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MG MGA - Article in NAMGAR about engine oil
| Fascinating article in the current NAMGAR magazine about the latest and greatest in engine oils causing cam and flat tappet failures during break-in due the removal of a zinc compound because of a EPA ruling affecting oils of less than 40W. They quoted a response from Castrol saying that Castrol was recommending that we use the following oils -best oil is first, gets worse as you go down the list Castrol GTX20W-50 (SL SM) Castrol GTX Diesel 15W-40 (C14,CH4,CG4,CF,SL) Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W-50 (SL,SM) Castrol HD 30 (SL,SM) Castrol HD 40 (SL,SM) Castrol Syntec Blend Truck 15W-40 (C14,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL, (Semi-synthetic) Castrol Tection Extra 15W-40 (C14Plus, C14, CH4,CG4,CF4 SL) |
| gil |
| This is not good news to me ,as I just put my Mga Coupe on the road, and it is running 600 miles now .....on castrol 10/30w. I will now make the change to diesel oil and hope there is no damage done. Gordon |
| Gordon Harrison |
| Gord, I didn't know you'd put a diesel in your car? Seriously, why wouldn't you put in Castrol GTX 20w-50? |
| Derek Nicholson |
| Gordon- if you wish, I can scan the article and E-mail it to you. / gil |
| gil |
| Exactly Derek - Castrol GTX 20/50 is the oil of choice for me ( or Duckhams 20/50 if that is available) - cheers Cam |
| Cam Cunningham |
| Shell Rotella 15-40 Diesel oil. I heard about this a year ago. But it take someone like NAMGAR to wake every body up. Cliff(SC) |
| Jones |
| Before everyone runs off in a panic, I think the operative term here is "during break-in. If you've got a motor that's running fine and hasn't been recently rebuilt I wouldn't get too concerned. GTF |
| G T Foster |
| OK, I haven't read this article, but can someone give me the Readers Digest version so I can get an idea as to why I would want to run an oil formulated for a diesel? Derek (A.K.A. Baffled in the cold!) |
| Derek Nicholson |
| Derek, I'll try--- the first paragraph of the article by Keith Ansell in the NAMGAR magazine reads "About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese, and/or phosphates reduce the effectivness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere" It then goes on to say "A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of the problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type." It goes on to say that he contacted camshaft suppliers, oil manufacturers, etc. etc. and the consensus was that the removal of the zinc compound was causing lifter/camshaft failures in engines that have flat lifters. This only applies to oils of less than 40weight viscosity. Hope this helps. / gil P.S. If you wish, I can scan the whole article and E-mail it to you- |
| gil |
| Gil, I'd love to have a copy to read. But does Diesel Oil have any of the missing elements? That's what's got me most perplexed! |
| Derek Nicholson |
| Derek- It says that the first page went thru ok, but it keeps rejecting the second page..reason is "OTHER ADDRESS STATUS" and I don't know what that means. / gil |
| gil |
| Thanks to the sender of the article. |
| Derek Nicholson |
| I don't know if I can add any benefit to this thread , but for what its worth from this side of the pond- if you want a good 20w-50 oil, I use Ford Motor Company, "Super Motor Oil Multigrade 20w-50". Is this same oil available to you guys? I use it for my Vintage MG, MGC, MG Y and MGB. Cheers. Keith |
| Keith D Herkes |
| This subject has been running as a thread on the TD-TF Section for a month now. 92 posts. I haven't had a chance to read it and check all the links in the post, but as I scrolled quickly down the page, I happened to stop at a post the included the words "urban legend". So for now, I don't plan to panic. Besides, unfortunately all the LBCs are taking their long Winter naps. |
| Derek Nicholson |
| I assume the reference is to the article below, however I would question using a SM oil in any enhanced engine as race oils contain much higher ZDDP than Diesel oil. However more doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. It is also used as an anti oxidant and high zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling. This article adds a different slant http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html Soot is forced into the oil in a diesel engine and additional detergents are required and oil chemistry is complex, however I am not aware of any issues arising from using a diesel oil. http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf Uprated cams require more ZDDP and look to Race Bike Diesel oil, but in general the following should apply from the Penrite site An engine oil that contains about 0.1% phosphorus or higher, will easily provide the required anti wear properties for older engines. The step from API SH to API SL was accomplished by a combination of new additives or adding additional anti wear and anti oxidant to existing blends. These were not phosphorus based, but used organic molybdenum additives (not molybdenum disulphide - aftermarket oil additive), to keep phosphorus levels at 0.1%. Now we have API SM – for the first time, the limit on phosphorus is from 0.06-0.08%. There are industry concerns about the applicability of these oils in older engines. However, the limit only applies to 0W-20, 0W-30, 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils (so called “ILSAC” grades). Any other grades are exempt from this. Therefore even blanket statements about API SM oils will be incorrect and further research will be needed by the end user. There is one other factor with non-ILSAC oil grades. If they also have the European ACEA A2/A3 with B2/B3 or B4 performance levels, phosphorus levels will also be at 0.10 % to 0.12% as their tests have been more severe than the API for some time. Hence an oil that is SL (SM)/CF/A3/B3 also well exceeds the anti-wear requirements for older engines. The irony is that API SF and SG oils formulated in recent years usually have phosphorus contents of around 0.08% (usually 0.1% maximum) anyway due to other advances in technology, unless the blender chooses to add extra additive. OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!! By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc. About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP) in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere. A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break in procedures. This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then the bad news came out: It’s today’s “modern” API (American Petroleum Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines. Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance (Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won’t fail in an unreasonably short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat tappet engines. Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars (Redline). Their response: “We are well aware of the problem and we still use the correct amounts of those additives in our products”. They continued to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don’t have to test and comply. Their oils were NOT the “new, improved and approved” ones that destroy flat tappet engines! “We just build the best lubricants possible”. Sounds stupid, doesn’t it, New-Approved but inferior products, but it seems to be true for our cars. To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to “warn us” of the problem of the NEW oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! “The reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early destruction of cams and followers”. They are recommending that, for now at least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement: Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at auto stores and gas stations. This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding. Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was “VERY” aware of this problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn’t rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written an article for the British Bike community that verify all the “bad news” we have been finding. Comp Cams put out “#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts”. They have both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the bulletin was “While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from the off the–shelf oil”. Next question: Now what do we do? From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) “Use oils rated for diesel use”, Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with. From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): “use our additive” for at least the first 500 miles. From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil, it’s only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem seems to be something GM has known about for some time!). From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we need! From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and Industrial oils: “After over a week of contacts we have verified that the major oil companies are aware of the problem”. “The representatives of the oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no knowledge of formulation”. The only major oil companies they were aware of for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an “Off Road 20W-50” and Redline. From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils. Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum, is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to 18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they produce. Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us money and time. Be aware that “New and Improved”, or even products we have been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn’t the same stuff we were getting even a year ago. For the cars that use “engine oil” in their gearboxes this may even pose a problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the criteria are from General Motors and Redline. If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are changing and we MUST meet the challenge. Keith Ansell, President Foreign Parts Positively, Inc. www.ForeignPartsPositively.com |
| Paul Wiley |
| Cam I believe Duckhams has gone now. I use Millers 20/50 Classic Engine Oil or Penrite 20/60 and avoid the synthetics. Pete |
| Pete Tipping |
| I have nothing to offer on the subject of this thread other than I used an assembly grease when I rebuilt my engine, then used Millers mineral 20/50 until run in before going to a semi synthetic 20/50. Engine still great after 15,000 miles, many of those miles were short 3.5 mile commutes from cold, not ideal for wear and tear. My main input is to pick up on and expand on Derek's 'Urban Legend'. I get the feeling that far too many people see something in print on the internet and take it as the gospel truth. I work in military intelligence/analysis. Probably 90% of the sites I trawl through contain what I would term secondary intelligence, that is data copied from other sources. The trouble is that you see similar data from a dozen sites and get drawn into the trap of believing that with so much commonality of agreement it must be fact. The best example in my sphere of interest is the CIA World Factbook. It is an excellent site. But once you have browsed it you will be amazed how much its data you find copied - by the million. Most of it is good data, but the errors get copied too! - by the million. Let's not forget that the UK allegedly went to war in Iraq on an 'Urban Myth' copied from the internet by a Ministry of Defence Staff Officer. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Military Intelligence.--- now there's an oxymoron !!! |
| george |
| George Okay, good call. Defence analyst - I'm a civilian now! Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Very confusing and hard to understand all of the finer points, but I get the idea that leaning to the side of precaution is better than waiting for the "urban legend" to destroy my new engine. I will change the oil in my Coupe to diesel rated, for the rest of the breakin period. It is not so hard for me to do as my daughter has a Jetta diesel and this will save having to purchase different types of oil. TWO QUESTIONS: When I go the diesel road what should I do regarding the oil filter? Standard or Diesel filter? And would it be advisable to just continue on and use diesel oil from now on in? Thank you Gordon |
| Gordon Harrison |
| Great, I just FINISHED the first 1,000 miles on my rebuilt Coupe engine using Castrol 10W30. And, I just changed the oil to a fresh batch of 10W30 for the winter. I planned on making the switch to 20W50 in late spring. Now what will I do... M.D. '57 Coupe |
| M. D. |
| M.D. You might want to consider adding that Chevrolet additive that is mentioned in the article. It says it is called EOS and costs around $12.00. Either that or go ahead and change the oil to the 20W-50 you were going to use. (which is probably what I would do) Please let us know what you decide. / gil |
| gil |
| Pete - I got 2 5litre cans (plastic) of Duckhams 20/50 at a car show last summer - hope it was the genuine article - seems OK though, but I do give it a change twice a year ( every 1500 miles)- cheers Cam |
| Cam Cunningham |
| Gorden The newer Diesel oils are certainly now available in US but are still a good choice for continued use. http://www.lubrizol.com/CJ-4/faq.asp This is another good article although perhaps not 100% correct and covers filters which also wok on a gravel bed effect http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html If the 10W30 is SM the oil is tested on a flat tappet engine as below SL test http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTest...st/default.htm SM test http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTest...st/default.htm Although a harder test it appears to allow 3x more cam wear for a pass. However a SM product may offer better performance around town despite reduced ZDDP, the reason for this may be a switch between the high temp acting ZDDP to the low temp acting ZDDP with the addition of a small % of ester oil. If on a short OCI and not thrashing the car it should not be a major issue but you could top up ZDDP levels with an additive. |
| Paul Wiley |
| What ever happened to the use of "non-detergent" oil for engine break in ? I believe that there were several articles in the BBS about this. |
| DA MacFarlane |
| Kendall GT-1 20W50 still lists a zinc content of .113%. I have been using this for years with no problems. Their Deisel oils list a zinc content of .114%. |
| John H |
| I always use Valvoline 20w/50 racing oil which is API SL spec, changed once a year (2500ish miles). Low viscosity oils and synthetics aren't really suitable for 'old technology' engines. Terry |
| Terry Drinkwater |
| Check this out folk's. http://www.amsoil.com/faqs/faq2.aspx What ya got ta lose? SF Dwight |
| DCM McCullough |
| We could stand to lose the repetitive unsolicited and unpaid commerical advertisements on the non-commercial forum. |
| Barney Gaylord |
| We're sick of you Dwight, your last commercial got pulled. |
| Steve Meline |
This thread was discussed between 07/12/2006 and 17/12/2006
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