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MG MGA - To B or not to B?

Sorry for the cheesy title but it sums up what I want to ask...

This winter I plan to do the 5 speed conversion on our A - a 1960 1600cc roadster. While the engine is also out I plan to take advantage of the opportunity for a full overhaul. I'd like to improve the performance at the same time and am undecided which route to pursue to achieve this?

My previous car was a BGT running a stage 2 1950cc engine, and the performance and noise were superb and I miss that somewhat. I realise the A is a different car and I'm not necessarily trying to achieve the same level of performance, but would like to move things up a notch from the standard 1600cc spec.

So, do I...

1. tune the standard engine

or

2. replace it with a 3 bearing 1800cc unit and tweak that, with the corresponding extra performance that will give?

I plan to keep the car 'forever' as we have waited a very long time to own an A and have no plans to move to anything else in future. I'm really torn though as part of me is keen to keep it as original as possible, but with a 5 speed conversion and a few other changes (alternator etc) its not exactly a standard car. On the one hand I'd love the extra performance but cant help thinking I would feel uncomfortable when people ask if the car is original and I explain an engine change.

I'm keen to hear the opinions of other owners and any and all viewpoints about keeping or changing the engine. So let me have it - would I be committing a cardinal sin in your eyes or is it such a common thing that I shouldnt worry at all?

Thanks

Damon
Damon

Hi Damon, I too have considered the same thing but have only got as far as sourcing the Sierra gearbox. I will probably just go for a refurb of the standard 1600 engine - but essentially because I don't want the extra performance - just the extra gear for quieter cruising on the motorway. As long as you keep the original engine & gearbox, any future keeper can return it to original if they so desire - so the originality isn't compromised - go for it - cheers Cam
Cam Cunningham

Damon

When I rebuilt my car I went through the same dilemma with the body colour. I fancied a non-original BRG. The best advice I got was from Bob West who asked me if I planned to sell the car or keep it. When I said the latter, he said to paint it in the colour scheme that gave me the most pleasure.

I think the same can be said with your planned modifications - do what gives you the most pleasure as the driver/owner. Does it really matter what other people say?

With my 1500 1958 car I now have a host of non standard bits and I have yet to have adverse comments from viewers. The mods include the 5-bearing 1800, 5-speed box, 3.9 diff, electronic tacho, alternator, disc brakes, wire wheels, sports windscreen, small steering wheel, BRG paint and magnolia trim. I would not change any of it and, unless the viewer is an MGA anorak, it still looks 'original' to the casual eye. I keep all the old bits so I could, if I happened to go senile, demodify it back to original.

I think the beauty of the MG breed is that the cars have always been modified. I am sure that is what Cecil Kimber always encouraged. They were and still are inexpensive cars for the ordinary sporty driver to adapt to his desires, be it ordinary road use, trials, rallying or racing.

Cheers

Steve
Steve Gyles

thanks for the comments guys - perhaps not quite what I was expecting so far, so good to get more views!

I spoke with Bob West recently, and I'll most likely be getting him to do the rebuild as well whichever option I go for.

Any other opinions?
Damon

Damon

I could not comment on the 1600 as I have never driven one, just the 1500. I absolutely love the 5 bearing 1800, the only drawback being the need to go down the Smiths electronic tacho route (can be replaced with Jaegar face with a bit of fiddling). That engine and the 5-speed box transforms the car. I also put the 3.9 diff in because of the amount of motorway driving I was doing. Having now retired and restricted myself to the winding Surrey Hills roads I venture to suggest that it is now a tadge too highly geared.

You may have trouble sourcing a 3-bearing 1800. You don't see too many coming up for sale these days. The 5-bearings are in plentiful supply. Does the 3-bearing engine still have the scroll rear oil seal? Might be worth the 5-bearing route to get a 'dry' garage floor.

Steve
Steve Gyles

thanks Steve - more good feedback.

I loved my '69 BGT with the tuned 5 bearing engine, and had a chance to drive it again this week, and the torque and exhaust note got me wandering all over again after initially deciding to go with the original lump. I do have a source for the 3 bearing but dont know about the oil seal on those?
Damon

My MGA is not a happy freeway car, but I avoid the issue by not driving on freeways unless absolutely necessary. I've even taken to buying old maps of Washington from the 1940s and 1950s to locate the original 2-lane highways. It's cheaper AND more original than a modern transmission! And also more fun to drive.
David Breneman

David, I was waiting to see if anyone else felt the same way as me! I guess, when it comes down to it, it depends what you want out of your MGA. Whether you want to drive a '50s shaped car with close to modern performance and comforts, or step into another era every time you get into your MGA. Personally, I prefer the latter and, like you David, seek out those old forgotten roads that these cars were designed for. Strange thing is, though many MGAs seem to have had these performance upgrades, my bog-standard 1500 has never been overtaken by one of them yet!
Lindsay Sampford

Damon

I'm just running in my rebuilt 1600 with 5 speed box and engine done by Bob West's man. I'm in Oxford if you want to see what its like.

John
John Francis

Liondsay has never been overtaken because his roads are too narrow and winding! You often hear the BBC2 road traffic reports in Cambridgeshire reporting massive tail backs. Guess who is at the head of the queue!

All in fun

Steve
Steve Gyles

Aint me Steve, I avoid the A14 like the plague! You won't see me on the A1 either, maybe that's why I don't see any other MGAs, I prefer to leave the rat-race when driving my A.
Lindsay Sampford

thanks all - I expected a range of opinions and was after the thoughts of everyone to help me decide!

John - that is a very kind offer and one I'd love to take you up on if you really dont mind. I'm not that far from Oxford so it would be perfect and I'd really like to see what its like. I cant see a way to message privately on here so if you are able to email me on the address below and make contact then I can get back in touch and sort something out. Thanks again.
damon.largent@kenblanchard.com
Damon

Having had a 1500, 1600, 1622 and then 1622 SC engine in my A, I'd also suggest just supercharging what you already have, using a Moss unit.

I know that anyone with a standard A loves driving mine.... New engine is due here on Tuesday next week.
dominic clancy

Damon,

You are likely to get as many opinions as people you ask. The only opinion that matters is yours and the only one who can decide is you. You need to ask yourself what YOU want from and for YOUR car.

I went through similar feelings when I was thinking about a 5 speed gearbox, then about an 1800. After much sole searching I decided that I want my car to be fun and enjoyable to drive while, as much as possible, retaining it's original outward appearance and MG 'spirit'. To that end, I retained the original gear shift knob on my five speed. When swapping to the 18GB engine that is now in my car, I used all of the original ancilliary parts so that, to all but the most trained eye, it still looks original. The 5 main engine does not have a mechanical tach drive and some folks who've swapped engines are using early MGB electronic tachs. In order to keep the original look, I had my original mechanical tach retrofitted with electronic internals.

As to answering the "Is it all original" question, my normal response is "Yes...mostly". That seems to satisfy most people. As for keeping the old parts in case someone ever wants to put it back to original...I suppose it doesn't hurt to keep the original parts if you have space to store them. However, I know I'll never undo these changes to my car. I think the truth is that if make such changes to your car, a future prospective buyer who wants an "original" car is probably going to buy one that's already original rather than buying yours. To him, your car would be less valueable with these changes, but to someone who wants from their MGA something similar to what you want, your car will be more valueable.
Andy Bounsall

I hadnt thought of supercharging it, although had read a little about the Judson units on some excellent threads here. That would be quite an interesting project.

Can anyone tell me if there is any difference in the delivery of power in a supercharged engine versus a slightly tuned larger capacity engine? I havent ever driven a S/C car before sadly...
Damon

Damon,
I just replaced my worn out 1500 engine with a 3 main 1800 back in April. I absolutely love it. It has an enjoyable increase in horsepower. I remember driving it home from the shop with a huge smile on my face. It also has a little deeper growl to it. It is still distinctly MG as well.
If you are even considering it, I'd recommend it. It looks the same sitting in the engine bay, but it is so much more roadworthy. I've driven the car very hard and fast all summer with no complaints. I like the sound of it at 70mph, and I can keep up with interstate traffic. Not that I want to drive the interstate in it, mind you, but it gets me to farther twisty two lane roads faster.
I also saved the original engine, just in case. However, I don't think I'll ever put it back in under my ownership.
As for someone who might give you a hard time about replacing the engine, they should be happy that you are maintaining and driving it. After all, in my opinion that is what this hobby is about (at least to me...)
As for the five main engine, I believe Nisonger Instruments will convert your original tach to work with it. So that shouldn't be a concern either if you want to go that route.
Good Luck!
James Hurm

Damon,
One word of caution I would suggest is to have the 5 speed tranny looked over very carefully. I purchased one and found the second gear synchro is in need of replacement and the fifth gear is noisy under compression. Of course I only found this out after the tranny was installed.

Ray
Ray Ammeter

I thought more people might be on the side of originality, so its interesting to see more of a voice for changing than I expected. Thats reassuring...
Damon

Damon,
I replaced my 1500 with a 1600 40 years ago when no one thought that an MGA would ever be a valuable classic. So I didn't think twice when an 1800 5-main engine presented itself a few years ago. I'm far from finished with the car, but I have driven it a little, and I'm very happy with the modification. I kinda wish I had gone with a 5-speed as well.

Ken
k v morton

Damon
I had a similar dilema prior to purchasing my MGA some 3 years ago to replace my 1947 TC .
I had decided that I wanted an A with 5 speed and tuned 1800 engine (as was at that time being restored and sold by Oselli for around £26000 )as I was planning to use the A regularly and required one to be used on todays roads with a very good performance and reliability.
When I eventualy found my car a 1961 MK 2 Coupe I found that the rebuilt and mildly tuned 1622 original engine gave more than adequate performance especially with the 4.1 diff.however I did decide to fit the 5 speed gearbox and have been delighted with the result. I have since done some 10000 miles including a rally round Scotland and can easily cruise well over the legal limit on motorways often surprising modern drivers!!.We choose the A over the BMW for most of our pleasure motoring all year round (Snow & salt excepting)I have fitted a number of additions such as HaZard lights,headlamp Flasher, electric Screenwash Electronic ignition for safety requirements plus additional insulation to cut down the heat in summer. All mods can be restored to standard if required as I have kept all the original parts.
Paul
P D Camp

Damon, my car is set up with a mildly tuned 3 bearing 1900 MGB engine, a 5 speed gearbox with a std 4.3 diff. It also has uprated, lowered suspension with an anti-roll bar. It goes and sounds really well and is great fun to drive along country lanes.

The only downside is that the hard ride and the really loud exhaust noise can be a little tiring on longer motorway journeys. But as I only do a few of those each year I can live with these.
(And so far I havent had any complaints from irate MGB owners about stealing an engine from one of their cars!)

If like Paul you go the tuned 1600 mkI or 1622 MkII route you will still love the way the car drives ( I have owned one of each of those in the past)
But I can only recommend the tuned MGB engine/5 speed to you, the car is still an MGA but even better!

I may just explore the possibility of fitting a 4.1 diff in the future to make the car a little more long legged but it isnt a priority for me.
The 5 main bearing engine can apparently be tuned much further and doesnt drip oil like a 3 bearing does.

All the mods to my car can be simply reversed if the next owner wishes, but I love it as it is.

If you plan to use the car for long distance tours and need a more comfortable ride etc, I would advise you not to lower the ride height like mine but definitely fit a front anti-rollbar as it improves the car greatly.

Best of luck with your car

Colyn
Colyn Firth

Lindsay Sampford writes: "Whether you want to drive a '50s shaped car with close to modern performance and comforts, or step into another era every time you get into your MGA. Personally, I prefer the latter..."

I'm in complete agreement. I know this is a religious issue here, so I'm not saying this to win any "converts", just to explain myself. I consider a classic car to be a time machine of sorts. It takes you back to another age, when motoring was a much more primitive, mechanical experience than it is today. And with a classic sports car, it takes you back to an age when there was joy in using a mechanism that seemed to have a soul. The car didn't isolate you from the mechanics of moving down the road; the car involved you completely in the process of that movement. You became one with the machine in addressing the road. The machine does not serve as a system for isolating you from the road. I've said several times here, "If you want a Miata, buy a Miata." Sorry if that sentiment offends anyone. But it's a minor thing to take offense at. Lots of things offend me every day, but I get over it pretty quickly. Especially when I'm able to jump into a machine that quickly transports me away to another time and place. Best wishes to everyone.
David Breneman

BTW, if it's any consolation to the modernizers, my car has a 5-main MGB engine in it. A PO put it in and pitched the original engine. So I'm not the rock-ribbed purist I may seem. I just don't want to make matters worse. :-)
David Breneman

Colyn - thanks for your view. I love the handling of the car currently so apart from an ARB probably wouldnt change anything.

David - I agree with your sentiments about the time machine experience. I have a new convertible and love it for what it is AND just love stepping into the A (and my previous B's) for the reasons you give. Given the factory published how to tune these engines from new I think that also fits with the historic experience as well :-)

Thanks again everyone that has contributed as all these views and experiences are exactly what I was hoping to learn.

Damon

David,I can see where both you and Lynday are coming from and I loved my previous cars which were just in standard set up.

But the changes in my car have not modernised it in any real way.
It is still a 1960s MGA but even more so.

It has the same cart spring joggly ride, it handles the same, has just the same lovely vintage feel about it.

My car is a bit quicker than a standard MGA but still cant live with a standard modern turbo diesel saloon, but it is a hell of a lot more fun to drive than those type of car.

The 5 speed box makes for a bit calmer motorway driving but on country roads i tend to use it as a 4 speed as it is more fun that way.

So the modifications certainly havent spoiled the car, they have just made the MGA experience an even better one.

If my car had a 1600 or 1622 engine in it I would probably leave it in (maybe tune it up a little) until it needed fixing and likewise I would only switch the gearbox for a 5 speed if the original needed replacing.

So if the time has come to fit a new engine or gearbox and you have the MGB engine and 5 speed box to hand, I say fit them. Just keep the originals stored so that they can be replaced if ever anyone wants to.

The car is then just "temporarily" improved, not permanently spoiled!

Colyn
Colyn Firth

Damon,

You can have your cake and eat it so to speak. An 1800 can look almost identical to a 1500 engine if you use all the original ancillaries (a bit of work with a grinding wheel can make it very similar indeed!) Same with the gearbox, very difficult to tell without looking under the car, especially if you use the original knob! If you feel uncomfortable when people ask, you can always say it's pretty much standard with a few mods here and there to help keep up with modern traffic!

Telling people exactly what driveline is fitted only becomes necessary when you sell the car, and as you are not planning for that it's not an issue! Definitely worth hanging onto the original parts though - they may be important in the future.

That said, I can also go along with Lindsay and David in that there is something special about keeping the original engine and gearbox and you can (period) tune the 1600 to give a noticeable improvement over standard.

Whatever, you will get lots of support on here! By the way, what type of brake fluid........

Neil
Neil McGurk

Neil, don't have any trouble keeping up with modern traffic, it's just a bit more of a challenge (fun?) when you have to thrash it to within an inch of its life!
Lindsay Sampford

The 3 main MGB engine was made for the MGA. As Neil said, a little grinding and it is something even a concours judge may miss.

Is this a 1622 or a 1798?




Bill Spohn

And is that a coil or a supercharger!

Sorry couldn't resist LOL
Neil McGurk

well thanks to John F I had a drive in his recently rebuilt 1620cc cc car with the 5 speed box, and instantly noticed the total lack of gearbox whine! The performance felt a little more sprightly as I expected and it certainly drove well enough to be enjoyed on slow fast or motorway roads.

So, loads of great information to digest and now I need to count the pennies and see what I can get sorted. Thanks again everyone for chipping in and helping my decision.
Damon

I enjoyed this thread emensly as I have done virtuely every thing mentioned above to mine Plus a supercharger. My ethos is to change what ever you want but you must not drill any holes were they shouldn't be. You know you can do virtuely everything apart from the 5 speed box conversion where there is a need for 4 in the chassis but you would have to be in an inspection pit to spot these. I particulaly like Colyn's final comment the car is temporarily improved not permantly spoiled.

David
David swaine

In my opinion, a 3-main 1800 is the best engine for an MGA. It looks and sounds stock, and requires no modification to the car whatsoever. It's the same car only with more power. The real advantage of the 1800 is that you get the power of a hopped-up 1500/1600 but with the reliability of the stock unit.

The only downside is that the more powerful engine will produce more heat, and MGAs aren't known for their cooling ability. My MGA with 3-main 1800 does ok, but on really hot days (100+ F) it does struggle to keep cool.

I would not put a 5-main 1800 in my MGA because I find that they feel different, more like a B than an A. I prefer the more "free" and sporty feeling of the 3-main unit. Or maybe I'm just nuts... ;)
Steve S

Steve S, I've driven my car with both a 1600 and now an early 5 main 1800. I honestly don't notice it being any less "free" or "sporty"...just a bit more available power.
Andy Bounsall

I wouldn't say the difference is night and day, and admit that the way the engine is built will greatly affect the difference in feel of the two engines. But, the 3-main is usually credited as revving slightly more freely in performance situations. My 3-main ('63) feels a bit looser than either of my 5-mains ('65 and '67) and just feels different overall, but the later engines are in Bs, not As, so it isn't entirely apples to apples!
Steve S

I personally wanted an MGA with an early 3 main B motor. It's the British version of dropping a big block chevy into where a six cylinder would've resided! ;) Well, not quite, but for someone who wants a bit more grunt, but all the looks and character of the original engine it's a great option.
I love the noise the 1800 makes and with a the 3.9 diff it has no problem on the highway. I would like to experience the get up a 4.3 diff would offer, though.
While I've only driven a couple of A's for sale with 1500's I'm happy I found one with an 1800.
Whether it has an 1800 or 1600 or 1500 under the hood it still creates a car show wherever I take it.
R emgeeaa

This thread was discussed between 09/09/2010 and 19/09/2010

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