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MG MGA - MGA body Panel Fit and alignment issues

I originally responded to two threads in the archive area from April this year regarding panel fit and body restoration headaches with MGA's. Unfortunately both the posts I wrote did not go through and disappeared into internet limbo.

So with your indulgence I will start this new thread dedicated to the problems associated with this car.


MGA body panel fit and restoration.

Due to the way the car is constructed and assembled, the MGA has to be one the most difficult post war BMC sports cars to restore and get panels to fit and line up. Big Healey's run a close second.

What one has to realize is that the MGA is a "mass produced, hand built car". Meaning that even though all the components of the car are stamped out they are assembled and finished by hand. This is why no two items are exactly the same for dimensions, fit or contour when offered to a car.

The factory that assembled the bodies used selective fit when putting the wings, doors and bonnet and boot lids on the car body shell. In other words if the part was not a good fit they picked one from the many that did fit. We don't have that luxury.

Seldom do we have the privilege of using Factory Original body parts unless we were lucky to make a "find' so we have to rely on after market "pattern" parts, restore what we have, or find and use second hand components from other cars.

Since no two parts are the same for fit this is where we encounter difficulties in having the components fit and line up to our satisfaction. I have nine doors that I acquired for my MGA's restoration and each one fits the car differently. This is due in the most part to the fact that the door skins were crimped or clenched onto the door casing by hand, so variances in the doors dimensions and alignment (twist) occur. Knowing this will help in assessing what one needs to do in order to get the fit we want.

The next problem we encounter is the one of after market or pattern parts variable quality. In my experience almost none of these fit properly without a lot of massaging and alteration, making it it easier (and cheaper) in some cases to just restore the original components. Sometimes they are not even close for shape or fit.

When I started my cars restoration I sought out original cars that had the components I needed to check for dimensions and made copious drawings and took thousands of measurements. I started noticing variations in dimensions and measurements (sometimes major) for components and their location that rather puzzled me at the time but I figured out with time.

When ever possible I measured up and drew working drawings of original components especially if New Old Stock so I would have an accurate guide for making these components if I could not obtain them. What this showed me was the the body panel parts that are sold for restoring our MGA's body shells are in some cases not even close to matching the original. Critical dimensions needed to determine gaps etc. were now affected and altered or unobtainable because of these differences. I kept encountering this with almost everything I purchased and ended up either manufacturing my own component or restoring the original.

I have a theory which I can't prove but have suspicions about that the pattern parts are deliberately different from the originals (not being exact duplicates) so that these companies can not be held liable for copyright infringement. They get around this by saying that the part is "suitable" for a particular car. Take the bumper bars for example. Heavy gauge steel approximately 3/16" thick bent to a specific set of bends to allow the chrome bumpers to mount to the car after being bolted to the bars. The ones obtained by a friend from Moss motors did fit if you re-bent them to match originals (if available). Then you will also notice that they are much, much thinner. Almost a 1/16" thinner! This alters how the bumpers actually fit to the car with proper clearances etc.

This is just one example of this conundrum that factors into the mix when we start trying to get our cars body to look and fit in the manner we want it to.

So what can we do and how can we do what is required to allow us to get our cars body to be as close to the original form it was when made?

Well as I said at the beginning with your indulgence I will attempt to offer ways to make the process less painful through the auspices of this forum. If I can help someone resolve issues they are having with their restoration then I will be pleased to have been able to do so.

SteveB2
S L Bryant

Steve, I don't think that copyright has anything to do with it, as any copyright would have expired 30 years ago. The people making replacement panels/parts are just trying to do it as "cheap" as possible, and that includes reducing the size/thickness of the metal.Also, if you obtain an after market replacement front wing(which 99.9% are now), you will probably find that it has been made off a former from an original, which could be one of the many different sizes that you mentioned..hence you will still get all the variations.
Gary Lock

I have restored an MGA and a TF; I'm currently working on B-GT. For my money the GT is much more difficult that either of the earlier cars. The body fit on some of the restored cars that we see at NAMGAR Nationals is much better than when these cars left the factory. MGAs were not built to be museum pieces.
David Werblow

Gary, the current owners of the brand names MG, Rover, Jaguar etc., etc are very protective of anything pertaining to them and go after those that even mention the names in their business, services or parts they make.

I have seen this happen here in western Canada several times so I suspect it might be a case of playing it safe.

But I agree, there is absolutely no reason that the replacement parts can't be made to be exact or near exact copies of the originals.

It takes just as much time, effort and money to make tooling to put the bends in the wrong place as it would to put them in the right place.

Personally I'd rather pay more for better parts.

Steve
S L Bryant

David,
I agree with you on the statement about MGA's not built to be museum pieces.

I restored a MGBGT body shell for someone in the past and yes, the fit of some of the components wasn't easy but since they were OEM pieces they did all fit eventually without resorting to major surgery.

Steve
S L Bryant

Well dare I say it; it's just those very challenges and the satisfaction of overcoming the difficulties that makes our hobby so rewarding!

At least I can say that is my own perspective. However, I am by trade an engineer and by nature a problem solver and eternal optimist.

That said I am extremely annoyed by so many cheap and substandard parts in the market place. There does seem to me to be a swing towards higher quality parts as the restoration scene matures. This is certainly helped by forums such as this sharing and publicising information.
N McGurk

Steve,
I think that an "Archive of Accuracy" would be a wonderful resource if available.There are many stories about bad fitting parts often without mentioning who's part was bad and why.obviously NOS parts are ( I HOPE )
the bench mark.

Not only would a reference database point out where the problem lay it would also help the reproducer correct the issue.

Even on Barney's site there seems to be very little information compared to the sense of the problem from the boards.

I have an complete NOS inner wing RHS if any one can accurately measure it for posterity they are welcome to. Preferably prior to it replacing the damaged one on my 1958.


Tony
A M Leyva

Tony, your NOS wing won't really help, as what Steve said in his first post, all factory panels varied in size it seems. A measurement of yours may help, say 50% of cars, but what about the other 50%? That's why, I don't think we can ever get a benchmark, sadly.
Gary Lock

I read in the past,in a major publication that A's could vary in length of up to 1/2"!
gary starr

As an example, my MGA has 1/4 inch difference in doorpost spacing left side to right side, as it left the factory. You cannot compensate for that much difference with shims. If you have to change doors you may end up customizing the hinges. I am convinced that the body plant definitely selected variable size doors to best fit the openings before attaching hardware.

Tony's mention of an "Archive of Accuracy" is a noble cause. In April 2010 I opened a new section on my web site for "Panels That Fit, or Don't Fit". See here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/restore/restore4.htm
I have been adding information as fast as it comes in, so if you have experience with replacement panels that are not yet on my list, please send pictures and comments.

In early 2008 I replaced all metal in the body sills on my MGA, everything below the doors and slightly higher. Every new piece I installed fit perfectly. Why? Because I made all of the parts from flat stock and formed them to match the original shapes. These are not very difficult, as they are all flat stock with (mostly) simple bends and flanges. It took some time, maybe 30 hours to make the parts, but I ultimately made $1000 worth of inner body panels out of one 3x8 foot sheet of 18-gauge flat stock. I found this to be well worth the effort, especially when I hear about all the time people spend massaging the commercially available panels to make them work. Photos, notes, and some drawings on how to make the inner sill and pillar panels do it are on my web site.

I don't have tools or talents to make much of the contoured panels. Making a small dog leg repair section was challenge enough. I did find suitable replacement rocker panels (after some research). Otherwise my outer fenders were in pretty good shape, having been painted inside and out a couple time previously (since the car was only 20 years old).

I have been finding that MANY replacement panels are made from thinner sheet stock than original. That bugs me to no end, because raw steel is very cheap compared to everything else that goes into retail price of a finished part. Thinner panels make a more flexible car body, like when you shut the door the B-post wiggles, and maybe the door latches are more likely to pop loose with bumps in the road.

There have been a few cases of sheet metal being thicker the original issue, like Jaguar Jorge for instance. There is no reason for that either, just making the car heavier for no good cause. If you paint the parts properly they won't rust out for a very long time, like maybe the rest of your life. If you don't paint it well and it starts to rust, then 20% thicker metal may take 10 years to rust away rather the 8 years, but it will go away eventually regardless of thickness.
Barney Gaylord

Hi Barney, I love your site and have to say that your observations are right on the money.

I had a long phone conversation years ago with the technical development person at Moss about the door pillar repair sections for MGA's because of the poor fit. I was told that they were supplied to them from an outside source in PA (I won't mention names). So I phoned this person to inquire why all the angles of the flanges and the angle from the vertical inner sill panel to the top of the inner sill / rocker was 90 degrees when the factory angle is 87 degrees (or close to this) and the cross section of this piece was not square.

This person knows that the angles on this component are not 90 degrees or square in section but makes them this way because as in his words "well they fit all of MY replacement components"!.

Needless to say I ended up making new repair sections to the correct angles and they fit with no problems. The replacement parts were thrown out.

This leaves me to wonder what those who don't know about this and do not have the experience to rectify the components do?


One of the things I started doing years ago was to start an "Originality Board".

Every time I had a sample of an original component that is critical for proper fit or appearance I would save it to make this board. When you compare the original item to the item being touted as original by some supplier you can see right away if it is going to work or not. Things like rubber seals, fender beading, fasteners, finisher strip, carpet and trim samples etc., etc.

This certainly helps with identifying who supplies the items that are closest to the originals for fit and finish.

It also identifies variations on items as used in production.

Steve
S L Bryant

Steve,
Do you have any photos of your restoration? It should look nice with all the care you have taken.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Hi Mike, my car isn't finished yet as it seems I'm always working on other peoples.

The chassis is done and the body is getting close....

Steve


S L Bryant

A view from the other end:


S L Bryant

A couple of older pics


S L Bryant

A view from the front.

I'm still massaging rear wings and doors to fit and give good gaps and contours.


S L Bryant

Nice collection of cars in your garage Steve. Wish I had room for an E type let alone a Morris Minor AND an MGA!!
Have you got them on the road yet? Yours enviously - Cam
Cam Cunningham

Steve, any reason why you painted the gearbox engine red or do you just like to be different ie the supercharger.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

Hi Cam,
still working on the MGA while the other cars wait for their turn. I drive a 1971 Land Rover as my daily driver.

What you don't see in the pic are the other cars that occupy my garage and basement (in pieces). These would be a 1929 Austin 7, 1950 Minor MM, 1956 Messerschmitt KR 200, and a 1969 Cooper S MK II.

Couple these to all of the work I do on other peoples cars and you'll understand why my stuff isn't done.



Mike:
I wondered how long it would be before someone noticed this.

I just happened to like the look and figured that the bare aluminum of the gearbox case could use a protective coat of paint, so painted it the same time as the engine.

The supercharger is planned for after the car is broken in and everything works well. Currently the engine has its proper carbs on it.

Steve
S L Bryant

This thread was discussed between 21/09/2011 and 23/09/2011

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