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MG MGA - Is it possible

Is it possible ,that on a rebuilt/re-sleeved master cylinder, to have caused it to leak by having adjusted the brake pedal push rod? The MC is installed and when I took it for a toot around the block,I noticed the brakes tightened up. I adjusted the length of the brake MC rod and now I have brake fluid leaking out of the dust cover (on the front of the MC).
Have I advanced or retarded the interior seal too much?Is it possible that this type of adjustment would cause a leak?
thanks Gordon
Gordon Harrison

Adjusting the pushrod should have no effect on the integrity of the cylinder seals unless you have allowed the piston to come out of the bore (which would mean NO brakes) - I suspect it's another case of an inadequate quality rebuild.

I have never understood why people try penny-pinching on brake parts when new ones are available. Is your life really not worth $100 bucks extra for a brand new part? Would you fit dodgy recon parts on your main car? Would you be happy buying a car with dodgy recon brake cylinders? Would you rather not do the job right once and for all rather than fiddle around trying to make it right, then have to give up and get the new cylinder you shpuld have bought in the first place?

Send it back and buy a new cylinder, then drain the system and refill with Si fluid, and it will be 15 years before you have to touch it again.

dominic clancy

Gordon - Is it possible that in adjusting your M/C push rod, you have it a bit too long so that it is not allowing the seal to com back far enough to uncover the relief hole in the M/C? The relief hole has to be uncovered when the brake pedal is released or pressure will build up in the brake system and not bleed of whenever the brakes are released. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

dominic,
I get the feeling that your faith in re-sleeved MC's is slightly below ZERO. While everyone would like to rebuild their Mg's with new parts, it is sometimes not possible. Brakes are important and cost should not be a factor, but at the same time there are many competant companies resleeving MC's. They are using the same seals and parts available for the new repro units. It is not unheard of to find poorly made repro parts and there is no definate way of knowing....for sure...what you are getting.....new or re-sleeved.

I do not think my problem is one of the re-sleeve but a situation where possibly my tinkering or faulty interior rebuild kits are the problem. Is it possible that I have made the push rod so long that the seals are coming to far forward and creating a leak?
Thanks gord.

Dave, your answer is the exact reason I tried to adjust the pushrod. I thought it was to long and the seal was not being allowed to pass the relief hole. This is when I must have disturbed something ,because now I have .....get this ...THE LEAK.
Gordon Harrison

Gordon, I would not expect the rod to cause a leak. The rod length should not be adjusted to adjust the brakes. The purpose of the rod adjustment is to set the amount of play in the pedal. You should adjust the rod so that you have around 1/2" of pedal travel before the rod contacts the piston in the master cylinder.
John H

In regard to resleeving master cylinders: The master cylinder bores are originally cast iron, and are absolutely guaranteed to rust and pit, and wear, unless silicone brake fluid is used, or the hydraulic system is religiously flushed every few years. Since such preventative flushings are generally overlooked by most owners, it perhaps then makes good sense to re sleeve master cylinders with stainless steel. If a good grade of SS is used, it should last virtually forever. If the re sleeving job is done properly, there should be no problems, and no leakage. Cheers, Glenn
Glenn

Glenn
I was told that if the company that re-sleeved the MC did not seal the sleeve (during insertion) with Loc-tite) that there was a possability that the brake fluid(silicone) could leak out...starting at the inside end of the cylinder...and travel down the exterior wall of the sleeve (between the sleeve and the cast iron MC walls) and leak out at the front cover plate and gasket. Do you think this is true?
Gordon Harrison

Gordon

My feelings are that skimping on brakes is simply stupid. New branded Lockheed MCs and wheel cylinders are available for the MGA, so I don't understand why anyone should use anything else, and then either use Si fluid or standard fluid with regular flushing (as per service interval).

There are too many stories of problems with resleeved cylinders. While they may represent only a small percentage of the total of resleeves, I expect a 100% pass rate on brake components, period.

I can understan using resleeves on a rare part which is no longer available, but as few cars have a unique cylinder, these must be the minority. If a cylinder bore is shot, an new is available, as far as brakes go, there's no other sensible option as far as I am concerned.
dominic clancy

Brand new original equipment (Adler) master cyl for a current Honda can be had for about $100.00. The quality and sophistication of the part is so much better than anything Lockheed ever built. For that kind of money no one rebuilds.
A new Lockheed brand cyl for our cars costs what $400.00-$500.00. Can you say rip-off? Considering the lack of sophistication of the parts and the poor reliability of the new Lockheed parts it is easy to see why buying new is not a better, or more reliable, choice than resleeving.
Get off your high horse. Do you really think Lockheed parts are 100%. Your answer smacks of elitism and arrogance. It doesn't help diagnose the problem it is just an arrogant put down. Most of us would like to understand the whys and hows of the cars. Fixing it is part of the ownership facination.
A properly resleeved part is better quality and retains "originality" better than buying new.
Gordon It sounds like you shortened the length of the adjustment. Doing this would not create a leak. The piston should be all the way forward and against the cover/stop with about 1/8th inch freeplay at that point. I suspect the seal is not doing its job. It could have been defective or assembled improperly. Originally there was a taper at the front of the bore to make it easier to install the seals. If this taper was not remachined into the sleeve the chance of nicking the lip of a seal would be higher.
R J Brown

RJ

If you think my answer to Gordon's question reeks of elitism and arrogance, then I suggest you do me the courtesy of re-reading it *properly*. It has never been my habit to be as gratuitously rude, arrogant or offensive as you are in this post.

I also suggest you read the rest of the threads that have often covered problems with re-sleeved cylinders, then recconsider my comments in light of these.

If yopu still believe that Lockheed produces sub-standard new parts, then say so and wait for teh lawyers letters from them! The liability costs for a failure would simply be too high for them. Have you ever heard comments about faulty "NEW" cylinders? No? Why is that not a surprise.

I repeat my comment again - skimping money on brakes is irrational - any life is surely worth the few hundred dollars to do at least that right. Ultimately you alone must be the judge of that for yourself, but what about your passengers and other road users? Can you justify to yourself that you have the right to value a few hundred bucks saving against their value?
dominic clancy

Dominic:

I agree with you. It's too bad that Lockheed M/C are expensive, but I have seen enough discussions about failed re-sleeved M/C's (particularly the brass re-sleeved ones)that I would never take the chance with my life using them. Everone should make a personal choice and I'm not shouting at anyone to go this route, but I do feel strongly about "Safety Fast," with the emphasis on safety.

Steve
Steve Brandt

Disagreements aside,

I have invested in the re-sleeved MC and will proceed with a strict and critical examination of the unit. Mr. Brown, you may possibly be right about the seals and when I open the unit I will be in a better position to comments. I thank you for your opinion

Dominic & Steve
I am fully aware of the merits of a new MC unit. My objective here is not to get anyone killed but to re-build my car into a safe daily driver. There is a limit to how much money I will spend to do this. If in the end a new MC is what it will take ,then a new MC it will be. I thank you for your concern.

A side bar;
Tires and brakes are the most important parts of a resto. Yes,I tried stainless steel resleeving (to save some money) but I also SAVED A BUNDLE OF MONEY when I bought my 5 brand new Kuhmo 758 powers Star tires.I live in Montreal where tires of a much lesser quality sell for app. $80.00 @ x 5 = $400.00. The Kuhmo in the USA cost me $28.00 @ x 5 = $140.00 + ship/exchange duties for a total of $250.00 Can. Therefore it is possible to save money and to be ABSOLUTELY SAFE.

Do places like Apple Hydraulics and White Post Restoration not have liability insurance (just as Lockheed does) for there products/services. Surely the insurance companies have evaluated their work and deamed it SAFE.

Safety is #1 but you can save money and BE SAFE.
Thank you Gordon
Gordon Harrison

If calling anyone that doesn't use new Lockheed parts stupid isn't rude then I don't know what is. In re-reading both of your prior post I find they are rude and condescending. Words like penny-pinching, dodgy, skimping and sensible option convey an arrogance that bring to mind another marque. On rereading my post I do sound a bit harsh, but on par, for that and what follows I apologise to those reading.
As our cars climb up the collector car food chain and become more costly the attitudes displayed in your post unfortunately become more prevalent. Though I am pleased at the appreciation of my 4 cars I feel those of modest means are being priced out of the hobby. It is a two edged sword. The price increase of the cars will cause more cars to be saved. But I fear though there will be more cars they will be driven and enjoyed as they should less and less as the prices increase.
Cast iron is a poor choice of materials for a master cyl. When used with a normal, water absorbing, brake fluid as Lockheed recommends you can almost guarantee rust and pitting of the bores.
The best answer to an original looking master cylinder is to properly sleeve it with a better material. Stainless steel seems to be the best answer at this point.
The simply cast and roughly machined parts that came in our cars represent an old dead technology. The cost to make a new part does not justify the prices Lockheed quotes.
I just looked up prices on brand new master cylinders for a 97 Honda Accord. Adler (OEM) $93.51, NPR $75.00, PBR $54.62. With 3 brands available the prices are all competitive. For our MGAs Lockheed has paid for tooling and no competition and we fools are happy to get what we need at any price.
The problems that are usually seen on any type master cylinder in the MGA are related to rubber material and poor assembly. Assembling your own master cyl from a properly re sleeved body and new components makes a better than new unit.
To simply throw more money than the product is worth at the OEM supplier is what I consider stupid. And to put down those that do is arrogant.
R J Brown

Not to belabor this discussion, but R J Brown brings up an interesting (to my mind) question. What are the master cylinders of other cars made from? Aside from British sports cars, I've owned and/or worked on SAABs, Corvettes, Porsches, and a variety of other autos and all have had cast iron master cylinders, to the best of my recollection. Unsleeved aluminum would be a poor choice since exposure to water in brake fluid would cause it to pit faster than cast iron.

Does anyone have any experience with the truly exotics ($150K and above) that would suggest that when money is no object, other materials and/or fabrication/assembly methods are used? Personally, I have never examined a sleeved master cylinder or, for that matter, slave cylinder or caliper on a factory production automobile.

Just curious...
Steve
Steve Brandt

All master cylinders are mad of cast iron as far as I know. It is possible, although I am not aware of any circumstances where it is done, but some castings may be better than others. Again, I am not aware of it. The reservoirs, where the brake fluid would be in contact with air, are typically a plastic, which has no corrosion problems. A modern master cylinder will frequently outlast the car it came from, so there really is no reason to make it from anything else. If you check, you will also find that the wheel cylinders and front brake calipers are made of cast iron. If the manufacturers start making them out of better materials - stainless, for example, they will lose what aftermarket profits they make.
mike parker

Mike, since oil float on water when moisture gets into the system it ends up in the bottom of the master cylinder as well as the wheel cylinders/calipers, the result is rust. The ony way to stop the rusting is to use silicone fluid, different materials, or change your brake fluid yearly. Most new car master cylinders are made of aluminum not cast iron, most likely due to cost and weight. Water in an aluminum master cylinder will also corrode the aluminum resulting in the same problems. Nowadays buying the original parts isn't always a sure sign of quality because god knows where they were actually made. There should be absolutly no problem using a sleeved cylinder if it was machined and sealed correctly.
John H

John,
Do you know the correct way that a re-sleeve should be sealed. I heard it should be coated in loctite and pressed into the cylinder bore. Gord.
Gordon Harrison

I don't know about domestics but all Japanese cars use alloy cylinders for brake and clutch and have for many years. If safety were the only issue making a bracket similar to the twin cams to house a modern dual master would be the best route to go.
R J Brown

Well see that! I don't buy Japanese, and all I own are American cars. I did think that the new ones might have aluminum MCs but with ~100 degrees outside, I didn't want to go out to check mine. Just lazy, I guess.
mike parker

if valid, somehow it is the worst BBS thred I have read in long time. Can that be removed from history and start over? Gordon just ask the same question and go from there and avoid all the bull s...
Clancy, there is no new master brake cyl available for twin cam-only sleaved.
Martin
Martin

Gordon, You may want to do some research but i would lean towards something such as Loctite shaft and bearing mount. When thay are done machining the bore should look just like an original.
John H

Well hear is the answer,

Opened the MC last night and low and behold the SS sleeve used in the brake side of the MC IS NOT TAPERED. This is the side that is leaking. The clutch side sleeve IS TAPERED and I am having no problem with it. So Mr. Brown must be right and.... when I inserted the seals into the brake side the non-tapered edge must have affected the seal . I will have the sleeve edge tapered and replace the seal. This should stop the leak.

Conclusion:

Uncompleted work by the person who re-sleeved the MC and lack of attention by the rebuilder(me) when assembling the master cylinder. Thanks Gordon
Gordon Harrison

So it looks like quality control at this re-sleever is a really high priority. Great feeling that must be when you need the brakes in a hurry.....

There will always be those who have different opinions, but at this point I would have shipped the thing back and demanded a full refund on the basis that the goods are faulty. Then I would have swallowed hard and bought the new cylinder at the premium price for the sure knowledge that it is going to be RIGHT.

Brakes should be (and are for me at least) a zero-compromise issue.
dominic clancy

I put 2 Wilwood master cyls with a balance bar on my mga with an identical ms for the clutch.

Fred H

Gord, if and or when you decide you need a brand new M/C, let me know. I can help out.

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

This thread was discussed between 14/07/2006 and 18/07/2006

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