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MG MGA - Grille Purgatory

I've been banished to Grille Purgatory, punished for the sin of trying to replace the rusty grille in the A.

How much problem have ya'll had with fitting repro grilles? I bought both the cheap Moss repro and the more expensive grille from California. Both have their issues.

The bottom brackets on the repro grille are too short to reach the holes in the body. They aren't even the same length. They are in the right position for the body holes but were obviously put onto the vane assembly by someone who didn't give a crap about where they went. I compared the new bottom bracket lengths to the ones on the rusted repro grille that came off the car and the new ones are shorter.

The California grille is very pretty, nice chrome and stainless vanes. The brackets are out of position. It seems as though the center is off a little and the left is off even more. The hole for the motif was drilled at an angle so it doesn't sit flat against the grille. The stud for the motif isn't long enough to go all the way through the grille and get a nut on the other side.

I'm going to contact the California guy and see what he has to say. That grille wasn't cheap. I had hoped to have better and easier results with it.
Wray Lemke

I got to visit with a professional restorer who was working on an MGA a few months ago. The number one piece of advice I remember taking away from him was to get the grill early on, and shape the front shroud to fit the gril.

Probably won't help you....

Safety fast!

JMG
JM Greenlee

Wray, As I remember, after slicing myself up good getting that teflon-stuff off the vanes of the Moss Cheap-O I found the same problems. Sent for another. Just as bad. It was good though to avoid another blood-sacrifice. I Bent the brackets straght to stretch to the holes. Then the shell failed to match the conture of the surround, more convincing. Now it looks pretty good. I would change the shape of the grill before changing the shape of the car. Steve.
Steve Meline

I used the Moss replacement last year as part of a full frame-up restoration of a MKII. I didn't even think of modifying the body to match the grill (don't know if I would have even if it occurred to me). The Moss grill is not a good fit, and it required loosening up all of the hardware that is on it - there are tensioning bolts/nuts that hold it together. With those loose, a very strong buddy of mine just kept bending it across his chest (sideways - left to right) and knees (top to bottom) until we had a decent fit as we tightened up the hardware again. It was hard to watch RJ bend it, as I thought he would snap it in half, but it eventually fit after a full evening of sweat, curses and skinned knuckles.

- Ken
Ken Doris

My Moss grill had similar fit problems, it takes some patience, some colorful invectives and a bit of problem solving ability. This is what I did: on initial test fit I realized this wasn't going to be easy or pretty. My car had not gotten it's new paint yet, so I was able to concentrate on getting the grill right, without worrying about ruining a big dollar paint job. I determined that this would have to be a two stage operation. First--get the grill slats to fit properly. This amounted to a lot of bending and adjusting--but eventually it got to the pooint where everything could be aligned and attached. Next, I approached the shell with equal determination. Gently bending and flexing it, slowly brought into the same shape as the front of the car. Once it fit, I attached it to the already in place slats and left it on the car. Evry few weeks, I tightened up the fasteners holding the shell to the innner slats. I did this for about six months, while I was working all the bugs out before dissassembling again for paint. When the new finish was on, and it was time for final reassembly, the grill went on very easily. I still did it as two pieces, rather that a single unit, as I found it easier that way.
R. L Carleen

Thanks for the ideas. The maker of the nice grille is helping out, which is a relief. Meanwhile, I'm tackling the Moss repro. If it just would have been put together correctly when made it would not take much to get it to fit right.

I drilled out the rivets that held the botom brackets and removed them. They then got flattened out in the vise and re-bent so they would be long enough. After slicing one of my fingers and cussing the grille for a no-good POS, I riveted the brackets back on. Now all I have to do is take it all back apart and move the top bracket over about 1/4". Soon as I get more rivets. And a new rivet gun. And my finger quits bleeding.

I should have paid better attention to Steve's warning about the blood-letting.
Wray Lemke

My 0.02c worth.
From Moss UK I purchased the outer shell, but this did not fit my Bars, which were OK and I damaged the new outer shell whilst trying to fit it.

I returned this and purchased a whole new grille, which looked like it was going to take several hours to fit, so I have not done so, so far.

It appeared to be much thicker than my standard item also.

I know Barney maintains a list of faulty parts, perhaps these should be posted there also.
http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/faulty/ft_parts.htm

What has been Moss's response to the fitting problem so far.

I am thinking of returning mine and purchasing a new outer shell from here.

http://www.sportscarmetalworks.com/prices.htm
Not listed though, but he had some at Silverstone.

Cheers <MARK>
Mark Hester

At one time not long ago Moss had a statement in their catalog that said if you wanted a good fit with the reproduction grill you should grind it to match the body and rechrome it.
John H

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but if a company like Moss KNOWS that the repro grille they're selling doesn't fit properly, why do they continue to sell it? To issue such a statement seems ludicrous to me.
Andy Bounsall

My guess is that most people don't complain.
That's why Barney's Faulty Parts area is brilliant.

My suggestion to you is to take some photo's of your experience and offer them to Barney.

If he chooses to post them, as he has in the past for me (Thanks again Barney) then forward on the link to Moss to add weight to your argument.

Something like the Grill is an important issue if we can't get quality new one's.

Incidentally does yours have a plastic crest which doesn't follow the contours of the grill shell ?

Cheers <MARK>
Mark Hester

That's a good idea Mark, but if Moss issued such a statement then they already know their part doesn't fit properly, and have publicly admitted it. But they continue to sell it. That's what I don't understand. If they and everyone else knows what's wrong with the part, can they not have their supplier correct it?
Andy Bounsall

Andy,
I think this is an ongoing problem with all too many parts Moss is supplying.

But you can't bite the hand that feeds you.

All you can do is make them aware that if they continue to supply faulty parts, then they will be returned.

I don't mind being told that it's an average part at a cheep price, but if they offer you a part which some people will be fitting to concourse cars and it takes another 5 hours to fit, then that's where I draw the line.

I'm sure they can get it right, they just need encouragement.

Mine came in a box from Tasker Metal Products.
http://www.taskermetalproducts.com/html%20files/mga%20and%20mgb(f).htm#grilles

Perhaps we should ask them why their product is so bad...

Cheers <MARK>
Mark Hester

Mark, I agree with you. I'm going to drop Moss a note about it just to raise the point that the cheapo grille would almost be a reasonable replacement if they just put it together right. One the other hand, why sell a cheap grille at all? Charge more for it and make it correct. I'm sure a lot of us would like to buy a grille for $130 that was concours grade but that ain't gonna happen at that price. So, charge more for a better product. If I'm going to sink a chunk of money into the car why would I mind paying twice that amount for a good grille? It's become a challenge now, to make the grille fit. I ain't spilling my blood for nothing...
Wray

Hello all,
When I was restoring my car, the original grille needed rechroming. The shell actually cleaned up decent on mine (1500). The chrome was shot and it had a little rust un the inside. I thought of replacing it, and E-mailed Moss about the quality of the grilles. They said if you have a decent one, that rechroming is the way to go. So, I had the shell rechromed. The stainless bars were in good shape so these were just buffed. My shell had a few stone dings in it, which the rechromer took out, and it turned out realy nice, and of course fit the car.
If your old shell is not too bad, a good rechroming shop service should be able to make it look ike new again, and the fit problems will be eliminated, and you have an original, which is always nice. Just a thought.
Ralph
Ralph

Wray, I agree that most owners/restorers will pay more for a quality part. My point is that if they CAN make a lower quality part and have determined that there is a market for a lower quality, I can't understand why it'd be anymore expensive or difficult to make a lower quality part that fits than it is to make a lower quality part that doesn't fit.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not flaming Moss. I think it's great that they're able to offer so many parts for a beloved little cars. I just don't understand the logic behind making/selling a part that you know isn't right. Why not just make it right to begin with?
Andy Bounsall

Have people checked the fit of grilles from one car to another? Maybe the problem is more than that the grille is poor quality, but instead that the noses of the cars have over the last 50 years been damaged and are no longer what they once were? Could it also be that the originals were hand fit to each car? I am just posing questions, as I have not yet checked on this on my cars.
mike parker

I tend to think like Mike--I had a really crappy grill on my part's car. The one I was restoring had a MKII grill--that's the only replacement that was available 'way back when. The new Mos unit was a fair fit--but stood proud at various points. I set the grill shell from the partsmobile in it's place and the fit was worse. Got a feeling that the grill shells were hand-fit at the factory--l;ike mnost of the body work was. I'm just glad that Moss offers a reasonably priced replacement--even if it does take some work to get it to fit (and eventually they do).

Is this part of the modern attitude where everyone wants a guarantee, warantee, and a totally stress free life? Life is full of small obstacles--great big huge ones and "in betweens". The measure of a person is how he deals with life's little speed bumps. Please don't take this last comment too seriously. Remember: life is 100% fatal. In the greater scheme of things--oddly fitting grills is spectacularly insignificant.
R. L Carleen

Mike, it is indeed probable that the front of my car has been changed a bit. After all, it is 49 years old. The grille does sit proud at the bottom corners and the only way to I can see to make it fit is to shave the grille shell. I'm going to check out an MGA that belongs to a friend and look at his grille to see how it fits. His car is very original.

RL, I agree. I knew going in that the repro was going to be a hassle to fit and I'm still glad that Moss is able to sell me one. My post was never meant to beat on Moss, just trying to plumb ya'lls experience in making it fit. Which I actually have, sort of.

And Andy's point is well taken, too. It probably wouldn't take any more work to put the parts in the right place during manufacturing than to put them in the wrong place.
Wray Lemke

Wray,

So what's the long and the short.
How did you get the thing to fit properly and how long did it take you ?
<MARK>
Mark Hester

Before everybody gets too excited, I saw this statement in a catalog about three or four years ago. They may have changed vendors since then. Like any MG body part, it is likely to change from car to car.
John H

Mark, I have just about got it to fit. I got smart and started wearing gloves whenever I handle it since the backs of the vanes are razor sharp.

Fitting it involved removing the vane assembly from the grille shell and drilling out the rivets that hold those brackets that weren't right. The bottom brackets were flattened out and re-bent to increase their reach. The brackets themselves are long enough but the right angle bend was too far away from the point where it attaches to the vane assembly.

Two of the top brackets are out of position. Part of this was because the two posts, that hold the top of the vane assembly with speednuts, are tacked to the inside of the shell in the wrong place. It's possible to elongate the holes in the vane assembly and move it over a bit, which I did. Still not enough. Drill out the rivets, remove the brackets, drill new holes, re-attach the brackets.

All this seems like a lot flailing around. I reckon I could have just beat and twisted the snot out of it and got it to sort of fit, but I enjoy making something work. The last thing I have to do is to figure out how to keep the piping on the grille at the bottom corners. It sits too proud of the body at that point and won't trap the piping between the grille and body. Suggestions would be appreciated. Glue, maybe?

I'd also like to say that the maker of the nice grille, Jorge Cervera, is going way out of his way to make sure his grille is correct and he is paying shipping both ways to get the grille back and check it out. His product is more than twice as expensive as the Moss grille but there is no comparison between the two both in material and workmanship.
Wray

Wray,

Do understand that you gave up on the Moss grille and purchased a Jorge Cervera Grille? Have they got a web site ?

My grille has perfect bars, but the outer part is very dented and split (so not usable).

If I were to take the tabs of the old Grille would I be in business with the Moss grille I have ?

I also thought the Moss grille was allot thicker than my old one.... if that makes sense... Did you notice that ?

Thanks for the instructions above.

Cheers <MARK>
Mark Hester

Wray,
Does Jorge have an internet address or street address/ph # folks can reach him at?

Fit for MGB grilles regardless of source seems to have not been much better or different, and one has to wonder if makers aren't slaves to their existing tooling and if their tooling was not set up copying bad or "adjusted" "originals"??? A bad assumption could lead to bad results.

When I replaced The front grille on my B, I noted that of all the assorted B grilles in my pile, they all fit differently, even if they appeared to be "original". As the body panels came together on a car like the MGA, which was mostly hand fitted and done by choosing the best fit for the individual circumstance as they came down the line, one has to speculate if "beat to fit, bend to match" might not have been how original fitment was also done.

We may be chasing our tails to expect that fit of such parts was as strictly delineated as it is today for today's production standards. Don't know this is true, but I would bet someone like John Twist ought to have an opinion about this, having worked on these cars for as long as he has. I am sure he or Mr. Clarke (Clarke Spares) could give a savvy comment on what they have seen in aggragate over the years.
Bob Muenchausen

http://www.jaguarbyjorge.com/MG.htm
John

I recently bought a grille from Jorge Cevera to replace the grille on my '56 roadster that was irrepairably damaged when somone backed into the front of my car. It's a quality part and is very nice looking. I didn't mind that the part was quite expensive. If you order from them, be fore-warned that I did get dinged on shipping. They charged me 178% of the actual shipping cost!
Andy Bounsall

While we are on the subject of grills...Has anyone seen, or, better yet, owned a brass shell MGA grill?

I have heard that they exist, but the two "original" MGA shells that I have personally owned have both been plated steel.

Just curious as to whether the brass shell is real or an urban myth.

Thanks,
Steve
Steve Brandt

Mark, yes and no. I am currently fitting the Moss grille figuring I got nothing to lose if I hose it up. I did buy a Jorge Cervera grille based on things others had posted. His grille is quite nice and he seems to be genuinely interested in getting it right. His grille weighs twice what the Moss grille does.

I'd originally bought the Moss grille but before I put it in I bought Jorge's grille. Ran into a couple of minor problems with Jorge's grille so I thought I'd do the Moss grille while I was sorting the issues out on the Jorges grille. He makes his grilles using an original as the guide, for whatever that's worth. It is a nice piece.

I'm willing to drill and beat the Moss grille but not Jorge's grille; it's too nice. Getting the brackets right on Jorge's grille should be all it takes, seems as if two of the brackets are just a bit out of position.

The new Moss grille doesn't seem any thicker than the old one. I did find out something that may be of interest: if you order a motif (Jorge's grille does not come with one) from Moss, it is different than the one that comes on the repro grille. The separately ordered motif is much nicer, looks better, however, the stud (10-28 thread)is much shorter (7/8") than the one that comes with the repro grille (1 1/2"). This causes a problem with Jorge's grille since it is much thicker at the badge bar. He says he will make it work by machining an extension.

The difference in the grilles can be seen here:

http://www.mgbexperience.com/phorum/read.php?2,253443,254626#msg-254626
Wray

I regularly buy spares from Brown & Gammons Ltd in England (www.ukmgparts.com)and have always been happy with the goods they supply. I assume they post to the USA etc. there parts catalouge is very comprehensive, and prices compare favourably with other suppliers. Hope this helps someone.
Nigel Munford

Steve,

I believe the grille shell from my 1962 MKII is brass. I am trying to have it re-chromed but since it is cracked on the edges it needs to be braised first.
M Gannon

Steve- I have on my car (a 1600) right now a Moss grill from the 80's and it's steel.However the original,which is dented and cracked,is brass.I also have a original that is someday going to make it on to the car that I bought used from Todd Clarke, which is also brass.I have also heard that there are some reproduction plastic ones out there also. Wray - my original badge has an approximate stud length of 1 1/2"

Nigel- We cant afford the exchange rate to buy from the UK. Several years ago I bought a reproduction wood wheel from Moss for 400+ change, it broke my heart but I had to have one.I get a catalog from Moss last month it's up to 800 and then this weekend I recieved another catalog and it's 900, so not only do I have to hide my wheel ,but now the grill as well!
gary starr

As far as I know, all original grille shells were brass. I have one, left over from my MGA "factory" days. In the late 60's we were fixing peoples everyday cars, and I straightened quite a few - new ones were "horribly expensive"! Careful work would keep the chrome from peeling, but it did crack and never rusted -they'll turn green though. Many folk just wanted their beater to look passable. By the mid 70's, OEM parts were getting scarce, and we were doing the first restorations. There were crappy JCWhitney steel insta-rust repros, and another repro that looked fairly decent but was steel and would rust if dinged. I heard that there was a cast aluminum one, but never saw it. I got pretty good at straightening dings, because OEM shells were really hard to find, and restored cars needed to look quite good. I never saw a grille shell that seemed to be original that was not brass.
Grilles always had to be fitted to the car, but since they don't rust, there was no reason to be replacing the grille on an undamaged car, so I can't say if they all had to be tweaked from the factory. Any car punched in the nose (most of them!) required fitting, and we soon learned to get the grille first and fit car and grille together. Getting the curves "right" is difficult to impossible otherwise. We made templates from "undamaged" cars, which got it all close, then worked nose and grille together.
FRM
FR Millmore

I have a steel shelled grille on the car at the moment. It's at least 25 years old, and it fits fairly well. I've also got a brass shelled grille being rechromed at the moment. Fits perfectly as is -- all the brackets in the right position, etc. I'm so used to beating on parts to make them fit that it's an almost magical surprise to get a part that fits so well. I had the same experience a while ago with headlamp parts. I found a set of original headlamp rims, retainer rings, and inner buckets, and they fit perfectly -- no grinding of mounting tabs, redrilling holes, muscling headlamp rims into place, etc. The parts were much heavier, with better finish work too.
Mark Lambert

Clausager's Original MGA notes on page 25: "The radiator grille had a chrome-plated brass case......."

Steve
Steve Gyles

With everyone criticizing Moss, why not change companies? I have been using Scarborough Faire with pretty good success. Cecelia really knows the cars and how to fix them. Their prices are less than Moss and VB and I feel as though I get excellent service. I feel as though she knows me, which is worth a lot.
Jack
Jack Weiss

Original MGA grilles were chrome plated brass - ALL of them. Anyone with a steel grille has a repro (not necessarily bad). I obtained a NOS brass/chrome grille awhile back before they became hen's teeth. It fit very well but not perfectly. I think the problem was more of the car's bodywork contors than the grille,as it had been in a previous and long ago shunt- but the grille did need some minor "adjustments" to make it fit and hold the piping. Why do you think they call body technicians "panel beaters" in Jolly ole?
Brian

I think Mike and FR are on to something. If you ever visit a wrecking yard, you'll be hard pressed to find a sports car that was not wrecked in the front end. I guess that says something about the way people drive them. I suspect that an MGA that is still shaped in the front EXACTLY as it left Abdington is a rare bird.

...AND, probably there was a little hand-selecting and hand-fitting going on at the factory as well.

At least these cars don't look like a modern cookie cutter econo-box.

Safety fast!

JMG
JM Greenlee

JM,
It wasn't the way people drove them, it was where they parked. The typical American pig of the day had a rear bumper that cleared the over riders, much like SUVs do now. And the low cars were hard to see, even if the parker to the front thought to look in a mirror, and if he/she even HAD side mirrors - not standard on most cars. The rear deck on your typical big Buick or similar would totally block all view of a Healey or MGA, and the rearmost protrusion of the bumper would hit about mid-headlamp, the badge on an A grille, or halfway up a Magnette grille. If you were really lucky, after smashing in your nose, the offender would be hooked over your overriders and consequently couldn't get away! But, it was not uncommon to find the car moved with the overriders pulled out and down from one that escaped.
FRM
FR Millmore

Guys:

Just noticed the thread and thought to clarify a couple of things. Bob pretty much hit the nail on the head about tooling for parts like grilles. Every car is different, so it is impossible to make one tool that is going to fit every car. In the case of the MGA grilles there are currently only two suppliers: Tasker Metal Products and Jorge Cervera.
Quality and fit of the Tasker grille has always been an issue and one that Moss Motors has spent many, many, many days pursuing. Unfortunately if there is a cheap product already on the market there is very little demand for a higher quality one, so the risks involved in tooling become high. When Tasker changed to a plastic shell without notifying Moss purchasing staff a couple of years ago Moss did purchase a number of good condition original grilles to try to create tooling for their own higher quality version. Interestingly none of the original grilles matched each other or the original archive prints which we have. At that time we came very close to authorizing tooling, but Tasker resumed production of the metal grille and so removed the major differentiation between the products. One thing to really keep in mind is that even if a high quality product is manufactured completely to spec, it still would probably not fit all of the cars correctly.

I hope this clarifies a few things. There is no excuse for passing off junk for good quality, so don't think that I am trying to calm stormy waters. In the case of the Tasker MGA grilles, fit and finish is on average pretty good. Not as nice as would be liked and getting them to fit on the car can be a major pain (make sure you take your tetanus shots). Without having a car to fit them to, I'd think it almost impossible for the assemblers to make them perfect. Specific problems with fit can be addressed through the supplier, but real measurable information is necessary to achieve a discourse. If there is a definable problem, chances are there is already someone working on trying to make it better. In my own case, I've got 3 MGA restorations to look forward to so getting this stuff right is a personal crusade. The information you folks have posted here is very useful and will help both myself and the Moss tech folks to figure out how to help customers to fit these grilles.

regards

Kelvin.




KJ Dodd

Kelvin- Points well taken I suppose if Moss could go and have the original grill reproduced either off-shore or by the oem manufacture few could probably afford it,ie like your excellent repro of the optional wood steering wheel.If you must have a perfect brass one it would be best to have it fitted to your car.On my restoration, I have fitted a front surround from Simon Robinson and needed to adjust grill to fit. And thanks for confirming the plastic grill, I thought they were out there but was not sure. Gary
gary starr

I have an original grill and its brass.

I also another grill that is cast brass or bronze. The grill is ~3/16 inch or so thick and weighs a bunch. Does anyone know anything about this grill? Is it an early repop of some sort?
Bill Haglan

You know it's interesting. I had an original A grill for sale on ebay for $50.
It needed very little work plus a re chroming and no one was interested.
Baz

Kelvin, thanks for jumping in. For the most part I am fairly satisfied with the Moss (Tasker) grille. For the price I didn't expect OE quality. The more I work on this issue the more I learn. The grille itself is decent, the problem is with the assembly. The two top posts are badly out of position, resulting in the vane assembly being too far over to one side, on the order of about 3/8". This put the top brackets out of position. The other issue is the brackets themselves. They are too short overall. I compared their length to the brackets on the repro grille I removed and the difference in length is pronouced. It may well be that the repro grille I removed had its brackets bent and sort of scranged into place (by the PO) to make them long enough but its top posts and vane assembly were indeed in the correct position so the brackets lined up with the holes in the body.

In any case I'd like to reiterate that I appreciate the ability to even get a replacement grille so thanks, Moss, for that.
Wray

Folow up notes:

Gary: "oem manufacture"? Dream on lad, the OE companies are all stamping out Honda pieces by the million. These pieces have to be done by cheap hand labor either in the east, or in Mexico.

The Tasker plastic grilles were actually pretty nice and something should be said that Tasker chose to use modern grille technology on our old fossils. Unfortunately the market was not ready for plastic Honda type grilles on their MGAs and Tasker responded by going back to metal. Which should make you think about the investment they lost trying to come up with a better idea.

Bill: Sorry, I don't have any information on other grilles, but heavier brass ones were available as repros for some time. When I had just started up at Moss the quality on the grilles dropped and the part number was changed to the 900 series number and a disclaimer added to the catalogs.

Baz: I feel for you. Sometimes the vagaries of the used parts market make you wonder. It seems that many people believe that if it is not perfect, then it's junk.

Wray: Your concise descriptions are appreciated. We are building up a data base and "fact file" that will live on the web, so that customers can get accurate information about fitting and use problems. If we can't get perfect parts we want to do our best to let our customers know what they are in for BEFORE they buy.

cheers

kelvin.
KJ Dodd

Kelvin, thank you. A lot of this stuff is a learning experience and thanks to Fletcher, RL, and the others, there is a pretty vast knowledge base. Mark sums it up nicely about beating parts into submission, we're all fairly used to buying a part and popping on. But, as with the Magnette, I find that the older the car, the more massaging it takes.

Actually, apart from cussing the grille when it sliced a finger open, it would not be a bad deal, if only they had put the top posts in the correct position. Putting them in the wrong position had to be as much work as doing it right. Then they would have fit and the length thing could have been worked out much easier. I solved this by taking the brackets off (again), cutting them, and welding in about a 1/4" in length. We'll see tomorrow.

I reckon the most annoying thing is how long it's taken. I replace the entire driver's side suspension on the Magnette in less time than it's taken me to get to this point with the grille on the A. I got things to do! Need to get the A out of the way so I rearrange my hurricane panels. It's that time of the year.
Wray Lemke

Kelvin- I think you took me wrong about oem manufacturing, However that is why the Japanese have and perhaps the Chinese will have us and the Brits on the ropes, you can go to your local Honda motorcycle dealer and still get many oem parts for your 25-30 year old Honda, and they are not from some 3rd world country.
gary starr

This thread was discussed between 06/08/2005 and 28/08/2005

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