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MG MGA - MGA Engine swap

Just in case I'm not the only one who's never seen this before:-

http://www.mgenthusiast.com/VtecMGA.pdf

Nice toy!

Derek Nicholson

I've seen it and passed it by as irrelevent. Lets put this in proper perspective. Would anyone viewing this BBS spend the time and money to make a copy of that project?
Barney Gaylord

This car has been on display at Silverstone MG International, showing off the suspension set ups, a very well done, professional mod, not for the purist or faint hearted!


Terry
Terry Drinkwater

I wouldn't kick it out of bed (or the garage, either)!

Derek Nicholson

i saw this car in silverstone in 2005 and put also some pictures on my site of it.

http://users.pandora.be/mga_world/
by special mga

serge

To answer Barney's question- I would not spend the money on this project. I'd rather have an xke. But the execution is impressive. I would like to get a better look at the car.
JohnB

Hi Derek, this was featured in the MG Enthusiast magazine earler this year - it is a well executed project - but you have to ask yourself - WHY? You would only do this if you weren't happy with the "old fashioned" engine, suspension etc. By the time you have changed all this you no longer have a car that drives like an MGA - so you might as well have bought a Mazda/Honda/BMW or other new car instead. The whole point of owning our cars is the classic driving experience - not to change it to a modern car. Cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

oh please, no one can state that this is a real comendable piece of engineering.

however as to the old its not a proper MG... casue it hasa differant / modern engine etc.

this is true of course, but MGA's are beautiful cars and cant compoare in looks or jaw dropping apeal to something modern like a mx5 or mgf or etc.

but why should someone also put up with old and inferior handling and ride compared to modern sports cars, and opt for inferior styling in the process i for one like the old engine and inferior brakes, suspension etc, but other s dont of course, the ability to marry the two best atributes of these eras of sports cars is something to be comended.

Not everyone everyone is going to do it and therefore for every modern hybrid born a barn find is lovingly restored to near factory condition.

cars like these were built in their thousands, not exactly rare, as beautiful as they are there just MG's and MGA's

the one question i always ask purists who object to such things is this, do you use it daily, in all weather, and would would you want to to either question.
I have never owned a modern car, i use my classics every day and in all weathers.
and to be honest if i could afford it i would deffintly do somethign similar to this article to one of mine.
but thats just my humble single voiced owners opinion.

thansk for reading, hope it didnt sound ranting lol, if so blame the glenrothes.
Mikey James

I kind of like it also, very tastfully done.Only thing I could think to do differently is to figure a way to fit some of Sports Cars Spares replica Dunlop TC wheels.When Ford did a modern replica of the GT40 everyone thought it was great. MG can't and now never will.
gary starr

That's revolting.
Del Rawlins

Let me run backward through these comments.

Del, - I wouldn't say it's revolting, just different, and even kind of cute like it makes you gron for a moment.

Gary, - If the Chinese would now mass produce a modern retro car styled after the MGA with all the modern inovations and mandated gadgets, that would be okay too, giving a lot of new people (and a few old enthusiasts) a chance to have a new one at reasonable price.

Mikey, - I suppose it could be considered a commendable piece of engineering, fairly well done, not intended to be an old MG or a perfectly modern car, but maybe as much of a stab at modernizing it as can be done without building a new car from scratch. They put up with the quirks of the old car because that's what they wanted. I also drive my classic in all kinds of weather.

Cam, - I understand why people do such things; everyone is entitled to pursue their own dreams and have something unique if they want to. I wouldn't deride anyone for doing such a thing, as there are still plenty of MGAs to go around, and it is a long standing tradition to bast...., er, modify one from time to time just to be different.

John, - There are very few people who would spend the money or the time to build another like it, perhaps not even one other person. It is good for grins, and it lets you think about the worth of some of the mods, so someone might eventually duplicate one or two of the features in another MGA while mixing and matching parts to suit his own fancy.

Serge, - Thanks for the extra pictures. It is fun to look at for us engineering minded types, even if we wouldn't build one ourself.

Derek, - I would kick it out of my garage (sorry if that offends anyone). I simply like the more original vintage flavor better. Matter of fact, I seem to like the one I already have best of all, and mine is not entirely original either (few are). That's the whole point of any modification, each to his own. Yes it's a nice toy, and everyone should have a favorite toy.

Terry, - Spot on, not for the purist, but it takes all kinds to make the world go around, and the world of MGA (and the number of available cars) is big enough to accomodate individual tastes.

As to my original comment, I pass it off as irrelevent because it is just one of thousands of MGA which have been modified in some odd one-off fashion which will likely never be done again. There is very little in that exercise that would hold much relevence to the vast majority of MGA enthusiasts who strive to restore the cars or to maintain them as daily drivers. Yes it's cute, but then so are the electric MGAs, one MGA with a graphite composite body and Toyota engine, one converted to a sand buggy, the "Bizarro" car in art decco style, the world record holding dragster, the MGA garden tractor, the monster truck MGA, and so on ad infinitum. They might all make nice human interest stories, but tomorrow we can forget about it an get on with our own interests.
Barney Gaylord

Barney,

There are at least 2 more MGA's being built with similar mods in the UK.

Rod
R J Myers

I love it!
dominic clancy

Barney, I beg your forgiveness for the V8 conversion that I am doing. My very first car was an MGA and I loved it with all of it's quirks, but it just did not have enough under the hood. Now my second MGA (and last MG) will have enough under the hood and still be an MG. No hot rod parts here--MGB factory engine, transmission, rear axle, but will look, smell, taste, and handle just like my old 57---except when I put my foot on the accelerator. Damn, this is fun!!!!
James Johanski

My daily driver is an 2003 Acura RSX-S. Same basic 2-liter VTEC engine, but detuned to 200 HP in a 2800 lb, upgraded Civic body. Great car, incredible performance, even compared to my 1988 Mustang GT convert, or my 1992 Taurus SHO. I've often wondered how my '62 MGA would feel like with that VTEC engine in it. Then I drive the MGA full out and have a blast - all without really scaring myself, bystanders, or exceeding the speed limit (OK, by just a bit perhaps). No desire to convert my A, but would love to take that one for a short spin. He did an incredible job, much like the V8 conversion I saw in Gatlinburg, and I applaud them both. As we said in the 60's when we bought our A, "different strokes for different folks".
- Ken
Ken Doris

OK here goes...
I'm....also building a.... V8 powered MGA!
There I've said it on this BBS - I've 'come out'!!!!!

And yes it has the same front suspension as the car in question (I would also love the independent rear setup to match but its out of my budget).
How did I come to this horrendous decision? well after years of deliberation over what to do with my 'box of bits' rebuild project (no matching numbers - in fact no matching anything), I decided to give it some grunt via Rover 3.5 V8 power.
My thinking is this, while it will always upset the purists, this 'A' will at least be back on road (one day).From all external views it will look exactly like an A (but will sound better) and give a few people a surprise. Regarding the suspension/braking setup, with this sort of horsepower, I'd like it go around corners and stop, due to a desire to live long enough to enjoy it.
Whilst I admire Pip Highams car, the Mazda engine route is not for me, as I want to keep it as British/MG as possible - as they say different strokes...

So, I guess I'm banished to the 'engine conversions' board from now on - its been nice reading your threads.

Chris.
PS
My doctor has confirmed that my destructive nature is due to an addiction to V8's, following high levels of V8 abuse in an earlier life.


C J Bond

I have no problem with that or any other conversion.
My current MG is a blown ZA which will shortly have an MGB 1800 in it. Not exactly a VTEC or a V8 for that matter, but I am enjoying messing with my car.
Concours isn't for everyone, some of us prefer modifying our cars.
Don't forget, The first MG was just a modified Morris!
I wonder if that got The Morris Fanciers Club all bent out of shape?

Cheers,
Rich
Rich McKIe

Sorry, Chris. The Rover 3.5 is an American engine. I guess you'll just have to stuff in a Daimler 2.5.

Derek Nicholson

Well, it isn't that my opposition to non original type engines is because I am a concours nut, because I certainly am not. I just think that the whole point of playing with the old cars is to enjoy them as they were, to the extent practical. I'm all in favor of reversible mods if they make driving and/or servicing a car more enjoyable, so that their owners will be more inclined to drive them in public. MGB engines in an A get a free pass as far as I am concerned, especially if the car's original motor is toast, or missing altogether.

But a hack job (regardless of workmanship) to install a V-6, V-8, V-tec, or what have you turns my stomach, because you are making a car that will never be original again. I think if you want one of those engines, you should buy the car that it comes in to go with it and leave the MG for somebody who can appreciate it for what it is.
Del Rawlins

Del

The Rover V8 was also used in the MGB V8- so I guess that makes it an MG engine too!

dominic clancy

Delightful article, if I had the money, I'd be real tempted to have the car reproduced for myself. Selfish, I know. But it sure looks good and sounds like it would be so much FUN.
Tom


I restored my 3rd. and last MGA from 2 junk MGA's and installed a 215 Buick. The other 2 were stock. With MG valve covers. people at car shows that don't know any better think it's a stock MG engine. I have a lot of fun with that. The sound and power is just to much fun. I would never go back to a stock MGA. My son has a 215 Buick in his '73 MGB. We have a great time together at car shows.

Lyle
Lyle Jacobson

Hey Del,

Do you think that people who put V8's really care what you think? Who put you in charge of what is correct? Your remarks are going from humorous to insulting. Guess what--you can put a Rover V8 in an MG and later reverse it if desired. So where does that leave your theory?
James Johanski

Look, it's your car, and you can butcher it as much or as little as you please. 8^)
Del Rawlins

Hi Derek,

Yes, I know the 3.5 was originally a Buick engine, but bear in mind that Buick abandoned it in 63, after only a couple of in years production. Then they sold it to Rover, who produced it for 40 years. So I guess we tend to see it as part of our motoring heritage.
Daimler V8's are now as rare as hens teeth and not even a 'vandal' like me would suggest ripping one out of a Dart to put it in an MGA.

And a final note to Barney and all the purists, I've seen some of modified MGA horror stories (most of them from the US, i'm afraid to say! - with the classic being the guy trying to convert his into a AC Cobra lookalike, complete with 427 V8) and have to agree to a certain extent. But before you dismiss quality conversions such as Pip Highams as irrelevent, remember that in the majority of cases these vehicles have had as much (and in some cases more) blood, sweat, tears and money put into them, as any original restoration.

Chris.

C J Bond

Del, while I certainly value your opinion and right to hold it, I might like to add that most of the cars 'butchered' were in many ways beyond 'restoration'. That's not to say that with unlimited funds and time they could not have been restored to original, but in most cases they were too far gone to make a realistic restoration project. My car came with no engine, transmission, rear axle, or front spindles. The nose was very badly damaged due to accident damage and the sills were practically non-existant as well as the boot floor and all four fenders needed lower area rust repair. Someday I hope my 'hotrod' MGA will be a well finished car, capable of being admired by may people such as the V8 conversion done by John Mangles in St. Louis. http://www.themgdoc.com/ He also started with a really rough car, probably not as bad as mine, but still a long way from restorable. These are cars that would probably have gone to the crusher or been cut up for parts if not for those of us wanting a 'modified' MGA. Most don't want to cut up a good car, and certainly can admire a great restoration. The spirit of "Hot Rodding" has long been part of the American automotive scene and will continue to be so, yet the restorers have also found plenty of cars to satisfy their needs. There is room for all.
Bill Young

And some cretin butchered SRX210. Even put a fastback on it, changed the grill and headlights. He should be strung up! The nerve!

Derek Nicholson

If a picture's worth a thousand words, this soundtrack must be worth a million, and I'll let it speak for me:-

http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&exiturl=http://video.google.com/videoplay%3Fdocid=-8874339191133888020%26q=rover+v8%26hl=en
Derek Nicholson

That's just wrong!
Del Rawlins

Nicest "hack" job I've seen!

Better not look at this one either, Del.

http://www.californiaclassix.com/archive/61_MGA-V8.html

Derek Nicholson

I've looked at the "mgdoc" page and have one question. Even with a car that is far gone, how could a V-8 conversion be less work or less expensive than a restoration to original configuration, assuming good workmanship in each case? If you are starting with a car which is missing its original drivetrain, either way you have to acquire a new drivetrain. And in addition to all the normal work involved with rebuilding a car, you also have to add in the custom fitting to get all of the parts to work together. It just seems to me that no matter how far gone the car is, it would be far easier to restore it as original than to turn it into something it was never meant to be. Saying that it was too far gone to restore just seems like rationalizing, since you are doing the same amount of work, and then some. And I can't see where it is saving any money, either.

And just so that I am not misinterpreted again, it is your car and to each his own. I may find the modifications distasteful, but I would also defend your right to do as you wish with your own property. And I guess it beats allowing it to rust away into nothingness, if you make the assumption (which may be correct for all I know) that there are more MGAs then there will ever be people willing to save them. Just don't try to rationalize it by saying the car couldn't be saved with an original type drivetrain. The parts are readily available.
Del Rawlins

As a point of interest the American V8 that was later adopted by Rover was developted many years ago from a German V8 engine that they got hold of and copied.
J H Cole

Del,

You're right about that, the MGA can be put back to original with enough money and time. Actually, it's a lot less work and money to put one back to original. Anytime you do modifications the price goes up. I did a ground up to original on a '52 MGTD, and restored two other MGA's to stock. Plus a '66 and '69 Mustang all to original. I just wanted a V8. Great video sounds like my car. FUN, FUN, FUN.

Lyle
Lyle Jacobson

Del, I do agree with the fact that these cars could have been restored. However in my case the cost would far excede the cost to modify the car. Yes, parts are available, but not nearly as plentiful as MGB parts such as the front uprights and rear axle I used. (Freebies in my case thanks to a fellow club member)
I'm pretty certain that at least in this part of the country that the $225 I spent on an engine and transmission assembly was far less than a MGA engine and comparable to a B 1800. The body restoration costs are pretty much the same, however since the car isn't original then I'm not worried about using gauges from a B even if they're not the correct type, again at much less cost than the A type gauges. I operate on a fairly limited budget for my hobby, not by necessity, but by choice. By the way, the car was advertised for several months in the club newsletter without takers before I worked out a trade for it, so the local MG enthusiasts had their chance and passed. I hope to have the car completed for a total cash outlay of under $10K, probably much less, so compared to the average price of a restored MGA I'm coming out well within my budget and price range and I don't think I could have done a proper restoration for that price.
Bill Young

J H, tell me more I've never heard that part of the story.

Derek Nicholson

Hi unfortunately I have to comment My first A was in 1960 Hillclimbs, Gymcahnas and running from the police etc. Man it handeled and speed compared to my dads caddilac and moms Buick. It was a sports car ie a performance car. Move foward 47 years I again have a 1960 with 35k invested one of the nicest most origonel 4000 mile a year drivers I know.
On my favorite west marin motorcycle roads NOTHING is worse being stuck behind an old lady (yonger then me )in her yugo and not haveing the power to pass before the next curve section.
Irak, Iran, tsunamis, etc nothing has been as relaxing as wasting time reading BBS threads on the car I love .NOW that is over were did all the hate come among MG owners ? Please no more posting from up north let me read about fuel gagues in peace.
Sorry about the spelling spent to much time in the MG during school Bob.
Bob Lewitt

There is no hate here, just a difference of opinion. The closest thing to hate which I have felt towards another MGA owner was when not long ago, I found this guy parting out (looting) what had been an obviously solid car over Ebay. At least the engine conversion guys are enthusiasts, even if they are a bit misguided... 8^)
Del Rawlins

Derek- I agree with your comment about SRX210. What about those hacks who took a perfectly good 56 roadster,welded on a roof and put wind up windows on it(ULJ 426), or those who took a good twin cam and put a different body on and then never went any further with it and got rid of it, EX 186
gary starr

A more appropriate analogy, would be buying SRX210 or EX186 today, tearing out the notoriously unreliable and underpowered (compared to larger and more modern engines) twin cam engine, and replacing with a V-8. Maybe with a hood scoop and chrome valve covers. Use a British rover engine from a later MG and it would all be okay, right?
Del Rawlins

So what you mean then is it would be ok to take an MGF and put in say all wheel drive? Some how I get the impression that 51 years ago you'd be commenting how they have ruined MG by bringing out that new fangled A. I guess I'm on your sh** list for taking 2 A's to make one good one http://users.pandora.be/mga_world/MG_A_Forum_Members/album/slides/Gary_Starr__Algonquin_Illinois_USA.html Maybe I should part the bastard out. Get over it Del,it's not your place to save all the A's in the world or being the correct police.
gary starr

Suppose that Carrol Shelby took a wrong turn and had ended up in Abingdon on Thames instead of Thames Ditton! Would we be having the same discussion?

TTFN

Derek Nicholson

A bit sensitive, are we? I just think that MGs are MGs and Corvettes are Corvettes, and one should not try to be the other. And that each should be appreciated for what they are, and conserved in a form that is appropriate to its history.

It doesn't much matter to me what anybody does to an "MGF" since putting an MG badge on a car doesn't make it so.
Del Rawlins

Del, I went to your web site--It appears your A belonged to your father--or are you the father. Either way, I now understand your passion for preservation to original. I am also happy and grateful for all of you that preserve these cars in their original form, it is a noble task. Now can we all quit arguing and get on with enjoying our MG's in whatever form they take?
James Johanski

Yes, the MGA belonged to my father. He purchased it in 1963, and many of my earliest memories revolve around it. It was my dad's understanding that it had been raced, but that's the extent of my knowledge of it before he bought it. My challenge is to restore it in a form that is true to how it was when he drove it, yet is acceptable to my own tastes. I'm going to make changes (sometimes for originality, other times for convenience), but my objective is to end up with a car that my dad would still recognize as his.

And for the record, I am not opposed to modifications per se; I just like to see the character of a car preserved. What you are doing is infinitely preferable to a salvageable car going to the crusher or being parted out.

If you looked at my website, you probably also saw the basket case 1600 that was my dad's restoration project. That belongs to my brother now, and as soon as he can move back to Alaska (his career has kept him in the lower 48) he's going to finish it, with my assistance. For now the 1500 has to be my priority since it was dad's as much as I hate having 2 cars apart at once. At one point we had a 3rd MGA but it was sold after dad passed away.
Del Rawlins

Del, My deepest thanks and appreciation for the details of your MGA and your father and brother. I lost my father a four years ago. We shared many things as I was growing up. When I got my MGA (first car) he was traveling quite a lot, and I was in college. The hectic schedules we both faced and my eventual enlistment in the Army and tour in Viet Nam, prohibited us from sharing the MGA. Both he and the car are gone now, but I know that he is watching and marveling in my most recent efforts. When it comes down to the bone, it's all about the memories. Hope we can meet some day.
James Johanski

Without the memories, it is just another car. Wish he could be here to see them both finished.
Del Rawlins

Derek, the info on the source of the General Motors 1960's V8 comes from an article in 'Safety Fast' June 2000 where it states that it was a close copy of the 1950's German BMW V8. Its pretty common for car manufacturers to copy each other and the article also gives the example of William Morris's copy of the Ford 8 HP side valve engine for their 8HP engine that went into the Morris Eight.
J H Cole

Thanks, JH. I'd never heard that part of the story. Anyone own a Rover V8 and a BMW V8.

BMW 507

Engine

* Type: eight-cylinder V-engine
* bore x stroke (mm): 82 x 75
* Displacement: 3,168
* Power output: 150 PS at 5,000 U/min
* compression: 1:7,8
* valves: Overhead, central camshaft, carburetion system 2 Zenith 32 NDIX dual-barrel downdraught carburettors

http://www.carbodydesign.com/archive/2006/11/21-bmw-507-and-503/BMW-503-engine.jpg

http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/photo/126897,2542,0,0/photo.aspx

OK, it's got an alloy block and it's a V8. Did they go into more specifics as to the similar/copied features? If anyone has a scan, I'd love to have a read.

TTFN



Derek Nicholson

This thread was discussed between 13/11/2006 and 23/11/2006

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