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MG MGA - Topiing up front shock absorbers

I am embarrassed to admit it, but after almost 14 years of ownership, I have never topped up the shock absorbers. Not even checked them! It just never occurred to me.
I did put Spax shock absorbers on the back not long after I bought the car so they dont need oil.

Almost everything I know about my car, I have learned from playing with it during my ownership. So having never looked at the front shocks, I know nothing about them! I am assuming the bolt head on the top is for refilling? (see picture).
If they are not leaking, is it likely they still need topping up? Or to put it another way, how often do people find they need to top them up?
And what oil is recommended? The oil listed in the workshop manual (Armstrong Super (Thin) Shock Absorber Fluid No. 624) is probabaly no longer available - I see Moss sell Dynolite Shock Absorber Oil but it doesn't show the spec.

Many thanks



Graham V

Hi Graham

Important not to fill the shocky right up, you need to leave the level a couple of mm below the bottom of the bung hole in the housing to allow for expansion otherwise it'll pressurize and leak---
Motorbike fork oil is good 10 or 20 weight
Don't use commercial hydraulic oil as most doesn't have anti foaming additives --probably be safe enough just for a topup though but not best for a full oil change
Cheers
willy
William Revit

Graham,
never mind workshop manuals if you look in the Driver's Handbook it will tell you about servicing the front dampers. The frequency need may be a lot less now especially if you use a modern good quality oil.

WSM instead of the good book, tuttt.

The following is a cut & paste of what I usually post.

Peter Caldwell of World Wide Auto Parts (USA) is [ was?] very well respected for his better than new exchange service on LA dampers cautions about using thick oil, 30w max.

"Stick with the 20w oil recommended (AW [ISO] 68 spec). At most use 30w (AW [ISO] 100). Best are synthetics like Silkolene or Redline suspension oils. They hold up under heat waaaaay better than standard hydraulic oils.... and these shocks get hot."

AW just means anti-wear.

Silkolene SF 20 Fork & Suspension Fluid – https://www.silkolene.com/motorcycle/suspension-fluids/sf-20/

“The SAE figures give a good guide to relative oil viscosities, however, the ISO figures, related to the true viscosity at 40°C, give a more accurate assessment of damping capabilities.”

. ISO 68 / SAE 20w

. ISO 100 / SAE 30w
Nigel Atkins

Thanks for the helpful input
This looks best value - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184337406076?hash=item2aeb5d987c:g:CqAAAOSwaXVe8LOJ
Now I know what ISO 120 means! Sold by Moss on ebay with cheaper postage cost!


And I am using those bolts are for the topping up apertures?
Graham V

Dynolite is Moss Europe's own brand, if you think Moss Europe always go for high quality and certainly would with their own label, though as far as I know (but I could be wrong) Moss Europe don't own an oil blender company or oil company, then I've heard of a foreign General that can offer you a fabulous investment opportunity.

It is a ISO 68 (which is a specification not level of quality) other than that there are no details of the oil, you could ask Toss where they buy it in from and its specification (other than ISO 68).

"Best are synthetics like Silkolene or Redline suspension oils. They hold up under heat waaaaay better than standard hydraulic oils.... and these shocks get hot."

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401591544079

Yes you can mix the better and synthetic likes of Silkolene with the existing (old/unknown/used/worn?) oil already in your dampers or better still replace as much the existing with as much of the new fresh better oil as possible.

Is it worth it, well that depends on how long you want to keep the car and what condition you want to run it in. Will you notice the difference, unless you completely refill the two front or all four dampers probably not in the driving too much, but perhaps later in your ownership and use the ride from the dampers oil may not have deteriorated as much.

Also -
. Moss oil - £8.20 + £3.95 P&P = £12.15 - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184337406076

. Silkolene SF 20 - £12.99 (inc. P&P) - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/401591544079

Personally I'd buy the recommend oil at 84p a litre extra, but then I'd get it even at £26 for the gawd knows how many years better use and longevity.



Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Thanks. I will go for the Silkolene. That assumes once I check the levels they do need topping up, bearing in mind what Willy has advised about the levels.

Just still wanted to be sure the studs I indicated in my photo, are the right ones to remove, to check and top up the level. I read on an old thread elsewhere that you need to be very careful what you undo, as one nut removes the valve and should never be touched.
Graham V

Graham--A couple of pics for you -
If the pic you put up is of your own shocky then yes the bung you've highlighted is the filler bung as with the sock in pic #1
If it's not your own shocker then it might be the later type with the filler bung in the side of an extended top to prevent overfilling as in pic #2
The valve you refered to is larger and screwed up into the end of the twin piston housing from below--You need to be carefull removing it depending what valve it is, some have a loose spring and shims to be carefull not to loose-
There's nothing wrong with pulling the valve out if you're going to do a full oil change but be aware of loose bits
In a way, if you're doing a full oil replacement and don't want to remove the shock, it's easier to unscrew the vertical cover plate and let it drain from there, but you'd need to bounce the car a bit to expel oil the fluid and bounce it again when it's all back together to bleed the air out
Really it's probably better to remove the shock and do it on the bench for a full oil change and bleed

If you're searching for things to do on your MGA and that pic you put up is indeed your car, then maybe that steering rack boot might need looking at

willy






William Revit

Graham,
you can also learn by reading, why it is that men insist on reading technical sheets and tables or fiddling and farting about with metal bits yet resist reading and learning from books is beyond me. Happy to learn from reading what's put on the likes of here perhaps by the likes of me and others that get it wrong, yet unwilling to go to original (written) source. Yes of course some of the information will be out of date (oils have progressed for a start even if some of the "traditionalist" find this hard to grasp) but things like the Driver's Handbook is a good base to start from for an owner/driver. The workshop manuals are for another level of farting and fiddling about with the cars, or repairs and maintenance not covered by the Driver's Handbook.

Forget the workshop manual and get yourself a copy of the 'good book' (the relevant Driver's Handbook) and you have this information and a lot more.

You can buy paper printed copies that don't rely on batteries being charged, or radio reception or the sun not being too bright. Just one example. - https://mgshop.co.uk/shop/books/handbooks/0060-mga-1500-handbook/

You can also download pdf versions from Barney's website. - https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/books/books_2.htm

The first image below is a screenshot from the 1500 Mk1 Driver's Handbook off Barney's site.

The second photo is an example of contents from a midget Mk3 Driver's Handbook.

There's also loads of info on here or the B forum and currently being discussed on Midget and Sprite forum and I know loads in the Archives there.






Nigel Atkins

Willy
Thanks for that comprehensive reply. Yes, the photo was from my car. I have removed the bung, and they certainly do need topping up. I have ordered the oil Nigel has (thanks Nigel) suggested, so will top it up when that arrives.
And thanks for mentioning the steering rack boot. From the photo it looks like it needs replacing, but in reality it’s in good condition, it just has a drop of waxoyl on it, that makes it appear to be damaged.

Nigel
You should know me better. Of course I have the drivers manual. But I admit it’s not my “go to” reference book. And being the honest guy I am, I must admit the drivers manual picture shows the bung very clearly whereas my workshop manual picture actually shows different shock absorbers.
But it’s always good to have a discussion on this forum. It’s sad that it is not as active as it used to be. I put that down to so much helpful stuff in the archives, and almost any problem we have with our cars, has happened before so is already there. I have learned loads from some very knowledgeable folk. And for example, Willy may have done me a big favour in pointing out a problem with my steering boot. And you yourself Nigel, pointed me in the direction of the oil I need.
Graham V

Graham,
bear in mind there can be many other readers or views of this thread and info that we'll never know about - and they may make the same mistake of thinking a workshop manual is the first place to look when it's very often not (particularly if it's Haynes).

Always consult the 'good book' (the relevant Driver's Handbook) first.

I've know of longer term (decades) owners that don't know something or are getting something wrong on their car because they've not consulted the relevant Driver's Handbook often because they think they already know or have worked it out for themselves, but wrongly.

I want owners to find out for themselves by asking and cross referencing any info they get as there can be different options and opinions and for myself I often get things wrong or forget and occasionally so do others (but I can class myself as a leader in this).

I didn't even see the steering rack gaiter, or at least it didn't register so as you've put it's good to have input from knowledgeable and observant people like Willy. I once tracked down a photo of a MGC bonnet cross brace for DaveO to point out the photo I'd posted was a MGB which I'd failed to notice, at a minimum the engine being a four instead of six should have helped me! 🙃

Nigel Atkins

Back to the dampers, personally if you're not going to remove them off the car I'd take a turkey-baster or whatever and get as much of the old oil out as possible to refill with new fresh better quality oil, you know what Tesco tells us.

I don't know if it'd work - but I'd look to repeat the process after driving the car a bit with the idea that the residue of old dirty worn oil might mix in with the new fresh better oil and I'd turkey-baster or whatever the combined oil out and add fresh oil again to hopefully increase the ratio of new fresh better oil to old dirty worn oil in the dampers.

Or if there too much dirt left in I might remove the dampers and do a proper change, or at least a proper oil change - or I might just add it to the list of things to do, sometime.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
Thanks. I dont plan to take the shocks off the car, at least not at the present, unless I really have to. My back has been a bit dodgy of late, so I am taking no chances.
And it doesnt look like I can suck the air out from the top, too much gubbins in the way.
Graham V

Edit:
And it doesnt look like I can suck the OIL.....
Graham V

Any sort of short flexible tube on a plastic syringe (turkey-baster) should do it as 20 weight oil at least is pretty thin and perhaps more so broken down and contaminated. I shouldn't think there'd be any sizeable lumps of crud/dirt/bits in there to block anything so it should suck out pretty easy. Probably come out even easier if hot from use.

I've syphoned the oil out of the T9 box from the passenger footwell hole on my Midget a number of times and that was with a convoluted route for the hose to go. I bought a very cheap plastic manual syphon kit off eBay (I paid £8 then discovered same at £4, £8 now it seems, inc. P&P) with the intention of using it once and kept it many years of use, only broke last year. I bought a second a number of years ago so I could use one for oil and second for coolant without the need for a deep clean before switch between oil and 'water'. Still got the 'water' syphon.

Had to keep the instruction card to remind me which was in and out on the pump.

It was this(?) one from an example eBay seller. - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/233815849988



Nigel Atkins

Thanks Nigel - I have something similar, that I used on the R3800 box. But the aperture on the shocks will not allow even a small pipe in far as the piston, or something (=gubbins) is in the way. I will just top it up and worry about it later
Graham V

I thought you might be able to get a thin hose to the side of the gubbins, but I might be wrong and these things are often easier said than done.

I can't think the dampers hold that much oil, Willy and others might know, so I'd just suck out as much as possible, top up and try again a second time after driving the car a bit to see if it's worth the effort of a third attempt or proper clean later.
Nigel Atkins

You 'might' be able to get a skinny hose down the side of the connecting rod with some wriggling but really the only way to get enough out to be worth the bother on the front shocks if doing it on the car is to remove the face plate and let it drain (messy) and bounce the car to get as much as possible out--I've never tried to siphon one out through the filler hole but the rocker/piston would be in the way I reckon---don't really know for sure
The rear is easier as the valve is on the bottom and can be used as a drain bung.
A pair of shockers hold not much over half of a 500ml bottle for the pair-
If they're not leaking, I'd be tempted to just top them up until you have a need to have them off.and do them then.

willy






William Revit

Thanks Willy.

Say 270ml per pair from dry fill so say 135ml dry fill per damper, be interesting to see how much oil Graham needs to add to each damper just to get it to its full fill.
Nigel Atkins

I have to admit that I have never looked at the damper oil levels during my ownership of my MGA and I have owned this car for over 15 years!

Four years ago, I completely rebuilt the suspension with new king pins, new wishbones, new wheel bearing, new bushes and new shock absorbers.
There had been no signs of wear in the suspension but, although the car had been restored when I bought it, I just didn't know how old the suspension was. Some of the parts may have been original, around 60 years old at the time.
So I decided to renew everything so I could then be certain that it was in the best possible condition.

But I still haven't thought to check the shock absorbers fluid levels.

I do always check them regularly for leaks and it is obvious that they are working well.

But I will now begin to check the levels on a regular basis, it does make sense.

Cheers
Colyn
Colyn Firth

Thanks for that and to Colyn for making me feel better!
I will report back once I get round to doing it.
Graham V

The main thing is to be clean, really clean up around the bung etc before you start---any grot that you might drop in the hole will be the start of wear etc.
William Revit

Like Colyn in my 54 years of ownership I have never filled up a shock absorber. To my mind if it needs filling it needs changing.

Paul
Paul Dean

Paul, I fear you are right.

I topped up the off-side shock absorber, but before I did, I did the "bounce" test on both sides. The near side was firm, but the off-side was easy to bounce up and down. It took quite a lot of fluid, I would guess well over 100ml. But the offside is now no longer "bouncy"
But I agree with Paul, the fluid must be leaking (unless it was fitted like that, which I very much doubt).

I have done some research and hope I am wrong, but it seems the shock absorbers are not repairable, and replacements dont seem to be readily available either.
Is that correct?

If I can get parts to repair or replace, how easy is it as jobs go? I am guessing removimg the nut at the top of the king pin will be a big challenge, And I have read in the archives that the studs need to come out completely, and are best replaced with bolts
But if it's not possible, and I can get away by topping it up a couple of times a year, I can live with that.

Nigel, I purchased my oil via that link you supplied, and they sent a Motul oil instead- not by mistake either!

Graham V

Graham,
sorry I should have put that the link I put up was only for example, I'd never dealt with them. Personally I'd have insisted on the Silkolene and bounced the Motul as I'm not sure if they do a 20 weight synthetic.

I got my oils from various places including Opie oils who sent me the wrong product but when I contacted them they told me to keep or pass on the wrong product and they send send the correct, all at no extra charge of course. A mate got some very good diff oil that he eventually used.

Have a look in the Midget and Sprite section and the Archives there for info about reconditioned dampers. Peter Caldwell of World Wide Auto Parts (USA) who used to post on the BBS still is still about and has his company.

As you've not checked your dampers before you can't know how badly they're leaking until now you have topped them up (and fully purged the air pockets). You can now know how long they take to drop and by how much. I don't know how you'd really test or inspect them without removing them but others might.
Nigel Atkins

See how you go, it mightn't leak
If it does and it's the side of the shock with the pinch bolt through the arm you can replace the seal easily, if it's the other side it's a shocky out job
The nut on the top of the kingpin doesn't have to be touched, it's the horizontal bolt through the end of the shocker arm that comes out and usually the shocker arm will slide off the trunion then there's the four nuts/bolts that bolt the shocker down and it's out--
Hopefully though it won't leak--fingers crossed.
William Revit

Thanks Willy. Be great if it doesnt leak, but I dont think I will be lucky (I rarely am!) as I have found some tale, tale signs of a leak. And sadly on the opposite side to the pinch bolt.
But maybe its just a very slow leak, and will only need an occassional top up.
It seems replacements are not that easy to come by, but I have found a NOS item at a fair price, so have ordered it just in case.
Thanks for the help in explaining how to get them off the car. Appreciate it
Graham V

All good Graham--I didn't mention it before but if you do go to remove the shocker you need a jack under the bottom suspension arm to take the weight and that'll leave the shocker free of any load, Just be carefull when you take the horizontal bolt out and support the kingpin/hub so it doesn't flop about and wreck the brake hose.

willy
William Revit

Thanks Willy
I will remember to do that. The other thing I have read is that the shocks are fixed to the car by studs, before the body is put on. And that results in the body getting in the way when trying to lift the shock assembley above its studs, to slide it out.
I have seen a suggestion to replace the studs with bolts, to make it easier in future, but that doesnt help now!
I am thinking if I have that problem, I should be able to remover the outer studs, but wont be able to get a spanner on the inner ones, to carry out the two nut trick.
So just thinking it through, as there is access from above, if I grind down all the outer edges of a nut (so it has a smaller exterior diameter), then I might be able to use my socket set in the two nut trick (with smaller nut on top of course). Make sense?
Graham V

They come out ok -A bit of a wriggle sometimes. I think I've ever only had one that got a bit tight for room and took the pinch bolts out of the arm and removed the removable side of the arm and that gave enough room to extract the pest
The studs are quite short- there are bolts on the inside(engine bay side) and studs/nuts on the outside
I think the story of not coming off the studs comes from TD/MGY owners where the shockers have much thicker mountings and way longer studs that go through to the top of the shocker body
The BIG issue is that the top horizontal bolt can be seized in it's bush/sleeve so it's ,nut off and plenty of penetrant overnight to help with that but usually they come out with a bit of firm help.
You'll be right-
willy
William Revit

Having done the job several times in my early high mileage days of A ownership it is rather simple and quick job. The job might be quicker than reading this thread, joke!
I did once fail an MOT in a morning due to them and I asked to book a another MOT for the following morning and I made it despite buying them from Moss then in Darlington with me north of Edinburgh. Red Star did a great job!
Don’t over think this job.

Paul


Paul Dean

Thanks Willy and Paul
I appreciate the reassurance as I was not born with a spanner in my hand!
My 13+ years of ownership of an MGA has been great. I enjoy driving the car of course. But it has also been a great learning exercise for me. When I first bought it, I didn't have the confidence or knowledge to do anything much under the bonnet. But as the years have gone by, I have learned more and more, through necessity as things have needed fixing etc. And for me that learning, and the satisfaction of doing the job, is a great part of the ownership experience.
And often, it wouldn't have been possible without the kind help and encouragement from people on the forum.
Thanks!
Graham V

I have still not completed what I now agree, should be a relatively simple job - it has been a real pain.
I topped up the original shock, but it soon showed signs of a leak. So I sourced what was supposed to be new old stock on ebay, but when it arrived it was old, but not new! Anyway, it appeared to be in good shape, with no leaks, so started to fit.
Horizontal bolt came out fairly easily - YES!
But getting the shock out wasnt easy but it did come out in the end. It had 4 studs, one came out with the nut.
Emptied the smelly old oil out of my "new/old" shock and filled with fresh oil. That is when the trouble started. Getting the shock more or less into place over the studs was a nightmare. I had to "adapt" some of the inner wing to get it under there. But now that it is there, it just wont drop down on the 3 remaining studs.
Before I tried to fit it, I thought one of the studs might have been a little off line, but I ignored it as thought 'it was ok before, must be OK or my imagination'
Before I squeezed it under the inner wing, I did try to remove the remaining outer stud, but it was not having it.
Not sure what I will do next. Maybe remove it again, and WD40 on the 3 remaining studs to try and get them out, and replace with bolts?
Graham V

I am reporting back (I hate it when pople don't).

As I had found it impossible to get the shock absorber to drop down on the studs (maybe I bent one a tad when removing things?), I bought the appropriate bolts (3/8" UNC x 1" course thread) to replace the studs. But the remaining 3 studs proved to be very stubborn. I squirted on WD40, twice a day for a few days. This morning I was able to remove two more studs which left the inner, rear stud, that didn't want to leave its happy home for the last 61 years.
But unusually for me, I stopped and had a think about things. I found that with just that one stud in place, it was now very easy indeed to get the shock absorber in or out of its location on the car. AND with one stud in place, it helps centralise the shock absorber, to get the three bolts in to their locations, very easily. I think locating the holes underneath would otherwise have been more tricky.
So all now looking good - thanks for everyones input, it does help a lot
Graham V

Graham, well done. As I've missed your post as you must have missed allllll my posts saying WD40 Multi-Use is not such a good penetrating, releasing, lubricating fluid as it makes out to be.

PlusGas used to be the go to but now sadly no longer British it also doesn't seem to be as good as it used to be but still better than WD-40 I think (IIRC).

My favourite now is GT85 which I used to use on my pushbikes back in the 1980s, again sadly no longer a British company but part of another all-invasive American corporation that of the WD-40 Company, but it's still good and has a pleasant smell and still uses PTFE.

As you've found with penetrating/releasing fluids that operate best on stubborn fixing when used along with something that is sadly out of stock with many, that is patience (plenty of time between soakings and attempts to release.

Did you check out Barney's site for advice on removal?

GT85, get yourself a can and keep the WD-40 Multi-Use for less important things. - https://gt85.co.uk/

I done the reverse for a fixing on the Midget I turned a bolt into a stud by securing it with a washer and nut, this also created a useful stand-off/raised fixing to clamp to.

And good on you for reporting back.

Did you remember to apply some anti-seize to your fresh fittings?

Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 16/10/2022 and 05/11/2022

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