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MG MGA - Boycott BP

This is not an MG issue, but one that does pertain to driving your MG. If you care about the environment this is an article that you really need to read:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-bp_01aug01,1,2316873.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

There is a boycott of BP here in the Chicagoland area, and it's gaining strength. The city council has stopped usage of BP fuel in city vehicles. As a consumer, you vote every day. The best way to show BP that we won't stand for increased polluting of one of our largest natural resources is to stop buying from them. I ask you, when purchasing gas for the remainder of the driving season, that you not choose BP and instead buy from one of their competitors across the street. As a community that regularly consumes fuel, we could help make an impact. They are already feeling the pressure from local governments and a swipe at their pocketbook will only help get them to realize that we are serious about protecting our lake.

Thanks for listening.
Mark
Mark J Michalak

Mark

You would also have to boycott Castrol - BP makes Castrol products.

Rick
Rick Brown

The article requires registration at that website to view (no thanks). I'm personally inclined to support BP, since they have been good for my state.
Del Rawlins

For those of us who don't know what the issue is, and don't want to register with unknown websites, could you turn down the volatile rhetoric and summarize the issue? Personally, I don't have much patience with "blind" links in mailing list or bulletin board postings anyway, but since we're all friends here I'm willing to listen if you're willing to talk... :-)

David Breneman

As short as I can make it: BP has cut a deal with the state of Indiana to allow BP to increase dumping of pollutants into Lake Michigan as part of a plant expansion program. This is within the prescribed maximum allowed by current law, but is still an increase from prior levels, which is supposed to be taboo by federal EPA guidelines. So far the EPA has side-stepped, deferring to the Indiana decision (contrary to federal congressional wishes). Residents of Indiana, Michigan, Illinois and Wisconsin, surrounding Lake Michigan, are not particularly happy about this new arrangement. Environmentalists in general are also not happy. This might lead to a new act of congress to force the EPA to override the Indiana decision. Stay tuned to the nightly news for updates.
Barney Gaylord

Sounds like the issue should be with the politicians not the industrialists - I wonder who is taking a back hander on this one? I've fought a few environmetal battles locally and usually it entails getting the politicians on your side - cheers cam
Cam Cunningham

Could always move the plant to india and put it in their lakes, far better.
Realistic

Hi All

My water usage at my BP went up 100% and I received a warning from the local council. When I called them about the letter, they told me not to bother as I was still well below half I was allowed to use.
If BP are within existing limits, whats the problem? The limits may have to be changed. You can't blame the companies with expansion plans if they operate within the set limits.
My view, ofcourse.
David Godwin

For more information, go to: http://084.housedems.com/?p=141 where you will note some politicians are already at work on it.

As far as Castrol is concerned, at NAMGAR GT32 in British Columbia, Keith Ansell informed us that Castrol is no longer the same oil we've come to know and love. It no longer contains lead (ZDDP) which is required to make the lifters rotate on our narrow cam lobes. Among the new choices, Keith pointed out, is Valvoline VR1.

FWIW,
Allen
Allen Bachelder

Yes it has made the news up here. As I understand it BP put pressure on the Indiana legislature to go along with the deal.

Mark, I usually ignore boycott suggestions,and my local small town BP station is where I usually fill up,but yes,I believe I will go elsewhere.

We here in Michigan are proud of our Great Lakes. Rightly so too. Four out of five of them are on our shores.

One last comment,...they didn't name it Lake Wisconsin!!
w c wolcott

more enviro crap from leftist commies.
wyatt

very good,....I see the swine has chosen to follow me around the board. The man is very sick.
wc wolcott

Sorry, I didn't realize registration was required to view that article (I already am subscribed to the Tribune). Everything Barney said is absolutely correct, and to answer the question of "If it's within legal limits, what's the problem?": The answer is simply that they are attempting to dump more pollution than they have been previously, and regardless of the limits, it's a BIG increase in wastewater. 54% more ammonia (1500 lbs per day) and 34% more suspendid solids. Additionally, Indiana exempted them from meeting the current Mercury dumping standards, which should be 8/100ths of a pound per year. But for five years they will be permitted to dump two pounds of Mercury per year. Just because its legal doesn't mean its OK, as David pointed out sometimes there is the need for progressive legislation.

Anyway, I am not an activist of any kind and my intent was certainly not to set off a political or environmental debate. I fully understand that this is a car forum and not anything else, I'm just asking a favor from some other drivers on behalf of everyone on the Great Lakes.

Safety Fast
Mark
Mark

I remember people used to swim in Lake Michigan. They don't go in now because of sewage dumping. Over the years things slowly change and people forget.
What gets me is the new BP additive called 'Invigorate'. Buy only our product longer for your benefit.
Chuck Collins

You can't really fault them for trying to do this through the proper channels and procedures. If you have proof that they are just dumping stuff in violation of the law, it will be time to get upset. Our government employs people whose job it is to determine what amount of discharge is harmful, and if they see a danger, they will no doubt deny the request. And I would be a bit surprised if most of the people in this thread calling for a boycott, have that sort of expertise, or access to the necessary data.

Bottom line, our country NEEDS more gasoline refining capacity. The powers that be have decided that no new refineries can be built, so the only solution available is to expand the older, existing refineries. The advance of technology being what it is, they could probably do a better and cleaner job if they were allowed to start from scratch. But that is politically impossible, so the irony is that we will end up increasing the capacity of aging refineries using 1970s technology, all in the name of protecting the environment.

Furthermore, I bet that a lot of the same people calling for a boycott of BP, have also in the past called for boycotts of gas companies in order to protest high gasoline prices. High gas prices, of course, are caused in part by the lack of refining capacity.
Del Rawlins

Chuck, maybe down by Chicago you cant swim,as my daughter who lives there tells me.But over here its beautiful,clear to a depth of 6/8 ft. Farther north even better.
Del, I have never boycotted anything,I am a capitalist,but its never to late to start. You are right,I have little expertise in the matter.But I also know regs can be suspended. Another Bottom line is the country needs the Great Lakes,as much or more than increased oil out put.The arid west has their greedy eyes looking for ways to tap into them.
Also,lets not forget our friends to the north, Canada.They have an equal stake in the matter.I would like to know what they think.
wc wolcott

You are leaping to the unsupported conclusion that the requested increase in waste discharge will have an appreciable effect on the health of the lakes one way or the other. I don't know whether it will or not, but I do know enough to know that it is a question best left answered by the toxicologists and environmental engineers.

Even if you insist on substituting your emotion for a scientific conclusion, the proper place to apply pressure is on the regulatory body actually making the decision whether or not to allow the requested increase. Boycotting a company which is attempting to play by the rules is counterproductive, especially as this appears to still be only a proposal. Penalizing those who try to follow the law and work within the system, only serves to encourage operating outside of the law. If you are going to get screwed anyway, why not? Deny the application if you must, but don't try to penalize them for making a request.
Del Rawlins

' Just to correct my last post before somebody else points out my error: the element now missing in Castrol 20-50 is zinc, not lead.

Allen
Allen Bachelder

The likes of all you PC dumbass make me sick

We need gas and we will have gas leave the enviro garbage to europe lefties and Gore.

Check out this thread in Flamewars show what they know
Kyoto destroyed the Ozone
wyatt

Yes, absolutely BP is a company that needs our support. They only make how many billions of dollars a year? They should be allowed to make as much as they want, we live in a capitalist society therefore these are the rules. And yes our government will protect us, for they are infallible, and not at all corruptible by campaign money and corporate greed.

:)

(thanks Barney G. I would rather listen to you than Fox News...please keep us informed)
Jim P

Well Del, you have a reasoned argument.I cant argue with your suggestions.But sometimes emotions have their place also.For instance,it stopped oil drilling in the Great Lakes. Even though we were assured it was safe to do so.We did not want to see the derricks/platforms...it would have been emotionaly upsetting. They didn't go up,our country did not grind to a halt.

Bob Welch,get good medical help now.
wc wolcott

WC, you are correct, emotions play a huge part in the forming of our national policies. The "Not in my backyard" feeling has certainly saved the beauty of much of our coastlines, but we forget that the cost is reliance on oil from other countries which sometimes is a problem. We will all face some really tough questions on energy very soon, and our options are pretty well defined already unless there's some miracle breakthrough we'll have to radically reduce our consumption to the detriment of our economy, or start developing our domestic resources. Of course third option is to in essence sell ourselves to foreign interests to get our fix of oil. I know this sounds overly dramatic, but if many of you are in my age range (60 ish) you've already seen us become pretty dependent in the last 30 or so years and almost cripple our domestic oil industry with legislation. I'm not a supporter of 'big oil' but it's something we all use and need at this time and we should at least approach the problems logically considering they're so important to our long term survival.
Bill Young

Chicago dumps less sewage than Milwaukee does! Sometimes it is really nasty looking and legal.

My Boycott is I use less gas from everyone that sells it. I always did. My other car is not a truck!
Chuck Collins

The most environmentally friendly (and long-term commercially and economically sensible) approach is to use resources economically, and use renewable alternatives where available. That means (at least to me) that a daily transport that achieves 10MPG is environmentally stupid unless you are regularly in need of something that can climb dirt tracks or pull tree stumps, tow a horse trailer etc. To commute with such a beast on a highway, or to take children 1 mile to school (when they could walk) is just irresponsible. Huge engined cars and trucks are very popular, but simply unsustainable in the long term.

Energy efficiency means that in buildings, windows and doors should seal properly (I have often been simply astonished at the very poor quality of many buildings on my many trips to the USA), and that insulation should be of the right standard. If energy is cheap, then no-one is ever motivated to make any cost saving measures, because you can never recoup the investment.

I have just started testing LED light bulbs at home: 4W consumption instead of 60W per bulb in a track lighting system makes a huge difference in the speed the meter spins... It's a cost that will take a few years to recoup, but if everyone was to do the same then we would not need to be thinking about building extra power stations here.

If we pollute and abuse our world without consideration for our near term and long term futures, what example does that send to the developing world - which in the next 10-20 years will want to achieve a "western" standard of living, with all the attendant resource consumption that comes with it. There are alternatives to energy issues that do not imply economic melt-down, we just have to each take responsibility for our own actions and make sure that we individually reduce our own consumption (and encourage others to do the same). To quote the old adage - how do you eat an Elephant? One bite at a time. It's a big problem that can only be solved in small steps (but we need to start on pretty quickly). To me that means no gas-guzzlers (Jeep, Ford, Range Rover, Chrysler, Mercedes whatever), energy efficient homes and offices, and alternative energy sources that do not drive up the cost of food staples in the less developed world. We just have to use less, which means achieving the same effect with smaller amounts of energy. That means investment in new energy sources too (for example huge steps are being made in solar cell technology, and one proposal I saw was to cover large areas of North Africa with solar cell farms and lay a cable across to Gibraltar to connect these with the European high tension grid. Oil-free environmentally friendly energy...)

And if this thesis leads some (yes I mean you Wyatt) to insult the people proposing such a responsible and moderate approach, then I can only suggest you start looking at a wider range of sources than Fox and the oil companies.
dominic clancy

As many have rightly percieved this is a major problem. Effectively those people "wasting" fuel and energy as described by Dominic are probably responsible for the increased polution needed by the USA at michigan. Unfortunately in the past the west has transported this problem to the third world to allow them to suffer for our extravigance well it looks like the buck may soon stop here.

The world needs to have a common goal for us all to agree upon whether that be europe, usa, china asia or where ever.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

Didn't read all the posts, but I've got the gist of the situation. Increased ammonia levels may kill off fish. It's not just humans that will be affected. 2 pounds of mercury will translate to fairly high ppm levels if fully absorbed, and if not, the fish will again have problems. Already there are warnings about mercury in Great Lakes fish, and there is no reason to increase allowable discharge amounts, especially if it can be prevented. BTW, regarding mercury, if you have mercury 'energy saving' bulbs at home, consider what that will do to our landfills.
Mike Parker

dominic,... I post as wc wolcott mich or michigan on all forums other than flame wars. I post as wyatt mi on flame wars only.I am not a frequent poster here but I do post.Please note that I have never used foul or argumentitive language in my posts here.I post here to offer what help I can.
The post here by wyatt mi was NOT me. It was that insane lunatic Bob Welch, who has a psychotic obsession with me. He has now followed me to other forums posing as me.He has been doing it for many many months. He denies it of course but others who post on these forums knows his midus operandi.I know his real name because I asked,and was told by aquantincess of his who he was...and he was NOT happy to have his name reveled.
I am sorry that this has happened here on this forum,its sickining, but I am at a loss as what to do or how to stop it.
He ultimate plan is to drive me off this MG site,this is not a guess, he has expressly said so, and posted it on flame wars for all to see many months ago.For those that may doubt my claims,please take a trip to flame wars and see the thread.."TWATY I'm ERE"..(a play on my name).It was informing me of his return from his vacation,and the harrasment shall begin again. I have NO trouble dealing with this fool,I do have a problem with his bringing his hatred to other forums.
Its a sad day,when this stuff makes it to this forum.
wc wolcott

One last tip. In the wyatt mi post,"the likes of all you" thats an English expression, NOT a typical American expression.
wc wolcott

BP just got a new CEO because the previous leader failed to invest in infrastructure and safety.

This became obvious when BP's Texas refinery exploded killing 15 workers and injuring 450+ others and their Alaskan Pipeline sprung leaks and was shut down. “After Action Studies” revealed that the company had severely neglected refinery and pipeline maintenance and modernization. Now they are trying to play catch up by making large investments in their refineries and pipelines which should have been made long ago.

BP's short sighted management decisions have placed our communities at risk, upset shareholders, and risked national security for quick profits.

It’s now time to make those deferred investments in the Whiting Refinery and do it correctly without cutting more corners for short term gains. Pollution control investments should not be an after thought in this industry.

John

By the way, a helpful hint.Please check out the poster...Bob(robert)yes Y8 is toast again:),England....

Y8 =....wyatt...

I am open to suggestions.
wyatt

To the real wc wolcott, - The first thing to do is to take the bother to always log in and post as a member. It only takes a few extra seconds to make a shortcut link to the auto-log-in page of the server, followed by touch Enter, then click on BBS. Since logging in requires a password, that other !@#$%^&* would be identified as non-member.
Barney Gaylord

I am afraid you're peeing into the wind asking Wyatt to be logical, Barney. :-)
Ddraig

Fraid Dd is right Barney we have explained that idea to Wyatt on numerous occassions with no acceptance, however we must simply ignore non member posts as the trolls that they are.

Mark simply out of interest do you drive a truck?

The problem with environmental issues is always the same, there is NO PROFIT in being a clean producer. If we put legislation in place to force these companies to clean up their act they simply move to a country where the people are not organised enough to stop their polluting and welcome the jobs and prosperity.

Naturally that only leaves one option which is world wide control, of which we have no hope.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

Thanks Barney ,I will try to remember to do just that. Although when I log on it has made little difference so far. The thrill of anonyomous deceit is far to powerful for some to overcome.
This is my first real experience with psychotic behaviour,and I must say,it is a bit like the movies.

Excellent post Bob Welch,.."Bob (robert)yes Y8 is toast again:),England".... please explain that suggestion to your sick twisted alter ego.
WYATT WOLCOTT

It is now available on line and can be bought,in the near future. A car that runs on COMPRESSED AIR. not only is the design revoloutionary but the cost is far from expensive. This type of car and far sighted design WILL help reduce our need for oil products. The quetsion is will the compressed air car sell.
In Europe small distances, can take you to many different cities,here in Canada for me to go to New York City is a 6 hours drive and a tank of gas. I do not think this compressed air car will be a big seller (in North America) except for local commutting but I congratulate the company doing the work for their intitative.

PS: Dominic, Which is better? A 1994 Jeep kept in good order for the past 13 yrs or a new new VW diesel bought every 4 yrs. It is said that the cost of producing a new car is more pollutive than the actual use of the car.

Gordon
Gordon Harrison

Bob,

Were you inquiring into my profession or my personal mode of transportation? Either way, the answer is no. I live in the city, and I don't quite understand people who live in big cities and drive pickup trucks or large SUVs. Unless of course they're contractors and need it for work.
Mark

Some of us drive on snow and ice 6 months of the year. Otherwise I would be driving a hardtop B instead of a modified Jeep Wrangler.
Del Rawlins

Apologies to the real Wyatt. Del, I did make reasonable allowance for use of a truck in circumstances like yours. There's absolutely no justification for most people to drive something like a Porsche Cayenne in LA or London. And yes there is an argument that the production of a new car is more energy intensive than using an old one till it drops dead. There was hope of worldwide conrol (Kyoto) until a certain idiot from Texas (and his cronies) refused to go along and pretended that it all doesn't matter.

dominic clancy

I voted for the idiot from Texas, twice. I'm upset at him over a number of things, but I suspect they are not the same things that get the Birkenstock set all wound up.

If a US president had signed that thing, it would have led to the 2nd American Revolution, and rightly so. What I or anyone else chooses to drive is none of your concern, nor anyone else's. I would still want to drive the hardtop B if it only got the same 15 miles to the gallon as my Jeep. Unfortunately, I don't currently have the garage space to store another vehicle that can only be used in the summer.

Yeah, many of the people who drive large vehicles in the city have stupid reasons for doing so. I would say the same thing about people who put V-8 engines into MGAs. Luckily, none of us have the right to exercise that kind of control over each other's lives. I advise you to be careful in surrendering your freedom to choose to any government; you might not like the result. To you it may seem reasonable to limit the size or type of car another man may own, but to another it could be equally reasonable to eliminate all non-essential vehicles, or disallow the ownership of more vehicles than you can justify a need for. That means that your beloved MGA will go away, and eventually be crushed (er, recycled), all in the name of the environment.

To be honest, I'm quite surprised to find somebody from Switzerland in favor of surrendering any amount of sovereignty to an outside power. You have an enviable history of resistance to that sort of thing, but I guess times have changed.
Del Rawlins

Well Dell you have been mislead somehow. We in europe have been signed up for sometime now and non of those horror stories that you have suggested have actually happened.

So what do we know?

We all know that those of us who are alive now have nothing to worry about by climate change and carbon fuel running out, because it wont.

However it is not the case for our grand children. The rate we are going except for the very dense amongst us here, we will have used up all reserves and changed the climate beyond the ability of anyone to predict within the next 100 years.

As the people in Michigan have finally realised it has to stop. We must start to use energy wisely, we must start to pay for the production and cleaning of the harmful effects of "cheap" energy. If that means the cost of fuel rises to pay for cleaner production then so be it. If that means we have to develope clean public transport then so be it.

As I said there is no profit in the environment we have to all make a pledge to save our world, not for us but for our children's children. Some decisions are hard to take, medicine often is but it has to be taken for your overall health.

Alternatively we can hide our heads in the sand and enjoy life to the full and care not for our grand children.

The choice is easy.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

The State of Michigan's motto..."if you seek a beautiful peninsula look about you"...the citizens of Michigan have been proud enviornmentalists long before it became in vogue. There is not now,..nor has there ever been a "finally" anything concerning our beautiful states environmental health. Tourism is one of our major sources of income. With a shoreline second only to Alaska,and a huge portion of the worlds fresh water.We the people of Michigan need no lectures on enviromentailism. Just this week our state atty general proposed and got restrictions on international ships dumping their balast water in our Great Lakes.The 1st in the nation and sure to be challenged by the FTC or ICC. Than you very much.
WYATT WOLCOTT

Well that is wonderful, may I be the first to give you thanks wyatt.
Firstly we now know it is you and not some idiotic right wing troll using the name wyatt mi. well done

And secondly for pointing out all those anti environmental cheap fixes that the good people of Michigan have realised are not good for the world's and their environment. What is good for the lakes is equally as good for the rest of the world we need people like you wyatt to champion these very restrictive measures. We all thank you and wish you luck.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

I can see that you have bought into the whole "man made climate change" religion, which has as much basis in fact as any other religion. However, even in the unlikely event that we are causing global warming, I am all in favor of that.

Alternate fuels will happen when it is time for them. Right now, fossil fuel prices are such that it isn't economically worthwhile to develop alternate fuels on a widespread scale. If and when the supply of fossil fuels begin to be depleted, the price will go up, and the research needed to find replacement fuels will be economically viable. Actually, a lot of the technology already exists, but just isn't cost effective given current fuel prices. I think it would be ironic if in the drive to make our oil last longer, we actually postponed the introduction of cleaner energy sources, for purely economic reasons.

And besides, I wouldn't place a lot of faith in any of the publicized estimates of the amount of oil remaining. There is absolutely NO incentive for oil producers to tell us how much oil they really know about, and several disincentives which would incline them to keep that information to themselves.
Del Rawlins

In fairness Del I would not totally disagree with the points you have made. Indeed the possibility of them becoming correct I would suggest is fairly high, lets hope so!

However you have failed to highlight one problem and that is the whole reason for this thread. We are causing polution with using cheap fuel. This polution is poisoning the "Great Lakes" and also other areas of the world. The treaty which was agreed had measures to stop this polution from occuring by charging the users and causers of the polution to fund the clean up.

Surely you can sympathise with the people of Michigan and the rest of us in the world who need protection from these poluters.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

Fellows I do tend to accept scientific evidence but does anyone remember back not too long ago we were being told that we could expect another ice age. Odd ain't it?
Baz

Del does have a point. We're going to keep using fossil fuels until we just can't anymore, unless there's a sea change in attitude towards developing alternative fuels. Take hybrid cars- they're more expensive initially than their gasoline counterparts. However even if I don't recoup my money in gas usage over the period that I drive that car, I'm still willing to pay more for it because as a consumer I'm expressing my desire for a vehicle that consumes less fossil fuel and/or uses some sort of alternative fuel. It's going to be expensive to wean the country off of fossil fuel. It's going to take a lot of money, a lot of determination, and a lot of open-mindedness on the part of legislators and consumers. But I think now is the time to start that process, as opposed to years or generations down the line.

But going back to what Bob said, in the right here and now, we need to do what we can to stop pollution one step at a time. Yes, the Lake Michigan dumping is a by-product of the rather large issue of fossil fuel consumption, and that rather large issue needs to be dealt with. But that doesn't mean we should ignore the side effects in the meantime. Since we don't have representation in the state of Indiana and the federal government via the E.P.A. has let us down, we simply refuse to give any more money to the company that will dump more contaminates into the lake that we drink from.
Mark

Spot on Mark but polution is happening around the globe and we must ensure the problems are not simply moved somewhere else. The line needs to be drawn now so we can begin our education.
Baz does your comment mean that the Lakes IYO are NOT being poluted and you do not believe the hype?
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

Anybody contact Al Gore?
Tony Giordano

No Bob, I believe we are in a global disaster and I do not think it can be reversible because of the sloth of all nations to see the danger. The bloody polar bears are drowning because there's not enough ice flows for them. The penguin population is down in many species by 60%. Where there used to be glaciers now there is baron ground. None the less what ever did happen to all those alerts of a few years ago telling us to expect another ice age - currius, wot?
Baz

Tony, politics aside, have you seen Gore's film? I beliefe he's right on. You know, I'm not sure we should be mucking up the MGA board with this stuff.
Baz

This is the sort of thing that could be discussed on flame wars. Unfortunately that forum has lost all sense of decorum. There are no civil discussions there anymore.
R J Brown

Do something about it then.
Ddraig

I agree RJ. I don't post on FW. The Horizon site has a bunch of fine guys and dolls on it though.
Baz

We ain't good guys and gals well gays anyway on flamewars. :-)
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

I see you fingered that out, Bob.
:>))

Hey, but no one has an answer for me about the second ice age?
Baz

i thought this was a clasic car forum?
p chamberlain

OK Baz, good question...but starting from which date?
WYATT WOLCOTT

I don't know Wyatt. I think it may have been something like ten to fifteen years ago and I don't remember what the evidence was supposed to be.
And this conversation should not be here - put it on Horizon as long as there's no nastiness in the messages.
Baz

Hi Baz - you enquired about the next ice age (not the 2nd as there have been many more than that as they seem to occur every 100k years or so )- I was also told that this could happen soon (within the next 1000 years) when I was at school back in the early 60s. So what happened with global warming? - apparently ice ages are often preceded by global warming - the arctic warms up - this then affects the Gulf Stream flowing up from the equator which slows down and eventually stops so the warming effect of the Gulf stream has gone - so the arctic then proceeds to cool down again so all of us in Northern Europe ( and I presume Canada, Scandinavia + Russia)freeze to death - unfortunately no one knows the time scale of this cooling effect - not my theory but something that I have picked up in my reading - so get out there and enjoy your MGAs and stop writing stupid things on this thread - cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

What I want to know is whether anybody has considered the consequences of global warming:
Iceland and Greenland green again (again, not for the first time)

Increased rains and watering of the Earth for increased food production for the world's hungry

Increased fish populations in the ocean's for the penguins.
Mike Parker

Well, Mike, we've been heading out of an ice age for the last 13,000 years or so, so global warming seems to be part of the bargain. Personally, I'd prefer warming to cooling (as we were warned about in the 70s) because in the last ice age my house was under three miles of ice. Makes it awfully hard to drive the MG.

As far as BP goes, kudos to them for polluting less than they were required to for so long. (Two pound of mercury isn't very much - it weighs as much as lead.) The environment has gotten so much better than it was when I was a kid it's hard not to believe we're headed in the right direction overall. OK, gotta go out and shoo the damned Canada geese (almost and endangered species when I was in high school) out of the yard.

Seriously, I understand the sentiment against this. Maybe BP ought to take its effluent back to Britain and dump it there. :-)

David Breneman

Another 13.8 million gallons of legal sewage discharged from Milwaukee today. 8-21-07 Yumm!
Swimming anyone?
Not even boating?

Screw the Ice Age. It didn't happen. We are actually seeing nations scramble to claim the seabed under the North Pole because it will be melted enough to make it easy to draw oil.

Screw the Grandkids. I don't have any but you do. Real big changes in a little time relative to recorded history. Man is not responsible? All these little air pump cars all over the globe spewing about. Lots on non-point source pollution. I know you ALL masturbate. I just can't prove it.
Chuck COllins

I'd like to reply to you Chuck, but it's hard to type with one hand.
David Breneman

I am very sorry for my rude non-member troll posting. Too many beers and then I hear about the new sewage dumping news over here. Then I dump on this list. My sincere apologies. I also wanted to hijack and stop the thread so I could lurk about while y'all talked about neat old cars again.
Chuck Collins

Well Mark staggering as it may be it seems you are pretty much a lone voice. The vast majority of your country men don't believe industrial polution is having any affect of the environment at all.

I wish you luck in your crusade and let you know that we in Europe do recognise polution as a problem. We as yet are doing very little but we are moving forward.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

Very informative Bob, and good luck... If I may ask, where does one get this "Y8" bread to make this particular toast you rave about?
WYATT WOLCOTT

Encouraging news: http://084.housedems.com/?p=151.

It looks like at least this crisis has been averted.

FWIW,
Allen
Allen Bachelder

Well that is fantastic news let also hope that this is forced upon these giants of industry worldwide.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

>Well that is fantastic news let also hope that this is
>forced upon these giants of industry worldwide.

And the resulting economic depression would undoubtedly be blamed on Bush.
Del Rawlins

So Del to quantify your statement you obviously believe that to be environmentally responsible we will have to suffer depression!!
So it is your opinion that we should sad sod our children and lets live for today.
Bob (robert) yes Y8 is toast again :)

Historically, usually what happens in the USA today, we do in the UK 10 years later. I think that in this instance of anti-pollution and recycling, the UK has started to follow the likes of Switzeland and other European countries, albeit a bit late. We are still miles behind, but the climate and environment are making the headlines every day now.

I have managed to reduce my non recyclable household waste by about 60%. Every thing from cans, bottles, plastics, old shoes, cardboard etc has its own collection box.

Wife and I now cycle or walk the mile into the village rather than take the car and we are starting to use the train whenever possible (over 60s get 30% ticket price reductions). The result is that my household motor mileage, BMW and MGA, has dropped from 21,000 annually 6 years ago to 12,000 miles. Of note is that reduced emission vehicles are road taxed at lower rates. I pay £115pa for the Beemer rather than the £165. Fuel consumption is also pretty good at between 45-55 mpg.

As they say in a UK supermarket advert, 'Every little counts'.

Steve
Steve Gyles

I think I am going to drive my truck today just to piss all of you off. I need to fill it up anyway; at 10mpg I have to wait a while for it to be worth the drive to the gas station. 8^)

Del Rawlins

Hey, Del - Be sure to club some baby seals on your way! :-)
David Breneman

Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes...

"So, this baby seal walks into a club..."

Del Rawlins

I'm sorry. I have to laugh. OK I'm done.
BP requested the change at just the wrong time. It happened right when severe Midwestern flooding and sewage dumping into the lake occured.
Chuck Collins

This thread was discussed between 15/08/2007 and 27/08/2007

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