MG Midget and Sprite Technical Wiring Loom BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net

MG Midget and Sprite Technical - Wiring Loom

Considering whether to make up my own wiring loom for my Frogeye Sprite. They are pretty basic, simpler than the later cars so it shouldn't be difficult. Its really only a matter of scaling up and converting a schematic layout to a real life arrangement and then soldering on the relevant connectors. Anyone tried this? Who would be a good supplier of decent quality connectors and cable in the correct colours?

GuyW

I have made up a couple of looms for some military vehicles and it wasn't too difficult but then the vehicles were pretty basic even compared to our cars, (no turn signals or the like) and the harness used metal tags to identify the circuits as the wiring is all one colour. For things like the lights, gauges and other things on the extremities I started at the dash and ran the wires out to the ending point to get the correct lengths. Once it was in place and re-tested, I used zip ties to hold it together, removed it, taped it and then refitted it. There is proper wire harness tape you can get as opposed to using the black electrical tape which can become sticky from the adhesive. More of a PITA than anything but finding the many colours in the sizes you need might be the hard part. Don't some of the big parts places carry reproduction harnesses and there used to be a place in the US that could make up show quality harnesses for any car provided they had a diagram. Just an idea. The thing about doing it yourself though, is you save money and you can test each circuit as you go. When it comes time to re-test everything, I used a large lantern battery. Very low power and less chance of the smoke escaping from the wires. Clare

Clare Ravenwood

Guy I would be very tempted to buy a readymade Autosparks one - http://www.autosparks.co.uk/finder (A H Spares stock these looms too). They do a MKI Austin Healey Sprite loom in RHD starting at £184, with the ability to add on extras e.g. Alternator wiring at ordering. Also do a LHD version. Got one of their MKII Sprite looms and very happy with the quality of components, manufacture and fit - a direct replacement. Hardly worth the effort making one, and maybe not much cheaper if at all. If you want to price up wire and components start with Vehicle Wiring Products: https://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu Plus Holden for fuse box etc: https://www.holden.co.uk If building your own loom, will you go for original Lucas bullet connectors, or something else, and have you the correct tools? Cheers Mike

M Wood

Vote for Autosparks. I had to replace the loom as it was all cut about when the car was vandalised. It fitted very well and they also ran in some extra wiring for the fuel pump. The only thing i didn't like was the bulb holders for the high beam and ignition and I replaced those with some old originals.

Bob Beaumont

My plan was to get a newer land roverloom cuz UK wireing code is very consistant across all brands and over many generations Then cut off the extra wires i dont need what i dont need ... tack it all down to a sheet of plywood and lay the old loom over the top as a templete and cut lengrh ... for connection i was going to use modern day as there easy enough to source ... but moss motors has a large supple of the orginal looking connectors.... quality ? I dont know But that was always my plan that siad, As you mentioned its a really simple system ... source it out to a pro, something like that many times you cant even purchase the wire for what they will charge you to make a new loom, ...google is your friend, at least look into it.... there used to be 2 companys in the uk that did this and we talked about them from time to time on this bbs about 12 to 15 years ago Prop

1 Paper

For clarification - I know I can buy a complete new one, though £185 seems a lot for a few metres of wire and a couple of handfulls of connectors! I just quite liked the logic of building my own! But maybe time could be better spent. The biggest problem of making my own would be the covering which on a MK 1 should be that nice hound's tooth fabric. I don't see any way I could replicate that and a plastic wound loom would just spoil the look of it on a Frogeye. Thanks for the links though, Mike and Bob

GuyW

I Love clairs nylon zip ties I dont use harness tape and as clair mentioned dont use electrical tape off the shelf ... nasty stuff over time I love just the zip ties fitted snuggle, NOT tight that will cause resistance in the wiring this way you can see all the wiring and is never hidden I usually like to fit a zip about every 3 to 6 inchs and measure it for Aesthetics and appearances and cut the excess of the tie off flush at its locking point By using a used land rover loom it will have all thw basic color codes you need and will be way longer then you need Prop

1 Paper

Guy, I use AES (Auto Electrical Supplies) for my cable, terminals etc. They do some nice fabric covered cables for old vehicles but probably a bit too old school for the Frog. They also have fabric tape for looms which is better than the PCV stuff. It's the type that modern cars have. You can get all the original type of connectors as well. If you are interested I may be able to supply you with some (free) heat shrink that looks a bit like a fabric covering, I used it on my Sprite and it does look quite good. I'll try and get a photo of it and post it later. I can get it in various sizes and you just use a heat gun (or blow torch if you are feeling a bit reckless!) to shrink it tightly onto the bunch of cables. I am fairly sure I am going to bite the bullet and buy a new loom for my Mk1 but I do have a very good original one. It looks pretty good in most respects apart from the fabric covering which has rotted. It's from a Californian car and is in amazing condition for 54 years old. Unfortunately because I'm a long way off needing it and budget might mean I have to reuse the old loom I can't really commit to selling it yet. I could let you borrow it if you need a decent example to work to though. I'll go and take a photo of the fabric style heat shrink etc.

John Payne

John, that's another useful contact for supplies. Looks slightly cheaper than VWP, though its probably six and two threes. I have just checked and there are 15 different colour codes used on a basic Frogeye harness. What is much harder to work out is the length of wire needed. Some of the colours are only a matter of a few inches whilst others run the full length of the car - plus a bit! Matching the fabric covering remains the doubtful bit though. If your Californian loom is sound, why not just re-wrap it with fresh fabric tape? Is this the heat shrink stuff you are referring to?

GuyW

Guy, That looks like Helagaine sleeving not heat shrink. Often sold as generic braided sleeving, it get pulled tight like a finger trap to close the sleeving down and the ends taped or covered in heat shrink to hold them in place.

David Billington

Quite right Bill. Its not heat shrink. I misread the description which refers to using heatshrink to secure and protect the ends from fraying.

GuyW

Guy, I'm not sure if this is a vague memory, or if I am just dreaming this stuff up, but I thought that the cloth covering could be put onto a custom wiring harness as a service. Maybe check with some of the suppliers and see if they do that or know who does? If Prop is right about modern Rovers etc. still using the same color codes, a junkyard harness should be a cheap way to get the proper wire. Since most cars will be much larger than a Sprite, there will likely be long enough wires to scrap out of it. Charley

C R Huff

Prop, I only used the zip ties to keep it together prior to taping otherwise I would have a spaghetti wiring harness. Also if a proper wiring harness is available, why would you go with something that doesn't belong to the car? I feel by jury rigging parts you just end up with a pile of problems further, and in some cases, literally, down the road. Factory original parts usually fit far better than aftermarket generic parts. Clare

Clare Ravenwood

Charley, I have several coat hangers festooned with different coloured cables collected from various scrapyard cars over the years.Volvos, being larger than your average Sprite, were a particularly good source with long lengths of wire being readily available. And my local breakers yard never charged for wiring, sound deadening felt, door seals or anything like that. Unfortunately the "proper" wire is becoming a rare commodity in the current intake of cars to the UK scrapyards. They all use skinny little cables that have a strange thin "wire" that is almost like strands of silk.

GuyW

The stuff I use is definitely heat shrink, though I know the other stuff you mean. I may well just re cover my existing loom Guy but having looked at a Frogeye under restoration recently I did think it looked fantastic having the patterned fabric cover. That said you can only see about 10% of the loom on a midget (even less than on a Frogeye) so it might be a bit of a waste of £200! Here is some of the fabric looking heat shrink I use, forgive the dodgy PCV tape and ty wrap, I must redo it with the fabric tape!

John Payne

Before shrinking:

John Payne

John, that same supplier does a nice looking black cotton tape with a rubber-adhesive backing which looks very smart in their photo. Now if they could supply something like that with a checked pattern to it . . . .!

GuyW

Clair Shove back fully recieved, Haha...I love you Prop

1 Paper

No shove back. It is that sometimes the work involved in fitting something from another vehicle just isn't worth the hassle and any related problems that might crop up. Love you too..(lol)

Clare Ravenwood

I had to make a wiring harness for my radio consel that holds 10 guages ... thats why i used the nylon zip ties as i had seen photos of air craft wiring and that how id seen it done Thw land rover wiring harness wqs not my idea, it was from a few years back someone suggested it when i was tring to figure out a solution for my rats nest prince of darkness mess I loved the idea and figured im doing that but rhe day never came for me Prop

1 Paper

Guy, I intend to make my own using AES parts, including cloth covering. I listed all cables needed via the wiring diagram, but haven't worked out the lengths yet. I'll do that by measuring directly on the car and cutting each cable longer than needed initially. I'll do the final cable trimming as I install the loom together with the terminations. I haven't decided on connector types yet, maybe not bullet connectors. I'm using an alternator so will leave out the control box wiring but will include relays for headlights and horn. AES don't supply every original wire colour so I'll compromise. I think it's easily worth it, I reckon well under £100. Of course, it appeals to me as I have an electrical background. Bill

W Bretherton

I've done the same Bill. I listed all of the individual cables needed, with their colour and the components they connect between. That is where I got to 15 colour codes, though there may be a couple of extras that I have left off as I won't want them (radio, cigar lighter, ..) When I have typed out my list I will e-mail you a copy for comparison with your records. I will probably put it into Excel. But it is still just a schematic without the actual lengths needed. I was wondering about a better connector, but the bullet fittings are neat enough, original looking and with new parts should be good for another 20 or 30 years which will long see me out!

GuyW

Guy, thanks for the offer of a copy of your list which is most welcome and I will reciprocate. Yes, I agree with you about new bullet connectors.

W Bretherton

And, I might need to rely on your advice for cable sizing! The easiest way might be to borrow a loom to copy, in order to measure the required lengths and get the correct points for making the side branches. John has offered to lend me a loom to use as a pattern - unless he has had second thoughts on this! But its from a Californian car so presumably different as it will be a LHD version. There is still this issue of trying to replicate the chequered pattern fabric binding - at least on the main visible bundle in the engine bay and on the under bonnet sub-loom.

GuyW

I have my old loom although it's hacked up a fair bit but will give some general guidance e.g. across/ under the dash. It may be a winter job depending on progress!

W Bretherton

Yes, certainly a good winter's evenings task! I can see myself pegging it all out on the living room carpet. ;-)

GuyW

Guy...next to the christmas tree lights your going over the bulbs 1 by 1 finding the single burned out bulb... Haha....you do know thsts how mall shooting start...looking for that one burned out bulb but rhen you added making a lucas loom from scratch Haha...yeah what can go wrong... and at winter with no sun for several months Prop

1 Paper

Guy Glad to hear you are going for it. This may be useful: http://www.peterrenn.co.uk/archive4.html http://www.rjh-heritage.ch/index_htm_files/AH%20Sprite%20MK1%20Wiring%20Diagram.pdf http://www.gerardsgarage.com/Garage/Tech/WiringDiagrams/buegeywiringWS2.htm (From factory workshop manual) As well as the Ripaults tool for crimping Lucas bullet connectors. Cheers Mike

M Wood

Thanks Mike, I have a BS colour code index, though not as humourously written as that one. And l have the factory manual wiring chart. Very similar, though not quite the same as the Haynes manual one which l also have. 2nd link returns a 404 error code. Maybe it's been moved? Got to say, though funny, l don't go along with the Lucas bashing jokes! Lucas, and Wipac, were streets ahead in terms of vehicle wiring products in their hayday, when such things were still very much a new frontier. As time went on they failed to keep up with progress and lagged behind as systems and quality improved. Then in later years they also got hit by cheap fake copies. I do have a ratchet crimper. Oh, and a Lucas branded smoke net.

GuyW

Dont forget to keep a can of blue smoke on hand just incase

1 Paper

Guy, the offer of the loan still stands if you need it! I also am led to believe that the loom is the same LHD/RHD so should be ok, there is a thread recently about it. One thing you could do if you are making your own is have an alternative to those horrendous black double bullet connectors. I've just gone through about 6 on my Sprite that have just fallen apart on me!

John Payne

John Were your bullet sleeves the originals, or modern repros?

Dave O'Neill 2

John - Thanks for confirming that offer. I will let you know when or if I need to take you up on that. Other than planning ahead, its a job I will likely leave until the autumn. Suggestions welcome from anyone about what sort of connectors to use. For pure looks, I do favour the original bullet & sleeve type if well made ones are available. Or better would be something that looks like that but simply works more reliably! I would probably also use some sort of multiplug connectors for where I would want to use sub-looms. The most obvious is to put all of the front lights and front indicators on a sub loom with a single multiplug to simplify bonnet removal and replacement. But I may do a similar arrangement for a behind the dash subloom, and one for a rear of the car subloom. Other than that my preference is for connectors that looks near original, or is at least neat!

GuyW

There kies the rub, finding sometthing that looks orginal and still has the reliability of modern Thought when i do mjne is to go to salvage yard and get all factory connectors from a newer car with ling leads then just cut them back and soilder the on the the ends of the harness and heat sink wrap them Most of that stuff is hidden anyway... but that was my plan. just make sure you get both sides of the connector equation Prop

1 Paper

Guy if you are looking for originality then you are a bit restricted in your choice, Lucas bullet connectors and Lucas spade type with push on sleeves, are about your only option, if you do decide to go down this route, I have the correct plyers for both these application, the bullets and the spade type,(along with every other type you can think of) which if you wish, you can borrow, as you well know, there is nothing wrong with these type of connectors if correctly fitted, and are quite serviceable. for many years

Andy Tilney

A bit of a coincidence I've just ordered the ratchet crimp tool that gives a hexagonal crimp and two different sizes of bullets in the hope I get good connections.

Nigel Atkins

In the past I have always opted to solder spade and bullet connectors in the belief that this was more "permanent" than a crimped connection. But I have found that however well I attempt to clean off any residual flux, in time the wire end begins to corrode. But an electronics friend tells me that a properly done crimp is actually better as the heat from soldering also softens and weakens the copper wire. Just one of those random tips that one picks up after half a century or more of doing these sort of jobs! Slow learner? - yes probably, but at least still learning! As to bullet connectors, apart from some bullets seemingly being wrongly shaped or too small in diameter, the weak spot in modern replacements I have found is the not-so-springy spring brass sleeve. They just seem to loose their temper, and then so do I.

GuyW

Out of curiosity I just looked at prices for the ratchet crimping tools. Strangely they seem to cost about the same as I paid for mine 30-odd years ago. (Although mine also does BNC pins and sleeves). I've had some trouble with the original bullet connectors. It's easy enough to clean up and de-corrode the bullets but not so easy with the female receptacles. Any time I've done it and tested the connection afterwards I nearly always see a voltage drop across it so I've more or less given up and just replace them with modern insulated crimps. My car is a much derided 1500 and I'm not too concerned with originality. For protecting the connections I use Scotchkote, which I reckon is great stuff. City Electrical Factors sell it and have branches all over the place. A tin lasts for ages. I've also stopped using loom tape and sleeving. Plastic spiral wrap is cheap, easy and very effective and comes any size or colour you like. You can take it off and put it back easily if you need to change something and you can break wires out of the bundle anywhere you want. IMO it works better IF you're not bothered about original looking stuff. Here's a trick that might help somebody someday. Few of us have the big industrial crimping tool for the likes of battery cable and earth strap terminals. I don't anyway. But you can easily make a very neat and secure crimped connection by sawing a scrap steel nut in half and using the halves as crimping dies in a sturdy bench vice. The size of the nut is a matter for experiment and judgment but the technique works very well FWIW.

Greybeard

Good tip on the homemade crimping tool, Grey.

Dave O'Neill 2

Guy, Autosparks in Nottingham also offer a re-covering service and will match the original pattern exactly. We used the original 1958 harness as the basis, replaced all the old bullet connectors with 'soldered on' new ones, stripped off the original woven covering, added in numerous additional circuits, fitted new soldered bullets and crimped Lucar connectors where required and sent it to them to weave the covering material - looks like new! Superb service. The covering cost was ~£75 + VAT 18 months ago, and that included as much additional wiring as there was in the original harness! For a 'standard' loom, I would expect the cost to be ~£65 + VAT. For the starter/battery circuit I also used soldered connectors. Richard

Richard Wale

Thanks Richard! This is a message thread worth saving! Full of useful contacts and advice. :-)

GuyW

I made my own for the race car. Bought everything from Vehicle Wiring Products, including a good ratchet crimper. Used a lot of the heated glue connectors - not very original (and not cheap) but very good. Covered it with plain black cloth loom tape. A very satisfying project.

John Collinson

Richard, Thanks for the Autosparks wrapping service info. Now I know that I wasn't just dreaming that stuff up. Charley

C R Huff

If you are rewiring it's worth considering additional fuses and relays. Now there's an old favourite! I rewired a while back starting with an AES loom as suggested elsewhere. On a Frog there are enough problems resulting from difficult and uncomfortable access without having to make up a loom as well. My recollection is that the three part loom was quite complex with a lot of colours and different wire sizes. Make your own if you like the challenge I guess but I wonder at the end of the day how big the saving will be. And buy a fire extinguisher!

Graeme Williams

Might be an oldie Graeme, but it's a goodie. There's not a thing wrong with originality if that's what you like and want, but I think of it like this: if Spridgets were still being made they'd have relays and lots more fuses. Natural progression. Sometimes I wish the bbs had a "like" button.

Greybeard

Hi Guy, I have been toying with the idea of doing a re-wire myself. But whilst the car is working and I don't have garage space the project gets put off. I have had a lot of stuff www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk, as I find their site easy to navigate. In relation to the wiring colours, I was going to get the eight or so primary colours (black, blue, red, green etc.) then tag the ends of the cables with a band of the tracer colour. Like these: www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/345/category/67 I would also use their thin wall cable to reduce the size (diameter) of the looms. I did do an exercise a while back determining the load in each of the cables and therefore the correct wire sizes. I used a fair few crimp on bullet connectors to "refresh" my loom, which I crimped and soldered. I also replaced all the female-female connectors. But you can get solid, solder on bullets too. www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/6 Cheers, Malcolm

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Malc if you really really want to make it yourself, then I suggest buying the correct coloured wires from Autosparks to make your life much easier. They do more sizes and colour combinations than A.E.S.

Dominic Clancy

If (or when, as I already feel quite enthused about this little project) I make my loom I will if at all possible use the correct colours. I don't see the point of using just basic primary ones and tagging the ends, just to save a few pounds. Although I have said I want to use connectors and wire coverings that look reasonably original I am not at all against adding additional wires if needed and will almost certainly include some additional fuses. And I would also add relays for the headlights, horn and stop lights, so long as they can be positioned discreetly. The first big question for me will be whether to keep it positive earth, or go for a neg earth system from the start. Well, that and whether to keep a dynamo or go for an alternator. Decisions, decisions!

GuyW

"The first big question for me will be whether to keep it positive earth, or go for a neg earth system from the start. Well, that and whether to keep a dynamo or go for an alternator." The dynamo/alternator decision should come first, I think.

Dave O'Neill 2

I like the look of Autosparks as well, their looms are reasonably priced and you can have extras like spotlight, power points and electric fan options added. Cost goes up a bit then though! Not far from me as well so I might see if I can get my loom overhauled and re covered.

John Payne

I found out that the new female bullet connectors on my loom were not made of the original plated brass, but plated steel ! Of course they corroded after a winter trip and my headlights failed despite having added some waxoyl when assembled. Replaced with NOS I found in my spares. R.

richard b

With just buying the eight primary colours, yes you would save a bit of money, but the primary reason would be a time/effort saving one. There are 28 different colours in the 1500 loom. So 28 lengths of wire you have to figure out or measure (unless you want a massive drum of 28 different colours!) 28 different bits of wire you have to buy and 28 chances that you will end up at a vital point with a wire that is two inches too short and have to go and buy some more! :-) Just buying 100m drums of the eight (one of which is straight black) was a way round this. But my car is not particularly original. If I were lucky enough to have a Frog, I might be a little more sensitive about originality. Does the attached help you Guy (or anyone else)? It's for a 1500 so perhaps a few bits you don't need, but it helped me organise my thoughts wrt the colours. Cheers, Malc.

Malcolm Le Chevalier

Well I have found the dynamo, and it looks original in that it has the little gearbox drive on the end for the Frog rev counter. I am quite pleased about that as I believe they are hard to come by these days! Next thing is to see if it works. Is there a way I can test this off the car to check it over, and maybe see if it is giving an output? I wonder if I could spin it up fast enough with an electric drill. Or maybe on the lathe? Thanks for the colour chart you posted Malc. I have already made up a chart of all the wires, what they run between and the relevant colours and terminal connectors. I just need to work out the lengths and the wire ratings now.

GuyW

Here's another colour chart, from Paul's mgb-stuff site, but I'm not sure what years it applies to, it's BS-AU7 Colour Code - http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/colourcodes.htm I hope the bullets I've ordered are OK as I ordered all the stuff from the higher priced site to get the two different sizes and avoid the modern brass type.

Nigel Atkins

Malcolm, the Frogeye workshop manual has a very clear wiring diagram with colours indicated. The Frogeye wiring is also very much simpler than the 1500 and I think making a loom is realistic for someone familiar with electrical wiring and an understanding of circuits and electrical safety. I have the remnants of the old loom which will help a little although I'm converting to an alternator so negative earth and no control box. I'll also use relays for headlights and horn and use an electronic tachometer. I'll decide on cable lengths on the vehicle and rough the main loom together before wrapping it, I think, as there's bound to be initial errors. I intend to use bullet connectors and spades like the original. I estimate to spend less than half of a new loom price. Bill

W Bretherton

Correction: I bought my loom from Autosparks (I believe I said AES earlier). Oddly, you don't get the dipswitch section of the loom. If you are adding fuses just be aware that the original "Lucas" glass fuses are not rated the same as modern fuses, so you cannot do a like for like swap.

Graeme Williams

The more I think about it the more I like Malcolm's proposition using just primary colours with colour bands at the ends to identify individual circuits. That said I don't give a stuff about originality, I'd just want it to be efficient, but I fully appreciate that others would prefer it to look original. About this time last year I rewired a 10 metre fishing vessel end-to-end. I used only red and black and only bought three reels of wire. 2.5mm2 and 4mm2 red and 4mm2 black. And that was only because the customer insisted - I would otherwise have used all one colour, (grey of course haha)! To identify the circuits I used hellerman numbered cable markers. It went something like 1xx for the forecabin, 2xx for wheelhouse, 3xx for instrumentation, 4xx for navigation lights, 5xx for deck lights and so on and so forth. I don't remember exactly but very sub-loom contained an extra redundant wire to use as a return for future circuit testing. So I didn't have to worry about different lengths of different colours, just laid the wires into the trunking and snipped them when they got to where they were going, numbered them and made the wiring diagram as I went along. Only a few days ago I used some of the leftover markers to identify the wires in the lifeboat crane control box which has 39 wires in it. 11 are white and the rest black and now I've numbered them it'll take a few hours off the next rewire job. A bit of a diversion I know. Boats have nothing to do with Spridgets, but still I really like Malcolm's thinking and appreciate his logic. Makes sense to me. By the way I do know that some Russian cars of the 60s used wiring of one colour throughout. I reckon for cost cutting - it would have taken longer to make the loom, but labour was very cheap then. God knows how they got their space program off the ground!

Greybeard

At least someone gets me. Thanks Grey :-) didn't TVR used to only use black?

Malcolm Le Chevalier

I can see the logic for simplicity when assembling, although for me there is clear risk l would end up tagging the wrong wire ends! I also could anticipate a lot of puzzling if l later wanted to open the loom and splice in an extra feed or even repair a section. I would rather spend a bit more time planning ahead and ordering the right ones! Now see me find out they aren't all available and l have to revert to generic colours with tags on !

GuyW

Guy, the pro style ratchet bullet crimp tool arrived today and I've been able to do a few tests with it - and and I'd highly recommend it to you. It's easy to use and makes a neat and solid job. It does a much better job than the ratchet crimp tool for insulated connectors (each used to their own fittings of course). If you were nearer I'd let you borrow or try it to see for yourself.

Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel, l have a set l bought a couple of years ago.

GuyW

Right oh. I'm glad I got them over the single pinch type plus the ratchet will save my aged and weakened hands and arms from strain.

Nigel Atkins

Any advice on how to test my Frogeye dynamo, off the car?

GuyW

Guy If you area MASC member there were some recent MASCOT articles on dynamos testing and rebuild. Cheers MIke

M Wood

Mike, I am, and I had forgotten that. I remember there were 2 articles on testing and setting up the control box. I must go and look again through recent back issues. Thanks

GuyW

I had my doubts about the the bullet closing tool I bought. It's similar to Andy's but a bit posher with chrome and plastic handles plus a spring, but the spring wasn't held/located in the middle plus the forks weren't bent enough to get parallel. After using it today I think I'd have been just as well or even better with the cheaper design, like the one below -

Nigel Atkins

Hi Guy. I am as 'careful' with money as any(perhaps more so) but at my rebuild the harness (MGBHive I think) was reasonable cost and I know any connectors and connections in general all seem to add up very quickly.

Slowly

How is the wiring going Guy? I've just taken delivery of a new cloth covered harness from Moss, took advantage of the summer sale and it came in at £180. So my old reasonable condition ex California harness is available if you want to have a go at refurbishing it. I can email you some photos if you like.

John Payne

Hi John, Other than doing quite a lot of planning and measuring, I haven't started on the loom yet. Its really a winter job as I am not ready to install it yet. But I may be interested in the loom. E-mail me off site if you want to let me know what you want for it. Guy(squigglyAT)weller(hyphen}lakes(dot)co(dot)uk

GuyW

Ok Guy, I'll get some photos done over the weekend and send them on. It might not look as good as I remember now I've seen the new one!

John Payne

Resurrecting this thread as I had previously said my intention is to make my own Frogeye loom as a winter project. So now is the time to proceed! I have made up a schedule of cable lengths and connectors but wanted to check on some details. Photos show that the regulator on a Frogeye is positioned on the rear -facing slope of the RH front inner wheel arch (rather than on the bulkhead as for MK2 Sprites and all later cars). Is there any reason why positioning where it is supposed to go, on the wheel arch, would be a bad idea? Secondly, I cannot see in any of the photos where the fuse box goes, other than its not in the same place as on later cars! Any advice? Third question - I am planning on adding fused relay supplies for the lights. On my 1971 car I fitted them in a box on the RH splash panel, fairly close to the lights they serve. The equivalent on the Frog would mean attaching a relay box up near the airbox at the front of the bonnet asembly (I am keeping the rear hinge arrangement.) I wonder if the extra vibration and potential jarring when I open and close the bonnet would be upsetting for the relays. Maybe they are better back on the bulkhead face? What arrangement have others gone for, and was it a good choice?

GuyW

The regulator on my frog is in the original place and it seems fine. I think it is moved on the later cars as it would be a bit hidden by the front wing. The fuse box sits alongside the regulator to the left (viewed from the front) on the inner wing. You can just make it out on page 29 Horler (if you have a copy)

Bob Beaumont

Bob, Thanks that assurance. And thanks also for pointing out that photo in Horler. I had looked at that one but not recognised the little loops of wire showing at the edge of the photo as connections to a fuse plate. Now I know that they are, its obvious!!

GuyW

This was the arrangement Ifinished up with. You can see the two headlamp relays, the main fuse box and the additional fusebox to cover areas where I felt an bit of extra protection was needed. I retained glass fuses.

Graeme Williams

Guy, I've just looked through photos of my original shell (1958) before dismantling but the regulator and fusebox were already loose. I always assumed they were mounted on the sloping bulkhead panel but it now seems they were on the rear face of the inner wing. This helps me for the future! I can't see me constructing the loom for some time though......

Bill Bretherton

Excellent help Graeme. On my '71 car, with headlamp relays fitted, I put the relays near the lights on the logic (?) that I could then feed them with a heavier duty supply cable, and minimise the lengths of the lighter guage Blue/white and Blue/red wires feeding on from there. I am not that sure how relevant or beneficial that actually is, but it seemed to make sense to me.

GuyW

Guy More pics here: http://www.ahexp.com/phorum/read.php?6,187308,page=20 Cheers Mike

M Wood

Here's how mine were, Guy.

Nick and Cherry Scoop

So Nick, your control box was wonky?

GuyW

I haven't actually got as far as putting the electrical components on yet, I am just still measuring up so needed to know where the cables need to start off from. Anyway, I did intend to refurbish my old control box but I think it is probably just too far gone!

GuyW

Oooh, definitely Missus! I just copied that from my dismantling book, and I assumed they were all like that. I rush to the Oracle, and it looks that way on p29. EDIT: That'll come up lovely!

Nick and Cherry Scoop

Looks like it is supposed to be squew-wiff so the cable connections miss the lower extremities of the pedal box?

GuyW

Can't really see a reason for it, Guy, though there's quite a lot of traffic there. Here's my before dismantling shot. Shocking mess.

Nick and Cherry Scoop

Still puzzling over where to position headlamp relays. Graeme has his neatly on top of the pedal box cover (later style hyraulics), so still some distance from the lamps themselves. Earlier I said: <<On my '71 car, with headlamp relays fitted, I put the relays near the lights on the logic (?) that I could then feed them with a heavier duty supply cable, and minimise the lengths of the lighter guage Blue/white and Blue/red wires feeding on from there>> But if this is of no real benefit and the relays are just to protect the switches from excess current, then they may as well go up behind the dashboard, out of sight. Pretty much as they might be on a 'modern'. Any advice welcome!

GuyW

The relays are only to protect the switches, as you say, so you can put them anywhere between the battery feed and the headlights. I'd put them on the bulkhead as it minimises cable length from switch.

Bill Bretherton

But Bill, the current drawn by the relay via the switches is very low, at least compared to the current drawn through the feed wires from relay to headlamp. So shouldn't the latter be the ones to keep to as short a length as possible, with the feed supplying TO the relay in a heavier gauge wire?

GuyW

Guy, in theory that's correct but in practical terms it is not really significant. The original spec wire is more than up to the task of handling the current all the way from the dipswitch to the lamp. You can safely put your relays where you wish, which gives you the option to site them out of view for aesthetics sake. Also FWIW the main advantage of the relays is indeed the protection they offer to the elderly switchgear, but another significant advantage is the improvement of light output from the lamps owing to eliminating the voltage drop across the dipswitch contacts. My lights went from being okay but yellowish to bright white when I installed my relays because the voltage drop across the relays is tiny.

Greybeard

Thanks Greybeard. That does make sense. When l added delays to the '71 car the lights improved significantly. I put this down to the twin feed wires to the relays, positioned up for'ard near to the lights, reducing voltage drop. But l can see now that losses in the 2 in-line switches would be much more significant. I also had in my non-electrician's mind that with fatter cables carrying the lighting current they would be less likely to wear through and cause a short, and if there was a short then the fat wires would cope better with the situation. In practice, the insulation is probably not that much thicker on a fatter side and if it did dead short to earth it hardly matters which size site does it! In fact a thin wire may just act as a fuse, burn through and break the circuit, whilst a dead short on a fatter wire may cause longer lasting damage. All merely musings on a wet Sunday morning.

GuyW

A couple of predictive text 're-interpretations in there of my chosen words, that l have missed. Sorry !

GuyW

Guy, I just meant to minimize amount of wire used from the switch. As you need thicker wire for the lights both TO and FROM the relays it doesn't otherwise matter where they are.

Bill Bretherton

But Bill, the wire between switch and the relay carries very little current, so in one sense it hardly matters how long that part is. On my '71 car I just cut into the existing loom, using Blue/ white and Blue/red from the switches as the signalling wire to the relays. I then used the remaining much shorter loom lengths to carry full power from the relay to the lights, and they are perfectly adequate for this over the reduced length. The only addition then required was a heavy, fused (brown) feed to the relays, one for each. Anyway, following Greybeards's advice, I think I have it clear in my mind what I shall do this time. Still pondering the bonnet hinge arrangement though, and this does have an impact on the layout of the wiring loom.

GuyW

Worthwhile getting a good quality multi-pin plug/socket where the loom goes forwrd to the bonnet connections on a Frog, particulary if you remove the bonnet from time to time.

Graeme Williams

Yes, thanks Graeme. That is the plan. AES do what looks to be quite a good 9-way one. (I need 7, possibly 8) The only doubt being it is transparent/ white plastic and would look better in black. I have read of some people using one of those trailer socket/plugs but they are quite large. I have my cable and connector list sorted. My intention is to do it all in 2mm wire, rated at 17.5A. This will exceed requirements for some of the circuits** but its simpler that way, if its not too bulky. I think only the dynamo to control box (brown) needs to be in a heavier 3mm 27.5A cable though I may do the feed to the lighting relays with the same. Any electricians out there care to confirm if this sounds OK? **By which I mean some like the fuel sender would be OK in 1mm cable

GuyW

Guy I used a multi-way connector on the race car - something like this, but in black https://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/wiring-connectors/auto-marine-multi-block-wiring-connectors I can't remember if I bought it from Demon Tweeks or Autosparks, but they are available.

Dave O'Neill 2

That's much like the AES one I was looking at. They all seem to be illustrated in that translucent/white plastic but maybe if I ring up and ask I will get a black one. I cannot believe they are not available somewhere!

GuyW

I don't know about the ones mentioned but the plastic ones I've seen 'in the plastic' appear quite flimsy which is hard to tell just by a photo. Perhaps look at Car builder site for black.

Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel, I have not come across that supplier before. There is lots of useful stuff there! This 12A per pin one would do me I think, http://tinyurl.com/yb6udx56 - if I used a separate single connector for the main relay feed then a 6 way one would do.

GuyW

Automarine info: http://www.automarinecables.com/accessories/details.cfm?id=283 Cheers Mike

M Wood

Yep Mke. That's the same as the one Dave linked to. There's plenty of choice - at least in white plastic. I could just fit it inside a black rubber boot arrangement for neatness. Are my cable sizes ok do you think - anyone?

GuyW

Guy, I've only ever seen the links to the site (some on here previously I think) I've never used it so can't say about the site or company or quality of the parts they sell.

Nigel Atkins

Guy Anything useful from Vehicle Wiring Products?: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/117/1/multi-connectors/c09136f8523762b97e5dee09012aa1e1 Note that the original loom is in two parts - main loom and the rear loom for rear lights and fuel tank sender (so not many cables to link). Components such as lights mostly joined into loom my Lucas bullet connectors (http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/177/1/4-7mm-bullets-sockets-snap-connectors) plus some spade connectors, e.g. http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/477/blue-female-blade-fully-insulated Cable sizing info: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/article.php/10/technical-information-1-general-notes-on-cable-sizing Thanks Mike

M Wood

Yes Mike, that's pretty much it. I have a single main loom that connects all of the behind the dash wiring to the fuse box, control box and to the forward bonnet lights etc. The latter will be through a multiplug arrangement to ease bonnet removal. Then there is a rear loom to connect in above the driver's side A post using a lucas bullet style multiplug as per original. In effect, three loom sections. Depending on which way I hinge the bonnet I may reposition the horn from the rad support onto the bonnet unit.

GuyW

full range of MIL spec connectors if you wanted to pay a little more and a bit more robust http://cpc.farnell.com/c/cable-leads-connectors/connectors/circular-multipole-connectors/mil-spec-equivalent-circular-connectors

mark heyworth

Thanks Mark, I have often bought from CPC but hadn't thought to look there this time! What does MIL stand for?

GuyW

Military? Similar to items used in my distant past!

Motley 5

Guy If you want a removeable plug for a bonnet for the lights, an old school way of doing this is to use a trailer 7 pin light plug and socket: https://www.tridenttowing.co.uk/12n-7-pin-black-plastic-trailer-plug-p10688 & https://www.tridenttowing.co.uk/maypole-7-pin-12n-plastic-towing-socket-with-fog-cut-out-mp026b-p6244 (Alternatives: https://www.tridenttowing.co.uk/search/plug & https://www.tridenttowing.co.uk/search/socket including metal versions of the plug as well as later EU spec plugs and sockets with more pins. Can also get these from your local trailer centre as well as Indespension). Cheers Mike

M Wood

I considered that Mike but l am wanting something smaller and neater than a trailer plug & socket.

GuyW

I used a Burndy multiway plug and socket and gold plated pins and sockets for corrosion resistance. Something like these http://www.teaflex.com/en/Products/PolyamideSystem/IP66-PolyamideJAW-FITSystem/SF-FemaleUNEFThreadAdapters/SFB-Burndy-ITTCannonTridentConnectors . I expect RS components will have something suitable or CPC or Farnell.

David Billington

Thanks David. Probably a bit OTT for my application. Plus l wouldn't really want 50 of them ! ;-) Change of topic : Why do folk change early positive earth cars to negative earth? Is it just so they can use an alternator? I am sticking with my tach drive dynamo, so is there any other benefit?

GuyW

Guy, That link was just an example of the type, I expect you can buy 1 offs at the other suppliers mentioned. RS as an example http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/industrial-automation-circular-connectors/0474883/

David Billington

Guy, I think your cable size is fine and what I intend to use. Re. Positive/ negative earth, there is an argument that the positive side tends to corrode more due to the "sacrificial anode" effect so positive earth will tend to rust more on the chassis whereas negative earth will corrode more on the cables. You've got me interested in this so I'll do more reading.

Bill Bretherton

Bill, read on, IIRC that theory gets dismissed - but I may well be wrong or remembered wrong.

Nigel Atkins

I'd remembered it as the growth of newer transistor radios but here's a wider opinion from a favorite source - http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/electric/et098.htm

Nigel Atkins

Guy You can now buy an alternator that has a rear drive taco connection as a replacement for the MkI &MkII Sprite dynamos. http://www.powerlite-units.com/about-dynalites/ Not cheap though! Cheers Mike PS Things you find when looking for other things: http://midgetandspriteclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/C39_dynamo.pd

M Wood

Sorry David, My reply to you about not wanting 50 was said tongue in cheek. I realised your link was just by way of illustration and with that info l could readily find a supplier. l didn't mean for you to go searching for one for me! They do look neat enough and l may investigate further. I woke in the night with an idea that a connector pair with a fixed socket base bolted to the car would be quite tidy and maybe better than having a weighty connector hanging on the wires. The light plastic connectors have a moulded in clip for securing but a bolt on socket with hidden wiring coming in at the back would be neat!

GuyW

That's a good explanation about +ve versus -ve earthing Nigel. QI ! The strongest argument for changing to neg earth seems to be in relation to additions to the car like modern radios and presumably should l ever want to add a power socket or USB port. Since changing over on the basic car system is so simple and this isn't a concours contender l think that is what l will do. It gives me more options for the future. Yes Mike l have seen those alternators disguised as a dynamo. More than l paid for the complete car. (Basket case car in a basket, as it then was!) How do you highly organised folk store all this info? Is it just a case of bookmarking anything and everything that seems vaguely useful?,

GuyW

Nigel, it seems that corrosion in positive earth cars was only a problem with older insulation materials because there could be leakage current that would cause corrosion of the chassis/ body (the corrosion occurs on the more positive pole, known as a sacrificial anode). But we need a chemist to verify this. With modern materials it doesn't really matter, it seems, so for convenience of connecting polarity sensitive components you are better using negative earth. I will, but I'm using an alternator so need to. Might put a radio in too - well, only might ;-)

Bill Bretherton

Guy, That's what I did as the main car loom end is fixed to a bracket on the inner wing, that range of connectors have variants for panel fixing.

David Billington

I like the idea of a plug/ socket connector for the bonnet feed - makes a lot of sense.

Bill Bretherton

Following up on David's RS link, this panel mounted socket and plug combo look promising. Only thing is the contacts are rated at 13A (240v) so maybe a little marginal for the headlights (2 X 60W/12v =10A) Or is that OK since the rating is for 240 volt capability? http://tinyurl.com/yb2z77su (not sure why that uploaded photo looks like its a negative. It looks fine on my laptop before I upload it!)

GuyW

Guy, I dealt with that by using the gold plated contacts which had a higher current rating and better corrosion resistance IIRC and running a supply + ground contact per lamp rather than feeding both high beams/low beams off the same circuit. Having said that RS has so many options I suspect if you have the time you could find a connector with higher rated contacts. RS is great, I used to use Farnell until they stopped sending me the printed catalogue and using the web catalogue took so much more time I switched to RS as the details to make a selection were so much easier to access. Trouble with RS sometimes is they have so much stuff if can be difficult to see the wood for the trees.

David Billington

It's nice but you need the correct tool to crimp the pin terminals. Also can I suggest that it's a good plan to have more pin-ways than you need right now, to future-proof it. You might want to run wires someday to accessories you haven't even thought of yet so a bit of spare capacity might be a good thing and won't add a lot to the cost. I think I'd be inclined to liberate a plug/socket combo from the column switch of a scrap car - they tend to be very sturdy.

Greybeard

Greybeard, When I did them I soldered the joints and that worked well as the shells have cable clamps so they're well secured and I know other sparkies that have done the same. Crimps are more affordable these days if you pick the appropriate ones but I would admit that the OE items are very spendy, have bought a few 2nd hand at good prices.

David Billington

Fair dos David I stand corrected. Cannon connectors are very common on ROV wiring harnesses which is where I have used them, but the pins are a PITA to extract and replace without the special tool. 70s/80s Fords used a type of multiway plug and socket for the front subloom which was frankly a bit cheapo - I ended up cutting them out of several cars and replacing them with insulated crimps, but I never even heard of the stalk switch plug/socket failing which is why I suggested it. Although it's in-line and not panel-mount so wouldn't be as neat. I just thought it might be an effective and inexpensive solution.

Greybeard

I thought all moderns use these skinny little signalling wiring systems to operate relays or send pulse codes to the cpu ? I can't imagine column switch wiring would be anywhere near up to carrying proper electricity! I have a friend who used to be a rep for RS, back in the day when they had reps on the road. He knows their stuff inside out and still has stocks of many of the special tools and demo equipment, so crimping connectors isn't a problem. I only have the one heavier feed for the lighting relays, so if 13A doesn't give enough margin, l could bridge 2 pins together. Or l could run twin power feeds as l did on my other car. Incidentally, that 13A figure is for the gold plated pins and l think they would be sufficient.

GuyW

» I thought all moderns use these skinny little signalling wiring systems to operate relays or send pulse codes to the cpu? « Yep you're right. Or nearly. There are still a few exceptions, but I was thinking of older stuff. » that 13A figure is for the gold plated pins and l think they would be sufficient. « Right again. So do I. I didn't mean to discourage you, just save you a few beer tokens!

Greybeard

soldering the pins on is an option if you don't have the correct tool, when i used to work on aircraft some were soldered , i would buy a quality connector then you should be able to forget about it as they should last.

mark heyworth

I have previously used components which come with fiddly brass connectors which often have barbs on so when you push them in the plastic body, the wire comes out again and you can't free the connector. Real PITA! Can't beat spade connectors. Let's face it, it is unlikely to be unplugged too often.

Graeme Williams

Interesting full circle Graeme. I emailed the friend that I mentioned earlier who worked for RS and he similarly referred me back to the simple spade connector multiplugs, just as you have. Simple is best.

GuyW

I think insertion force and corrosion issues are a potential there unless you can get a sealed variant. I never had any issues with corrosion on the gold plated pin/sockets but had to clean the alternator spades every few years because of corrosion issues. I never had to remove any of the pin/sockets but the tool from RS is £12.44(+VAT) from a quick look earlier and I expect if you have a hobby shop that stocks the thin brass tube you could find a suitable size to compress the barbs.

David Billington

I also think "simple is best" and will probably use a multi-way 6.3mm spade connector from e.g. AES. You can maybe wrap tape or heat shrink around the cable ends of each connector. I suppose you could silicon them but if a wire breaks or pulls out it's a faff to repair.

Bill Bretherton

This.... The ultimate insulation/corrosion protection for electrical gear hands down.

Greybeard

Guy Europa Spares appear to have them in black https://www.europaspares.com/auto-electrical/terminals-connectors/electrical-multiplugs.html They even have a Frogeye on their homepage https://www.europaspares.com/

Dave O'Neill 2

With multiple cables in and out getting a seal there will be a problem. Between the plug and socket itself less so. You could get a small plastic bag and cut out the end so it is an open ended sleeve and slide it over the assembly and cable tie each end around the cable bunches. On the other hand, not very neat. It is being installed in a dry area which will be warm when the engine is running. It will be reliable for a good few years.

Graeme Williams

you could tape it with this as you would not be unplugging it every day https://www.screwfix.com/p/self-amalgamating-rubber-tape-black-25mm-x-3m/2115V?tc=BA7&ds_rl=1249481&ds_rl=1245250&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI96KKxPO42AIV7LXtCh3kXgU2EAQYASABEgJBBPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CL_0jsnzuNgCFZG1UQodU_QElQ

mark heyworth

I use a lot of that self amalgamating tape Mark. I almost always use it in preference to ordinairy black self adhesive insulating tape which I find invariably begins to unstick at the ends and edges leaving untidy sticky bits. I also use it for seating for small brackets before bolting them to the bodywork. It works well on the steering rack clamps, deforming and squashing as you tighten the bolts and gripping the rack tightly. Its very much on my "Very Useful Stuff" shelf (Along with a tube of Greybeard's 3M Scotchcote and some Sugru)

GuyW

Now for some questions on Wiring and Soldering tips: Is there a good way of cleaning of flux remnants from a joint / wire after soldering? From past performance I don't think I am very good at this. Either because I don't wipe away the excess or because it gets down between the strands. Result is that in time and with damp conditions, the copper wire strands get eaten away and weakens. ~is there a tecnique or maybe a product to clean joints after soldering? And, possibly associated with this - what causes the copper wire strands to blacken over time? It seems to start at the ends and gradually work its way up the wire inside the insulation. I assume its some sort of corrrosion or oxydation. Or maybe its just poor quality wire? If you clean it off when making new joints it definately leaves the wire weakened

GuyW

There are marine connectors for deck use, I always carried my wiring through the hull and joined below decks using deck glands but these may be of use - but expensive and O.K down to 10metres ! https://www.tcschandlery.co.uk/bulgin-buccaneer-waterproof-plug-6-pin/p12663 They are similar to the 'Dryplugs' I remember but can't find anymore.

richard b

Guy How about these high quality Niphan plugs and sockets: https://www.johnrichardssurplus.co.uk/niphan-ltd-commercial-7-pin-trailer-socket-clang.html With https://www.johnrichardssurplus.co.uk/niphan-ltd-commercial-7-pin-trailer-socket-clang.html Or the NATO socket. And plug: https://www.johnrichardssurplus.co.uk/military-nato-12-pin-trailer-socket-with-cable-nato1.html Cheers Mike

M Wood

I've very little experience of soldiering so only wonder - would a soldier sucker be appropriate? Also is your iron powerful enough or too powerful?

Nigel Atkins

Nigel, I have several soldering irons for different applications. But I have never tried sucking a soldier. Why the thread drift?

GuyW

To clean flux residue you can use a variety of volatile solvents. IPA, meths, contact cleaner spray, trichlorethylene, brake cleaner, surgical spirit - whatever is handy within reason. Even petrol works. Bearing in mind that most of these are flammable so one needs to be circumspect. I assume you are using flux cored solder wire - this uses a resin type flux and neither the flux or the residue are water soluble. It is very convenient, but I have the feeling they put too much flux in it for most purposes. I mostly prefer a non-fluxed solder and a liquid flux called Baker's No.3 fluid, because I'm a bit old fashioned. This can be cleaned up with soapy water and an old toothbrush. It's also the flux of choice I think for lead-loading with soft plumbers bar. Most people don't bother cleaning residues and I'm sometimes too lazy myself, but I believe all flux residues are corrosive, or form corrosive compounds with (for example) atmospheric moisture so cleaning the joints is good practice. Edit: "soldier sucker"... I know it's a typo but it made me grin!

Greybeard

IIRC electronic solder uses rosin as flux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosin , I wouldn't use Bakers fluid anywhere near wiring or electrical bit without being able to thoroughly clean it as the main ingredient is zinc chloride so it produces an active acidic flux which if not removed would lead to corrosion.

David Billington

No, I am not using flux cored solder, Grey, but use plumber's solder paste as certified for potable water supplies - mainly cos that's what I have!

GuyW

Solder suckers are for removing solder when taking components off circuit boards. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633609-Metal-Solder-Sucker/dp/B000LFTN4S

mark heyworth

You definitely want electronic type solder for wiring imv.

Bill Bretherton

Guy, I knew that word would get me one day, I've been hearing on too many American shows about "soddering" - no wait, I'm making things worse - I'm off ...

Nigel Atkins

I found the easiest way to solder bullet ends was with a small gas blow lamp! Cut a short length of solder and drop into bullet. Heat up until solder is liquid and then shove bared wire into end. Tried for ages with iron and rarely successful.This way achieved a good solid connection.

Graeme Williams

With a crimp you can install bullets to wires in situ (only just sometimes though).

Nigel Atkins

Nigel: never found crimped bullets particularly successful even on the commercial loom where a number let the cable pull free without extracting the bullet itself.

Graeme Williams

Original Lucas (Rists) crimped bullets were...well, bulletproof. I suppose with replacement looms, it would depend very much on the individual making it and whether they selected the correct size bullet for the gauge of wire. I didn't have any issues with my Autosparks loom, but I don't remember having to disassemble any joints.

Dave O'Neill 2

I've found with the small number of modern bullets and connects that I've had about a 20% failure rate so I always check before fitting if I can. Ratchet crimper seem to fit (correct size) bullets to (correct size) wires very well. The closing tool to fit the bullets in the connectors that I have probably isn't as good as the cheaper model. What is the correct recognised method to take the bullets out?

Nigel Atkins

Nigel Good question on how to remove bullets - for a double connector used for three bullets can sometimes use a small screwdriver from the other end to push the bullet out. Beyond that it is often pull how you can with a set of pliers on the end (and sprayed some electrical wiring spray/WD40 first and left a while) or often, unfortunately, the only option is to pull on the wire (and pulling it off without the bullet). Usually removing a bulge from a connector is required due to a fault linked to corroded bullets, connectors or wires so repair work needed anyway. Bullet crimping tools: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/273/bullet-crimping-tool & http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/272/bullet-crimping-tool Befire I got the first one of the above I used to use the following cheaper option of W crimp bullets and crimper: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/453/w-crimp-type-4-7mm-bullet & http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/product.php/270/diy-tool-for-non-insulated-terminals Full range of bullets and connectors for Lucas applications: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/177/1/4-7mm-bullets-sockets-snap-connectors Range of non-insulated crimping tools (including the bullet closer): http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/section.php/119/1/non-insulated-terminal-crimping-tools Nigel - I know none of get above is news, but maybe to those new to Lucas electrics. Cheers Mike

M Wood

Hi Mike thanks for your reply. I use the small screwdriver method to get the bullets out, either as you put with a three connector or with a two or four connector I slide the cover off if I can and walk the bullets out from the gap in the middle of the connector strip with the small screwdriver but thought there might be a tool or better method. I got the ratchet bullet crimp and can highly recommend it but would prefer the cheaper closing tool (as photo below) as I bought the more expensive type and I didn't find it worked so well. Below is the type I wished I'd bought - although I've not tried this sort it looks like it'd work better.

Nigel Atkins

Reverting back to my proposed wiring loom, I had earlier said that I intended to do the whole thing in 2mm, 17.5A cables. That is, other than the Dynamo wire. But thinking again, this may be excessive and playing too much on the safe side. What are the thoughts on doing the lower demand circuits in 1mm, 8.75A cable? From the bulb ratings, stop lamps take only 3.5A, side lights 2A and panel lights and fuel gauge even less. Headights, heater fan, wipers and indicators (when used X 4 as hazards) would still be on 17.5A cable

GuyW

If you're going to the trouble of tracer colours then you could go down to 1mm and have appropriate connectors too. Or if you're going with reels of main colours only then 2mm thinwall throughout (except those requiring thicker of course) continuity, space saving and flexibility. You'll have as required all wires wrapped, sleeved, clipped and grommets anyway.

Nigel Atkins

Thanks for your response Nigel. Though I am not sure what you are suggesting? Yes I plan to use the correct colour coded wires, both single and colour + tracers. They are all available in both standard cable and thinwall, though I was unsure that thinwall would be suitable. Are you suggesting that thinwall is OK to use? I am not sure why, but the ratings for thinwall are higher, so e.g. 1mm standard cable is rated 8.75A but in thinwall its 16.5A, but I don't understand why for the same amount of conductor. PS, I considered braided wires for originality, but already decided against that.

GuyW

Guy, The electrical insulation acts as a thermal insulator as well as electrical so if you make it thinner the heat generated due to the current can escape better leading to a higher current rating.

David Billington

David, Yes I did wonder about that being the case. I am familiar with sizing of fixed wiring cables for higher current rated appliances like showers for when doing house wiring, and the requirements to take account of whether cables are open to air or buried in walls. I am surprised it makes as much difference on 12v vehicle cabling as it does though, if this is the only reason for the higher rating of thinwall. Though if that is the case, I am happy to accept your explanation and will probably use thinwall, at least for some of the cabling if not all. Would you think that insulation on thinwall is physically robust enough for our cars?

GuyW

Guy, "Would you think that insulation on thinwall is physically robust enough for our cars? " That I can't answer as I don't have experience of it, I would also expect it to be effected by how it was bundled in a loom with other wires, whether tightly wrapped or more loosely fitted into convoluted sleeving as is often used these days, much the same situation as house wiring as you mentioned. I can't see you using the sleeving as it wouldn't look original. Sounds like maybe you need to speak to the supplier and see what they have to say.

David Billington

The "theoretical" issue about cable sizing is all about the fuse which protects it. Nearly all components on our cars take quite low power so commonly used cables will cope no problem. In the event of a short however, it would be ideal if the fuse failed before the cable burned out. The problem in the original design was that one large fuse protects a number of cables. This can be made worse by replacing the Lucas glass fuses (rated at their failure value) by modern fuses which are rated at their running value. My preference is to put in more, smaller fuses with fewer "connected" circuits.

Graeme Williams

Guy, I was just thinking the thinwall would be easier to handle and perhaps bundle, be more flexible/less-stiff individually and grouped. Like when you have home appliances with the same flexis/cables/interconnectors from different suppliers some are more flexible than others. I've only used thinwall as replacement single wires on the car and to make up test leads and connectors, they've no more protection than their sleeving and where required clips, cable-ties and grommets. The 1mm you quoted also varies in that thinwalll is 32/0.20 against 14/0.30. The difference in rating isn't as high on the 2mm at 25A for thinwall against 17.5A with both using 28/0.030. As you are well aware I know very little about electrics so anything I put could easily be overturned by those that know more which is very many (on anything).

Nigel Atkins

Another typo, should be - The difference in rating isn't as high on the 2mm at 25A for thinwall against 17.5A with both using 28/0.30. (not 0.030)

Nigel Atkins

Thinwall vs. standard cable. I rang AES for advice. Apparently the insulating plastic material used on thinwall cables is harder and more dense than the traditional material used on standard cable. This makes it more resistant to abrasion but has similar insulation qualities and is also still as flexible. He said it is slightly harder to strip, so the 1950s technique of using one's teeth is probably not to be recommended! He also said that almost all modern 12v car wiring carrying full continuous current ( a lot doesn't as it is often effectively a signal wire ) uses thinwall because of the weight and material savings and as it is less bulky. To me, with only a few wires in each bundle on the simple wiring of the Sprite none of these factors seem important so for simplicity I am inclined to stick with my original intention of doing it all in 17.5 A (2mm) standard cable

GuyW

Guy, don't use your teeth I used to until they cracked. Despite the price a good quality wire stripper will be a blessing if you're making up a loom. I just used thinwall as it's more flexible for pulling through and in congested nest areas like behind the dash, just a little more flexible for the knit-one, pearl-one, connections too.

Nigel Atkins

Nigel, l wasn't being serious about using teeth, although l have done on occasions in the past. I guess most will have done once in a while. Now lhave several sets of wire strippers, and one set of original teeth!

GuyW

Guy, unfortunately I was, wish I wasn't.

Nigel Atkins

Before the thread started I'd virtually decided to use the AES "braided" cable as it looks "period". Now I'm not so sure. You pay a premium for the braided so maybe standard or thinwall will do. I see no problem with thinwall, in fact it's better electrically as it has a higher current capacity for a given conductor size whilst still, apparently, offering good abrasion resistance. 2p a metre cheaper than standard cable from AES as well. Decisions, decisions....

Bill Bretherton

The 2p difference may be because the standard wire may no longer be the standard cable used. A nice bit or word mangling there. :)

Nigel Atkins

I have gone full circle on this Bill. Taking a step back, I reminded myself that I wanted to keep the car as near standard as possible, true to its 1950s design, at least in appearance. The only significant upgrade so far being the switch to disc brakes, and even that nearly didn't happen! So earlier today I put in my order to Autosparks for standard cable, mostly 2mm/ 17.5A, bullet connectors and cloth loom wrapping tape. I ordered some of their braided cable for the wiring from and around the control box and fuse plate where it is very visible. Elswhere it will be the standard pvc cover. If you are going for thinwall, then www.autosparks.co.uk at 25p/m for 1mm, is considerably cheaper than the others I looked at.

GuyW

Sure you have probably answered this before but it's a long thread to red back through: Are you intending to use the correct wire colours albeit in 2mm cable?

Graeme Williams

Yes Graeme, and as for sizing, as far as I could tell the original would have been a mixture of 17.5 A (2mm) and 8.75 A (1mm) for some of the ancilliaries. For simplicity on the order I chose to go with it all in 2mm (excepting the main dynamo and battery to control box wires which are 25 A 3mm). I also did the calcs on the longer circuits for voltage drop using lamp wattage and the wire resistance figures, just to check it was all ok.

GuyW

Autosparks sounds much better value - thanks for the hint Guy.

Bill Bretherton

Only one size of bullets needed too. I can't remember if I put it here or not but over-order your requirements of bullets and connectors to not only allow for "droppies" and "losties" but if my small sample was anything to go by 20% of the connector stock was useless, I got them from VWP but I'm sure the others would be the same.

Nigel Atkins

Well that was quick! Ordered from Autosparks yesterday at 12.10 and delivery arrived here at just after 10.00am! And its not as if it was a simple, single item package. The order was for 19 different colours of cable, all cut to length plus another 12 different lines, 31 different picks in all so it must have taken a while just to assemble the order! Q-DOS !

GuyW

Any idea how the cost will compare with a bought-in loom yet?

Graeme Williams

Graeme, About 1/3rd, like for like. But l am adding relays for the lights, brakelights and a detachable sub-loom for the bonnet so will probably get nearer to 1/2 by the time l am finished. But it could have been less if l had opted for the thinwall cable and also not bought braided for any of it. The savings will buy me a new control box, fuse box and headlight units, all of which l need.

GuyW

I reckoned somewhere around 1/3 plus you can customise it how you like. You're also familiar with it (important to document your design) so easier to diagnose electrical faults. People are afraid of wiring but it's not too complicated really (especially fora Frogeye) - just a number of wires bound together, each connecting one point to another.

Bill Bretherton

Guy: lot of bad publicity about new control boxes recently. Retain and service the old one (if it is a Lucas) if possible- have a look at reports in Mascot.

Graeme Williams

Graeme, I would dearly love to but I just think it is too far gone (photo) Apart from the very obvious corrosion, the insulation around one of the coils has melted and I suspect that coil has burnt out. And the coil wound resistor on the underside, has disintegrated. John Davies (who occasionally pops up here) is very critical of the new replacement control boxes. Although I don't know specifically what the problem is I am very confident that he knows what he is talking about! I am hoping to source a decent original one

GuyW

These might offer an alternative to some - http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/reproduction-rb106-and-rf95-regulators.php

Nigel Atkins

If you were thinking along the lines of the electronic units Nigel suggested (which are probably a better buy than a dubious old style item) how about going for a look-alike dynamo/alternator with the rev counter drive. Probably not agreat difference in price at the end of the day and more charging power. And no regulator.

Graeme Williams

NOS reg here: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-LUCAS-12V-VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-RB106-2-37182M-LAND-ROVER-AUSTIN-MINI-NOS/162717012545?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49130%26meid%3Dba85d93445964750840770d7e921f47d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D322972610423&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 This is RB106. I think RB106/2 is substantially the same except for having Lucar terminals instead of screw posts, but I think this one is like your old one. As I understand it the big problem with modern repros is that the case is thermoplastic instead of bakelite. The heat generated by the the resistor deforms it. Also several comments suggest they are inaccurate and the output voltage is not properly controlled. But they (copies) are available and seem to go for about 30 quid.

Greybeard

Am I right in thinking thate ebay one is from late November 1976 vintage (48 76) (?). This gives genuine LATER Lucas and same explanation as Grey. - http://www.simonbbc.com/charging/genuine_lucas_rb106_30v_12a_negative_earth_voltage_regulator I'd go with the Dynamo conversion electronic one as I've meet the guy a couple of times and he's 100% not a sales person much more like an electrics engineer selling stuff. "All our reproduction parts are proudly made in England supporting English manufacturing"

Nigel Atkins

Wasn't there a recent article in MASCOT by John E Davis on rebuilding and setting up a Voltage Regulator? Cheers Mike

M Wood

1) In my view, the prices of those ebay regulators are way too high. 2) Anything in a green and white 'LUCAS' box was not made by the old proper LUCAS company. For information about what's wrong with the modern replica regulators, see my MASCOT article (Feb 2017 issue, pages 14-16. 3) Guy, If you want a good original RB106 then mail me direct (my email address is at the end of any of my MASCOT articles). John.

J.E. Davies

John that's an interesting post. I've never seen the Mascot article and don't have access to it - is there an online version? You clearly know what's what and I'm interested to know more. As I understand it the case deforms on the modern repros and allows the contacts to move, so that the voltage calibration is basically useless. Is that more or less the case?

Greybeard

Well, there you go Grey, - you really should be a MASC member. Then you would get a monthly copy of the excellent magazine, and better yet - you would have online access to read articles from previous magazines published before you finaly submitted! John, yes I had read that article of yours, and the others in the ongoing saga of dynamos and control boxes. I was suitably convinced enough to retain my tach - drive dynamo and all I need is a decent condition RB106 to go with it! I don't know if you saw the photo of the unit which came with the car, but it is well beyond repair. I have taken a gamble and purchased an original Lucas unit which from the photograph looks to be in fair codition. It hasn't arrived yet for proper inspection but I am hoping that it will at the least be suitable for 'servicing' as you have described in your MASC articles. Whether I can then sucessfully manage to properly reset it remains to be seen! So thank you for your offer - I may yet be in touch!

GuyW

Well Guy, I'm glad I have convinced at least one person to hang on to their tacho-drive dynamo. Thanks. You have cheered me up! Re the RB106 boxes - unless these are beyond economic repair (like the one in your photo), they can usually be restored to full health by dismantling/cleaning/re-setting. It's the re-setting that's a bit tricky if you do not have the right equipment. I have an electric motor driven dynamo on my bench, with a v high quality moving-coil voltmeter to set the regulator and another bit of kit which helps me to set the cut-out. There's no charge for this service to MASC members (but a contribution to the RNLI is always welcome). Unless you really do want to tackle the job yourself, I suggest you mail your RB106 to me. The joke amongst all the engineers in the old LUCAS company was that was worth £5 (to them) every time someone took the lid off an RB106 box. And £5 was a lot in those days (the price of a brand new one). John.

J.E. Davies

Thanks John, I will contact you directly, once I have recieved the RB106 that I have bought, and had a chance to take a good look at it. I will "take the lid off" it but won't tamper too much!

GuyW

Greybeard, Guy's right, you will have to join MASC to view all the back articles, technical data etc. But I have attached one photo from my article about the replica RB106 units which illustrates one of the most serious problems: the adjusting screws of the original LUCAS units have a ball-point-pen-like ball bearing (arrowed, yellow) at their tip: this is essential for smooth movement against the bi-metallic strips which provide (a) regulator adjustment and (b) temperature compensation. The replicas have just a crude point, something which makes them difficult/impossible to set. There are many other problems with these replica units, the build quality is terrible, I refuse to touch them. In contrast, many 60+ year old originals are still going strong, good for another 60 years ... John

J.E. Davies

Guy, you know I wouldn't bother fiddling about with an original control box and would buy the updated electronic version - http://www.dynamoregulatorconversions.com/reproduction-rb106-and-rf95-regulators.php But I know you prefer the older idea so as I was looking for something else I found theses JT videos that might be of interest to you if you've not already seen them - 42 MG Control Box - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL5ioH8idFI More Fun With Regulators - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkWnkJXxq8M

Nigel Atkins

Yes Nigel, I did look at that link of yours earlier. They may be a good upgrade but it's far too pricey for me at £160. I would much rather stick with the original version!

GuyW

True but you'd probably have to buy at least two of those later Lucas ones at £80 each over a period of time whilst trying to guess at what point they become unreliable. £80 for NOS would probably be a better bet or something that Mr. Davies has repaired or checked. I do vaguely remember checking a control box on my previous Spridget probably using a Haynes so lord knows what it was set to between that combination. * Sorry just seen you've already got one, mised that before. *

Nigel Atkins

Yes, my replacement one has arrived. Looks good!

GuyW

I will admit I haven't read all 195 posts on this thread. This is a heads up for anyone replacing a wiring loom/harness. One of the wires going to the control box/ voltage regulator has a special connector with a vertical projection. Looks like the end of an airplane, kinda. This connector is not provided with a replacement loom/harness. You must reuse the one from the original loom/harness if you are looking for it to look original. The connector provided will work, just doesn't look the same.

J Bubela

Not just that it won't look right. More than that, the tag is designed so the wire it is supposed to be fitted to will ONLY go onto terminal F. Without the proper tag, then it is possible to connect it to the wrong terminal and fry the voltage regulator and the dynamo.

GuyW

Will this thread still be going when you make the final connection Guy? It's almost as though Lawrence has some unseen influence in another 200+ post thread. Good range of related topics though.

Graeme Williams

I have one of the hexagonal, 2 fuse, bakelite fuseboxes as fitted to the MK1 Sprites. But it has no cover and l am not sure if it should have one. Can anyone give me a definitive answer - and win the prize for the 200 posting on this too - long thread ?

GuyW

BINGO! There isn't one shown on the Moss parts catalogue, whereas there is for the later 2-way fusebox. https://www.moss-europe.co.uk/shop-by-model/austin-healey/sprite/electrical/switches-controls/switches-controls-sprite-i.html

Dave O'Neill 2

C'mon Guy you've resisted long enough - http://brooklandsbooks.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=12_35_526&product_id=62

Nigel Atkins

Thanks Dave. And congrats on the Award! Nigel it will surprise you to know that l do have the owner's handbook, and surprise you even more to know that l remembered to look at it! But the absence of a cover in the illustration isn't necessarily because it wasn't supplied with one - it may have been omitted intentionally in order to show the position of the fuses and spares. The base certainly has a moulded in central spire that looks as though it is designed to fasten a cover to, as in the contemporary mini ones. I will take Dave's word for it, not least because it saves me searching the garage - again!

GuyW

Terry Horler shows a fuse box without lid. Same source says it's an SF6 and all the pics if you google it show hexangonal box, no cover.

Graeme Williams

Guy, no, and no, and I realised that might be the case, surprising us both I remembered - it was just opportunistic product placement on my part, royalties are thin this time of year. :) Others might not realise how much useful info this small book contains.

Nigel Atkins

The problem, Nigel, is that your "placed product", the good book, like many other sources, has its faults as well. Case in point that illustration you posted clearly shows the voltage regulator aligned parallel to the rear edge of the wing, which is not how they were assembled.

GuyW

Oh come on Guy! Criticise the Handbook at your peril. If the handbook differs from the car, the car should be changed to suit the handbook. THat includes you growing a moustache and wearing a flat cap when driving.

Graeme Williams

Guy, I can remember one error in the Handbooks being brought to our attention but can't think of any others. However I think it's wrong to slur the photo I put up as it appears, to me at least, it's just a matter of camera angle. The Driver's Handbooks were never designed as restoration guides but are very often useful for such - as well as a comprehensive owner's manual. Once you've got your control box fitted I'll try to get a photo of yours at the same angle as the one in the good book. You'll be very pleased to know I'm up your way in May so you've plenty of time but not have to wait too long.

Nigel Atkins

It appears that during 1959 the Triumph TR3a had a 2 way fuse carrier that changed from being open to having a snap-on cover 'to inhibit fuse corrosion' https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZVRq-KUY_bgC&lpg=PA85&ots=_s-I0Yj2r5&dq=tr3a%20TS60001%20fuse%20cover&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=tr3a%20TS60001%20fuse%20cover&f=false Jim

J Smith

Interesting Jim, that one (pp84 & 85 on the link) looks very much like the ones used on MK2 Sprites. It also confirms that in the triumphs they did start out with uncovered fuse boxes so that matches with the frogeye situation.

GuyW

Its the same fusebox as used on the MGA, and there is no cover The SF4 fusebox has the same mounting and gives four fuses and a cover, so it's a good choice for upgrading to add fuses on the lighting circuit and staying with period parts and glass fuses.

Dominic Clancy

I had considered the 7FJ fusebox with blade terminals but the SF4 with (original) screw terminals perhaps has more appeal.

Bill Bretherton

Yes, I considered a 4 fuse 7FJ, not least because I have a spare from the other car. But in the end have opted for an open topped SF6 (original). I don't think that the individual circuits are any less well protected having just 2 fuses(one for horn and the other for everything else). But it would make it harder tracing a fault so I might add some in-line fuses more descretely hidden. But OTOH the visual clue of the fuel guage not working and confirmed by the wipers not working is a handy alert to a failure of brake lights or indicators that you may not otherwise realise had gone AWOL.

GuyW

This thread was discussed between 08/07/2017 and 26/01/2018

MG Midget and Sprite Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG Midget and Sprite Technical BBS is active now.