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MG MGA - Care to help settle a debate

This is the substance of a friendly debate I'm having with my brother-in-law.

You have driven up to a stop light, which of the following is better for your car:

a)push in the clutch, shift out of running gear, with clutch still, in place in 1st, hold clutch down until light turns green, let clutch out.

b)take car out of running gear without pushing in clutch, leave in neutral without pushing in clutch untils light turns green, push in clutch place in first, let clutch out.
Tysen

c)take car out of running gear using the clutch, leave in neutral without pushing in clutch until light turns green, push in clutch place in first, let clutch out.
Joe Cook

As Joe says, place in neutral and release the clutch. Two advantages, one you don't cause extra wear to the throw out bearing, and two if the hydraulics fail you don't go lurching out into the intersection. Add one more step, when the light turns green, push in the clutch, move shifter lever to second gear then quickly to first and release the clutch. Makes engaging first gear in an old rib case much easier.
Bill Young

I prefer b) from Tysen's list. No reason to use the clutch to take the car out of gear and into neutral while coasting to a stop. I also agree with Bill about momentarily putting it in second before first from a standstill.
- Ken
Ken Doris

Tysen,

I would go one step further than Joe.
Since first gear doesn't have a synchro and quickly putting into first gear after a minute or so idling in neutral will cause a slight grinding of the gears.

Where Joe said to "push in clutch place in first".
I would edit it to read: Push in clutch,slightly pull shift lever towards second till you feel some resistance, then place in first.

This will stop of gears in the tranny from turning long enough for you to "place in first" with out grinding the gears when selecting first gear.
This of course depends on a good second gear synchro.


Ray
Ray Ammeter

In the UK in the 60s I was required to use the following technique to pass my driving test:

Come to a stop with the foot brake with a gear (probably second) engaged and clutch pedal depressed. Select the handbrake on. Select neutral. Release the clutch pedal. When the lights change depress the clutch, select first gear, balance the clutch, release the hand brake and proceed forward in a cautious manner.

Speaking to the youngsters in my department it would seem that the technique is still broadly the same except that you now depress the clutch and select neutral shortly before coming to a stop.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve,

Handbrake?

Is that British for the brake with the pedal? or is the hand brake like we know it?

Tysen

I agree with Ray!


As for using the hand brake at every stop?
Ya gotta be kiddin'

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Tysen

Handbrake as in the MGA - bolted to the tunneling. Very few UK cars have your foot operated 'hand brakes'.

Dwight

I was only telling you what was/is required on the UK driving test. Very few people stick to it afterwards. Most sit at traffic lights in gear with their footbrake on all the time - brake light illuminated.

I always put the on handbrake and drop into neutral if I think I am going to be stationary for more than about 10 seconds as I do not like riding the clutch (and wasting bulb life!!). It allows me to waggle my feet and legs around to prevent DVT!

In humour

Steve
Steve Gyles

I've been doing b) combined with the "2nd-to-1st-from-a-stop" for years in my '58 Coupe. Number of clutch/teansmission parts replaced: 0. Every PO car I've serviced had a worn release bearing - The sacrificial part consumed when the clutch is depressed. I've never had to replace my own. I do all sorts of crazy skip-shifting and clutchless moves to preserve things. That said, the clutch is getting a little weak after 48 odd years of service.
Kemper

Tysen,
If you FORCE me to take one or the other, I would choose "B".
That said:
Joe and Ray - I agree with.

To go a hair further, I have seen lots of modern motors that the thrust bearings on the crankshaft have been worn down 50% AND the crankshaft thrust surface is worn down just as bad! The crankshafts have to be welded up and reground to where they need to be.

By all means people, all manual clutches need to be placed in neutral and the clutch pedal released. Going another step further, you should Never ride the clutch. Release the clutch as careful and quick as possible and then get your foot on the floor, not hovering above the pedal or resting on the pedal.

With an MG, the throw out bearing is not a bearing at all but a carbon wear surface, so if you dont take your foot off, you will eventually wear that out too- it just happened to my '79B that someone claimed the clutch had been replaced on.

Now to go a bit further, don't rest your hand on the shifter. You will wear out the forks as well as other items and cause sloppy movement of the shifter among other issues.

....and by all means, gently 'slap' with the palm of your hand an MG into reverse. Any A, B, C or midget. It takes 90% less then trying to pull it into reverse. (Don't go into reverse at a stop light- trust me, its a bad thing!)

-BMC.
BMC Brian McCullough

Brian

With you all the way on wearing out the thrust bearing by riding the clutch and leaning on the gear stick.

That is why I still go back to my 'as taught' techniques whenever possible as they were developed with those points you made in mind.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Hi Steve,
You know I am just trying to show my Dad up who only agreed with Ray! ;-) He originally taught me most of that before I was legal (lethal?) to drive. I have noted in US built cars that still have manual gearboxes (few and far between) that clutches do not last as long even though the materials are better. Generally because US drivers do not know how to drive manual vehicles anymore and there is less and less ambition to drive. The automakers have come up with some very decent autos and cars that do everything but the laundry.

Going back to the thrust bearing, I have opened up far fewer MG motors with any significant wear then modern motors. There is wear, but not more then quarter as much, but that could be due to lubrication, drivers ability or many other factors.

-BMC.
BMC Brian McCullough

I also read somewhere that you should start the mga in neutral with the clutch fully engaged.
Fred H

The day I passed my driving test (using the points raised above) my instructor drove me home while demonstrating clutchless driving in 'get you home' situations:

Starting up in first gear, pulling through into neutral and and then the next gear, coming back down through the box, matching the revs in neutral to crash through into a lower gear, coming to a stop in neutral, switching off, re-engaging first and starting all over again.

I sometimes practice it in a company car, but not my own!

Steve
Steve Gyles

Like Steve, I took my test in the UK in the 60s. Same slightly nonsensical routine. However, some of it still sticks. In my cars (Boxster, MGA, Passat), I always drop into neutral while waiting at lights, but I anticipate the change and usually get into gear before the light goes to green (there is no red/amber sequence in the US). I still use the hand brake (quaintly called the emergency brake in the US) if I'm on an up slope. It was ingrained in me by my father never, never to balance the car on the clutch. It seems to be worthwhile; the only clutch I have ever had to replace was on the MGA and that had been worn away by the PO.

Dan
Dan Barton

Fred,
By fully engaged, I think you mean- leave your foot off the clutch.

On an MG with the standard carbon surface instead of a bearing, by depressing the clutch pedal, you will SLOW the motor down!

Anyone who start their car with the pedal depressed, here is a simple test:

On a very cold day when everything does not like to turn over very fast and you require the choke for starting,
#1 do NOT pull out on the choke.
#2 crank the motor over in neutral with the clutch completely depressed.
#3 after cranking for about 2-3 seconds, release the clutch and keep turning the motor over (Still in neutral!) for another 2-3 seconds.

You will note that the engine speed picks up quite a bit! the warmer it is the less noticeable but the motor WILL start much quicker if you leave your foot off. This also helps the oil to flow over the thrust bearing upon startup.


Note: Modern cars or MGs with a replacement roller bearing have a little less of this issue and can actually spin over faster in the real cold weather because they will not be dragging the input shaft of the gearbox, but that is a whole different story.

The standard MG gearboxes give the MGs character. (Good, bad or otherwise)
Every time someone replaces one, it takes away from the original character of the car. This is one reason I have had issues with putting 5 speeds into any standard MG. They are good and benefit the drivers and are superior in every way, but take away the original feeling. If I am going to do that, I am going to replace the entire driveline.

-BMC.
BMC Brian McCullough

One thing I don't understand is that many cars sold in the US require you to push down the clutch pedal in order to start the engine. If the clutch pedal isn't depressed, the starter won't turn! This is insanity. Everyone knows you start a car with the transmission in neutral and the clutch released. I suppose if I buy a new standard-transmission car I'll have to demand that that switch is disabled as a condition of sale. The last few new cars I've bought have automatics because I use them to commute to and from work. That type of "driving" is death to a clutch.

David Breneman

OK there seems to be overwhelming support for a variant of option "B". Thank you (yes that was mine).

The distinction appears to be that the clutch should be engaged while removing the car from gear.

Why would that be important?

Tysen

Steve,
Ref your comments on what youngsters are taught to come to a stop, ie depress clutch and select neutral.
I have just recently passed my advanced driving test. You are taught to remain in gear as you come to a stop, slowly depressing the clutch at the same time. To put the lever into neutral before you stop is coasting, and if someone hit you from behind you would be shoved foward.
Henry

David your question is a flame wars inducing one. To protect us from ourselves the car makers are forced to incorporate this feature. Part of the liberal left taking freedom and replacing it with the nanny state. In a car with auto trans you have to depress the brake to get it out of park. Just had one towed in for a bad brake light switch, customer could not put it in gear.
Welcome to America land of the (sort of) free.
R J Brown

David

The new BMW 3-Series over here will not start unless the clutch is depressed fully in, so it's not just the US.

Henry

Many thanks. That is still what I commonly do and was the reason I was given back in the 60s. That said, in those days I believe it was a hang-over from the old long stroke engines and poor brakes, when engine braking was a lot more common. I'm feel that the same reason is not so valid today. If you are coasting to a stop you will be more likely to have your brake covered with your foot than if engine-braking'. Therefore, you are already better prepared (reaction time) for the shunt up the back.

Steve
Steve Gyles

As you're coming up to the stop, take the (negative) load off the tranny by giving the slightest blip to the gas. Then pull her out of gear. When you see the yellow the other way, put her in second, then first. Mine tries to chatter if I give her too much gas, just a touch, and out with the clutch. Sometimes I see the ignition light come on a bit, but inertia keeps her going.

Does the MGA have a flyoff type handbrake? I'm a TR guy. The flyoff type seems more logical, especially at uphill stops. You do have to reach over a ways to operate it on the US models.
Tom

Hi Steve,
I think the argument is that in the event of a rear shunt, you will be thrown about and have no control over where you feet are. They may be on the brake pedal when you are hit, but seconds later you may have no control over where they are. Assume worst case, no feet are on the pedals. Now the car is being pushed foward in neutral.
The IAM teaches you to come to a stop in the gear you were in before you started to brake. So you could be in 4th gear say as you come to a rest. If anyone hits you up the back now, the engine will just stall.
I am sure however that someone will have a argument for being in neutral at the time of a shunt. It could be benefical if the road ahead is clear, and there is no danger of being pushed into someone.
Henry

Given the (apparent) average intelligence of your average driver, enforcing starting only when clutch depressed is probably a good idea.

I put up with it on my daily driver until the switch on the clutch pedal malfunctioned and the car refused to start.

I impressed the lady I was with by pulling the wiring connector off the switch and jumping it with her hairpin to get going, and I bridged the connector permanently the next day.

There are some things I won't put up with. That switch got to me only after it kacked, but the seat belt buzzer lasted exactly 5 minutes after I bought the car before I ripped its little throat out and silenced it forever. Argh.
Bill Spohn

I've been caught out with hire cars in both the US and Australia, when I failed to depress the clutch and couldn't get the car to fire. It's a baffling problem when you don't expect it - fortunately in both cases a passer-by worked out what the 'stupid tourist' was doing wrong!

Richard.
Richard Ross

My small variation on Option B.

Use clutch when taking out of gear when comming to a stop;

Wait in neutral, foot off clucth;

Anticipate light changing, be in gear when light changes;

Put box into 3rd gear instead of 2nd before selecting 1st. This to save wear on 2nd gear syncro, which usually seems to be the first to go!

I, too, took my driving test in the UK in the '60s. I'd forgotten about them wanting you to engage the handbrake at a stoplight. Well, it was the '60s, after all!

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

Derek , Henry et al , The IAM still want you to put your handbrake on BEFORE you put the gear into neutral at any stop - took me ages to get out my previously ingrained "bad" habit when taking their test.Now I am ingrained into putting my hand brake on and getting in to neutral at every stop longer than 10 seconds! Can be a pain I know! Cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

This thread was discussed between 06/07/2006 and 11/07/2006

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