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MG MGA - Silicone Fluid - The Truth?
| I have found another interesting article in a 1999 copy of Safety Fast that I am converting to electronic media for the MGCC. The article covers most, and possibly more, of the silicone fluid issues we have previously discussed, but it wraps it all up in one article. I had a look on Barney's site and did not see it there - that is not to say it is not there, just that I could not find it. I have put a copy on my site for your perusal but will remove it if, indeed, Barney has a copy. http://www.tinyurls.co.uk/K18312 Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| A very interesting article Steve. I run on silicone fluid and so far I have no complaints whatsoever. It's been in the car ever since I bought it five years ago. Frank |
| F Camilleri |
| Frank Neither have I. Like you, I found the article most interesting in that it covered all the issues we have previously discussed. It's good to have it all in one place. I think the secret is the ABSOLUTE cleansing of any previous fluids. I totally replaced my hydraulic system during the rebuild 14 years ago and have never had a problem that I can attribute to silicone fluid. Yes, I have had MC problems during the period but I am convinced they were nothing whatsoever to do with the type of fluid, just the poor build quality of the MC; now resolved with a top of the range, well engineered product. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| The document posted by Steve Gyles may be a copyright infringement, although he may have some inside rights to the document by way of serving as a representative for MGCC. What does "converting to electronic media for the MGCC" mean? Is this ultimately to be posted in the public domain, or will it remain under copyright and reserved for access to members only? If MGCC does not want to post it on their own web site in public domain, then I wouldn't do it either. If it is posted in public domain I might make a link to it, but no sense duplicating the document on multiple web sites (unless MGCC might ask me to do it). I do have a SINGLE web page on brake fluid in general here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/hydraulics/ht115.htm Otherwise I prefer to stay away from the religious wars. As related to our humble LBCs, the truth is simple to summarized. All brake fluids (DOT3, DOT4, DOT5) work. Silicone fluid may be more expensive, but is likely to save money through reduced maintenance expense, and it does not eat paint. That last point alone may be the most important feature for anyone with a car with nice paint. There are some special application racing brake fluids (not DOT rated) that are not suitable for any daily driver car. Anyone who insists that your life is in danger by use of any particular brake fluid (in your LBC) is an idiot, and I make no apology for that classification. I have no intention of re-posting large volumes of text on the extensive (and generally irrelevant) arguments over brake fluids. |
| Barney Gaylord |
| Barney Yes, it will be available on the MGCC website, along with many dozens, hundreds even, of other articles we are currently converting from old hard copy to web page format - electronic media. That said, I am not sure whether it will be password protected or, if so, whether you need to be an MGCC member to have a password. I have been told that the occasional reproduction is ok, provided it is not for commercial gain and provided that acknowledgement is duly made. I guess much the same applies to your Bonneville A article? The article in question will not remain on my site and will be removed as soon as the material is sent to the MGCC for their website in the next couple of days. Cheers Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Spot on. I have a link to the Bonneville "A" article on my web site, but the article is actually in public domain on the mgcars.org server. For all I know, a link to anything on the internet in the public domain is legitimate, as long as the resulting display is not made to look like part of someone else's web page. If anyone might object and ask me not to link to their web page, I would likely comply (although I don't think it is a legal obligation). I am equally happy for anyone in the world to make a link to one of my web pages. In nearly 13 years I have never encountered a case when I would ask someone not to make such a link. |
| Barney Gaylord |
| Steve, please proff-read the aritcle. The character recognition isn't perfect. Are all DOT 5 fluids silicone? According to google 5.1 is glycol based/ dan |
| Dan Smithers |
| Thanks Dan. I have 26 technical documents from 1999 to check through before I send them to the MGCC. I picked up hundreds of OCR errors in the first draft. Seems I have much to do! Things we do for the love of the breed and all for free! I got 'volunteered' for this work when I commented on this BBS early this year that an excellent hard copy 'Safety Fast' article on tyres was not available on the MGCC website. Since the MGCC employs very few full time staff, the official response was work overload. Seems I am now one of the many willing volunteers. Want a proof reading job? Steve PS. Are you just round the corner from me? |
| Steve Gyles |
| Dan, you are right DOT5 and DOT5.1 are not the same and not compatible. But all DOT5 fluids are silicone based. DOT5.1 is a high performance fluid compatible with DOT3 and DOT4, but should not normally be mixed as the performance will be reduced. Citroen specify that mineral oil (Citroen LHM) be used in certain models and Rolls Royce have a specific fluid RR363 made just for some of their models (DOT4 and castor oil will work ok apparently). These fluids should never be mixed with or used in any other brake system. Good old Google! |
| Neil McGurk |
| Actually Dan, you raise an interesting thought on proof reading (OCR or otherwise) previously printed (copyright) documents. While your comment is probably valid (not had another read of the document yet), it is possible that some of what you have read is identical to the original article. I was tasked with converting the hard copy to web pages. Was I to convert verbatim, as per copyright, or was I to make corrections? You would be amazed at the errors I picked up (some of them I would not have noticed had it not have been for the Microsoft editor underlining in red). So, how have I proceeded? I will admit to making the occasional spelling correction to such words as carburettor (carburretor, carburrettor, carburretter, carburetter, carburreter). I have also reworded references to pictures and diagrams where the original says, for example, see next page. I have made these references applicable to the web page layout. But I have refrained from altering sentence construction and the use of commas - probably the most misused of all punctuation marks. I guess if a document is copyrighted it should come with warts and all, but it is so tempting to change! Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Steve, Dan is probably referring to DOTS in para 4, which should probably be DOT5. Can you give the OK to us possibly putting this on the NAMGAR web site, along with other brake fluid related articles, or should we contact MGCC directly? Peter and Anne Tilbury, NAMGAR Internet Coordinators. |
| P. Tilbury |
| Peter Leave it with me. I will speak with them and come back. Cheers Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Peter I have just had a reply from the MGCC. They are delighted for you to use the article. I will email you the original copy in PDF and a copy of my web page translation. They suggested an acknowledgement along the following lines: Kindly supplied by MG Car Club UK and taken from the organisation’s SafetyFast! magazine. Cheers Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Steve, yes it is the mystery DOTS fluid. Also the Royal Mail adapted the fluid. Probably adopted. The other end of the county - near Epsom dan |
| Dan Smithers |
| Dan Thanks. Actually those were all as originally printed, including the DOTS! I found an enormous number of errors in many of the articles. |
| Steve Gyles |
| Perhaps this posting will be an update of sorts to this thread. While going through some recent old issues of Safety Fast I found another article on brake fluids which also discusses the DOT3 vs DOT4 vs DOT5 debate. Its well written, and may contain updated information from the 1999 Safety Fast article referenced by Steve in the initial post. This can be found in the March 2009 edition of Safety Fast. George |
| G Goeppner |
| I wasnt sure if my car had silicone brake fluid until a month or so ago when I noticed a very slight weep of fluid dripping from the master cylinder pushrods onto the bulkhead. At first I thought that the seals were at fault but the leak stopped as soon as I tightened up the mastercylinder front cover. How did I know that I have DOT 4 standard brake fluid? By the crinkle finish look of the new paint on the bulkhead beneath! Its heartbreaking isnt it! Im going to have to repaint it sometime but is there anything I can do to neutralise the corrosive effect of brake fluid until I can repaint? Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Colyn, you must have a failing seal if you have got fluid leaking there. There shouldn't be any fluid behind the front cover. |
| Lindsay Sampford |
| Colyn Lindsay is absolutely correct. The front cover is for keeping crap out, not for sealing oil in. The new MC I bought 12 years ago always weeped. You may remember my MC saga of recent times gone by which resulted in my eventual purchase of a 'decent' MC by AP Caro, albeit at double the price of Ebay MCs. The result is a dry front end and brakes that release properly. What price for respraying the bulkhead? Probably more than paying extra for a good quality MC. Boy, am I glad I have always used silicone fluid. Quite apart from the front end leak that you have now suffered, I have also had so many incidents with fluid spillages. My best one was when using Eezibleed. I forgot to disconnect the pressure supply from the tyre before unscrewing the MC pressure cap. I ended up with fluid being blasted all over the bulkhead and engine compartment. I hate to think what would have happened with the standard stuff! Cheers Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Colyn, I think you should strip the whole car down so that you can respray the bulkhead properly!!! Boy am I glad I don't have to worry about such things, my under-bonnet area looks like crap anyway! |
| Lindsay Sampford |
| Colyn, to put a stop to corrosion on your bulkhead, wash off the area with soap and water, using an airline, dry it off, and, if you are not doing a repaint job for a while, spray some WD40. The latter will have to be wiped off and any trace of oil must naturally be removed prior to spraying. Frank |
| F Camilleri |
| Well thanks for the comments, looks like I will be putting a new (better quality) master cylinder on my Christmas list and yet another item on my Urgent To-Do List. The strange thing is that the brake pedal is really solid and the brakes are superb. Maybe I should fit a stainless steel DOT 4 "catch tank" under the M/S and just live with it! :.) Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Colyn, you are only looking at a very slow seep of fluid over a period of time. When you put your foot on the brake pedal, the seal cups are forced out by the pressure to make the seal, but when the car sits idle, the cups relax a bit, and if they are worn or you have pitting on the bores, the fluid creeps past the seals and starts to fill the area in front of the seals behind the front plate. Your brakes would probably work OK for years like that, providing you kept topping up the reservoir. You may get away with a new set of seals if the bores are OK, it's worth a look before you shell out for a new MC. |
| Lindsay Sampford |
| Don't under any circumstances spray WD40 on your bulkhead once you clean it off as it contains silicone and you will have a devil of a job cleaning this off and getting the paint to adhere properly. |
| Iain MacKintosh |
This thread was discussed between 03/11/2010 and 27/11/2010
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