and reasonable tools. Before I retired I had a couple of favourite sayings that I am sure bored my younger colleagues and seem even more relevant now. "you lot manage risks by never taking any" and "the most dangerous people are those that don't know that they don't know" i.e. the super confident with no basis for such confidence |
| Ray Rowsell |
| "you lot manage risks by never taking any" :). Ray, I'm gonna steal that. Confidence? Everythings possible when you know how. If you don't know how, you ask or research, just as you said. Research may involve just getting stuck in and having a go. This thread started with an eminently sensible question. Bob B answered immediately. If PJ needed more assistance I'm sure he would have asked, but before he could ask, he was given a load of advice about it being dangerous, and not worth the trouble anyway. Now my reading of the original question, suggested that PJ had no intention of connecting the ammeter across the battery terminals. He was just doing a bit of research to confirm his thoughts it seemed to me. And that to me, demonstrated competence. Not that I was judging him anyway. I wouldn't be so presumptuous. Competence is the ability to do a job properly. You don't need super intelligence or special traing, or a degree to tackle many tasks competently. One of which being installing an ammeter. Of course the opposite of competence, is incompetence, ineptitude. Is anyone seriously saying that someone who doesn't measure up to some arbitrary standard of competance is inept? A lot of very able people post on this bbs, about a great many things that they have accomplished. Not all have degrees in engineering, physics, or any science related subject. And yet they are in some cases rebuilding Spridgets from the ground up. Clearly when starting out, they might not have known how to do something. But because they possess a brain, they are able to discover how to do all manner of things, which by the standards set by some people, they would not be judged competent to do. Electrical theory is no mystery -- anymore. We don't live 150 years ago. It's only difficult for some people, because it seems to me, they have been told too often to be careful and leave well alone. Hence they've been put off learning just how simple it really is. You don't have to understand much in the way of electrical theory to connect an ammeter. Mostly it's a mechanical task, and most people here seem to do pretty well at that. So why assume they don't have the nouse to fit an ammeter in such a way as to not set fire to their car? |
| Lawrence Slater |
| I was brought up in an age of "try it, have a go". Certainly that was my parents' attitude. Sadly, in more recent times we are constantly advised (told!!) "you can't do that. "You have not been trained to do that". I suspect some of that mantra has stuck to me! Sometimes, the best training is to "have a go" but, certainly, in most working environments, that is not allowed. I am not suggesting recklessly trying anything but most of us have the ability / judgement to recognise when we are getting out of our depth. Sadly, some don't have that ability so we all have to abide by rules and laws that recognise that reality. |
| Ray Rowsell |
| I think the crux of this thread breaks down to this We all have opinions and many of us know our own abilitis, I think we are offering or personal thoughts based.on our own experiances and what Is an acceptable risk...which obviously is going to be differant then someone elses In the end ... I think its a very health thing for this debate as it gives multiple thoughts and ideas to explore When all is said and done, no doulbt, he will agree.with me....the ammeter is a bad idea..hahahaha. (just kidding) But in all seriousness I hope he persues this little mod, as long as he feels comfortable doing this...there are alot of mods I made that I probably shouldnt have tried... some worked, other fell down badly Prop |
| Prop and the Blackhole Midget |
| I am spending a lot of time "correcting" issues which were created by the PO-1 who carried out the rebuild of my car. I am not a perfectionist and I am not looking for "concours", just a safe reliable car. I am regularly at a loss when I see what has been done by someone who isn't new to such things but obviously never read the manual. Not bodges, just lack of understanding. It has however coloured my opinion on the "average" enthusiast's ability to do things correctly. This thread seems to have materialised into a debate about whether Joe Bloggs can wire in an ammeter safely and reliably. Out of 10 Joes, I bet two or three can't (but all ten think they can!) |
| G Williams (Graeme) |
| Graeme, You also have experience of this favourite of mine "the most dangerous people are those that don't know that they don't know" i.e. the super confident with no basis for such confidence |
| Ray Rowsell |
| " --- about whether Joe Bloggs can wire in an ammeter safely and reliably. Out of 10 Joes, I bet two or three can't (but all ten think they can!)". Maybe, maybe not. And I've never said there aren't some completely thick people out there, who can barely tie their shoe laces. But the point is, that most people aren't thick. With a bit of encouragement and sensible answers to their questions, or dilligent research on their part, anyone with reasonable intelligence can install and wire in an ammeter. I'd say this thread is as much about an irrational attitude to electrics on the part of some people, as it is about ammeters. I keep saying, and I'll keep saying, basic electrical wiring, including installing an ammeter, is schoolboy childs play. I'm no brain of Britain, far from it. And yet at the age of 14/15, I understood what voltage was and what current was, sufficiently well enough to fix my scalextrix, my train set, the dynamo and lighting on my bike, and replace the pull switch on my bedroom ceiling that I'd pulled too hard once too often. -- 240V and I didn't kill myself or burn the house down. If someone had asked me to wire in an ammeter, I could have done it without setting fire to the car. How did I manage all this? I read books, and I also had an uncle, who instead of telling me not to go near electricity when I asked him, gave me answers instead. So if you have knowledge that someone else might be able to use, instead of telling them they must first be competent, give them your knowledge, and then they will be competent. |
| Lawrence Slater |
| .... but the problem is about those who don't ask questions or conduct diligent research. Why is my speedo where the rev counter should be? Why was a brand new speedo purchased to suit a 3.9 diff and then a 4.2 diff fitted? Why were the fwb inserted the wrong way round? Why were the lower wishbone fulcrums the wrong way round? Why did the half shafts engage into the diff by only 1/4"? Why don't the wipers self park? Why was the brake pedal clevis pin half the diameter of the correct pin? Why were the dynamo cables reversed? All of these could just as easily done correctly as incorrectly if a bit of questioning/ diligent research taken place. It ain't rocket science. But the experience of working down the list does colour your judgement! (All the above corrected btw except speedo/rev counter positions). |
| G Williams (Graeme) |
| And, Why did you buy this particular car? -Lack of research, or asking the right questions? Or maybe you just wanted something to do? ;-) |
| Guy W |
| always easier with hindsight but the speedo and rev counter swopping positions would put me on alert, but that maybe just a single simple mistake on an otherwise great car it has been know for those using their intuition, rather than referencing a book, to fit front sidelight units the other way round to original - does that meant this is one of many mistakes or 'preferences', possibly, possibly not ;) |
| Nigel Atkins |
| As a large percentage of the issues were not apparent without a strip down I was unaware. But it had a Heritage shell and 3000 mile commercially rebuilt engine which I though were important benefits. Compared to that,the speedo/revcounter issue I thought was not that significant. Mechanical things I can sort, but don't have the space or skill to tackle bodywork. As regards questions I didn't think to ask whether the po-1 had fitted the wheel bearings the wrong way round. Silly me! But for all that I have learned a lot more about the cars by sorting the problems! Including the fact that if there is a "right way" and "wrong way" for something to have been done, the odds are on the latter! |
| G Williams (Graeme) |
| I was teasing, Graeme. Just adding another "Why" to your long list! It wasn't a serious question. ;-) |
| Guy W |
| "but the problem is about those who don't ask questions or conduct diligent research." That's not a problem. They usually end up getting someone else to fix it for them, hence adding to the wealth of the economy, and the mirth on bbs such as this one. :). |
| Lawrence Slater |
| No offence taken Guy! I think the best way to make the right decision about a car is to have previously owned one for a couple of years and got your hands dirty. The experience you gain from that is invaluable! I decided to keep going on this car because it is relatively easily sorted. But I think it probably shows that I get very frustrated when I find things done wrong because it wasn't checked out how to do it right! It doesn't have an ammeter, but if it did it would be connected across the live and earth terminals! Which is where we came in and hopefuly gets us back on thread.... unless you want to raise the issue of front wheel bearings! |
| G Williams (Graeme) |
| "-- unless you want to raise the issue of front wheel bearings!" LOL. Prop already did. 03 June 2013 at 06:24:04 UK time |
| Lawrence Slater |
This thread was discussed between 31/05/2013 and 06/06/2013
MG Midget and Sprite Technical index
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.