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MG MGA - do it yourself paint
| I'm in the middle of trying to get my '62 MGA presentable as a driver, not a concourse car. I've contacted several body shops and I've either been unimpressed ("we don't strip the paint because you don't need to") or they charge more the I can afford. (I don't doubt that they'd do a good job, I just can't afford what they were asking.) So I had an idea that I would try to paint it myself. I know it won't be perfect, but I figure if I screw up one coat, I can sand it and do it again until I get it right. I actually don't really care about minor dings, so I wouldn't mess with those. My plan was to media blast it myself, sand the aluminum parts separately and then spray it. I have never painted or media blasted before. I was planning on sanding the aluminum instead of blasting it. The thing is my car has a lot of surface rust (no holes). Would the media blasting take care of this? Does it remove grease as well? The bolts seem easy enough to remove... Is this really realistic, or should I just cough up the cash and pay someone. My biggest fears are giant rust bombs lurking under the paint. Thanks, Darian |
| Darian Henderson |
| Hi Darian. How many coats of paint are currently on your MG? If there are only a few coats of paint, and they are well adhered, you might think about not stripping any paint off. If the current paint is relatively thin and sound, you could likely get away with thorough de waxing, then sanding the entire body with progressively finer grits of sandpaper. Stripping is messy, time consuming, and leaves you with lots of bare metal that needs to be carefully prepared before priming and painting. Once the metal is bare, it will begin to rust almost immediately! If the current paint is peeling off, or is in really terrible condition, then you may have no choice but to strip off all the old paint. Hope this helps, Glenn |
| Glenn |
| Hi Glenn, The current paint is terrible, which is why I want to paint it. Here's a picture: http://img216.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc08529mh0.jpg What do you mean by "carefully preparing" the metal. Are you talking about making sure you remove all the rust? Thanks, Darian |
| Darian Henderson |
| Darian-- I stripped, sandblasted, welded & filled, primed and painted my A a few years ago, and it was my first such job, self-taught. I used cheap-o Sears equipment (never again), good paint (PPG) and tons of sandpaper down to #2000 grit, plus buffing, and ended up with a mirror finish after over a dozen coats of color and clearcoat and countless rounds of sanding. Not perfect, but it doesn't scream "backyard paint job" either. And it's black. If you use lacquer you have a lot of control over the results because the final finish is obtained by sanding and polishing. Other finishes require a lot of skill in the spraying, and good quality tools. I also spent lots of time researching on the web and reading books. Try the Autobodyshop.com bulletin board. The research time is a factor, too. So, you can do it, but you have to really want to and it takes over your life for a while. I'm not sure I'd want to again. You may want to talk to a few more body shops, local sportscar clubs or racers, etc, before you decide. It's a bear of a job. Not to mention the crap you breathe. John Vallely |
| John Vallely |
| Darian, Go to your local paint store (jobber) and ask questions. You'll be surprised what you can find out. Read what's available on the Internet......very informative. Laquer is illegal in many states these days. Enamel is a thing of the past. Urethane is the modern choice. Base coat/ Clear Coat is what most are doing but there are ($$$$) single component Urethanes available. Be careful. The new paint systems can really mess you up. Not just you lungs but your central nervous system. Good luck. GTF |
| G T Foster |
| hi darian, i had the same experience as you when i went looking for body and paint work and chose to paint the car myself and it was very satisfying but way more work than i anticipated. how long it will take all depends on the degree of prep work you do. as mentioned here i also used the web to learn how to do this stuff. the most valuable thing i found was some videos from the paintucation website. i found one of the videos at the local library and then ordered some from the website as well. they are fairly modern and cover just about everything. it will show you what you are up against. from the paintucation forum's i found this website as well, http://www.mckennasgarage.com/xke/index.htm this person has a great photo journal of his restoration of a jag. i basiclly followed the same steps he did and am very happy with the results. good luck. |
| doug |
| Darian Not sure what your night school arrangements are over in the USA. Over here I signed up for one night a week night school, costing me about $150 for approx 26 x 3 hour sessions. They taught me how to do body refinishing, using my own car. I took panels in each week and used their facilities that included all stripping material, fillers, primers, spraying equipment and oven. Sure, it took me over 6 months, including doing work in my own garage in between 'lessons', but it was most satisfying. I did all the work up to top coat, but let a professional do that. One of the instructors even offered to do it for free! It can be done. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| The best way to remove the rust is have it dipped, but it is lots of $$$$. Steve's idea on a tech school is a good one, I know a few people who have done this and it worked out well. Stay away from laquer, while it is easy to use and errors can be sanded and reshot in a short time period, it will crack in a couple years if you get it on too thick. Think about doing all the labor intensive work, stripping, sanding, blasting, priming, etc and then have a body shop just do the painting. You should end up with avery good paint job for a reasonable price. |
| John H |
| Darian, Like John H mentioned, I did all of the prep work, primed and sanded then took it to a paint shop to have it sprayed. Just doing the prep is a long time consuming process so don't get in a hurry. If that is rust coming up through the paint in your pic, then you will want to strip it down. I'm a big fan of media blasting, using plastic for the steel and soda for the aluminum. I would also recommend taking the body off the frame while your at it. It sounds like a big job, but it's really not that bad. Once the body is off, it's so easy to put the thing up on saw horses and do the work. This makes panel aligment easier too which needs to be done before the final prime/sand. Have fun! |
| JohnB |
| Hi Darian. By properly preparing the metal, I mean removing ALL traces of rust, Welding in new metal where necessary, tapping out or filling all dents, hammering down any high spots, etching all bare metal, priming the bare metal with a suitable primer (epoxy adheres extremely well), then applying and sanding numerous coats of sprayed primer surfacer until all panels are straight and smooth. At this point the panels are ready for colour coats. This process is a lot of work. Properly preparing the metal is critical if a good paint job is to result! Any tiny dents, ripples, sand scratch, rust, or other imperfections will clearly show through the fresh paint! If you have never done a body and paint job before, the process can be confusing and intimidating! I agree with the others to seek information, ask lots of questions, and get some training if possible. If training is unavailable, then find a junk fender, and practice repairing and painting it before you attempting to do your MGA. I agree that lacquer paint is probably not the best type of paint to put on your MG. Personally, I prefer catalysed enamel as a topcoat, but it is tricky to spray, and the chemical composition is potentially hazardous to the painter's health, if proper safety precautions are not taken. When painting a vehicle, there are many ways to botch the job and create an unsightly mess. Paint runs, fish eyes, orange peel, blooming, and lack of gloss are just a few of the more common possibilities. If you decide to do your own body and paint work, be sure you thoroughly understand the process, and be willing to tough out the mistakes and setbacks that will inevitably occur. Hope this helps, Glenn |
| Glenn |
| If you really want to go cheap, you might want to look at this site. I got it off the BMW website and they were all pretty impressed at what the guy had done with a roller. http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/...0&fpart=1&vc=1 |
| Cleve |
| Glad you posted that link, Cleve. I was about to post the same myself. I know if I was on a tight budget but really, really wanted to make a car presentable and on the road for a few years before dropping '000s on a "proper" paint job, I'd try this myself. |
| Derek Nicholson |
| A couple of words of advice from a guy who has chosen NOT to do it himself. Do NOT media blast unless you really know what you're doing or have somebody else who really knows what you're doing right there with you. Some media (such as sand) can heat up and warp even steel panels badly. Certain primers (like etching primers) are serious health hazards. The breathing masks you buy in a hardware or auto-parts store don't protect you from this stuff. You need a mask that delivers fresh outside air to your face. In trying to save money, ask how long you want the paint-job to last. There are differences. Make sure you learn how to use sanding primer and guide-coat to straighten panels. The shinier your paint is, the more defects it will reveal, and it could end up looking rather amateurish. Yes your picture reveals some pretty rough paint, but it doesn't show how thick it is. I hear professional painters talking about a "scuff and shoot" job where they (or you) scuff the existing paint surface with a DA sander and shoot over that. This is what I had done on my B/GT driver. I did all the welding and a little prep work on the new panels. The shop did the rest - it cost about $1500 and the car has come home from four of the first six shows popular choice, and one judged show with some sort of award. That was totally beyond my epectations - but it is a nice car. The shop that shot it is now out of business. Hmmm... In many cases it is not desireable to sand, blast, or dip down to bare metal. The original primer may be in excellent shape. Similarly, you might run across some filler material of good quality that has been applied correctly. If you can establish that it is not covering rust, there's little point in removing it - especially if you're not going for concours honors. Removing this material often can simply cause you a lot of extra work and expense for no particular good reason. As several others above have recommended, I have a professional bodyman-friend who is helping and teaching me to do as much of the prep work as possible. Once that is all done, I'll have a professional shop correct my errors and shoot it. I've heard of guys even getting quite decent paint-jobs from the likes of Earl Scheib, etc. if they do good prep work themselves in advance. Although, quality of the materials has a lot to do with it and it is easy to spend over $1,000 just on materials. Anyway you look at it, satisfactory results take a lot of time and effort, or a lot of money, or a lot of both. I would suggest that while you have the car apart, do the best job you can afford. Push your patience to new levels. Try to get a reasonable estimate of how long it's going to take and then multiply that by at least three. Prepare for the worst-case-scenario at every step of the way. Then, anything that goes right will be a pleasant surprise. Then when the paint is all done, make sure you have an arrangement for touching up all the spots you'll scarf up while putting the car back together. You WILL do this, no matter how careful you are. And it won't do to mix up more paint to touch it up. Save some of the original. At least now you know a little more about WHY I don't do all of this myself. 8^) FWIW, Allen |
| Allen Bachelder |
| It appears that your car was last painted without removing the fender welting. To get a decent looking paint job the fenders need to come off. I would expect that there is much more rust in the car than you think. Once the fenders are off you can reassess the amount of work needed to get a solid good looking car. |
| R J Brown |
| Hi Darian, Are you planning to paint the car in one piece or strip it down? (I mean removing wings, doors, boot, bonnet, shut panels, splash panels, latches etc, etc.) Normally when you dissassemble everything you can find that there is much more to do than you first thought. There may be some welding required. ;-) One thing though; you can prepare and paint all the "unseen" surfaces and just primer the outer panels. Then the body shop can do the final colour coat. (Sounds similar to what you did Steve?) If you were just planning to paint the outer panels for now I wouldn't worry so much, you dont need to remove all the paint (but you do need to remove all the rust!) I had serious paint reactions when I first resprayed my car over multiple paint layers 25 years ago and since have always used an isolator over old paint before applying the primer. I have never had any problems and can definitely recommend that. One more thing, I remember you mentioned that you were deciding on the colour some weeks ago. I don't know what you decided, but if you keep the original old english white, it will not show paint defects so much as red, green or other dark colours! Best of luck anyway, there are probably about 100 guys around the world watching your rebuild with interest! Neil |
| Neil McGurk |
| I know someone has already mentioned being careful with the media blaster, but take my word for it, don’t let anyone do it that hasn’t worked with an MGA in past. The guy that did my car ruined my doors, bonnet and boot lid. Not to mention the glass on the gauges. (he let some grit get in the interior and it hit the faces) |
| Cleve |
| Darian Lots of good advice here. I second Steve's suggestion for a night school class. Check with your local High Schools and Colleges to see if they offer an adult night school Auto-Body class. I have followed this route for what started out as a "ready to paint" MGC project that turned into a complete teardown and dipping of the shell. Body work is nearing completion and hopefully I will get it painted this summer. Advantage of the class is that they should have all of the tools you will need as well as a full paint booth. Having the instructor who can guide you will prevent MANY mistakes along the way. Whatever way you go enjoy the process and then driving your A Larry 58A 69 C in restoration |
| Larry Hallanger |
| The guys re: "NO media blaster on doars,etc." are dead on! One word on color -- don't select your color from a paint chip get the color code you want from a vehicle. Use a good quality gun. And finally, find a local retailer that sells Dupont Centari; you can get a professional quality job with it. Ask them for advise! |
| David Werblow |
| Lots of good ideas here, and I have to say that after reading this I'm not sure what to do about it. I guess I have to do more research. To answer the question, yes that is rust. There's even more on the bulkhead: http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc08513wq2.jpg Not to mention a few dents: http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc08528nw4.jpg http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc08524os6.jpg The trunk is pretty bad, too: http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc08526ba1.jpg Thanks, Darian |
| Darian Henderson |
| Darian, A good panel beater can easily and completely remove those dings. More good news is that your car looks remarkably corrosion free, so little or no welding to do! Neil |
| Neil McGurk |
| I am just now priming my A. I took it off the body last year and did the frame first, Then I had the body, which was in two sections because the sills were rusted out, blasted and sprayed with phosphoric acid solution which keeps the bare metal from rusting and also gets in to any place that you cant see the rust. Then I placed the body back on the frame and welded in new metal and aligned the doors and fenders . I didn't have any aluminum parts blasted. I just used paint remover. I took body back off to spray. I use PPG paint . Epoxy primer followed buy a primer surfacer This allows me plenty of time to finish body work before final painting which will be this fall. This the second car I have done and I have no training only on the job experience. I did help my dad work on his cars but that was 40 yrs ago. You need a place to spray if you do it yourself. I also bought a video on metal shaping. I boubhgt a spot welder from harbor freight and had a wire feed welder.I use a Craftsman gun and a "Good Mask" I use basecoat clearcoat. The hardest part with the A is getting inside engine bay and under body. I built a wooden frame on casters thats 2 feet off ground that body sets on. By taking off fenders, doors and bonnet you don't have any large panels to spray and you can lay the fenders flat so you have less chance of runs. PPg also makes a paint for inside trunk etc that doesn't have to be buffed . Plus when the job is done you get the satisfaction of having done it yorself. |
| C Tarr |
| Darian It looks pretty much as it's all cosmetic - none of those dents are bad (I have had MUCH worse beaten out of my panels). The boot isn't bad - you seem to have solid metal rather than lace.... Most of the cost of getting a car sprayed is in the preparation. If you have time, you can do a lot yourself and hand over to a spray shop for the final paint. Do it right and it will last for years. |
| dominic clancy |
| I have heard of (but never experience)painters that don't want to accept the job of spraying a car prepped by someone else, fearing that they will be blamed for any problems down the road due to prep problems. Has anyone had this experience? |
| Derek Nicholson |
| Darian, I had used PPG paint the first time I painted my TF--had a lot of trouble with it. Sanded it off. Then went to Centari; much better results. Ask Marv. Stuart <ms60mga@aol.com> to send you a photo of his TD. He is much more meticulous than I; used Centari and produced concours results. |
| David Werblow |
| I appreciate the ideas. I'm still sitting on the fence with this, but I'm thinking of getting a cheapo paint job done somewhere, but like I said, I'm still not sure. Darian |
| Darian Henderson |
| Darian, I did my car last two years ago. With very little experience, and only the basic tools. I used PPG paint and clear coat. And if I had to do it again, I'd use a single stage paint. I think that the clear makes the car look a litle too new. Before I painted it, my car was definitly the ugly duckling when I went to a meet. But what surprised me was how many people came up and asked me if I wanted to sell it. They appreciated the fact that it was still original. I think that a stingle stage paint is less glossy and will help to keep the 'original' look of the car. And use a product that will allow you to wet sand and buff any orange peel. PPG concept is beautiful, but if you have to buff it, you better go to the gym first to get in shape. It's dries very hard. good luck, Mike |
| Mike |
| Daran, I just looked at your trunk photo and thought I would pass on another idea. I saw an MGB on Ebay some time ago where the owner had used a black truck bed coating inside his trunk. It looked really nice. |
| Mike |
| Be wary if you go to Earl Scheib, Maaco, etc. to get a cheapie paint job. They do not, repeat, DO NOT care about prepping your car. There is a very good chance that they will be better at spraying the paint than you are, and they usually have a multiyear guarantee on orange-peeling and such, so the paint itself will probably turn out fine. HOWEVER, my best friend just had his '67 VW split window camper done at Earl Scheib and he was pretty pissed off. He did all of the panel repair and sanding and prep. They botched literally ALL of the masking. They painted parts of all the exposed rubber (which they tried to fix, only after he asked, with a sharpie marker), totally screwed up the line for the two-tone, painted the bumpers a slightly different color than the body because they forgot about them- it was pretty unbelieveable. There was a TR6 in there that had the windshield frame and a bunch of chrome painted over... I could go on. Anyway, if you go to a shop like this, do all of your prep work very thoroughly and do all of the masking yourself. Eliminate any way they could possibly screw it up. Even if its going to be a driver, you want it to look nice and these types of shops just don't care about the product. |
| Mark |
| Hello again, I guess some people are curious about this. I did a little of what Mark asked because it also saved me money. I pulled all the panels off, pulled the engine and transmission out, and removed the floor boards. I took it to a hole-in-the-wall place downtown I'd never heard of. They agreed to knock out the dents (there were several) and paint it and I would put it back together. Not a Maaco job, but much cheaper than previous offers. Orginally, I was going to have them pull the panels off and put them back on for me. This guy isn't going to do that, and it also means that instead of 4-6 weeks, he told me I'd have it back in 1.5 since all they have to do is sand, repair and spray. There was a lot of surface rust, but I didn't break any bolts. I had to cut one bolt because the part it screwed into came loose and I couldn't get to it with the panel on. No welding will be needed. Here's some pictures for the curious: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2135/dsc08623sk1.jpg http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8853/dsc08625zb6.jpg http://img455.imageshack.us/img455/5518/dsc08629di4.jpg |
| Darian Henderson |
| Beware that you may have what I had on my car when I bought it. All the wires and cables under the hood were body color. That takes a long time to correct. It would take much less time to mask it all for the guy. |
| Tom |
| Darian, looks really good! If you hadn't planned to do it already, remove the dashboard. It's fairly quick and easy, you can leave all the cables attached. Not only will you avoid overspray but you get rid of the cables from the engine bay. It's also much easier to clean and detail off the car. Once you've done that removing the harness is simple (for the same reasons). Take out the remaining rubber grommets and the rest of the brackets and bits on the bulkhead - hey presto, bare engine bay! Seems like too much work? It's so much less work than cleaning off overspray and the finished result in the engine bay will be so much better. You have support all over the globe! Neil |
| Neil McGurk |
| Oh my, oh my. I wish I had a solid car like that to work on. And only 1 fastener "sacrificed"! |
| Derek Nicholson |
| Darian, Out of interest what's the cassis number? Neil |
| Neil McGurk |
| Hi again, It's too late to remove the dash. It's out of my hands now and is being worked on. I gave them a lot of pieces to paint and now at least once a day I worry that they'll lose one... That's the life of classic car ownership, I suppose. I was also pleasantly surprised by how good condition the inside parts were, considering how rusty everything was on the outside. Most of the rust seems to be from moisture which accumulated on the car sitting in N. California rather than from driving. The screws were another story, however. I had to cut those. I'm not sure what the "chassis number" is. If you're talking about the one that's under the floorboards, I couldn't find it. But here's the VIN number: http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/4100/dsc08626yg1.jpg Seems I've voided the warranty by removing the plate... Darian |
| Darian Henderson |
| Just explain to the guys in Nanjing, I'm sure they'll let you pop down there for any warranty work - although I doubt it needs any! |
| Neil McGurk |
| Several members of the New Orleans British Motoring club approached the Delgado Community College in New Orleans about painting our own cars. 7 of us signed up for the semester course, costing about $ 350 for fees and registration. We all worked on each others cars, and finished all by the end of the semester. Each of us had to spray our own cars in order to complete the course. My 1960 MGA was painted Chariot Red, using Sherwin Williams paint, with clear coat. I used aircraft paint remover, taking all paint off to the metal. I believe the cost of the paint and materials was approximately $ 650. I recently asked several body shops about painting a 1957 Magnette, and the quoted price was in the $ 5000 range. So I may take this course again, and since I am over 60 now, tuition fees are waived. Cliff |
| cliff hughes |
| The Chassis Number is the GHNL2/xxxxx on the plate. The term "VIN" (Vehicle Identification Number) didn't come into use until long after the 'A's demise. |
| Derek Nicholson |
| Actually the Car Number is GHNL2/xxxxx. The chassis number is just the xxxxx part. |
| Barney Gaylord |
| Doug ,Hawaii, After a $11,500 estimate for final finish from good condition bare metal, I've decided to do it myself. The Jaguar site is great; are the "PAINT-U-CATION" DVD's upto date with materials and worth the money? And might I die before it's done? Thanks, Bob Prentice |
| rsa prentice |
| > Seems I've voided the warranty by removing the plate... When my dad signed my MGA's title over to me, I discovered that somehow (what I believe to be) the car's engine number had been entered as the VIN on the title. Since there was a space on the title application to correct the serial number, I entered the correct number on the form. Turned out, I had to have a state trooper show up and inspect the car because of that. The guy was alarmed by the fact that the number plate was held on by screws instead of rivets, but it was fairly obvious it had been there for close to 40 years (at the time). The guy went into great detail about how it was illegal to remove the plate when I restored the car, and how I would have to carefully mask off that area when I repainted it. I just kind of smiled and nodded, and decided not to mention how I was just going to have a new plate stamped with my number, and install that afterwards.... |
| Del Rawlins |
| Hi Bob, I thought the video's were great but it probably depends on where you are starting. i knew nothing about painting a car and this got me to the point where i had at least seen it done once before. the fellow who runs the site (kevin tetz) is sometimes on the car shows on spike tv on saturday morning so you can see if his style suits your taste. he helped me quite a bit on the forum he runs. I was able to get one of the video's from the local library so that helped a lot. if you have good metal you could probably get buy with just one video. The Jag site basicly goes over the steps that the video's do but you get a little more explanation and get to see the steps actually preformed. they were filmed around the year 2000 maybe so current as of that time. it was the most current video i could find. i thought the videos were a cheap investment when you consider a gallon of the base coat i used was $350. the other suggestions about community colleges are great, that would be a good source for things like a paint booth and the spendy compressors that are required not to mention having a mentor right there. starting over i would look into that as well. i took the safety stuff very seriously and bought an air supplied hood and suit and everything. it was a lot of money but relatively cheap when you think of the potential consequences. if you lurk on the paintucation and the autobodystore forums you can pick up quite a bit of knowledge in a couple weeks. good luck! |
| doug |
This thread was discussed between 17/05/2007 and 01/06/2007
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