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MG MGA - 5-speed gearbox conversion
Hello MGA owners!
I have been searching the archives for advice/guidance on converting my MGA to a 5-speed. I installed the original transmission and believe I am capable of making to the conversion myself. However, I have a few questions: 1. Will I need to perform any welding? (not for rust) 2. I do not have an engine hoist so has anyone installed their 5-speed without removing the engine? If so, what steps did you take? 3. Will I need any specialized tools? 4. I've printed/read the HiGear instructions. Are there any other supplemental instructions available? I get a lot of compliments on my car and accolades on the "job I've done..." I always respond with a "thank you" and a proud admission that I could not have done anything without the advice I get from this site!! So, thanks again in advance! Gerard |
gerard hutchinson |
I can confirm that the only tool you will need (apart from spanners) is a drill for the four holes that need to be drilled...absolutely no welding or cutting needed. Probably best, and much easier if the engine is removed. I've done six of these conversions now, and all with engine removed. |
Gary Lock |
Gerard
in theory, you can remove the MGA gearbox on its own without removing the engine, but in practice this is a very tedious process which involves dismantling the entire interior of the car including the seats, the floorboards and then the transmission tunnel so that you can then get the gearbox to allow you to remove it upwards and out through the inside of the car. Like Gary says, it is far far easier to first remove the engine, then the gearbox out and upwards through the engine compartment. You do need lifting gear for this, ( you could hire an engine lift for a few days), I got hold of a chain lift and I bought a tripod tall enough so that I could lift the engine well clear of the bodywork. If you are considering doing the Hi-Gear conversion, all you need to do is drill four holes in the floorboard support rails for the new T9 gearbox rear mounting brackets. It is a superbly designed conversion kit. There is no need to modify the transmission tunnel with this conversion. The other option is the Mazda Miata / MX 5 gearbox kit as supplied by Vitesse, this is a superb gearbox but the conversion kit is new and so it may be subject to some development. Ken Klay fitted this kit to his MGA in 2018 and he wrote about the problems he had in making the Vitesse kit fit into his car. He did have to cut various pieces out of his transmission tunnel to get the box to fit inside. This is a link to the posts he wrote on the MGA Experience forums about the challenges he faced. Vitesse may well have since modified their kits to make it an easier process. Cheers Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
Clarification: If memory serves me, there is one very large nut & bolt connecting the transmission to the frame. To reach that nut and bolt I have the remove the transmission tunnel, correct? If that is the case I should remove at least one seat to have proper access to the tunnel. I must admit, I have not investigated how hidden the nut & bolt is... |
gerard hutchinson |
You can reach that large bolt and nut without removing the tunnel! Tackle it from underneath.
I have always removed the engine and transmission together, a personal choice, but quite easy. Others will say separate them but ----- I just find it easy! I use a 'come-along' (like a block and tackle but with a ratchet handle), uncouple the tail-shaft joint and engine mounts, lift the package a little and roll the car out from under, as you manouvre the engine forward. Good luck with the conversion and please keep us informed of progress. Barry. |
Barry Gannon |
You can remove that rear mounting bolt with the tunnel in place. However if the previous owner fitted the bolt with the tunnel removed and fitted the bolt incorrectly, as shown in the Workshop Manual, you cannot remove it. If that is the case there is a solution http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/gearbox/gt100.htm Mick |
M F Anderson |
Gerald, what engine will you be using?
The others have said it. Engine out is far the easiest. The whole engine out and upgrade process can be done by one person (personal experience) although a second pair of hands can come in useful for lifting the new gearbox and siting. Make sure you go for the speedo right angle adaptor on the gearbox. This will allow you to use the original speedo cable instead of the alternative of a cable coming out of the side of the tunnel and snaking across the passenger floor board. There are threads on this modification that are worth reading as the adaptor is a tight fit in the tunnelling. One of the best investments I made was to buy an engine crane - Under £200 ($250). I hesitated at the time because of the outlay but you only have to use it about 4 or 5 times over the years and it has paid for itself, and I have lifted a lot of other stuff in the garage including my lathe, compressor, heavy stuff in and out of the car boot (trunk) etc. Saved my back a lot of aches and pains. Steve |
Steve Gyles |
Barry, I agree... removing the engine and transmission does sound more effective but I will need to remove the tunnel at some point to install the new mounting bracket. OR... is there enough room to drill holes and install the bracket from underneath?! Steve, Please tell me more about the "...speedo right angle adaptor..." It definitely sounds like something I rather do. Where can I get this part? Thanks, Gerard |
gerard hutchinson |
ALSO... Is it better to purchase the kit and transmission from Moss Motors or from HiGear? I prefer to purchase everything from one source... |
gerard hutchinson |
Gerard No need to remove the tunnelling. I certainly had no need to. All accessible from underneath with the car raised up. Barney mentions the right angled drive here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/gearbox/gt325.htm Steve |
Steve Gyles |
Gerard, with the Hi-Gear kit you can do everything you need to do to fit the 5-speed gearbox from underneath the car. You just need to raise the car high enough to be able to operate an electric hand drill so that you can drill the 4 holes in the floorboard mounting rails so that you can fit the new rear gearbox mounting bracket.
I jacked my car up to to approx 18" off the ground which made it easy to get to everything beneath. This makes removing the lower setscrews from the gearbox bell-housing much easier. If you jack the car up any higher you will struggle to be able to reach anything inside the engine compartment without something to stand on. A couple of years ago, without any help, I first took my engine out and then the gearbox as separate units. If you do the job on your own I would recommend that you buy a "load leveler", which helps you to easily tilt the engine to line up with the bell housing when you are refitting it. They are not expensive, this is the exact one I bought. https://www.sgs-engineering.com/sll680-load-leveller?msclkid=568420f6c5fc19b8d4667d8c97c814e8&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping%20Ads&utm_term=4581664953836031&utm_content=Shopping Another tip is to take pictures of all of the nuts and bolts before you take them out so that you can remember which way to put them back in when you refit the engine. On my car, some of the bell-housing bolts would only fit from the one direction and it was impossible to install again them after the engine was re-attached to the gearbox. Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
Steve, That's great! I am also convinced that removing the engine and tranny is the way to go! I can get a 3/4 ton ratchet hoist for a reasonable price at a local tool store. My last decision is where to purchase the kit/transmission...? |
gerard hutchinson |
Gerard Buy it directly from HiGear. Cut out the middle man! You can get excellent technical support from Peter Gamble at HiGear. |
Bolney Coupe |
Thanks Bolney! |
gerard hutchinson |
Hello Bolney, I have sent a couple emails to Hi-Gear Engineering (info@higearengineering.co.uk) and received one automated response. Do you have a working email for Peter Gamble? Thanks |
gerard hutchinson |
I didn't want to post before as I wasn't, and still not, sure - IIRC, and I might have this totally wrong so don't take it as scaremongering - isn't Peter Gamble an elderly chap and now with his wife spends time abroad and was perhaps running down or giving up the business for whatever reasons. There was a thread about it somewhere on the BBS fairly recently but I can't find it. IIRC there was plenty of stock for the usual suppliers at the time. |
Nigel Atkins |
Nigel, I really really hope you are wrong! But the evidence fits your information. |
gerard hutchinson |
I'm pretty certain that Hi-Gear are still going strong.
Peter has just recently designed and manufactured a new 5-Speed gearbox to replace the Ford T9 box which is now becoming scarce. The last I heard, the new gearbox was being tested in a car. I'm not certain if it is on sale yet but knowing Hi-Gear stuff, it will be excellent, I have heard that it is an all synchro box and it has a higher 2nd gear ratio than the standard Ford T9, which equalises the gaps between all of the ratios. I would just keep trying to telephone him Gerard, I seem to recall that Peter much prefers the telephone rather than emails. Cheers Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
Steve Gyles, I am certainly interested in using the right angle speedometer adapter but I am unable to determine which one to order as there are several options listed on the Richfield website. I have requested assistance via email but am losing faith in emailing. LOL! I will try calling Colyn. Not sure how successful I will be calling from the US though. |
gerard hutchinson |
Colyn/Gerald, I could well be wrong with my memory, and not able to locate the thread - thinking about it perhaps it was Klassik Transmissions(?) apologies if so - and if I've got it wrong again with Klassik Transmissions. Colyn, by all synchro do you mean reverse too. The likes of BGH Geartech offer different gear ratios. Shame about the Mazda box as it's a nicer shift. Coming back to a Spridget after a while I thought the excellent Toyota boxes would be available but sadly not. |
Nigel Atkins |
Sorry.
Totally my mistake I was thinking of Klassic Transmission and NOT Hi-Gear. I found the post - " ... Ken at Klassik Transmissions, very nice guy but has had a rough time with family illness over last few years. Unless things have changed recently he appears to be semi-retired and just does the expensive profitable stuff like Jags and big Healeys, TRs etc.". Hopefully the bit about plenty of (Hi-Gear) stock I did remember correctly but in a different context. No wonder I couldn't find the thread or post using Hi-Gear. Apologies again for the confusion I caused, I should have held off longer with my post - but I'd still have remembered wrong company I'm sure - well not sure ... |
Nigel Atkins |
Gérard The archive thread to read on the richfield right angle drive is titled 'For the 5 speed men'. It covers the ratio required (1:1.4) and a very good post and photograph from John Francis who covers the filing of one corner to increase clearance with the tunnel. Steve |
Steve Gyles |
"One of the best investments I made was to buy an engine crane...and I have lifted a lot of other stuff in the garage including my lathe, compressor, heavy stuff in and out of the car boot (trunk) etc. Saved my back a lot of aches and pains. " Also useful for pulling tree stumps out of the ground. |
Dave O'Neill 2 |
Nigel,
I don't think the Mazda box has synchro on reverse, imagine selecting reverse whilst driving forwards at speed,I think it would result in a "grenaded" gearbox. :-) This reminds me of an experience I had many years ago as a passenger in an old Austin J2 van. There were two of us sitting behind in the back as the van was being driven very slowly up a steep hill with some very tight hairpin bends. Our driver was a bit distracted by the boisterous passengers and on one very tight hairpin, he tried to change down from 2nd gear to 1st gear. Somehow, he managed to do a perfect change into reverse gear which resulted in an instant reverse of direction and catapulted the rear passengers forwards over the front seats to end up crumpled up on top of the dashboard! It took quite a while to get us both back over into the rear seats, which wasn't helped by the fact that the four of us laughing so much that we couldn't really help each other. You also mentioned BGH Geartech in your post, I had them fix my Ford T9 5-speed when it began to jump out of 1st gear on the over-run. I also got them to fit heavy duty bearings, plus an extra high ratio 1st and 2nd gears to work better with my 1950cc engine. I would definitely recommend BGH Geartech as a quality supplier. Finally, in my earlier post I meant to include a link to Ken Klays posts in the MG Experience Forums about the problems he had in getting the Vitesse / Mazda Miata gearbox kit to fit his MGA. This is the link that I forgot to post. https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mga-forum.2/if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it-a-vitesse-5.3727676/ Hopefully, Vitesse have corrected these since then. Cheers Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
Colyn, I wasn't sure what you meant as the T9 has synchro on the 1st to 5th. I don't know/can't remember but reverse gear would have some sort of extra step on the shift but if not it'd just be the same as selecting the other gears out of rev range ratio, i.e. not a great deal of fun for engine, transmission, drive, tyres and driver. |
Nigel Atkins |
The Mazda box definitely has synchro on reverse--reverse is straight cut constant mesh and uses the same synchro hub as 5th gear
There is a tricky spring loaded blockout thingy in the selector set to stop you going from 5th to reverse--you have to go back into neutral then select reverse, but it's all on the same 5-R selector shaft--Not sure if you can go from R to 5th, but you wouldn't be trying that anyway Wouldn't it be magic if 1st and Rev were on the same selector-It'd be the duck's guts for motorkhanas being able to go backwards and forwards around the flags with a synchro reverse right there The T9 on the other hand has a normal sliding reverse idler to select reverse--no synchro The interesting ones are the little Ford Fiesta FWD boxes -they have a synchro on the end of the mainshaft for 5-R but it's not connected to reverse-it just slows the geartrain down-reverse is still a sliding idler setup---This setup causes lots of issues with owners stripping the edges off the idlers--When you go to select reverse it goes in in two steps and if unaware of the feel of it the tendancy is to select to the first step (synchro)but at that it's only just in gear by a little bit and when the clutch is released it jumps out and buzzes the end of the gear. I've seen them that burred over that they won't go into gear at all--stupid setup willy |
William Revit |
Thanks Willy, I thought I'd seen something on the Mazda box, possibly a video of its operation, but retaining the information is another matter.
You never need worry about selecting reverse on the T9 by mistake as it's a horrible selection, well it is on mine, often I select first instead by mistake. Even with the shortened lever it seems a stretch, with the standard lever I almost have to open the passenger's door first, hence the want for the quickshift lever as it reduces the lever by (20%?) 25%(?). |
Nigel Atkins |
Do you have to push down of lift for reverse
The R/F lever is a push down but on my elan it's a lift up and over which is a bit of a pain--if it was lift and pull towards it would be ok but it's lift, left and back, which is a bit back to frontish feeling I've been meaning to find a lighter spring for it for years, it's not so bad for me but wifey has struggled with it from day 1 I get a laugh on our local sprint days, every time there's a new guy turn up in a B you can hear the poor old gearbox getting the business- There's a left hand hairpin at the end of the top straight and they charge in there and back to 2nd but nearly every time a new fella turns up they yank the lever over too far and buzz reverse |
William Revit |
"...it's lift, left and back, which is a bit back to frontish feeling " Not so bad in a left-hand drive car, though. I guess it might depend on which country the 'box was designed in. |
Dave O'Neill 2 |
Willy, the T9 is push down, to left and up (regardless of if the steering wheel is on (your) correct side of the car, unless you, the seat or gearbox are facing backwards). |
Nigel Atkins |
I have still been unable to reach HiGear Engineering. Have any of you worked with and/or bought products from Frontline Developments? They advertise a conversion kit: http://www.frontlinedevelopments.com/part/5-speed-conversion-kit/ The offer the Ford and the Mazda gearboxes. |
gerard hutchinson |
Gerald, I would VERY STRONGLY recommended that you DO NOT buy a conversion direct but instead buy it through another supplier who will give full warranty. If you look up in the Archives of the midget and Sprite forum phases like ... well lets not go there again, suffice to say I bought directly from them and had it installed by them along with their Midget front and rear suspension conversions, I leave you to put 2 and 2 together from this, it will give you 4. |
Nigel Atkins |
Nigel, you make a very good point! Thank you. |
gerard hutchinson |
Many others would disagree with me, but some know, also some from personal experience. Do you not have vehicles that used the T9 box in your neck of the woods, and there must be lots of Miata boxes around. As the A is such a light car and unless it has a bigger engine or will be towing then you could probably like my mate get away with just a second hand T9 without even worrying about getting it reconditioned. |
Nigel Atkins |
Many others would disagree with me, but some know, also some from personal experience. Do you not have vehicles that used the T9 box in your neck of the woods, and there must be lots of Miata boxes around. As the A is such a light car and unless it has a bigger engine or will be towing then you could probably like my mate get away with just a second hand T9 without even worrying about getting it reconditioned, and probably the same with the Mazda but I don't know. |
Nigel Atkins |
Gerard,
I am re-posting the link to the MG Experience thread in May 2018 about the problems that Ken Klay had with the Frontline Engineering kit for fitting the Miata gearbox to his MGA. Sorry if you have already read through it but it does tell of some serious challenges that he faced. https://www.mgexp.com/forum/mga-forum.2/if-it-aint-broke-dont-fix-it-a-vitesse-5.3727676/ Ken had some MAJOR problems fitting this kit to his MGA and he lists these in this thread. IIRC, he had to cut out holes in the transmission tunnel to get the box to actually fit into his car. Frontline may well have modified their kit since then to make the fitting easier but I haven't heard anything about this since the thread was posted. I would strongly recommend that you have a look at this and contact Frontline to question them about those problems before you spend your money. I will try to telephone High Gear from the UK to see if they are still up and running and I will let you know what happens. Cheers Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
Nigel Atkins... do I get a tone in your comments that there have been some sort of problems with Hi-Gear? Peter Gamble would be one of the most honest and reliable man I have ever come across. I have NEVER been unable to contact him by phone, anytime of the day from Australia. His products are faultless, and even after making 5000 kits Worldwide, he still stands by every single item in that kit! |
Gary Lock |
Gary, no sorry if I've misled you, I've never dealt with Hi-Gear. I wish he did conversions for my Spridgets then I could have bought his instead of one direct from FL. I was referring to Frontline. Reverse your comments about Peter Gamble and apply then to the two in FL. It'd be a waste of time ringing them as they are polished professionals at marketing and sales as this is where their total expertise lies. |
Nigel Atkins |
Gerald,
just to be clear - Based on what I've read I would very happily buy a kit from Hi-Gear directly (if they're available directly) or a Hi-Gear kit from another source. I have, very unhappily for me, bought directly from Frontline and had installed by them their Midget 1275 5-speed conversion (along with front and rear suspension and other work) and returned to try for rectifications to the gearbox conversion, unsuccessfully. Personally I wouldn't piss on Tim or Ed if they were on fire (a saying Gary may have heard more than yourself perhaps). |
Nigel Atkins |
Gary Hi-Gear's website now says "Over 9000 conversions sold to date". |
Dave O'Neill 2 |
HiGear kits are available directly from Peter Gamble, help and advice too. |
Bolney Coupe |
Call Hi-Gear (Peter Gamble) direct and order through him. The phone call from the States isn't that expensive and you'll save roughly $1000 rather than buying thru Moss...and he warrants it himself.
I have two 1949 MG TC's with the Ford T-9's and bought both thru Peter directly. One I had sitting on a shelf for approximately 4 years before I installed it. After installation there was a noise when decelerating...I called Peter, he verified that I had bought it from him, sent me a new transmission and arranged for the bad one to be returned. All I paid was return shipping. Deal direct! |
Gene Gillam |
This thread was discussed between 11/09/2019 and 03/10/2019
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