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MG MGA - Overtightened knock-off

Whats the fix? I don't have a lead hammer, I couldn't break one loose with the 20" knock-off "wrench" from Moss.
Steve
Steve Meline

I used a red gum surveyors peg with the point sawn off and a groove ground to take the knock off ear and 4lb hammer - it will move almost anything, if not try a bigger BFH (get your enemy to hold the block while you hit it).
Best of luck.
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

If there's a Harbor Freight near you get one of their rather inexpensive dead blow hammers, probably a 4 pound model, I think they're around $12. This will do the job on the knock offs without maring them or do too much damage to the spokes if you miss a bit. http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41800
Bill Young

Perfect tool for the job. Easy on the ears too. Almost any tool seller will have one, but that price is amazing.
R J Brown

If you need something from Moss anyway, they are having a free stuff sale where you can get a lead hammer. Also, if you're in my area, feel free to stop by and use mine. I have lots of "get the nut off" tools.
Steve Simmons

The lead hammers suck! The only thing they are good for is to keep unused in a "concourse" tool kit. They deform if you use them and they damage the ears of the knockoff. Buy the plastic faced dead blow hammer. A great tool to have for this and other uses.
The lead hammers are too light for the job. You have to swing them way too hard to do the job.
The picture shows a old lead hammer a newer lead hammer and the right hammer for the job.+


R J Brown

Just for info Blackwoods (a big Australian engineering company) quoted me near $200 for a 4 lb dead blow hammer, another tool shop All Tools sell Stanely dead blows for around $90 (multiply by 1.1 for USD)! I will be getting Harbour Freight to send me out one! (Is the quality okay?)
Mike
Mike Ellsmore

I have one with the black plastic finish rather than the orange, don't think there's any real difference in the plastic, and it works great. I haven't had any splits or chips in the face yet. For the price I don't think you could do better.
Bill Young

RJ, the problem is that your lead hammer is too small! The 4-pound size is the correct one for knockoffs. They are meant to deform to prevent damage of the knockoffs.

I've tried a huge range of hammers capable of installing and removing knockoffs. The simulated lead hammers like the ones sod by Moss are by far my favorite. Here are some thoughts on various types of hammers I've tried...

4-pound Copper: Most effective type but will damage spinners.

4-pound Rawhide: Safe on spinners but the rawhide will come apart rather quickly. When it gets too low, the metal base will damage the spinner

2.5-pound plastic-covered Dead Blow: Safe on spinners but low on power. No chance of removing a stuck spinner with this one.

1-pound Lead Alloy: Safe on spinners but low on power. Will need to be replaced after a few years of normal use.

1.5-pound steel: Damages spinners and low on power. Head too small to be convenient.

4-pound Simulated Lead: Safe on spinners and good power. Will wear out and break in a 2 or 3 years of normal use.

Of course the alternative is to view knockoff spinners as wearing items and use whatever hammer is most effective. Then just replace the spinners when they get too beat-up-looking for you. The ears of the spinner are essentially tools anyway! Ever see an old set of steel knockoffs? Some of those things barely have any ears left! The owners treated them like lug nuts rather than beauty items. :)
Steve Simmons

These lead hammers were from Moss. Yes they are too small. That was my point. The dead blow hammer in the picture is 4 lbs and 20 years old it does the job. It does not damage the knock offs and this one has survived much more than just wire wheel work.
R J Brown

Steve,
Call me if you want to use my lead hammer. It is old and very heavy which will loosen up your knock off without damage.
JEFF BECKER

RJ, just FYI they do come in a 4-pound size.

You can overpay for one if you buy it for an Aston Martin instead of an MG! LOL!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150114676099
Steve Simmons

What is the risk to damage the wheel bearing with too big a BFH?
Art Pearse

I've heard arguments both ways. Some say always loosen the knockoff while on the ground to avoid damage and some say the bearings are far stronger than you and a hammer. I would love to see some hard evidence one way or the other. Regardless, knockoffs have to be tightened in the air anyway, so loosening is the only time you have a choice about it.
Steve Simmons

Steve,
Why do "knockoffs have to be tightened in the air"?
How to stop the wheel spinning? I always tighten mine on the ground with the wooden "spanner" thingy. (Usually I can loosen them with it too.)

Neil
Neil McGurk

Making your own lead hammer is fairly easy. Select a metal can the size that you want your hammer to be, and fill it with molten lead. After it cools, peel the can off of your new hammer head (may take some effort with tin snips, pliers, etc. Select a handle at the hardware store, and drill a big hole through your hammer head to fit it, install handle, and presto. If you have a big vixen file, you can shape the head a little if you need to.

Just be sure you do your lead casting in a well ventilated area, and wash your hands after handling lead especially before eating, rubbing your eyes, etc. Wear goggles, leather gloves, and something that covers better than shorts and a t-shirt. Used wheel weights (ask at any tire shop) are a good source of scrap lead, and you can melt them in an inclined piece of angle iron using a propane torch. The lead will run out, leaving the impurities and metal clips in the angle iron. Put your can under the downhill end of the angle iron.
Del Rawlins

Del, my hat is off to you for making your own hammer. But the effort, cost of materials and danger of pouring and molding my own lead hammer isn't worth the $20 that a new hammer from moss will cost me! I'd still like to see a video of you making one though. :)

Neil, there are two main problems with tightening spinners on the ground. First, as you tighten the nut the wheel wants to move laterally onto the hub. The friction between the tire and ground prevents this, so the top of the wheel moves while the bottom does not. This means the wheel will not be fully seated when the spinner reaches optimum torque.

The second problem is that the weight of the car will create significant friction between the lower part of the wheel hub splines, which will also prevent the wheel from moving inward properly.

I simply put my foot between the tire and the ground to keep the wheel from spinning as I hammer the nut on.
Steve Simmons

hi all this might be of interestHow tight? McComb says the earliest instruction he came across was never more than finger-tight. However the looser they are the more the one set of splines is likely to fret against its opposite number causing wear and instructions for many years have been to hammer them up then check after 20 miles and retighten if necessary. 'Hammering' means with a copper hide lead or similar mallet (see below) and not beating the living daylights out of it with a steel sledge-hammer. Manually overtightening could well distort the wheel centre affecting the tightness of the spokes and the 'true' of the wheel hence causing balance problems. The recheck after 20 miles can only be a belt-and-braces check maybe against having left it finger tight or less when refitting given the self-tightening action 20 miles will probably have tightened it up anyway. I bought the MGOC 'lead-faced' hammer with my wire wheels but the 'lead' seemed far too hard to me one tentative whack confirmed my fears by marking my brand-new chrome spinner so I had to resort to using a block of wood as a buffer for several years. Then I discovered a Thor hammer in my local Halfords that had nylon one side and aluminium the other and in 10 years or so of use it (the nylon end) hasn't left a single mark on the spinners. Click here for the Thor web site for UK sales although I can't currently see a picture of the exact hammer I have. Anglo American are agents for Thor hammers see here for North American stockists. Thor also do the correct (for older MGs really) copper and leather hammer but is is very expensive.
g c pugh

I tighten with solid blows until the tip of the ear moves about 1/4" per blow. That's plenty tight. Do NOT over-tighten for reasons already stated above.

I would personally NEVER leave them "finger tight". I've seen them come off despite the theoretical "self-tightening" feature. Sometimes they tighten themselves on and sometimes they wobble off. It depends on an astronomical number of variables, none of which I'm willing to question when it comes to my safety.
Steve Simmons

Very interesting debate - I have never had instruction before on tightening mine in the 5 years I have had wire wheel- I always give them an extra knock when lowered on the ground just to make sure - hope I haven't damaged anything! I use a heavy "rubber" mallet that I purchased at a car show for £2 - works well with no marks left at all. cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

Steve, Cam,
Technically Steve is right about tightening off the ground, but, provided the wheel is located (i.e. the spinner finger tight - I turn the wheel holding the spinner), the flex in the tyre is more than enough to overcome any further movement when final tightening on the ground.

I normally tighten with the wooden "spanner" until it feels tight but not to tight to remove with the same spanner, if that makes sense!

It would be more interesting to hear from anyone who had a spinner come loose or from someone whe has caused damage from incorrect assembly. Then we know what not to do!

Most common result of overtightening is probably a very difficult to remove spinner. What about grease? I know many guys use "Copper slip", I use the same multi purpose bearing grease (for everything).

Neil
Neil McGurk

I also use multipurpose grease on the splines and spinner threads. I do live in a dry climate, so there may be something better for those in salty or wet places.

As for tightening on the ground, I'm sure there's no harm in hammering the last couple blows on the ground. The requirement to tighten in the air is documented although I can't remember where off hand. Perhaps the owner's book? I'll have to dig around.

"It would be more interesting to hear from anyone who had a spinner come loose..."

That would be me. I had a wheel come off once from a loose spinner although the circumstances were far from normal. The hub splines on one of the front wheels were shot which resulted in a wheel spinning under hard braking. I stopped to check things and the spinner was snug but not fully tight. I hammered it tight and it stayed that way for the next 20 miles before it spun again under hard braking. Pulled over and checked it again and it was, again, snug but not tight so once again I hammered it tighter. Nearly to the repair shop it spun once more under hard braking. I decided to let it stay "snug" and continued on. The spinner came off as did the wheel.
Steve Simmons

My local Harbor Freight Tools dose not carry the 4 lb. dead-blow, I had to settle for a 3lb. About 40 wack-a-roos later the spinner was loose and unharmed. A 4lb would have been better, still, even the 3lb was the tool for the job! I had driven several thousand miles since checking the nuts, this one must have somehow tightened itself up.
As always, thanks for the help Guys.
Steve
Steve Meline

Theoretically, they will self-tighten as you drive. They also corrode in place if moisture gets in there. Glad it worked out!
Steve Simmons

I never hit my "knock-offs" directly but use strips of hardboard (used to be called Masonite here in OZ) and a heavy "club" hammer (steel or cast iron, not sure which). I sometimes use very hard hardwood, in both cases they are useless off-cuts. However I carry cans of that aerosol "puncture sealer" and compressed air in all of my cars just to get me home where I can safely attack the "knock-offs" instead of the side of the road!
Barry Bahnisch

One of my favorite things to do when people are visiting the garage is to offer them the opportunity to hammer the knockoff spinners. They are usually far too terrified, insisting the chrome will be damaged. I then demonstrate by beating the daylights out of one to the delight, and horror of onlookers. The expression of disbelief when they see the unscathed chrome is priceless. :)
Steve Simmons

>However I carry cans of that aerosol "puncture sealer"
>and compressed air in all of my cars just to get me home
>where I can safely attack the "knock-offs" instead of
>the side of the road!

The likelihood of that stuff sealing a punctured tube at all is very low. When a tube is punctured, the tendency is for the hole to expand while there is still pressure remaining, because tubes have no reinforcement and depend totally on the tire for their strength. So the chance of the sealer bridging the cap is pretty small. And since you are running tubes with your wires, the sealer is just a waste of time and money (and makes a mess).

The sealer works better with tubeless tires, because the strength of the tire is such that in the case of a simple puncture, the hole won't expand due to stretching, so the fluid can seal it. The sealer is still a bad idea, because it complicates the repair process and makes it more difficult to get a reliable patch job.
Del Rawlins

And your tire repair guy will charge you a huge fee to clean up the mess! Not to mention that he may never let you in the shop again. ;)
Steve Simmons

I'm afraid that I do not understand the responses to my suggestion. Yes, I do have tubed tyres and the tube is normally renewed following a puncture (modern tubes are practically impossible to repair and why would you?). Hence the old tube is thrown out, so where does the "mess" come from? I can also assure the "experts" that the aerosol DOES WORK, I HAVE SUCCESSFULLY USED IT!
Barry Bahnisch

The "experts" are strangely silent! Surely "beating the daylights" out of knock-offs with a hammer is a (bad) joke, doubters are invited to look at my collection of "throw-aways" salvaged from MG's from the early 30's to the 70's which had been subjected to just such treatment. Even copper hammers which have work hardened are capable of inflicting quite noticeable damage to not only the chrome plating but to the nut itself.
Barry Bahnisch

Barry, see my post above regarding copper hammers. They do damage knockoffs, no arguments there. Additionally, as noted I have been hammering on the same knockoffs for years with lead hammers and there is not a scratch. If you like I'll post a video of me "beating the daylights" out of a spinner with said hammer and post it for you.

I've used that sealer foam stuff in the distant past. It was hit and miss. The mess is a problem in tubeless tires, or in a tubed tire where the hole does not get sealed and the foam gets into the tire. If it stays contained in the inner tube and manages to seal the hole then all the better.

By the way, most of us are silent because we're sleeping!
Steve Simmons

I have to agree withe Steve on this one. I snug mine up a little past hand tight. Once you start driving they will self-tighten as you drive. This is clearly evident once you go and try to remove them again. You will see it requires much more effort even after just driving around the block. I always apply a light coat of Litioum grease to mine.
WMR Bill

There is no reason why a modern tube can't be patched; I have patched lots of them. Just because it has a hole in it is no cause to throw away an otherwise perfectly good tube. Furthermore, if the tire goes flat again, having patched and reused the old tube can be extremely useful for diagnostic purposes. If a new hole is co-located with a patch, you know that whoever repaired the tire didn't fix whatever the problem was with the tire (usually didn't completely remove the foreign object). If the hole is in a different location, you know that something else caused it. That is assuming the tire was marked prior to dismounting and reassembled per the marks, which is generally standard practice to preserve balance.

As for the sealer, I guess you got lucky. My observation is that sealer in tubes is generally a waste of time and money. In a tubeless tire it has some utility in the event of dire emergency, but you are almost always better off using the spare instead. For example, if driving long distance in the middle of BFE, it could be handy if you have already used your spare and get another flat.

Del Rawlins

This thread was discussed between 10/01/2008 and 17/01/2008

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