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MG MGA MGA - Purchasing - Part 2 BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG MGA - MGA - Purchasing - Part 2
| Hi there, I continue my MGA hunt, trying to be rigurous and critical about the specimens I see advertised. No I wanted to open the discussion to the engine modifications area. I have seen often that restored cars have had a number of different modifications which I will list below. Now my understanding is that generally as a 'purist' MGA collector you would want everything to be in the most original condition as possible, i.e. as if it came out of the factory today. Regarding the engines I see there are several cases; - MGA with fully original engine matching numbers (higher cost + values) - MGAs with 'non-matching numbers' (lower cost + value) Or to get that extra power; - MGAs with original /matching engine block (i.e. 1500 or 16000), but with upgraded or modified cylinder head (e.g. with an 1800 head on). - MGAs with an MGB engine (which I understand is a direct bolt-on). And then with all of these you may have a mixture of the following; - upgraded engine accessories, i.e. Starter, alternator, electronic ignition, fuel pump, cooling fans, etc. Now I guess it will depend on the target use of the car, i.e. if it is a driver or a show room car, but I was wondering how can I evaluate the VALUE of the car that are in these various conditions. Eg. I would imagine that having an 1800 engine is better for driving since it has more power, but it is LESS original so should it be worth less? What should I think of a car that has a modified cylinder head but original engine block? Good, or asking for trouble? I am not concerned about power as I want the car just for cruising and enjoying a maintaining classic car, so I have the feeling that I want the engine to be as original as possible and with some modern technology upgrades on the engine accessories to minimise the older technology faults (eg. electronic ignition, to avoid problems in humidity, etc). Is my reasoning good? how do you guys see this? Any advice or open discussion is welcome. Take care, Gonzalo |
| G Ramos |
| Sounds like you have it pretty much sorted, Gonzalo. The B series in almost any guise is a strong motor and if properly rebuilt can handle any reasonable bolt on upgrade. You might want to lower the compression a little for a supercharger though! The other thing is that with the right paint and ancillaries, almost any MGA or MGB engine will look stock to the untrained eye. The value depends on the buyer! But more importantly on the quality of the work. When I see a five bearing engine stuck in an MGA complete with carburetters alternator, filter etc. I think that will detract from the value significantly. The same engine painted and detailed with MGA rocker, carbs etc. etc. would pass as original and not detract (or may even add to the value compared to an original tired engine) It is not unheard of for cars to win concours with MGB engines hidden in there! Regarding upgrades other than performance, you can live quite happily without them. Most often they are made to replace a worn out or faulty original item. You can read a lot more about this on Barneys mgaguru.com site Regarding value, I wouldn't get too concerned unless the rest of the car was incredibly original! |
| Neil McGurk |
| Hi,Gonzalo, I’m sure that each person on this site will give you different answers to each of your questions. First, short of having a Heritage Certificate, there is no way of knowing if an MGA has “matching” numbers. On the VIN plate of both the 1600s and 1500s in the space for Engine Number is stamped, “See Engine.” Twin-cams may be stamped with the engine number, I don’t know. You may find 1500s with disc brakes, is that better (more valuable) than the original drum brakes? If they are MGB brakes, is the car worth more or less than with MGA discs? Every person will give you a different answer to that! Personally, I would rather buy a car with new panted 60 spoke ww than one with 48 spoke chrome ww., but that’s my choice. |
| David Werblow |
| It is my understanding that the engine numbers associated with a particular chassis were not recorded at the factory so there is no such thing as a matching engine number for an MGA even with a Heritage Certificate. http://archive.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/heritage_certificates_faq.html The best you can do is determine if the chassis and engine were produced in about the same time frame. |
| Jeff Schultz |
| Gonzalo....You are asking almost impossible questions...most answers can only be subjective based on the preference of the observer/owner. I would suggest that you first ask yourself what you want....There are two the extremes ' The Purist' ( as you call him/her) and the 'Pragmatist ' ( as I call him/her). The Purist is looking for all original ( or as close as possible ...and the pragmatist usually think MGAs are a gorgeous design but some of the technology is a bit ancient ( pre war in some cases! ) and unreliable and therfore proceeds to update and supplement with sometimes a bent on improving performance and handling.I am in this camp. So which camp are you in ? know this first and most of your questions can then be answered by yourself. You can look at the cars and judge how much cost to get to the Purist nirvana state if that is what you wish.. ...your previous queries and answers on the condition of car structure are common ground for both schools and are to me much more important. |
| Neil Ferguson |
| David, The Twin Cam engine number is on a plate rivetted to the rear of the engine block, not on the VIN plate (see image). Mick  |
| M F Anderson |
| I guess the bottom line is are you buying it as an investment to sell on at some time or to keep it and enjoy? I rebuilt my car to almost original specification 12 years ago. Since then, like many MGA owners from 1955 onwards, I have been modifying it to suit my own tastes. I have retained most of the original bits so that at some time in the future I could put it all back to square one - unlikely. I cannot see me ever selling the car. It is now part of the family. It is 'dressed' in such a way that gives me the most pleasure. Having done some research and asked us all sorts of questions I think you will likely know when you spot a car that is right for you. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Hi again Gonzalo, all MGAs are fun to drive and if cruising is your aim then I wouldnt worry too much about the engine size unless you intend to do some very high speed cruising. Also they are all such fun to drive on bendy roads but even a 1500 car with an engine in good shape will be happy to run at 70mph on a freeway. If you a looking for more comfortable cruising though I would highly recommend a higher diff ratio, at least a 4.1 to 1 or a 3.9 if your engine has the power to pull this. This will help reduce both the engine noise and the mechanical stress on it which makes for much more relaxed cruising. I would also advise you to look carefully at which silencer you fit as mine is a stainless steel one and although it sounds fantastic, it leaves me with ringing ears after an hour or so. (I have taken to using ear plugs which help but my wife has asked me why I only appear to wear them when she is in the car with me!) My car has a mildly tuned 3 bearing MGB engine in it, a 5 speed gearbox and a 4.3 diff which with the overdriven 5th gear equates to approximately a 4.1 diff. It has no problem running comfortably at 80mph on our motorways but it also has lots of low down pulling power which allows me to be lazy with the gear changes and I can even drive though towns without dropping lower than 3rd gear. Hope this helps Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| >> On the VIN plate of both the 1600s and 1500s in the space for Engine Number is stamped, “See Engine.” Original VIN plates on 1500s through to 1958 are stamped with the engine number. |
| Andy Bounsall |
| The reason I was asking these questions is because I have been looking at a prospective car that has such modifications. This is what the guy is saying; 1959 MG, MG-A ROADSTER, restored & extremely nice, first time offered up for sale, dark blue/biscuit leather intra & cloth top, eng. has been replaced w/a rebuilt 1800, 5 main baring w/a four speed tranny, new chrome wire rims w/knock off & set of tires, too many new parts to list but can send more photos. Then after and email he sent me this; Hello Gonzoalo, The MG-A had a body of frame restoration, the frame was soda blasted then primer and painted. The body was done the same way. Then re-install both parts and it was auto painted and the finale touch was that it was under coated. Since the restoration it has never been driven or out in the rain. Pictures here; http://picasaweb.google.com/gramosgarzon/MGABlue9January10840AM?pli=1&gsessionid=Ts7LlGozHa0wQiFDjuNrbw# What do you think? The guy is asking for $18,875, which is a bit more than what I wanted to spend. But if you think it is a very interesting example I might go up (involves me taking a flight...) to see it in person. |
| G Ramos |
| Gonzalo It is considerably off a standard spec MGA, but that has to be your decision. It is hardly for me to comment as my own is also considerably modified. The most obvious thing, though is the body colour. It looks a metallic blue that was never original in the MGA. This could put off future potential buyers. The engine compartment has been modified (besides being an 1800). It has what appears to be a Weber carburettor instead of the twin SUs and is also running an alternator. There are other cosmetic engine compartment details. All the engine compartment stuff can be easily altered. Some guys prefer the carburettor arrangement you show in the pictures. My biggest concern would be the car colour. That has to be your decision. My car is also a colour not issued by the factory - British Racing Green. My choice. I enjoy it. It can be as simple as that. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| I find colors that scream another era wrong. My Daddy drove a 70 Caddilac that was that color of blue. The Weber DGV is a poor choice for a carburator. Twin SUs are a better choice. Does he still have the original pieces? To use a 5 main and matching trans you have to open up the tunnel to fit the wider trans. Was this done and if so was it done well or butchered? |
| R J Brown |
| Hi again Gonzalo, this car looks much better than the last one you showed us. Did the dealer say how long it was since the restoration Gonzalo? Whilst the paintwork looks pretty reasonable on the outside, the paintwork inside the engine compartment looks a little neglected. I would have thought it should look almost a good as the outer paintwork does! Also most people paint the insides of the wings(fenders)and bodywork the same colour as the outside and not black which again is a concern. There looks to be fresh black paint (or is it underseal)underneath the car, I always worry when I see fresh black paint as it is usually applied to cover something up.(rust?) The chassis looks quite good as far as I can tell from a photo and the bodywork also but you definitely need to take someone who knows MGAs with you to check it out especially around the inner sill and door pillar area. Im sure you can persuade someone from the forums to meet up with you. Most of us would jump at the opportunity to look at another MGA. It has what appears to be a Webber (or is it a Holley) downdraught carb fitted which is slightly unusual and you will need expert advice on this also.I have heard that they dont give much advantage (if any) over the standard SUs. I hope it turns out to be ok but if you have any concerns, dont buy it. Just take lots of pics , tell the seller you will think about it and post them on here so we can tell you what we think. Finally, even if the car is good, always negociate the price! Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| I think that it depends very much how you intend to use your car. MG owners have a long history of modifying their rides to improve the performance and handling. If you intend the car primarily for shows then originality is your first concern. As far as the engine number is concerned I think that only the early cars have the engine numbers stamped on the ID plate. At least by the 1600 the ID plate simply reads "See Engine". Anyway since the number is stamped on a metal plate, and that removable, I would not get too wrapped up in correct numbers. If your car is to be used the way that the makers intended, that means driven, you should consider modifications that will improve the driving experience. A five speed trans, alternator,radial tires, and anti sway bars come to mind come to mind. I sure that there are many others some of which are not even visible to the casual observer. The important thing is to enjoy the car and the experience. |
| Keith Lowman |
| RJ, from the underside it looks like the original transmission (or MGA at least) Too much fresh underseal for my taste, but it looks like it was applied to freshen up the appearance rather than to hide anything too serious. My biggest disappointment is lack of any good exterior and interior or trunk pictures. Non standard interior and exterior colours are ok when YOU prefer them to the limited colours offered by the factory. But, as Steve says, that should really be the owners choice. Metallics are less easy to match (for repair) than solids, but to be honest matching any paint on cars this age is a specialist skill. This car will need a lot of close inspection given the previous owners acceptance for substituting original specification components. Examples that I can see in addition to those already listed include: battery, fuel pump, wiring cable connectors, top hose, horn, electric fan (in addition to mechanical) side screens and door handles. No good pictures of the dashboard to see the switches and instruments. Not to say they are not all legitimate "improvements", if everything is working as it should. Would like to see the tappet ("cylinder side")cover breather pipe configuration as I don't see the pipe below the engine block. Also, there is no overflow pipe on the radiator. My own personal opinion is that these changes do not add value (to me), in fact quite the contrary. However, it would be a reasonably good (buyers) price in the UK, which suggests to me that it is probably a little higher than normal there. That said it is from a car dealer so you can expect to pay three or four thousand dollars more than in a private sale. |
| Neil McGurk |
| Hi, Again! Need more photos. Here is one area that you need a photo of. This is a poor fit of a rear fender dog leg—bad gap at the door. At least the joint between the fender and the rocker is not filled in! Second photo shows “F” section and the latch plate—not perfect.  |
| David Werblow |
Second photo
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| David Werblow |
| Hi Gonzalo this one for sale in the UK for comparison purposes http://www.modernmotoring.com/ and click on showroom for red mga £18,995 Gordon |
| g c pugh |
| Window shopping, Gordon? Any chance of another A this year? |
| Neil McGurk |
| This is an A for sale in Oz at around the same price (A$=US$0.92). http://www.mgcc.com.au/wanted/sell.shtml Does the price Gonzalo was quoted represent a fair market price in US for a car in this condition? From a far, my thoughts are it seems too much. Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| HI Gordon, welcome back! Even if you don't currently own one, you experience and input is important. Russ |
| Russ Carnes |
| Hi Guys, thanks for kind words will look in from time to time, no car in sight yet I,m afraid at least I have visiting rights on my red one lol gordon |
| g c pugh |
| I have spoken again to the owner of the car. The guy seem to know what he is doing in terms of restoration. He has a hangar full of classic cars that are being restored. I have asked him for some more pictures of the car with details so we will be able to judge it better. BTW I asked him about how he did the modification to fit in the tranny in the tunnel. He told me it was done by a machineshop...whatever that means. I really like the choice of colors and the overall look. I believe the guy must have the original parts too in case I want to reverse some of the mods. What attract me particularly on this one is that at least the underside has been taken care of, (even if with excess of under-sealer) so I am hoping I will not have any rust issues in the near future. The small cosmetic and mechanical things I guess I can work on myself. I agree the price is a bit high. I all else is well I would offer him $15k, see what happens. Then I still need to pay at least $500 for transport. As I said lets see the pics and then we can judge again. Take care, Gonzalo |
| G Ramos |
| Here are the additional pics of the car. http://picasaweb.google.com/gramosgarzon/MGABlue9January10840AM# To me it looks nice and it a nice shape even if no in a very original condition. Once again, I know I should go to see it, but any comments are welcome. My main concern is bondo at this stage. If all else is good I will try to take a flight and go up to see it. Regards, Gonzalo |
| G Ramos |
| Gonzalo, since your main concern is bondo, I'll point you to pictures # 5, 10 and 24. It is difficult to discern but I would look at this area closely in person. It looks like there MAY be bondo on the lower rear edge, under the bumper. The surface looks uneven and the stepped offset doesn't look quite even. This is an area that is often overlooked when straightening a collision. I'm not saying that there is, just look closely in this area when inspecting the vehicle. Sometimes reflections may be deceiving. Also, look at picture #30. The Left Rear wheel well at about 1:00, just behind center. There MAY be a outward dent at the lip. Again, reflections can occur in photos and may not necessarily actual damage. Look in this area in person. Good luck in your search. |
| Chuck Schaefer |
| Hi, minor point overiders front and rear are on upside down, might be through preference or an indicator that other things not done correctly Gordon ( just jealous) |
| g c pugh |
| Gonzalo, It appears to me that you are looking for a nice looking good running car that catches peoples eyes. If you are looking for an original car, stop reading here. If you like the looks of a car, and it runs and drives good, and if you can come to an agreement on price that both you and the seller like, buy it. Going down the road, nobody can see the changes that have been made to the car over the years. You will always find something that could have been done better on just about any car. If it is something you can live with, leave well enough alone. My '62 Mk-II was a total wreck when I got it. Now it is a very nice "driver" that gets comments wherever we go. If a "purist" started looking it over, he would have a fit. But, it's my car and I like it and it drives nicely. If I had restored it to all original, I would have so much money invested I would be afraid to drive it on the road. I prefer a car that I like to drive as opposed to a car that is just to look at. Happy hunting, Ed  |
| Ed Bell |
| Here are some links to VA Clubs. There are MGA's for sale in the first two ads. You might wish to run ads in wanted, also. You might wish to get on the NAMGAR site and check ads in clubs nearby. http://cvbcc.com/classified.htm http://www.mgcarclubdc.com/classifd.html http://www.mg.org/classifieds.html |
| Bill Haglan |
| Hi this one might be a contender http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MG-MGA-MGA-MGA-MKII-ROADSTER_W0QQitemZ150405555046QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2304dea366 gordon |
| g c pugh |
| Indeed I agree with you Gordon. In fact I asked the seller some questions about the condition it is in and here is his response. ------------ GOOD EVENING, I WILL PUT SOME PHOTOS OF THE TRUNK AND UNDER CARRIAGE ON THE SITE.I HAVE RERPLACED ONE BATTERY BOX, AND HAVE THE OTHER TO DO. THE STEERING RUBBERS HAVE BEEN REPLACED AS WELL AS SOME BRAKE HOSES AND PIPES. A PREVIOUS OWNER HAS PAINTED THE CAR THE ORIGINAL BLACK LACQUER WITHOUT REMOVING THE FENDER WELTING.THE ROCKER PANELS BELOW THE DOORS MUST HAVE BEEN REPLACED AT THE SAME TIME.I CAN ONLY BELIEVE THE ENGINE HAS BEEN REBUILT DUE TO ITS PERFORMANCE, AND THE clutch AND TRANSMISSION ARE FRESHLY REBUILT. THE UNDERSIDE OF THE CAR SHOWS 50 YEARS OF USE, BUT IS NOT RUSTED. IT IS AN OLD ENGLISH SPORTS CAR, NIMBLE, FAST AND WITH PATINA...... I HAVE BEEN DRIVING IT DAILY, LEAVING THE ASTON DB7 AT HOME IN THE GARAGE,BECAUSE THE MGA IS MORE FUN THIS WINTER. REGARDS JIM ------------- I do like this particular one, although I would change the wheels to wires. The main drawback is that it is in California and I am in Miami, FL so I will need to check the what the transport cost is. If the car goes for a reasonable price, I agree this is definitely a good candidate for me. I also like the color combination a lot. Lets see how the bids develop over time. BTW I dropped it with the metallic blue car. The guy was asking for $18,500 non-negotiable, and find it is a bit expensive for what it is. |
| G Ramos |
| May not be that important but he says it is a 1962 car, whereas the VIN number would suggest Sept/Oct 1961. I guess it was 1962 when it was first registered in the USA. The first chassis in 1962 appears to be 106026 according to Clausager. He says the previous owner over sprayed the wing (fender) piping. I wonder if this could cause body/wing paint flaking in the fullness of time. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Spoke to the guy. He did not restore it himself, but he has redone many things including transmission rebuild, brakes, interior, new vinyl top and tonneau. He has owned it for 1year. Funnily enough he brought it from Florida. What is good is that he rebuilds twin cams and MGs in his spare time, so he knows what he is talking about. The big downside is that he said he has spent to much money on it (as usual) and is no willing to loose any money. Hence his reserve is at $19k and the Buy Now at $20k. It is a bit more than I wanted to spend, considering that the paint was not done as it should so it probably needs to be redone in the next years, an that I will want to change the wheels and the transport (~$800)...I think I will go out of my budget, but you get what you pay for? He needs to see cos he has too many cars and need money for the other projects. I don't think he will sell below the reserve but I can try making him an offer. See how the biding goes. |
| G Ramos |
| I believe most 1962 MGAs in the US were built in 1961. In fact, of the 8,000+ Mark II MGAs, 6000 were built in 1961. Our Mark II(GHNL2-100870) was built in April, '61 and was always registered in the US as a '62. I think this car, if it is as good as the pictures look, is well priced at $19K and will see at or above that. The key element is whether there is significant rust - in the rocker panels, etc. - Ken |
| Ken Doris |
| Did you get the photos of the car that is in Homosassa, FL yet? If so, can you post them on the web site for us. It would be interesting to know if it is a MKII like the $20,000 E-bay car. |
| David Werblow |
| The guy in Homosassa said it is a plain 1600, red with tan interior. He said it has no rust and he is going to send me the pics this weekend. Aparently he has to uncover the car, etc. I think the MKII on Ebay will turn out to be too expensive to me, but it would have been my ideal car. I also got some quotes for enclose trailer transport and the lowest price you can get is $900 which seems quite reasonable considering the distance from CA to FL. However this if one in Homosassa looks good that would probably be my best choice, price-wise and distance-wise. It will be only like $250 to send it down to Miami. My plans is, if all else looks good on the pics to go up to see it next weekend... Lets see how it goes. |
| G Ramos |
| By the way, look at the ebay car. The guy has added some underside pics. What do you think? Seem relatively clean? although it has surface rust on most areas... |
| G Ramos |
| Also I went to see a coupe last night from a guy in Miami, that he bought a while ago and he doesn't use any more. I think it has a lot to be restored. The guy is asking for something like $10k-$12k cos he wants to get rid of it. Aparently it is on of the rare coupes cos it is from the first year of production where very little were made. Here are the pictures for as a matter of interest; http://picasaweb.google.com/gramosgarzon/MGACoupe16January101044AM# |
| G Ramos |
| Gonzalo, A rare MGA is a twin cam or one of the first (1955). Also an ex works or racer would be desirable. The others don't seem to have particular value due to rarity, unless you happened to find the person interested in an early coupe, but why? There are plenty of coupes out there. Don't let the sellers make you think that they have the only "rare" MGA out there, or that their modifications make the car significantly more desirable than any other car. The only reason a car will be more desirable is that you like it more than the next car. |
| Mike Parker |
| Don't forget that the interior of a coupe can be really warm in hot weather. Can't put the top down to let the air blow through your hair. |
| Ed Bell |
| Don't worry, I have my mind set on a Roadster anyway. I feel kind of claustrophobic with the top when I sat in it. |
| G Ramos |
This thread was discussed between 08/01/2010 and 16/01/2010
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