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MG MGA - Current thoughts on 5 speed conversion

I've been thinking about installing the Ford based Hi-Gear 5 speed conversions in my '56 roadster. The archives contain quite a few discussions related to this topic, but many are several years old and most pertain mainly to sourcing the conversion, etc.

I'm interested in hearing current thoughts from those of you who've done this conversion...the good, the bad, and the ugly. Did you run into any problems during the conversion? How does the new gearbox shift as compared to the original? How does it perform over time? Are you completely happy with the conversion? Would you do it again?

I understand that Ford suggests using a synthetic gear oil. I've also heard that the gearbox does not have a drain plug, nor is the filler tube accessible once the gearbox is mounted in an A. True? With syntheic oil, what is the service interval between oil changes? Is it sufficiently long that one wouldn't expect to have to top-up or change the oil before the gearbox was next removed for servicing the clutch, etc?
Andy Bounsall

Andy

I have been running my 5-speed since February 2000. I have had a mainly trouble free time - just breaking a speedo cable 2.5 years ago.

Fitting was easy, following the instructions provided. The only problem I experienced post installation was a tendency for the gear lever rubber boot to pull the gear lever into neutral from 2nd & 4th gears whenever i took my foot off the throttle. I cured this by manufacturing a leather boot, dispensing with rubber version. I found that an old instrument chrome bezel made a very nice finishing touch insert into the carpet around the leather boot that was attached by self tappers to the tunnel.

I have found the car far more pleasant in today's traffic, enabling me to drive fast and still hear the radio (lower revs).

As a safety point, as I also installed an 1800 engine at the same time, I thought it prudent to beef up the brakes, fitting discs on the front.

My view is that it is a great modification. I have also recently installed a 3.9 diff. She really cruises along now.

All I have to do is sort out my poor MPG (other thread) and I will be in 7th heaven.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Andy,
I've done exactly the same conversion as Steve Giles save for the 3.9 Rear ratio. The fit was exceptional except for some slight recontouring of the tunnel piece where the shift lever gaiter attaches. Highly recommend this change.
BOL,
Doug
D Sjostrom

I installed the 5-speed in my B and its a different vehicle now! The gear ratio changes makes it much more suitable for keeping up with traffic, and being able to hear music at freeway speeds!
Jeff Schlemmer

I have the 5 speed with a 18v engine and a 3.9. It is a great freeway flyer. Do get the quick shift kit. The only difference is 1st is up and to the left, and 2nd is down and to left, 3rd is straight forward and 4th is straight down, 5th is to the right and up and R is down and to the right
JEFF BECKER

I concur with above comments but my throwout bearing went out at 13,000 miles, and i'm careful with it. I can't explain this but wonder if others have experienced this?
Steve
Steve Meline

Hi Andy

The theory of not having a drain plug is based on 1) not needing to change the oil, ever, and 2) if you do change the oil, you can suck it out easily with a suction tube from a parts shop.
My Ford 5 speed is attached to a 1800 MGB motor ans am about 3 weeks away from my first drive - can't wait!!!
Dave
David Godwin

I've had the 5 speed in now for about 3 years with no problems apart from an occasional jumping out of 4th on overrun. I think this is wear in the box and not the problem that Steve mentioned. Some, but not all, versions of the Haynes manual on the Ford Sierra have strip down instructions for the gearbox but spares could be getting hard to find

The oil filler can easily be made accessible - cut about a two inch round hole in the side of the cover opposite the filler and close it with a rubber sealing plug.

I can only re-iterate what others have said, the conversion is well engineered and easy to carry out. I did mine without even removing the engine.

In use the only real downside to me is that I don't think the gear lever positions are quite as natural as the original, particularly second gear. This is purely personal and bear in mind that mine is right hand drive. Benefits will also depend on where and how you use the car. I live on the edge of a large conurbation and spend quite a lot of time in traffic where 5th is not a lot of use but having synchro on 1st is. Actually, fifth gear will pull away from 30 mph easily but not rapidly (1600 engine) but does not really come into its own until cruising at above 50mph.

Another benefit is that the gearbox is absolutely silent especially when compared with my well used original. You'll be surprised how noisy the old unit was when its no longer there.

As a note to UK people, if you think you might ever change to a 5 speed, start looking for a gearbox now, buy it, and stick it in the back of the garage. Sierras are getting rare even in scrapyards and new boxes are expensive.
Malcolm Asquith

I've had my 5 speed for two years. It transformed the car from one that was a bit of a nuisance to other traffic to one that keeps up and is a pleasure to drive. Noise reduced by half, vibration reduced stress to driver reduced. I drive my MGA for pleasure so always seek out country roads but now, if I need to thrash up the motorway its no longer a challenge. Do it!
David
David M

Andy

One anti-theft bonus is to keep the original MGA gear knob. A would-be thief will have fun trying to find reverse.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Thanks much for the various responses. Sounds like the scales definitely tilt towards the good and away from the bad and ugly. A few follow up questions:


>> Do get the quick shift kit.
What is the 'quick shift kit' Jeff?


>> I did mine without even removing the engine.
Malcolm, how'd you manage that? Details please.


>> spares could be getting hard to find.
I've heard it suggested that these gearboxes are VERY durable and are unlikely to need much in the way of servicing, especially with the limited mileage that we put on our LBCs. A couple of parts that are likely to wear:

1) prop shaft u-joints. Are these the same type as the ones used on the standard MG prop shaft?
2) clutch driven plate. Is this a 'standard' part or is it custom made?


>> keep the original MGA gear knob. A would-be thief will have fun trying to find reverse.
Ha, ha, ha! I wonder if I could get an insurance discount based on such a low-tech theft deterent?


Andy Bounsall

The quick shift kit Peter offers allows it to shift like your MGA and you do not have to cut and shape the top of the tunnel where the shifter shaft comes thru. If you do not get it, you have to shave some metal to allow the shifter to get into each gear.
JEFF BECKER

Putting in the new gearbox you have to remove the cover, so out come the seats, carpets and floorboards. If you remove, or move out of the way, the toeboard support plate (this runs across the car above the gearbox) the old gearbox will just come out. Put a jack under the back of the engine. You will probably have to tilt the engine so watch the fan/radiator gap. The clutch can be removed from inside the car and the new spigot bearing fitted. The clutch plate is a standard Ford part (by memory) as it has to match the new input shaft splines. The new spigot bearing is needed as the Ford shaft is a different diameter.

The new gearbox goes in from the top with no problem especially as it will be nice and clean. I did it all single handed by the way - there's never anyone around when needed.
Malcolm Asquith

Hi

The quick shift is awfull, its intended for rally/race cars, the change has a much nicer feel with the standard set up. Fit an early MGB gaitor, the MGA one is too small and hinders the gearchange, you'll need to cut a bigger hole in the tunnel. The drive plate is the same as a 'B', 23 splines by 1"


Terry
Terry Drinkwater

Installed 5 speed Datsun transmission along with MGB engine last year, as they are more readily available in US and much less expensive. Opted for 3.9 rear end, but removed for 4.3, as there was no torque with 5 speed. 75 to 80 miles/hr on interstate is no problem, and much more comfortable. Cliff
cliff hughes

Hello Cliff,

How did you do that. Is i from a kit or custom made. From which Datsun comes the transmission?

Cheers,

JGC
Jean Guy Catford

Jean: 5 speed transmission extracted from a 280z. Had to widen the transmission tunnel at foot well about 1 to 1 1/2 inches in the far left corner of passenger side, about 4-5 inches long, without cutting the tunnel. Had to open the mouth of the transmission tunnel at bulkhead from engine bay about 1 inch around the top of the tunnel, and down the sides about 3 inches. Had to grind the raised portion of the tranny case, in order to allow it to pass into tunnel mouth. Removed the bracket from the rear of tunnel near driveshaft from underneath the car, shortened the driveshaft, and then made a new brace which I bolted in for easy removal, furthur back than the original brace. Fabricated engine plate from 3/8 aluminum using the B engine plate, and the Datsun plate. Drilled out holes on a drill press, attached and refit. Had to remove the curved panel that sits atop the transmission ( where the gear shift lever is positioned.) Fabricated another panel and fit where the original was. Then shortened the Datsun gear shift lever to allow passage under the dash. Used a Datsun clutch, slave cylinder etc. Lucas starter would not fit, so I installed a Hy Gear reduction starter. All is well!!!!
cliff hughes

Just be sure to save your original transmission. The MGA is fast becoming a classic car as opposed to just an old car. Very soon, the original transmission will be definite determinant of value.
David Breneman

David, I agree with your idea of keeping the original gearbox, but I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning for why.

If I do switch to a 5 speed I'll definitely keep the old gearbox in case I ever want to go back. Can't imagine that happening if the 5 speed is as good as everyone claims, but you never know.

I don't really know if the potential future value of my car will depend on having the original transmission. Perhaps, although the car doesn't have the original engine either - the 1500 block was replaced with a 1600 by a PO some 20 odd years ago. Anyway, I don't own the car as an investment. I own it to drive and to enjoy, and I'm thinking the 5 speed might give me a bit more of both.
Andy Bounsall

I am currently looking for a Sierra gearbox and hoping to do the 5 speed conversion over the winter months. Good to hear that it can be done with engine in situ - 3 others in our club (www.westlancsmg.co.uk)have done theirs - (MGA,MG TF and MG midget)- will let you know when I become the 4th - Cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

Cam

In my humble opinion it is far easier and quicker to take the engine out than strip the inside. I have the tee-shirt for both events, give me the engine out every time.

I took the engine out for the original 5-speed installation and all went very well with no snags worth mentioning here, just the odd bit of fettling. One thing to bear in mind, however, is that the conversion kit bellhousing has a high starter position, so earlier cars will require a bit of modding to the tunnel.

The occasion I took the inside apart was to get at the end of the speedo cable that had broken off inside the Sierra gearbox housing and was stuck fast. Some of the floor bolts were a bugger and if you have stuck carpet down you may have a bit of fun getting that off. You may also have to remove the handbrake and its surrounding formers. None of this is necessary with the engine out and working from underneath.

Steve



Steve Gyles

Cam

There's no way you can get the A box out without removing the engine. The bell housing is bigger than the space between the goal post and the lower tubular member.
dominic clancy

Dominic,

You can as I did it.

Malcolm
Malcolm Asquith

I had no problem removing the engine/transmission from my 58 mga. I put the car on jackstands and removed the hood (bonnet), lifted at an angle. No problem. Had no help in doing.
I would like to place a 5 speed in my car also since most of my daily driving is highway, but the price of $2700.00 seems high to me. Maybe someday htey'll sell cheaper ( fat chance)..
Mike
Mike

I'm surprised that no British entrepeneur has gone round all the scrap yards buying up Type 9 gearboxes, putting them in a crate and shipping them out to the States. Mine cost me £50 ($90) in great condition. They are still plentiful in the scrap yards around here.

Steve
Steve Gyles

"Fettling" A British activity involving the swinging of a large hammer. Somehwat similar to Morris Dancing but without the bells.

:-)
Rich McKIe

Thanks Steve and Dominic - looks like it's the engine out then - needs a good sort out anyway (oil leaks)! - just been out for a 50+ mile drive and got caught out in the rain ( round Garstang Preston - that's what Steve has to put up with all the time!!)-will be trying out all the scrap yards for Sierra boxes next week ( might buy them all up and ship them to USA on the suggestion of Steve)-might be cheaper to buy a complete Sierra and take out the box - thanks for the definiton of "fettling" for all the non Brits Rich - always involves a big hammer to knock 7 bells out of metal - Morris dancing is a lot gentler than Morris Garages dancing - cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

I have the quick-shif. It eliminated the need for any mods to the dop of the tunnel and allowed use of the origional gator. Very happy with the shift action. I can not speed shift into 2ed like I would like, I think that is a function of a weak syncro.
Steve
Steve Meline

We in the states would buy all the trans in the autojumbles in England but who would rebuild them. Some would be good but a lot wold have bad seals or syncro's. We don't have the parts easily avail here.
JEFF BECKER

Fettling: best defined as playing around with various installation optioins, filing, adjusting and modifying something till it fits, normally using gentle refined tools and engineering know-how, otherwise just some intelligence, but only in rare circumstances requiring the use of a universal screwdriver (aka BFH). Fettling is really NOT about the use of brute force and ignorance.

Malcom, if you could remove your gearbox rear-wards, your chassis has been modified at some point. On a standard chassis it really is not possible, even with no floorboards etc fitted. One of the guys in our local club has modified his chassis to allow the tubular member under the gbx to be removable to allow gbx removal w/o engine removal. His car (which is almost finished) is sparyed in a Mercedes metallic gold colour (and an absolutely beautiful paint job - a mirror flat finish everywhere) - somewhat disturbed in my mind by a dayglo orange engine block, but that's a detail.

Cam, I have to take out ALL my drivetrain this winter to fix oil leaks etc. I have a new rear axle casing coming from Bob West too, as I have decided that the Speedi Sleeve route is not likely to work on my severely knackered rear casing (it was marginal 20 years ago when I restored the car, and I didn't have the money to replace it). Oil in the rear brakes is becoming a real problem, solveable only regular servicing (a real pain) or by running on almost no oil in the casing (not a good idea). The rear gbx seal is also to be replaced, as is the front one (again), but the biggest leak (BIG) is between the rear engine plate and the block. My friends have taken to rushing out with a huge piece of cardboard when I come to visit because of the amount of oil it leaks...... I have thought about a Sierra conversion, but the "local" distributor (lawrenz.de) is SO chaotic that I can't rely on it actually appearing (getting any answer out of him these days is like pulling teeth). The Swiss guys are grossly overpriced, and I use them only in emergencies.



dominic clancy

It is indeed possible to remove the gearbox from the interior with no chassis modifications, as long as the floorboards can be removed and the toeboard bulkhead plate is removed (it must be slid down and rotated to come out from below). The engine and gearbox are lifted a bit with a floor jack to clear the round crossmember. I have done it also. I have read that some works prepared cars had the plate split so that it would come out more easily.
John DeWolf

I have also removed the gearbox from my MGA without removing the engine. No modifications in hassis. I have done it at least three times. However, I think there may be a risk that you bend the shaft which comes out of the gearbox when "fettling" the gearbox into its place. The working conditions under the dashboard are not ideal.
Tomi Lundell


Are there variations in the Type 9 transmissions? Upthread Jeff Becker mentioned that reversion to down and to the right. On my 5 speed from Hi-Gear it is up and to the left.

Do all of you have the quick shift?
David Ahrendt

OK I stand corrected - although the contortions that you must have to go through (and the question of the input shaft) make me seriously wonder if it's really easier than pulling the engine. To get the propshaft out, the handbrake braces also have to be removed, which is a pig of a job on its own. I'll stick to doing it the way that nature intended - it takes about 90 minutes and is a relatively straightforward job to do.

I changed my radiator again this weekend (two leaky Moss repros in a row...., so now fingers crossed). Including modifications to the radiator panel to drop the rad a bit further, and including working around the supercharger bets, it took 45 minutes, 5 of whch were spend explaining to the neighbour what various bits are!)

Cam, unless you are a contortionist, have a pit, and love the scrapes and blood that are inevitable when working under the dash, pull the engine. I'm sure it will be faster too.
dominic clancy

Thanks again Dominic - it does look as though engine and gearbox out together is the least trouble - and yes fettling should be done with care not with a big hammer as I tried to make a joke of - cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

Cam
In my experience, a separate delivery is easier than delivering twins! Engine out first, gbx second. Dropping the gearbox out underneath with engine in place sounds like the breech birth option to me.
dominic clancy

David is correct on reverse. I was thinking of my other car.
JEFF BECKER

John,

You are correct in that the works cars prepared for Sebring in '60, '61 and '62 had the closing panel above the toeboards split to facilitate engine and gearbox removal. The transmission tunnel and toeboard were made of alloy on these cars and the trans tunnel was designed to mount above the floorboard. I discovered the value of that in 2002 at Sebring when we needed to change the clutch on my #43 Sebring Coupe in the pits. I would assume that similar mods were used on the works rally cars such as ABL151.

Frank
Frank Graham

Another advantage of the Ford 5 speed is that it has an automatic reversing light switch. Even if you don't plan to use it at first, it is worth bringing out the wiring from the socket which is up on the right side of the gearbox. It is very hard/impossible to get anywhere near it once everything is back in place. And, when visiting the scrapyard try and get the wiring socket that fits the plug.
Malcolm Asquith

Can only add one or two things: I have the Hi-Gear box in my 1600 A with a 3.9 rear end It is like driving a modern car—but much more fun. I did install a ball-baring throw-out baring that I got from Ceclia. The installation instructions from Hi-Gear are very clear. just make sure you tighten the zerk fittings on the prop shaft as I spun both of them out on the trip to Gatlinburg this summer
David Werblow

It is definitely sensible to remove engine and gearbox as two separate pieces. I have done this to my 1600Mk1 several times! Don't ask why. I am seriously looking at the 1800/5 speed mod though. My engine was orginally tuned in the 60's with 10:1 pistons, this did not sit well with unleaded fuel. I still miss the power now its back at 8.3:1. It was originally measured at about the same a B on a rolling road, so it seems a good idea.
Glyn Rutter

This thread was discussed between 07/11/2006 and 18/11/2006

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