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MG MGA - Power Steering: Year End Controversy
Now I know this is going to be a touchy subject! I have two classic drives - a frogeye sprite and a late MGA. The Sprite is light and nimble, allowing precise positioning through corners with light and direct steering. When I first had the A it had a 16" wheel. Initially I changed it to a smaller one and then quickly changed it back because I was having trouble turning tightly round bends. After about 6 months I put the smaller wheel back (I think it is 14") and coped with the heavier feel to the steering. Probably if it weren't for the Frog I would have been happy and accepted the fact that "a man's car has to be heavy"! Now I'm not very tall and don't weight train, all of which I suspect are negative points for an A driver. But the heavy steering compared to the Frog ruined the drive enjoyment. The time had come to fork out for power steering in the form of an EZ Steering unit. The agent is in Devon (and I am in Kent) so I opted for a self fit, which really is straightforward given a little mechanical and electrical ability. Alternatively the agent will fit for you. For those who don't know, this unit replaces the original steering column with a new column with a drive motor mounted halfway down its length, and a black box to control the whole thing. It is totally reversible and not obvious without climbing head down into the footwell. The motor unit fits up into the space behind the dash. On the road the level of assistance is adjustable with a potentiometer-style knob. Assistance tails off at speed while parking and small roundabouts make most use of the assistance. I have only road-tested the installation over about 40 miles so far but what I am experiencing seems a big improvement in my book. I can position the car more precisely on the road in bends, and the physical effort is much reduced. I know there will be many owners happy to tolerate (perhaps enjoy!) the steering on their A, but I think it is a case of what you are used to and what you would expect. For those of you who aren't (and judging by the numbers that EZ sell there are a fair few) it's a solution worth considering. |
Graeme Williams |
I own a TD and it's a go-cart compared to my A, steering-wise. I understand the concern. The A has the feel of an old truck. Sorry, but that's the way it is... in comparison. I've owned a '64 B and a '64 E-Type, and I don't recall either with the molasses-like steering of the A. Anyone else find this to be the case? |
MAndrus |
Graeme you won't get any criticism from this direction, i have heard nothing but good things about that unit. It is unobtrusive and easily removed by future owners (DFOs? 😁) I understand that you can adjust the amount of steering assist by simply turning a control knob. So you can turn it down (or off) when on the road and you can turn it up around town or when you are parking the car. A year ago I ruptured the bicep in my Rt arm which has significantly weakened the arm. So I can see a time coming when I may need to look at fitting power steering unit too. As far as I'm concerned, anything that let's me drive my MGA for a few years longer has got to be a good thing! Cheers Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
Pic shows new column and control in position The motor sits vertically under the dash and you need to ensure both mounting clamps from the original column are very tight to prevent the outer column turning instead of the inner! Anticipating questions: The clutch pedal is high because i have a spacer to raise it (I'm short at 5'7). There is a electro-mechanical brake switch mounted on the pedal. The flat black box is the control box. If power to the unit were to be lost, it just steers normally. |
Graeme Williams |
Never thought about it for the A, but my RX8 had electric steering and it was a joy to drive. If the EZ unit install is reversible with minimal effort and its unobtrusive, then why not. This may be one of those items that I keep in mind for the future, if the need arises. |
Nick Kopernik |
These guys will do something similar for much less cash than the EZ solution http://easysteer.co.uk |
Dominic Clancy |
"I own a TD and it's a go-cart compared to my A, steering-wise. I understand the concern. The A has the feel of an old truck. Sorry, but that's the way it is... in comparison. I've owned a '64 B and a '64 E-Type, and I don't recall either with the molasses-like steering of the A. Anyone else find this to be the case?" I would say there is definitely something wrong with your MGA(s)! I can agree that compared to a Sprite/midget the A is less nimble - they are probably one of the best handling cars from their era, hence their popularity in autotests. I have not much experience of the TD, but definitely the MGAs I have driven are far superior to both the MGB and the early E-Type in terms of steering effort, feel, response and feedback. I can however, understand the desire for assisted steering for parking for anyone who does not feel comfortable with or is not used to the effort needed with cars of this era. |
Neil MG |
Mine drives great on the open road - no need for EPS when driving then - even at parking speed it is fairly light and I have just had a heart by-pass and didn't feel any strain when I drove recently - at least compared to my 1973 VW Camper! |
Cam Cunningham |
As I said in the beginning, contraversial! |
Graeme Williams |
Graeme I'm a bit interested in your take on this unit I have thought for a while now that if one of these units were fitted to an A or B motorkana car along with a one turn lock to lock quick rack do you think--I'm asking for your respected opinion ---do you think there would be enough adjustment in the assistance level to make it light enough with the geared up steering so it could be steered easily one handed from lock to lock easily and quickly I ran a quicky in my Midget and it was great-a tiddle heavy but good---Tried one in a B and it was um heavy Interested in your thoughts on this Thanks and Merry Christmas willy |
William Revit |
I suppose I am biased a little towards power steering because I have a smaller than standard sports steering wheel which does make the slow speed steering effort much greater. Colyn |
Colyn Firth |
I have not found the MGA steering to be heavy. It is no heavier than the power steering in my modern car. Assuming that you have hypoid oil in the rack and not grease you should carry out all the adjustments as described in the Workshop Manual. In particular the setting of the shims in the two rack dampers and ensure that the shims between the rack and the chassis member are correct (normally rivetted in place at the factory). The most important thing is to carry out the steering column alignment as described. A badly aligned column puts a load on the universal joint and is the most common reason for heavy steering. Mick |
M F Anderson |
The MGA is light and easy to drive. Try reverse parking an E Type. |
A Bowie |
I put on a 14 inch wheel after driving Barry Gannon's car out in Melbourne. It gives a wonderful feel to the handling, as if the car is talking to you. I just accept the very low speed heaviness as part of the trade-off. Nothing against power steering as such, but I just think you lose some of those old car driving charms. Might as well go and buy a Mazda MX5. Steve |
Steve Gyles |
Graeme, have you driven a few A's besides your own recently - it is great way to check everything is okay on the home front. Mike |
Mike Ellsmore |
An interesting year-end discussion. I met the EZ man at Goodwood Revival, where he had the MGA set-up on show. My A steering is lighter than the BGT I had a few years ago; I owned both at the same time, so had a clear comparison. My wife finds the A quite heavy, in comparison with the modern stuff (although she drove our first two As very happily, back in the 70s). I thought about the EZ system, and then wondered whether I really wanted to lose driving rights.... Shane |
Shanerj |
Steve, my car, like yours, is definitely not as it originally came out of Abingdon. Between them there are lots of non-standard bits fitted to them. Both have:- 18V motor Ford gearbox Electronic rev counters Alternators Both originally LHD Non original wheels etc Yours has:- Sports screen Boot lock Disc brakes 3.9 diff ? Etc Mine has:- Weber DCOE Lowered suspension No bumpers Electronic ign Electric fans Etc So both are a quite a distance away from being std. The RHD conversion alone has left lots of extra holes on my car and so I would not be worried about adding a couple more holes to fit the power steering. Also on the subject of the Mazda MX5/Miata, I once was offered the chance to drive an early example. However, when I got into the car I found that even at only 6ft 1" tall, the standard steering wheel in it completely prevented me from operating the clutch pedal. So if I wanted a MX5 I would probably have to start modifying it to make it fit me😁! IMHO, adding power steering is a bit like adding a gearbox with an over driven 5th gear. Both not absolutely necessary but both can make driving the car an even more pleasant experience. If your car has a 5th gear, you don't have to use it if you don't want to, and it's the same with the EZ pwr steering. So if you feel like having an "As Abingdon intended" day 😁, you just leave it switched off and don't use 5th gear!😁 Colyn Apologies for longwinded response, it's the "cold turkey" effect after Christmas and we have run out of minced pies! |
Colyn Firth |
Graeme Like you, I have a frogeye as well as my A. So I understand exactly what you are saying. The difference around town is vast. I would be very interested to hear how you get on. Good Luck, Graham |
Graham V |
Dominic. Interested in your steer (!) on Easysteer. Contacted them today and very responsive. An order of magnitude difference in price compared with EZ. Have you any other experience to offer? Just concerned there could be a catch. Bruce. |
B Mayo |
A few comments if I may: Colyn: there are no additional holes needed to fit the EZ system. If it were removed you would never know it had been fitted. Graham V: thank you! William: I am currently running the assistance setting at about "half way". Bear with me and I'll try and get something more technical for you if I can. Easysteer: No experience of them but comparing presentation and information on websites, I would have more confidence in EZ Steering. It looks a better engineered unit too. General comment about Bs. The caster angle on Bs is recognised as being overly steep at 8 deg. THere are kits to reduce the angle to about 3 deg by inserting tapered wedges under the front subframe. THe A is I believe 3 deg to start with. The steering on my A is totally free with the wheels of the ground (but in their normal position vertically) so I am confident nothing is binding. I do have wider tyres than standard and a smaller steering wheel. My technique on negotiating roundabouts was to use the police method of keeping the hands positioned on each side of the wheel. If I took one hand over the top, I found it difficult to tighten up (manageable but harder work). Bear in mind too that whereas everyone talks about getting further away from the clutch pedal, I have put a 2" spacer to bring it towards me.I do put the seat right back (and made it rake more) but I suspect most A drivers are a bit taller and stronger than me! I have to say the previous owner, who I have known for years, didn't feel is was over-heavy (especially as he now has a Healey 3000) and refers to me a "whimp" lol. AS far as maintain the originality of the olders car in their driving experience, I assume items like servo, higher rated headlamps, electronic ignition will be eschewed! Just an opinion! Said it was controversial! |
Graeme Williams |
Graeme....your ez experience is interesting. I have wider tyres and a small Nardi steering wheel.(..if I fit a larger one I can't move my left leg to cjhange gear ..I have to bum shuffle across the seat ) ....and whilst great on the road it is a pig to turn at slow speed ..even for a near dead 72 yr old . Getting more cranky and stiffer as the years pass and need every assistance .....but manage without a commode so far . Queries... Did you fit yourself? Approx cost ? Do you lose any noticeable road feel .....in operation.? ........turned down ? Dominic....do you know anyone who has fitted the system you mentioned ....? |
Neil Ferguson |
He seems to get great reviews elsewhere so it would be good if someone local could let him take some meausurements. I too talked to the guy at Goodwood and he said that the MGA Kit was the easiest of all to make and fit. The technology is by no means exotic, so I am sure that they are both pretty much on the same basis. The one in Goodwood stuffs the steering drive up behind the Tacho and speedo, and used the standard steering column mounts to attach to the car. The clamps probably need welding to the outer tube to prevent it twisting when mounted, and i would expect that the brackets to the chassis would need to be a bit more robust to absorb the twisting forces created by the stepping motor. Bruce, are you interested to look further into this and report back? |
Dominic Clancy |
Dominic, and others. The Easysteer guy is Rick and unfortunately is in Bolton, several hundred miles from me in Shoreham by Sea. Quick to reply by email, he says the MGA unit is £700 fitted. Some huge difference to EZ price! Not sure I can do more investigation without seeing an example of each fitted. Anyone got an Easysteer fitted? |
B Mayo |
Graham Are you happy to divulge price for us? Bruce. |
B Mayo |
Neil: I did fit it myself. anyone who is able to do the regular sort of jobs on a classic should be able to fit it. Fitting requires the removal of the existing column and the replacement with a new column with the drive motor having been factory fitted. The existing column clamps should be sufficient to stop the outer part of the column rotating. A control box needs to be mounted in the tunnel, connecting cables with the motor and two power supplies connected. No welding or fabrication is needed. It isn't a cheap unit - about £1600 delivered. THe manufacturers are in Holland and have an informative website (http://www.ezpowersteering.nl/language/23/2/Home.html). They make units for a wide range of classics including Astons and Jaguars. There is a uk agent in Devon who can do the fitting if needed. The level of assistance is easily adjustable and is designed to taper off at speed. So far I have noticed no adverse effects to driving "feel" but i need to have driven the car more to really make a judgment. I just notice how easier winding roads and roundabouts have become! |
Graeme Williams |
I am really glad to hear that some of you feel the MGA steers a bit heavy. When I got mine on the road, I felt something was wrong, having been used to p/s for so long, and not having driven an A for 45 years. But now I am happy with it and really used to "aiming" the car along the curves. And I now know this is normal. Thanks for the input! |
Art Pearse |
Graham Thanks for a very clear description. Just a final question please - you mention that the assistance is not only adjustable (by potentiometer) but also tapers off at speed. How is that achieved? I thought the assistance was simply a fixed amount. To be speed dependent it would presumably need some form of speed transducer connected to the controller to achieve tapering off. Is that what you have or have I misunderstood? Bruce. |
B Mayo |
I suspect that if anybody who thinks their MGA steering is heavy, could drive their car with the original type crossply tires, they might revise their opinion. I'm not advocating getting rid of our radials, just pointing out that the "problem" you are experiencing may not be related to any defect in the car itself. Modern tires are great but they do give a different feel. -Del |
D Rawlins |
We all would draw a line in a different place. Whilst there are those who are proud to have created something ostentatiously different but loosely based on the MGA, many of us try to keep modifications within 'the spirit' as we see it - and take solace from the refrain that whatever 'it' may be, 'it' is always reversible (as if ... ). A challenge which always I set myself on MG / classic car meets is to find two 'original' MGAs (or TDs or TFs or any others) which are, actually, the same. The marque sprang from a desire to be different, appealed to those who wanted to be able to be different, and continues so to deliver in the hands of those who respect the bounds of those traditions (as well as those who emphatically do not in order to rise to a challenge and to give us something to pontificate about). I see no need for PAS, but informed debate and research as to how best to deliver the same for those who might aspire must be all to the good. Thanks, Graeme, for raising the topic which was new to me. David |
D Smith |
Bruce: it adapts and adjusts to the torque needed. There is no speed feed back and what is in the black box I don't know. It has to be more involved than just offering a set torque (albeit adjusted by the knob) as when the steering lightens up at speed the result would be heading towards zero effort. That isn't the case. I suspect the motor and the feedback control is quite complex, not just a motor and a gear. |
Graeme Williams |
Controversial - touchy subject ? These cars belong on the road - with all the modern traffic and anything which makes them easier and safer to drive (for longer) is very good news imho. Graeme, Dominic VMT for the info R |
Roger Walker |
I'll take a guess at the control. Maybe the torque sensor is on the in put shaft. Think of it as a fixed input torque requirement to actuate the power assist, and the electric motor does whatever is required to move the output on demand. Therefore always the same input torque regardless of ground speed, and no speed sensor required. Turning the adjustment knob to change assist amount results in change of input torque requirement for power assist actuation. Less assist equals more input torque, meaning better road feel. It can be advertised as speed sensitive, because it will have higher output torque at lower speed, and lower output torque at higher speed. (Just a guess). Isn't that what we're really after, always the same torque requirement for the steering wheel? I suppose you get the same effect in hydraulic power steering where the control is a rotary hydraulic valve. Feedback depends on strength of the centering spring in the rotary valve. The common complaint is too much power assist, result of too weak spring in the valve, resulting in too little feedback at all speeds. |
Barney Gaylord |
I would think you've got it Barney! Had come to the same conclusion myself. When EZ claim "speed sensitive" assistance on an old car with no speed transducer to provide the necessary speed feedback input signal to the controller, it could only be achieved by using a constant input torque setting in the controller to mimic speed sensitivity. So, whatever the car's speed, the driver will feel a constant torque at the steering wheel, with the overall setting level set by potentiometer. Should be fine. |
B Mayo |
I'm thinking they might mean steering wheel movement speed If you ripped it around fast you would get more assistance than hardly or not moving it Maybe willy |
William Revit |
I spent the middle of the night summizing how the unit may work, although it sounds like Barney had the same sleepless night the night before! I think the column shaft will have a coupling on the steering wheel side of the motor. This coupling will have a strain device built in to measure the torque being applied to turn the wheel and this figure is fed into the control system. The potentiometer adjusts the reference setting for the value of this torque to activate the motor. Lets say it's set to 50 units. At slow speed the steering is heavy so as the driver puts in the effort, the coupling registers 50 and starts to go over. This triggers the motor which by putting in it's own effort starts to reduce the driver torque and holds the setting at 50. At higher speeds the effort required to turn reduces and at a certain point. depending on speed, rate of turn etc, may only read 40 at the coupling. This is below the trigger point and so the motor doesn't activate. The potentiometer adjusts the set value (50 in this example) and so controls when the motor kicks in and ultimately the maximum effort expected of the driver. This ties up with my observation when driving. At speed I don't notice any difference |
Graeme Williams |
Willy R: I thought I could find a spring balance to get a rough torque measurement but to no avail. I have put in more road miles now and find everything "feels" right with the control turned down to about 1/3. This leaves the general feel at speed unaffected but still makes a very significant contribution on tight slow turns and roundabouts. Exactly where it's required. From the point of your question, there is still a lot of assistance available so I would imagine that it ought to cope with much heavier steering. Perhaps the manufacturer could give you the max torque that the motor can generate. It's a bit expensive to buy on the off-chance! |
Graeme Williams |
Graeme..I think your explanation is spot on...it sounds a very good unit . Many thanks for your posts. |
Neil Ferguson |
Thanks Graeme |
William Revit |
This thread was discussed between 26/12/2016 and 06/01/2017
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