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MG MGA - Something in the Water?

Well Steve, I finally got around to fitting the yellow injection moulded radiator fan that we discussed on this board last year.
I drained the engine, removed the radiator which came out without any drama.
I removed the original metal fan ( it suprised me how heavy it is )and I took the oportunity to properly tighten the alternator fixing bolts and re set and secure the fan belt adjusting bolts which are almost impossible to reach with the fan fitted.
I also hosed the bugs off the rad and even cleaned inside the air duct behind the grill.

The new fan fitted fine, it is larger in diameter than the metal one (which I hope will make it more efficient)and it only just clears the metal fan cover on the back of the rad. Refitting the rad went so well I started to feel a little smug, I even used a little magnetic probe to recover one of the rad bolts that I had dropped down on top of the steering rack and also one of the hose clips that I knocked down into the drained fluid under the car.
I took a few pictures to show how the fan fits and then re filled with new antifreeze.

Thats when I spotted the fast leak bang in the centre in the of back of the rad! I couldnt believe it.
So off it all came again and now I am considering the best way to fix it.
We must use water from the same supply Steve, the type that dissolves all things MGA!

The cooling system on my car has always run fairly cool (175 degrees ) so I am a bit reluctant to have the rad re cored but I also dont want to do a poor repair.
Any suggestions?
Colyn



Colyn Firth

Fan removed, easy to access the alternator bolts and fan belt adj. Fan must have been painted red originally Steve.


Colyn Firth

New fan fitted, It must be at least 50% lighter than the metal one and an inch wider diameter.
I am hoping it will run a little quieter than the metal one.


Colyn Firth

Blimey Colyn! Put some wings on and you'll get it to fly!
Lindsay Sampford

Probing for the dropped bolt, smugly thinking that this was the only problem I would have!!



Colyn Firth

I suppose it does look a bit aeronautical.

I wonder how many revs I will have to use to get the car to hover?
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Colyn

Always great to see someone else's engine compartment. Spotted the stubs on the carbs.

I was trying to make sense of your bonnet channelling. Maybe it's just the light reflection, but it somehow looks different. Does it have a drain hole at the front?

Sorry, no idea about the water leak cure other than PX as I did with mine through Bob West. His are as close to original standard as you can get I believe. He gets his done through a local supplier so there are undoubtedly others who can supply similar. It's just a case of ensuring that the recorer understands the MGA radiator layout and does not try to install his own version.

Steve
Steve Gyles

All I can advise is I live near Scunny (N Lincs.) and I always get my radiators repaired/recored at our local secialist. They always do a great job and never had a problem. I do feel you are better off at a radiator specialist rather than an MG supplier. How south are you in South Yorks? or should I say east?
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Just one question Colyn; if your car runs fairly cool, why install a more efficient fan?

I also noticed the ventilation grilles in the inner wings and heat wrap on the manifold. Perhaps with all that you won't need a radiator!
Neil McGurk

Steve I think the bonnet channeling is pretty standard, I wondered about there being no drain hole at the front but I do tend to avoid the wet weather so it is not a big problem. I keep the car in an airchamber ( a big tent with fan ventilation ) which will dry the car completely overnight even if it is stored away wet through.
I need some more carb inlet ram pipes as the ones fitted are really loose on the carbs and rattle about a bit. I dont know if they help the performance very much but the air filters on them are much much easier to work on than the originals.

Bob, I am based 9 miles SE of Doncaster on the A19, not so far from the M62 so Im only 35min or so from Scu*thorpe. I would be grateful if you could let me have any info on your radiator specialist. (If you re-read your post you will notice that you missed the "p" out of specialist which gives the word a very different meaning! Made me chuckle.

Neil, my car is 50 years old this year and I will be 60 in a few months so, to celebrate both, I was planning to take the car on a trip into Europe in the Summer.
So the bigger fan was part of the preparations for this.
However, the plans have had to be put on hold for now until some family health problems have improved. But once things are sorted at least the car will be ready,

Thanks for your replies, I will let you know how things progress.
Colyn



Colyn Firth

Plastic fans are fine until you go into deep water crossing a ford, for example. Then the fan will buckle and cut into the rad tubes.
Be aware of this aspect.
Peter.
P. Tilbury

so you ARE going to fly accross the channel with it then Colyn!
Lindsay Sampford

I would imagine that as you hit this deep water the idea that it might bend your fan may well not be the first thing on your mind, although it sounds a novel way to dip your head lights....... sorry couldn't help it, Vin
Vin Rafter

At least it would make the dehumidifier Carcoon earn its keep.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Nice fan, I like it. Where did you get it from Colyn? I wonder if being larger in diameter it would fit inside my radiator shroud. Can you post the diameter of the blades please. I see you are travelling down to Europe in your A. Would you be coming as far as southern Italy? If you are you will be welcome to cross over to Malta for a short stay. How about it Colyn.

Frank
F Camilleri

Ok you have all caught me out! The real reason for the new "fan" is climate change. My garage was flooded out a couple of years ago in the Toll Bar floods (like Neil in Cumbria was recently) and the new plastic "propeller" is the first step in my bid to make my MGA amphibious!
It wont matter if the plastic fan hits the radiator as the engine will be underwater anyway and cooling wont be an issue.
There are a few bouyancy problems at present but my thinking is that if they could waterproof a Sherman tank for D Day???
Just a bit worried about keeping the car dry inside when I open the door!
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Bouyancy problems with an MGA? Surely there's enough wood in it to keep it afloat!
Lindsay Sampford

The sidescreen sockets in the doors could double up for the rowlocks (oarlocks).............

Steve
Steve Gyles

I am sure it will be fine Colyn, my MGA goes to France every year at least once, complete wife her in doors and 2 weeks worth of luggage. :) My keyboard is crap on my laptop and letters are frequently missed out.
Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo

Colyn

Searched the web. Seems it's happened before........

Steve


Steve Gyles

Oarlocks to you too Steve!

Great picture though, you really are good with your "Photoshop" program.

I would never have believed that I would find that my MGA being off the road could make me chuckle so much.

Thanks guys
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Sorry Frank, I just spotted your serious question in amongst all the other "supportive" and "helpful" suggestions!
I would love to be able to visit Malta as part of a European "Grand Tour" but I will probably have to retire first to have enough time to do it. It will definitely go on my "to do" list though.

I hope to have my radiator fixed by next week so I should be able to check the exact diameter of the fan for you and let you know in the next few days.
The fan only just clears the rear metal safety cover on the back of the radiator and so I would think it will run even closer to the fan shroud on your car.

It is looking likely that the pinhole leak can be soldered without losing any cooling capacity so I may as well try this first. (I will keep a close eye on the temperature gauge once the rad is refitted)
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Colyn

I am rubbish with Photoshop. It was a professional who did that front end shot last week. Like a lot of these programmes, one gets to a certain level of competence but never learns to get the maximum out of all the features. PowerPoint is my strongest from all the presentations I used to prepare and give at work.

Steve
Steve Gyles


Colyn: Is your alternator fan on backwards? If everything turns clockwise, it would seem the alternator vanes are turned in the wrong direction???
JM Morris

Same way as mine.

Steve
Steve Gyles

I never looked closely at the alternator fan before I fitted it Jack, I just left it the same way round that I got it.
I have now looked at it again and although it is possible to re fit it the other way round, it will still be "handed" the same wrong direction. It will also put the "scoop" part of the individual fan blades at the back and probably blow the air forwards even more!
Is the fan I have the correct type or is there another one that is "handed" the other way?

Thinking about it, I would bet that there is enough constant forced air through the alternator to cool it from the radiator fan alone and it may not need its own fan. Unlike the MGA, cars today all have thermostatic electric fans and so their radiator fan only operates when the coolant overheats.
Could I do without the fan on the alternator? What do you all think?
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Alternators are cooled by sucking air from the back so it passes first over the diodes. The fan is actually an exhaust fan pulling air through the alternator.
Malcolm Asquith

Colyn

We had a discussion on this a while back. It is correct the way it is. I cannot remember the reason off hand, but there is something in the archives if you can find it. If not someone will remind us.

Steve
Steve Gyles

Thanks Malcolm, so the alternator fan is on the correct way round.
Its a shame really because, just for a moment there, I believed I had finally had a sensible and original idea!
Ah well, back to being my usual idiotic self!
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Nice fan. Is it a custom mould? or A MGB fan?

J
J Hambleton

Well I have the radiator back and fitted, it seems really easy now that I have removed and fitted it so many times in one session. I only had to use the magnetic probe the once after dropping one of the radiator fixing bolts (again ) so it was going fairly smoothly!
The fan fits ok with enough clearance under the "finger" guard.
I connected the top and bottom hoses, I had forgotten just how awkward it is to connect the hose clip, it took me 20 mins to do this compares to 5 to fit the rad.
So I filled up with more new antifreeze and water, no leaks so far and then I decided to start up the engine.
I had changed the oil filter and changed the oil to a 20-50 complete with wear inhibitors now that the engine has completed 2000 miles or so.(I had already changed it a few times during those 2000 miles in case anyone is worried)
So I decided to turn the engine over without choke to prime the oil filter etc, my car nearly always needs the choke to start from cold except in really hot weather.
I pressed the starter button, the engine turned fine, not really firing much without choke.
I was going to pull the choke when the oil pressure gauge moved off the stop.
But it didnt!
So I got out of the car, leaned over the engine but then noticed something black creaping around my trainers!
The new oil filter that a friend gave for me complete with a promise that "it is definitely the correct filter!" was pouring oil around its seal! ( the worst thing is that he gave me 3 of them!)

So then it was a matter of using up most of my best car cover cloths to soak up the spreading puddle and pushing the car back into the garage in combination with a few very choice words. (Camera never got out of its case)

So it will be a week or so before I can attempt 3rd time lucky and try put it back together again, once I go to Bob Wests and buy the correct filter.
( Should have gone to MG Savers!)

The really annoying thing is that the car was perfectly ok before I started this!

Maybe this thread should have been titled "What NOT to do to your MGA"

Will let you all know how (or if ever) this saga finishes
Colyn

(by the way, to answer the questions, the fan came from NTG services on line. Im sure it will be ok so long as you dont ask me to fit it for you)
Colyn Firth

Finally fixed it, the radiator works fine with no leaks and I have oil pressure without oil pouring all over the place.
The new fan quite suprised me, it is approx 2 inches larger in diameter and the fan blades are much more efficient shape than the metal one.
I had my head down under the bonnet checking out the fan blades clearance from the fan cover on the top of the radiator. I blipped the throttle and the fan blew my baseball cap off! It was a little like putting my head under a toilet hand dryer!

I gave the car an enjoyable run today on the MGCC S Yorks Drive-it Day run and I noticed that the running temperature has dropped by 10 degrees F, from 175 degrees before to 165 degrees now.
The only downside is a noticeable increase in fan noise especially at higher revs which I suppose is to be expected.

So if you need increased cooling the fan is a good investment, but if you are looking to reduce noise levels, maybe not.

I have decided to leave the fan on over summer and then maybe look to try something else, maybe an electric fan or I still quite like the idea of a viscous coupled fan.
(couple of pics to show the fan in action (the baseball cap is out of picture)
Colyn





Colyn Firth

Another pic of fan running.
Colyn


Colyn Firth

"It was a little like putting my head under a toilet hand dryer!"

I don't think I've ever put my head under a toilet hand dryer (lol)

Though there have probably been a few nights when it might have happened!
Roger T

Never actually put my head under a toilet hand dryer, not that I can remember, although I was a student once so maybe I did but somehow the memory has been erased!

Maybe I can now fit the engine bay with a hot and cold water supply, a minature wash basin and a soap dispenser to complete the new fan installation.

Colyn
Colyn Firth

Sounds like you need one of those signs they have on the front of jet engines. Hope no-one gets too close to the front of the car when it's running!
Neil McGurk

I was beginning to wonder where the cat had gone!
(only joking)

Maybe Steve (in Lancs) or Frank (in Malta) will have a spare suitably worded sign hanging up in the back of their garages?
Colyn Firth

OK, this is way off topic, but since you brought up the cat....
When I was a youth my Grandmother left her cat with us when she went on holiday (vacation, here in the States). We were leaving for Church. When my Dad started the car there was this awful thump and howling. The cat went running from under the car. When we finally captured him he had a cut paw and was missing a large strip of fur from his back. A check under the hood (bonnet) revealed the missing fur! Apparently he had crawled up on the warm engine for a nap an then was caught by the fan belt when the engine started. He healed up just fine.

GTF
G T Foster


For maximum cooling and good luck, I put the healing waters from the Preselli Mtns in mine. :)
JM Morris

Colyn

Welcome to the under 165 club. Mine is doing that on a standard MGA fan. Dominic is the world leader well below 165 and has a radiator blind to get the temp up.

My aerodynamics knowledge is waning fast so I can comment only in general terms. I can see from your picture that your blades are very coarse (lots of pitch). This will give you the 'thrust' you are experiencing. What you should realise is you do not get something for nothing. You will have lost a bit of engine performance. Whether you notice this 'slight' loss is for you to tell us - perhaps mpg.

Not sure about the cats or heads down the loo, but when we were taxiing our fighter jets we sometimes used to open the canopies, put the windscreen rain clearance switch to 'on' (massive air blast up the windscreen), then put a kid leather gloved hand out into the airflow. Opening and closing the hand was very similar to the feel of a certain part of the female anatomy!

I can see a few chopped fingers during MGA servicing from now on!

Steve

Steve Gyles


Steve--in regards to similarities to the female anatomy, I have a friend who used to own an MGA who goes on and on about the feel of running your hand ("gently now"--his words) along the top of the door to the rear wing and in to the rear tonneau.

We're still on topic, right? :)
JM Morris

Steve, does Dominic fill the space in front of the radiator with "dry ice" like they do in Formula 1 to get the tempertature down below 165 F?
Or may be to combat the Swiss winters he has fitted central heating radiators into the door panels?

(Better not mention that idea to my wife as she would think it was a marvelous idea!)

Colyn
Colyn Firth

This thread was discussed between 22/03/2010 and 28/04/2010

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