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MG MGA - Matching numbers ???

Often I see a car advertised (not necessarily MG) with ‘matching numbers’ and wonder exactly what this means. Does it have any relevance to MGAs?
John McMaster

It is relevent to MGA's. It means the cae has the chassis number and engine number that it had when it left the factory, i.e., there has been no engine swap made during its history.
That's my understanding of the term "matching numbers".
Peter.
P. Tilbury

Early MGs (and including some MGAs) had their chassis AND engine numbers marked on the ID plate - so it is clear when you have a car with its original engine in place. The MGA mostly ( after 1956?) does not have this - only the chassis number being indicated. So you can't truly have a matching numbers MGA, but you could have an engine number that closely matches the correct year of the car even if it is not the original engine.
Cam Cunningham

John, I have a Mk11 roadster which has "matching numbers", it is original in every respect. As Peter says above it has never had an engine or gearbox swap, has original running gear and, more importantly, has never been modified. It is the same as the day it left the factory over 50 years ago.
I will offer it for sale soon and intend to highlight the "matching numbers" aspect as potential buyers, those looking for a concours car, will value it higher.
Barry
Barry Gannon

As stated above matching numbers would suggest originality.

Unfortunately those who crave such things (concours) have made a rod for their own back by encouraging the production of new plates. This allows anyone to print any number they like anywhere which as I am sure you can appreciate defeats the whole system. Which is a bit of a shame I believe.
Bob Turbo Midget England

In the UK the logbook (V5) lists both the engine and chassis number. So, provided original logbooks are retained, originality of 'matching numbers' can be checked. Unfortunately, as Cam has mentioned, the MGA engine number was not recorded and the plaque on the bulkhead just stated 'See Engine'. The MGA V5 logbooks do not clarify things either. Mine simply states 'Not Recorded'. More recently, the UK licencing authority (DVLA) lost interest in recording some historic car data (pre 1972 vehicles). They no longer want to know about engine changes, including engine size change. It's becoming a free for all and anything goes, so better to keep all your old documents to keep track of your car's pedigree.

Steve
Steve Gyles

John,
To be correct in this topic, the "early" 1500's had both the chassis and the engine number on the plate on the heater shelf. Clausager states that: on all later models it simply says "see engine". This suggests that from 1600 models onwards, the engine number was left off the plate.
Replacement ID plates allow owners to stamp on any chassis and engine numbers they want, so matching numbers can be arranged, as suggested above. They are also held by 4 screws, not rivets, so making it easy to remove.
Hope this helps in your understanding of "matching numbers" for an MGA.
Peter.
P. Tilbury


Gentlemen,

Thanks for the through explanation. I have a 1960 1600 which I bought about 12 years ago from the second owner who had it since 1964. She had used it as a daily driver until she could no longer get in and out of it, in her words, “in a dignified manner”.I am confident that it is basically original given its history and was curious to see if it could be authenticated.

So I get the impression from Barry’s remarks that it is as much a ‘to the best of my knowledge’ feeling about the car (in the case of an A) as an exact match of numbers. This feeling is hard to define but I’m sure those who have been around old things for a while get a sixth sense about it. Certainly seems a bit pointless making false plates though, Caveat Emptor being the bottom line.


Thanks again, John.
John McMaster

"Unfortunately those who crave such things (concours) have made a rod for their own back by encouraging the production of new plates. This allows anyone to print any number they like anywhere which as I am sure you can appreciate defeats the whole system."

As Bob stated, "numbers matching" has been made irrelevant for MGAs due to the ease of replacement serial number tags. Other makes that had serial numbers cast into the engine/transmission/frame are far more valuable when all the numbers match. But when the plate itself can be replicated or even moved to another part, the ability to authenticate original parts pretty much goes out the window.

While it's nice to have the engine number match the VIN plate (on cars that had the number stamped), there's no way to ascertain that the engine bearing the serial number is actually the one that came with the car from the factory.
Larry Wheeler


No thread / topic about matching numbers should be complete without mentioning the body number. (oval plate by the fuse box - often heavily painted over)

Alas the factory records for body numbers were lost, hence Gaydon / BMIHT don't list these on certificates. You will often see the registers ask for this number to help rebuild this picture, so I would encourage those of you who read this to register your body number.

From the data others have provide it's reasonably easy to identify an MGA which has lost it's original body but I doubt a concourse judge would go to this level of detail.

Which would you rather and original engine bored out to +60 or an original body !!!

Mark
Mark Hester

.......and then there is the chassis number: http://tinyurl.com/d67dcpz

Steve
Steve Gyles

Regarding "numbers matching" on an MGA, this is not really possible. Numbers matching means that the engine, transmission and rear axle are original to that particular vehicle. With the possible, occasional, exception of the engine the MG factory didn't record this information, so there's no actual way to know.
Cheers,
GTF
G T Foster

They stopped stamping the engine numbers on the chassi plate somewhere around the end of 1956/beginning of 1957, and all the later cars have the 'see engine'. My Jamaican chassis has the engine number on it - late 1956.

BTW, having matching numbers does not mean having matching original components. Unless you hot tank and engine, you can remove the original engine plate (they use an odd spiral rivet) and the rivets are obtainable, so you can pop the plate onto whatever you like to create a 'matching number' car, even without needing to buy a new repro number plate.
Bill Spohn

My '58 has the engine number stamped on the Car No. plate, August 1957 production date.
Barney Gaylord

Bill, I'm interested in your comment --
"you can remove the original engine plate (they use an odd spiral rivet) and the rivets are obtainable, so you can pop the plate onto whatever you like to create a 'matching number' car, even without needing to buy a new repro number plate".

In Australia the authorities did not allow a removable plate like you describe! To best of my knowledge all engines were stamped, in the same place, but directly into the block. Absolutely tamper-proof.
So we can honestly say "matching numbers"!
Barry.
Barry Gannon

Not heard of that before Barry
However there are unscrupulous people around and the simple solution to that would be to "deck" the block and this would machine off any number on the engine itself I think?(Assuming it is stamped where the rest of us rivit the plate) then Re stamp the new number?

The problem being though if the value is enhanced someone will do it. Sadly?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Bob

I did have an issue last year with my 1800. It did not have an engine number plate when I bought it as scrap at a closing down auction. I had to purchase another scrap engine with an identification plate and supply invoices to the DVLA. Just as I completed the process the DVLA wrote to me to say that it is no longer necessary to tell them of engine change numbers on Historic cars (pre 1972) and they won't record them any more.

Steve
Steve Gyles

This thread was discussed between 21/06/2012 and 07/07/2012

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