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MG MGA - Electronic Power Steering
| I have mentioned on another thread that I am trying out a Toyota based Electronic Power Steering system on my car.
Why? Well mostly because a couple of years ago, I tore my right bicep literally in half on a skiing holiday. No it wasn't a skiing accident, it actually happened when I was helping to pull a car out of a snowdrift. Because it was the first day of the trip, I foolishly decided to leave the arm be until I got back home. By that time, it was too late to fix and so now I only have half a bicep on my right arm. This makes the heavy low-speed steering on my MGA a bit more of a challenge. My car has 185x60x15 tyres fitted and a 14" Moto-Lita steering wheel and these are the reasons for the heavy steering at slow speed. I know I could fit narrower wheels and a std size steering wheel to lighten the steering but this would cause me problems fitting into the car because I have raised the front of the seat to finally achieve a fairly comfortable driving position.(it has taken me years to a find this). Plus I really like how the car handles (and how it looks) with the wide wheels and tyres. So when the offer of this EPS kit came from Dominic Clancy last winter, I decided to give it a try. I am coming up to being 70 years old and so my arm strength isn't likely to get better. The idea being that it may allow me to continue driving the MGA for many more years. The EPS kit is based on a pre-ABS Toyota Yaris and is designed and put together by Giovanni Delicio of Germany. It is basically a permanent magnet motor which directly drives the steering column and adds assistance as it senses your steering input to the wheel. So it still has a fixed direct steering column which is why you still get the direct feel from the tyres. Dominic has further developed the kit by very cleverly designing a speed sensor which allows the ECU to gradually reduce the assistance as the road speed increases. So it does work as advertised, parking the car is now a simple one handed affair. The point that Dominic was making about hairpin bends was that, on the standard car, if you come to an unsuspected hairpin bend at speed, it can be a challenge to get the car round it in the limited time available because of the physical effort required. I have experienced this a couple of times. (I know I could drive the car slower, but it is a sports car and I am not old enough to drive it slow just yet😀.) So, as I mentioned in the other thread, I have only driven the car with the EPS a couple of times because of the "lockdown" and so it is too early for me to develop an opinion of it. I have found that if I switch the EPS off,the steering effort and the feel of the car is pretty much the same as the standard MGA and so I could possibly have the best of both worlds with this set up. I do tend to push my MGA pretty hard, it is a lovely car to take on a series of sweeping bends and I don't plan on losing any of that fun. So I plan to live with this setup for this season and then decide if it is going to be a permanent fixture or not. If not, then I reckon that I could convert it back to standard steering in around an hour or two. I will let you all know how I get on with it, hopefully we can all soon get our MGAs back out on the roads where they belong. Cheers Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Still curious Colyn. How does the motor connect to the steering column? Gears, belts ? Or is it directly in line somehow? Art |
| Art Pearse |
| Sorry Art, I didn't answer your question. I understand that the electric motor is connected to the steering column through gearing. It must be fairly free moving motor though because, with the power steering switched off, it doesn't feel much different to that of a standard MGAs. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Colyn
I have complete sympathy with you on trying it out. If if enables you to safely drive the car for more years then it's a good idea. You may need to slow down a bit as your reactions slow up! I think there is likely to be a safety improvement. I sometimes get caught out at low speed hauling on the wheel and expecting I'm going to miss something, then having to stop quickly when I can't make the turn. Is Dominic able to supply the kit to order? Does anyone have experience of the EZ Electric Power Steering systems from The Netherlands? PS I always thought EPS stands for Electric Power Steering compared with Hydraulic Power Steer. When it came in it was the electric power source that was novel. Electronics involved too of course. John |
| John Francis |
| I have the EZ power steering system on my MGBGT V8. I have found it very good. It is adjustable via a control knob and you can switch it down so that it has no effect if you want. In that mode you don’t even know it is there. I haven’t yet got it on the A but would certainly recommend it |
| G Derham |
| Hi John,
Dominic supplied my EPS kit, I believe he test fits each kit before sending them on to the customer, but they originate from Giovanni Delicio in Germany. Delicio supplies them with a manual adjustment potentiometer to adjust the level of assistance and Dominic supplies the dynamic speed related setup like mine. I think that either of them would be happy to give advise about the kits. Mine was the first RHD car to be fitted with the Toyota system and so I helped them sort out a couple installation issues that arose with a RHD setup. Everything has now been updated to suit a RHD car installation. I believe the EZ power steering kit is based on a Vauxhall system but I don't know any more about them than that. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| I have a wussie mate who is also installing the EZ power steering this week. Supplier says job can be done in 5 hours ( we will see). Oz supplier Modern Classic Cars. Mike   |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| The Corsa system doesn't have any facility for the automatic dynamic adjustment that I worked out for the Yaris-based system. The Yaris system is also hugely cheaper than the EZ system, and leaves the original system in place below the steering column knuckle. Five hours is about right to install if everything goes well, plus another couple of hours to install the hall effect sensor at the diff and wire to the ECU under the dashboard. You get the advantage too of a collapsible column. The only visible change from the driver's seat it that the top chrome clamp for the adjustable column is no longer present. Otherwise everything looks standard.
The important thing with the Yaris system is to get the ECU and column from the same car as a matched pair, and the car should be a non-ABS car. This removes all recalibration issues from the conversion. Gio is the guy that makes the basic kit, please contact him directly for prices. The speed sensor details are available on Barney's site and elsewhere on Mustang forums where the Yaris / Prius systems are a very popular replacement for the heavy non- assisted systems or the hydraulic ones that leak |
| Dominic Clancy |
| One of our Gold Coast Club members has a small business installing the Yaris units in MG's. I believe he has installed them in MGA, MGB, and MGB V8. He has an MGA Coupe with all the extras!...electric windows, fuel injection, air conditioning etc. ,,plus power steering! |
| Gary Lock |
| Hi Gary, I have had conversations with Ian Cowan about his version of the EPS conversion, which I understand is also based on the early Toyota Yaris unit. Ian is very enthusiastic about how it performs. I understand that Dave Godwin has had one of Ians EPS kits installed into his wife Laurels MGB V8 and that she loves it. Hope you and Anita are doing ok down there in Oz, Cheers Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Ian kept the whole column assembly from the Yaris, including stalks and steering wheel. I don't know if he has also done the dynamic bit, but would be surprised if he hasn't, particularly as it is so easy. Gio's kit looks standard (apart from missing the adjustable column clamp) and keeps the MGA steering wheel fitment and switchgear. |
| Dominic Clancy |
| Hello,
I have installed this kit on more than 10 cars, most of them MGA's and 2 Morgan's. The kit on the Morgan's is even approved by the german TUEV :-). The whole modification is reversible in 1 hour, if you wish to do so. NOTHING will be modified or drilled on the car ! The kit is supplied "ready to install". I used some special brackets that uses existing bolts. You have to switch your steering wheel from your old steering column to the new one only! I have the kit on 3 of my cars (MGA's) and I use to drive a lot. It's a real pleasure !! I'm sure that Colyn will be very happy to have done the mod and will not go back ! If you need more info, send me an e-mail at: giovanni.delicio@sidel.com Thanks Gio Gio |
| Giovanni Delicio |
| Well Gio's prediction was pretty much spot on,
I have driven the car again today with the EPS switched on and, for the first time, I pushed it pretty hard through a series of challenging bends. To be honest, it felt pretty good, even though the steering was lighter, there was still lots of feedback from the steering wheel, I could feel all the usual tugs and nudges through it from the road. So it still feels like an MGA, but lighter. I will do the same series of bends again in a few days with the EPS switched off and let you all know how it feels without the EPS. Cheers, Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
|
I am glad that you are enjoying your steering Mod. Colyn. It makes the cars a real joy to drive. Great road feel-- Increased responsiveness--- Lighter steering One handed easier parking. How wide are your front tyres? Does the caster self centering return to centre work nicely on your job? You have not mentioned that atribute. It should be noticeable. Yesterday, I completed job number 9--it is a late model M G B Roadster. Its owner is estatic about the conversion. It uses 1.85 tyres. He purchased a new smaller after market wheel for the job- These increase the "Road Feel". Unfortunately, it was made in Asia [guess where ] . Its screw holes are all drilled off centre. An awfull piece of kit. Its boss screws are not properly counter-sunk--they sit up proud. Looked terrible. A top job-- but messed up by a poorly made--expensive--after market item. I had only seen English made "Moto Lita" brand wheel hubs earlier--these are nicely made---but the Slow Boat to China should be well laden with returns of these other awfull items! I have 2 owners awaiting for a kit to be installed---The word is spreading. This is a worthwhile mod. It transforms the cars. So the owners all say. Its surprising that M G "C" owners especially reckon that their original steering system is good! Slow learners ! Good luck to them ! Enjoy your summer season. Nuffield. |
| I.W. Cowen. |
| Hi Ian, I have a friend with An MGC that wants to have the power steering installed. Where do you install the motor ? In footroom or engine bay ?. You may send me an email to giovanni.delicio@sidel.com Thanks Gio |
| Giovanni Delicio |
| Hi Ian I tried sending you a couple of emails yesterday but they bounced back. How can I get in touch? I am in Perth WA email (fjmj.watson@bigpond.com.au) and would appreciate you email address. Thanks Stay safe and Go Well Frank |
| F Watson |
| Hi Ian I must admit that I have not noticed any self-centering effect on my Toyota Yaris based EPS, I will be out in the car again in a couple of days and so I will let you know if it is there. I have some 6" wide rims with 185x65x15 tyres (Firestones) on the car an the very heavy standard steering I believe is down to these and the smaller 14" Moto-Lita steering wheel I have. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Hi Colyn, you will have no "self-centering effect" because the drive reacts only on the input of flywheel ! Imagine what would happen if the sensors would react just because there is a force on the wheels !! You have to turn the steering wheel to have a reaction. This makes the car reacting very precise when cornering. Gio |
| Giovanni Delicio |
| The self entering is there but it is provided by the same forces that were there before with the unassisted steering. As Gio says, it needs a torque applying to the steering column for the system to come into action, otherwise it is doing nothing. To see the effect, find a wide open space and turn in a circle, then let the steering wheel loose and you will find that it centres back into a straight line fairly quickly. The EPS is just assisted and is neutral for effects on the (correctly working) front suspension.
I was out with a couple of other MGAs on Thursday as it was a holiday here, and they mentioned how the car looked much nimbler and tighter in the corners on the pass roads. One drove my car for a short stretch and I think I have notched up another fan! But that may be down to the engine as well. |
| Dominic Clancy |
| I must admit that the performance is incredible with the 1950cc engine fitted, it doesn't seem to have a power band either, it will even pull away from 30 mph in 5th gear and just keep on accelerating until you start to worry about the rpm! Oops! I seem to have hijacked my own thread here.🙂. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| MGC has slower steering ratio than MGA or MGB. MGC requires more turns of the steering wheel to go full lock. Slower steering, but it does give higher mechanical advantage, so the manual effort is not notable higher with the heavier front end. |
| barneymg |
| Colyn Can you take a picture of the underside of your steering column to show what space the motor takes up please? I have a large speaker mounted up behind the dash up behind the dashboard stay and I'm wondering whether there might be a clash with the motor. Gio has said that the motor can be rotated through 360 degrees which is great but just curious about where you have put the motor. Thanks John |
| John Francis |
| Hi John,
the Toyota EPS steering column lies pretty much in the same position as the original MGA column, the only part of the unit that protrudes further into the foot well is the base of the motor where its pinion gear connects with the steering column. But this is only about 2 inches into the foot well space and it comes nowhere near my legs. Like Dominic says, it is completely invisible from the cockpit. The motor is oriented vertically from the column, just inside the dashboard brace and so I would guess that you would have to re-locate your speaker system if you decided to fit an EPS. (I used to have a decent sound system on my MGA but I removed once I realised that I could only hear it if the car was motionless :^) I have attached a couple of pictures for you. Cheers Colyn   |
| Colyn Firth |
| Hi Colyn thanks. That arrangement may well miss my speaker because the motor is to the left of the dashboard stay.
I have been playing with my sound system for a number of years with modified old radios and now a modern old looking radio. I can hear my system up to about 60mph. I have some Alpine 7x5 speakers in boxes. However, the radio reception on the new radio is useless! It's brilliant where I live, about a mile away from the S Wales transmitter but hopeless anywhere else and the RDS doesn't seem to work. The old radio conversions have poor sound quality in my experience. |
| John Francis |
| This is mainly a comment to keep this topic going. How are you finding the eps now. Would love to hear more about it. |
| F Watson |
| My mate installed the EZ system from Modern Classic Cars Aust. He loves it. He doesn’t have the optional speed feedback module but has the manual adjuster. No plans to install at this stage. Was a very simple installation about 3 hrs. Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| Hi Frank,
I have driven the car a little bit more since I last posted and I think I must be getting more acclimatised to the EPS. The lighter steering is becoming the new normal, so now, when I switch it off, the steering reverts back to standard manual MGA steering and I find that I tend to notice the heavier steering. I haven't noticed any "self-centering" effect with the EPS, but my car didn't "self-centre" before I fitted it and so I didn't expect it to be any different. It still feels pretty responsive though and you still get all the tugs and twitches of feedback through the steering wheel from the road. From what I have experienced so far, it feels pretty good on the quicker road sections too, just as much fun as before. So I think its a keeper. I will keep reporting back. Cheers Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Colyn, Why does your car have no self centering of the steering? Self centering is caused by the caster angle of the front suspension. This should be 4 degrees. Mick |
| M F Anderson |
| Mick I have been concerned that my car doesn't seem to have as much self- centering that it used to before a restoration 12 years ago. I have done quite a lot of investigation and have made particularly sure that the king pin trunions are very free. However, I only really notice any significant self-centering when I go round a roundabout. I have been puzzled by it but have never been able to improve it and have got used to it. I don't really notice it when driving. John |
| John Francis |
| Well, checking the "self-centering" on my MGA was a great excuse today to go for a quick run out, not that I need much of an excuse to drive it😀 when the weather is warm and dry for a change.
I went on a fast 10 mile drive on some minor roads with the idea of checking to see how much "self-centering" effect my steering actually has. The self centering effect is not immediately obvious when you first first drive off, but when driving on the faster bends I did notice some s/c effect if I eased my grip on the steering wheel. There was a bit more obvious self-centering effect present when I was cornering quickly on a roundabout, but it is not so strong as to rapidly centre the steering if I release the wheel. So at least my cars steering does have some s/c although it is quite a subtle effect. As I have mentioned, the 6" wide wheels and 195 radial tyres probably have something to do with this. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Hi folks, this is a pic of the EPS I'm supplying. You may see that it can be delivered also for RHD cars. Of course the steering wheel is NOT included :-) Gio  |
| Giovanni Delicio |
| And I can supply the diff flange collar and sensor for making it completely dynamic, Gio could ave the (expensive) potentiometer for the manual adjustment - the flange and sensor are much cheaper to source. |
| Dominic Clancy |
| Hi Dominic, you could supply me some of your dynamic devices and I'll include it as an option ! Just give me a call. Gio |
| Giovanni Delicio |
| Hi Gio I'll have some collars printed for you next time you visit, plus a list of all the other bits required. @ John Francis, btinternet rejects my emails, do you have an alternative email address? It's a problem with BT, I have the issue with all BT internet adresses....... |
| Dominic Clancy |
This thread was discussed between 17/05/2020 and 17/06/2020
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