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MG MGA - HOW TO POLISH A TURD

It really could have been a nice car. If you go this far why cant you do it right?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1957-MGA-1500-Roadster-British-Racing-Green_W0QQitemZ200008613604QQihZ010QQcategoryZ80750QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
The car looks real good on E-Bay except for the wheels. Then he spoils it by linking to the "restoration" pictures.
I cant understand how someone can justify the asking price on a car that was done so poorly. Why would he fix it up only good enough to put shiny paint on and new interior in it? The rust repair was done so poorly and the frame was never off or addressed making this car the prettiest candidate in need of a frame off I have ever seen.
How common is this type of fix up? Is someone proud of this type of work? And more importantly how can a buyer protect himself from an E-Bay sale on a car like this?
Are there people that take so little pride their work that they can do this? Or worse yet are they actually are proud of it?
Am I being reasonable when I blanch at such a car. Or I am in too nasty a mood from waking up at 3am with an upset stomach unable to sleep.
For me you haven't started a restoration until you chip the slag off the frame from the original welds after it has been sandblasted.
R J Brown
R J Brown

Hey Big mouth...whats your problem.
I was the restorer of that car I do not appreciate your slanderous comments.
If the body was not taken off the car, maybe its because the owner of the car, the guy paying the bill DIDN'T want a "concours" restoration and DIDN'T want to PAY for a "body off" job.
The job was NOT shoddily done and I am quite proud of it. Everyone who saw the car was also impressed. Including the people at the Greenwich (CT) Concours D-Elegance that invited the car to attaend.

So maybe you should get off your easy chair and post some photos of your FINE work, and stop sitting back and criticizing work that you have NOT seen.
What a jackass.
Peter Cosmides
Motorcar Garage
Pete

Pete,
IMHO, that's really nice work. I am trying to replace the sills now with the body on (so I don't really screw it up) and I would hope mine is at the least close to your quality. I think that for someone who wanted a body-on resto it turned out great. Don't give the guy who started this a second thought.
Scott

It is easy to play God on the internet, that's why so many do it.
mephisto

I guess I was in too nasty a mood to write this morning and for that I apologise. I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. No other comments than the shop that was ask to do a partial job. Peter the work done looks beautiful it just is not enough, in my opinion, to justify the price ask. A $29,000.00 price demands a complete job. It appears you did well what was paid for. It is sad that the beauty is only skin deep. Restore is not what was done. My point was the E-bay listing and photos could mislead. It is obvious to me that the car will never reach his minimum if he thinks 29 is reasonable.
I hoped to discuss 3 points. #1 how often is a partial job like this is done?, I mean how common is this type of car? #2 Where is the value in a car like this and how do you compare it to a full restoration. To me the car is much more than a daily driver but not near where it could be. #3 How can a buyer protect himself on E-Bay, the car IS so pretty on the outside that a disappointed buyer is likely if he believed what I think this phrase implies. " The car has had very little use since its restoration was completed this spring, but was accepted and shown at the 2006 Greenwich Concours d'Elegance."
Fortunately the link to the repair work allows all to see what is for sale. The car might have sold without it. If and when it re lists will the link be missing?
R J Brown

Well I for one can appreciate a non frame off restoration. I have a 1960 MGA that I am quite proud of. The body has never been off the frame and in my opinion the car has been "restored" with fresh paint, new interior, rebuilt drive train and suspension. The frame is solid and the body to the frame is dry, straight and tight. Many enthusiasts I have spoken too are envious of the fact that I have a dry rust free and unmolested frame to body configuration and suggest that it makes the car more desireable because of the original integrity. As for Pete's $29K price .... it's a "buy it now" price .... no one is asking R J Brown to pay it. It's "Pete's" listing ... he can price it however he chooses to. I think R J Brown should have taken a rollaids and gone back to bed instead !!!

Mike
1960 MGA
1973 MGB
Michael Hosier

RJ. et al. Please forgive me. I have seen this type of thread, ad nauseum.

Why do people, supposedly MG owners, tend to pick apart such sales?

What is the basic, personal, inpulse to do so?

I am, fairly well recognised, and an MG person. I have owned quite a number of MGs over the years, including a couple of MGAs. One of which, I hope to restore for my younger daughter.

Since the restoration is of historical significance, at least to me. (My room mate at F.E. Warren Air Force Base, back when we were Missile Launch Officers, purchased a 1961 MGA 1600 from my, then, Missile Launch Crew Commander, one Henry Campbell. I went off to another combat operations job--in Germany, while my room mate, Jim Townson, had to settle for a REMF job in Intelligence, in Austin, Texas} When it came time for Jim to travel overseas, I was back in the US on "temporary duty" at a professional school, Squadron Officers's School". This meant, that not being stationed in the US, I needed transportation. Jim had mentioned, in a letter, e-mail not being an option at that time, that he planned on taking his 66 Corvette to England and, thus, the MGA was available.

I sent Jim a cheque for $1600, a thousand dollars more than he had paid my, then, commander for the car. (He had the engine rebuilt in Cheyenne and had put on new tires.)

Jim delivered the car to my sister, living in Dallas, Texas and she took him to the airport using airport transfers tunbridge wells. Then, she and her boy friend picked me up at the same airport and I drove the MGA back to Alabama,where I was attending the Squadon Officer's School. (The top half of Air Force Officers are offered the oppotunity to attend in residence.)

The MGA has not started on its own since I came back on leave in 1980. When I finish restoring the MGBs in my immediate (i.e. the ones I drive daily) collection, I will start the restoration of the MGA for my younger daughter to be finished when she completes her "double doctorate"--Doctor of Medicine and Doctor of Nerology. That is the only "graduation present" that she wishes from the "old man".

We have the financial and technical resources available to restore the car to as new condition. But, that is not what Maria wants. We are planning a number of upgrades,both in engine and transmission, to make the car more adept in modern traffic.

Thus, I have spent a rather long time in detailing where I am coming from, to establish the fact that I have owned MGA form the mid 1970's when they were "just another old sports car". I am spending my spare time attempting to help others restore their cars while, in the mean time, they are attemping to help me restore mine.

Thus, why all of the BS about something which has shown up on E-Bay??? If you do not like it, ignore it. None of us have, last time I checked, have allowed you to get the "Guru" of what is correct.

Perhaps I have missed something?

Les
Les Bengtson

Let me make one thing clear. I (my shop) restored this car for the current owner. It is HIS car, HE is listing it on EBAY, not me. I was responding to the negative comments by RJ.
Is the car worth the "buy it now " price? I know what he has into the car and I also know its a very nice car that drives very well. He has the right to ask whatever he wants for the car and I am sure someone who actually see's the car in person and drives it will feel differently than the "online armchair critics" that have become so prevelent lately.
My suggestion to you foks who insist on critiqing Ebay cars is to get off your computer, start up "your" British car and DRIVE it. Thats what the hobby is about.

Pete
Pete

Cheers, Pete! Critiquing Ebay sales for a laugh is great fun, but comments of RJs type should be ignored. Let him have a bad day by himself.
Jeff Schlemmer

Sorry - I forgot to mention something. Great work Pete!!! The car is beautiful!
Jeff Schlemmer

I agree with Pete, if someone likes the car then they can buy it if they don't then they don't!!! There are here and it is not R.J. some cheque book enthusiasts mixed with others. The word restored was discussed at great length recently due to another restored car being advertised on ebay. It was embarrasing to say the least. The opinion was that no car unless 100 percent as was at the factory gate should be classed as restored. I find that repulsive to everyone who has ever tried to make their car better. What is not understood is the fact that a restored car fitting that description does not exist.
But hey what do I know, I only spent 4 years of my life putting together a pile of scrap that wouldn't even be classed as a parts car in the USA for a couple of thousand pounds cause thats all the money I had. Stuff your views!
Bob (robert) I am turning? yes I once owned an MGWasp!!

The car looks beautiful to me. I can see how a concours would accept such a car, and I'd be more than happy to drive it. The fact that it wasn't a body-off powdercoat-everything-in-sight restoration isn't really relevant. As Pete says, the guy got what he paid for. I wouldn't pay $29K for the car, but that's my problem. I think buying a car sight unseen from a stranger and based only on a few photographs is taking a risk, but that's also my problem.

I think it's interesting that the owner clearly put a chunk of change into the restoration, took a couple of years for the project to complete, and now wants to sell it. It's a truism that you almost never get out what you put into a car like an MGA, and I would imagine most people who do any kind of restoration on an MGA do it because they love the car and want to drive it.

Finally, comment for Pete: the master cylinder cover looks interesting and different -- very clean and low. I also like the supplementary gauge panel.
Mark Lambert

Note to Mark - the alloy master cylinder reservoir (not correct on a 1500 like this, of course) is one of two versions, high and low.

I had to get a low to try and fit to my Jamaican, but it turned otu that even that was too high (they lowered the scuttle several inches) and won't clear the bonnet - damn!
Bill Spohn

Bill

Did you try using an original cap rather than the plastic replacement one? The metal one takes up much less space, and has a smaller diameter so does not protrude into the bonnet area as much.

Just a thought!
dominic clancy

If that car is a turd, I'd hate to see how my cars would be described and if a frame-off is "the only way" to restore a car, then I've built many the wrong way.
Kemper

So RJ Brown vents off his crap not only in Flame Wars but now here. Keep your thoughts to yourself it will do the world some good.
.

Same to you, you know who you are.
.

This appears to be the same RJ Brown who starts off his post in the thread "Is it possible?" with the statement:

"If calling anyone that doesn't use new Lockheed parts stupid isn't rude then I don't know what is. In re-reading both of your prior post I find they are rude and condescending."

Talk about the pot calling the kettle... Here is a guy who complains about someone not grinding off the slag on a frame pontificating about the superiority of using rebuild brake parts over replacing with new. Personally, if given a choice give me car which has been rebuilt by someone (anyone) else with different priorities.

Steve
Steve Brandt

Let's let this one go and get back to helping each other. IMHO.

Bill
Bill Haglan

Heah Bill, I second that one!
In regards to the flame wars. I have seen RJ's car and it is well done. I think the Ebay car was also extremely well done but I do share what I think to be one of RJ's points. In doing a restoration of the level that Pete did, I would find it almost easier to take the tub off. The incremental additional work and expense would pay for itself on resale. Not that an MG as nice as that would be anything less than great to own. I view it as spending the big bucks to replace your carpet with $100 a yard product and not replacing the padding!

Bottom line is that my hat is off to you Pete for the level of workmanship for the job you were paid to do. My thanks also to RJ for all the help that he has given us on the board and for his enthusiam to the MGA. Even though he has a great car, it is not a trailer queen in any way shape or form. He is not afraid to drive it which is what we all should strive for.

Now, if only I could be so diplomatic with my wife!
Ken

Well, there's one good thing that's come out of all this. It's led me to Pete's web site. I've downloaded all the pictures detailing the replacement of the sills and rockers. I think it'll be very useful if and when I get a MIG welder and teach myself how to weld, as I've got 4 'As lined up as retirement projects that, of course, all need this done.Then there's the front and rear clips I've got sitting out there that might one day be reunited.

Pete, I think the cars look great and I only wish your customers had deep enough pockets to take it to the next step of a full frame off restoration. It seems a real shame that all the work is done but that all the body hasn't been taken down to bare metal and completely rustproofed and refinished.

I'd like to ask a couple of question.

1. What is the "rust encapsulating paint" you use? Who makes it and what's the product name?

2. Who's repair panels do you use? Do you find they fit first time? Or do you have to tweek them much? There's no mention of this in your captions.

Thanks.

TTFN
Derek Nicholson

Derek,
Thanks. I used Rust Encapsulator, which is a similar product to POR-15. It's available from Eastwoods, in PA.
I used Moss motors dogleg panels, and yes they needed a bit of tweaking. I did however get my rocker panels from Carl Heideman, at Eclectic Motor Works in Holland, MI. He takes the standard repro rocker panels available from the usual sources, and actually cuts a very small pie shape slice out of them (lengthwise) and them tig welds them back together. They do incredible welding, and the work is virtually invisible.

As for the customer not having deep enough pockets to go the full 9 yards, as a shop owner I have to do what the customer wants within his budget.
I am currently working on a TR3 restoration that is in the midst of a body off job. See photos atwww.motorcar-garage.com (shameless plug!!)
We just finished the chassis/suspension etc. We have a beautiful rolling chassis, and have moved on to the body. It's very satisfying to take it to the "next level" This particular customer is the original owner. It actually belonged to his now deceased wife, and he is having it restored to give to his daughter. This makes the job even more satisfying and fun.
Thanks again,
Pete
Pete

For most owners selling a car on Ebay, the exercise is a learning process. If the car is not worth the price, he will be selling it for a long time, Ebay or otherwise. Not everyone is as knowledgable about values and how they are determined, as are those who have taken some time to scope out the market, talk to others who have gone through the process, and have developed a realistic appreciation for both the marketplace and the car they are attempting to sell. You may see the same car up for bid at a different time when the owner figures out what is a realistic approach which will net him either the most he can reasonably expect or a price level that moves the car out of his garage.
Bob Muenchausen

I started my resto on my 60 coupe about 10 yrs ago and some one got me to thinking I could not restore it to standards . This has/had caused me to back burner it . I now know this know it all enthusiast guy was talking out his bung hole . These cars are 40 something years old and if you want to see another in the crusher or worse , comments like these should be lightly used . Im sure the effort used in making such comments could be put to better use , constant nit picking surely leads to inpotentcy Im hoping so in my know it all detractor , and kill joy . I am now in the nature coast british car club in Florida where they have banished all who have a stick up there tailpipe .
Karl

Peter, what was the source of the BRG paint? Looks really good, I'm trying to settle on a BRG paint code for my coupe restoration.

Thanks, George
G Goeppner

Let's all remember that RJ is the guy who put a mazda rotary in an MGA, even the mazda logo on the grille.

C'mon RJ, lighten up. It's up to $12k with 4 days left and the seller has provided photo documentation. How can this be faulted? No false claims, the service was done to owners specs.

Wear a helmet, cuz when you fall off that horse, it's going to be a very long way down!


So how does it taste?

Getting back to RJ's original questions: I believe there are lots of folks out there that do the less-than-concours restoration. It just depends on your goals for the car. I wanted to drive my car a lot and not have to worry about road damage or the effect of road miles (what's the effect of 30,000 miles on a concours restoration?). That's why I did the running restoration. I've bumped into more than one MGA owner that did the perfect body-off job, then was too worried to take the car out in less than optimum road conditions. So, if I get a chunk of asphalt bounced onto my cowl (it happened), or run off the highway at high speed by an 18-wheeler (it happened), or get sandblasted in a dust devil, I don't worry too much about the damage. And, the car still looks great (got over 40 trophies, including a NAMGAR GT best of class), and it's still a head-turner. It's a great car to enjoy, and I enjoy the hell out of taking long road trips in it. See you at Sedona and Whistler!
Tyler

George

Slightly off topic, but perhaps in answer to your BRG question, a favourite over here is a 1950s BRG - Jaguar Hen Green.

I first saw it on one of my many trips over to Bob West and immediately selected it for my car. I believe the car he was rebuilding for a client went on to win the main MG concours event at Silverstone that year - 1997 or 1998.

Steve
Steve Gyles

From:-

http://www.jag-lovers.org/saloons/paint.html

perhaps it's British Racing Green. Jaguars version is darker than most peoples idea of BRG.

HEN is the three letter paint code for 1987 Jaguars, described as "Jaguar Racing Green Clear over Base Grand Prix Green". No, I don't memorize this stuff, just use Google!

http://www.jag-lovers.org/xjlovers/xjfaq/paint&intrcodes.htm

http://autocolorlibrary.com/cgi-bin/search/searchpic.pl?1987-jaguar-pg01.jpg

Not sure if this is what you're looking for.

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

Thanks Derek, spot on. I was only 30 years out in my dating! My paint can says Hen Green 701 as shown in the final link.

This is what it looks like on my car: http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen.gyles/Prac%20classics.jpg

It looks darker in photos than for real. I like it, but everyone to their own or we would all be driving round still in black Fords!

Steve
Steve Gyles

That link for some reason does not work. Try this: http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen.gyles/odds_and_sods.htm

Steve
Steve Gyles

Steve, Derek, thanks for your input. I'm trying to narrow down several "BRG" choices to two. I'll have a body panel painted with each, then decide.

Cheers, George.

G Goeppner

If it's your car and you are happy with it and the tires are good and the brakes work well, screw what somebody else thinks, drive it and enjoy it.
John H

George G.
That is a Jaguar BRG from the early 70's. I do not know the exact code off hand. I would have to research my files if you can't find it with that information alone.
The black wire wheels we used on the car belonged to a good friend of mine who had them on his Healey 3000.
His wife hated them and nagged him to death until he relented and got a set of Minilite type knock offs to replace them.
We put the black wires on the MGA to roll it around as we were finishing up the car, and they looked pretty "vintage" looking. The customer liked them and there they stayed. It's different for sure.


Pete
Pete

Some good comments here,I now have a plethora (a great word), of ideas for that rough as a cobb twin cam sitting in my barn.A 350 chevy,ALFA TC,BMC c-series,Mazda 2200 deisel,... Merc-crusier? Dura bond 90 and Sherwin-Williams A-100. A show stealer at Twists next party. Of course there will be some one who wont like it...did I mention gun rack.
wc wolcott

WC,
Go one better, make it all electric! Here is a drivetrain to steal! http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
Bob Muenchausen

Michael Hosier
Just a comment - I too bought a beautiful, rust free MGA, body off restored in 1997 and stored under cover since. Recently, I decided to give it a quick paint job, but a very good friend got in the way and "encouraged" me to remove the body and "do the job properly"! Guess what? Found sufficient surface rust on the chassis (and elsewhere) to scare me!!! Its been easy to fix - no welding needed - but may have been a different story in a few years time! Just a thought.
Dave
PS RJ has copped a hiding - lets move on.
"A"'s are Awsome
David Godwin

Let's leave RJ alone. I had a very gracious apology from him off-line for his brake-thread remarks, and I am happy to forget it ever happened. Everyone has a bad day occasionally. Think happy thoughts and smile!
dominic clancy

Maybe RJ needs to think about what he's writing before he hits the send button. Maybe that way he won't have to apologize later. I get tired of hearing from these curmudgeons that have nothing constructive to add but would rather nit-pick and complain about someone else's work. To call that car a polished turd is nothing short of a senile rant.
My $0.02
Pete W.

A couple of old sayings come to mind:-

"Think twice, speak once!"

And an old Polish one:-

"All visits bring pleasure, if not the comming, then the going."

TTFN



Derek Nicholson

Pete, I don't know if there's something wrong with your website http://www.motorcar-garage.com , but since yesterday I'm getting almost blank pages. I wanted to go back and complete looking at some of the other restoration jobs in your Gallery.

Could someone else check the link and let me know what results you get, just in case it's my computer that's the problem. I'm not having this problem with any other site. But then again, stranger things have happened!

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

Oddly, the site worked using the Foxfire browser the first time I looked at the site, then stopped. However, once I finally decided to try using Explorer, all's well. Strange!

Thanks, Pete Wilson.

Derek Nicholson

Seems RJ has sparked more than than a few comments, and I guess thats is part of the forum.

The bottom line is we all have the same passion for a car that was a big part of the sports car revolution in the late 50s and early 60s. Of all the marques out there, I still use the A as the bar for my choice of driver. I own 2 MGAs, One race car and one I drive nearly daily. It will never win a show, but because I live in Cal-i-for-nee-a, I can drive it daily. I call it a 50-50 car. She looks great at 50 mph and 50 feet.

Keep an eye out - i'm the guy in the Old English White roaster with competition windscreen with a smile a mile long.

Enjoyed reading your posts. Keep em going guys.

skip

This thread was discussed between 22/07/2006 and 26/07/2006

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