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MG MGA - When is an MG not an MG?
| Just gathering thoughts from around the Globe! The reason for this thread is that my entry for the forthcoming Australian MG Nationals has been rejected on the basis that my Honda S2000 engined MGA is not a "silhouette" of the original car (mainly, the engine), I entered in the Specials Class, and entered the Hillclimb event, but have been banned from entering this, and even the Kimber Run, which is a social tour! I have been offered a Social entry, which means that all I can do is "socialise". Apparently, the authorities say that these rules have "been in place for over 20 years", and until they are changed, or another class is introduced (unlikely), I will be unable to enter MG competitions with my car. My thoughts on this relate to the future of MG in Australia specifically (as overseas MG organistaions liberalised their rules years ago)..we need younger blood coming into the MG ranks now, be it with a standard MGA/MGB or a Nissan/Toyota/Ford engined MG. This has appeared to have happened in the UK, USA(Variant classes), and South Africa, so why not Australia? Australia in nearly every aspect, is full of red tape and archaic regulations, and this appears to be the case in MG circles. As we all know, youngsters hate rules & regulations (barring Safety regulations), and I think that we should be doing everything possible to ease these hurdle. BTW, I am an "old hoon" it seems! I have withdrawn my application for the National Meeting, and do not place any blame on the organising Newcastle MG Club, who are just following 20+ year rules. |
| Gary Lock |
| Why do people who want a modern sports car dabble around with old MG's? Anyone who wants an up-to-date sports car (not just lively engine, but braking, handling, mod cons, comfort, etc) should go and buy one! |
| Barry Bahnisch |
| In NAMGAR a variant is a factory manufactured car, usually power by the MGA engine. Gary, your car might more likely fit in the Altered A class for show purposes. But I don't think it would be allowed to compete in a vintage, timed/competition event here in the States. |
| David Werblow |
| To give you guys/gals on the other side of the globe an idea of how things work downunder, below is a link to the MGCC of Victoria - Competition Rules (2011). http://www.mgcc.com.au/competition/ClubCompetitionRules2011.pdf Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| David, the NAMGAR rules state that a Variant is "any vehicle with EITHER an MGA chassis OR MGA engine and transmission". Barry, havn't you ever thought about improving an old car just for the "hell of it"? I have two other standard A's, and this one really should have gone to the MG graveyard, but I thought if I can save it, then let's make something a bit more modern under the skin. |
| Gary Lock |
| Mike, the Victorian rules appear to be more liberal than the National rules..there is one class that would allow me to compete in MG ONDA. |
| Gary Lock |
| I would say that an MG ceases to be an MG when it has a major component such as an engine, chassis or, to a lesser degree, a gearbox that isn't MG. Personally, I don't think an MGA is a real MGA if it has something other than an MGA engine and gearbox, but in my book, it would still be an MG if it had an MGB, an MGB V8 or maybe even an MGF engine. Having said that, I certainly wouldn't mind owning a Honda powered MGA, but entering it in competitons against "standard" MGs just wouldn't be fair and also quite pointless. Sorry Gary, but you did ask! |
| Lindsay Sampford |
| I believe that Namgar rules are for contemporary cars such as the Magnette, the Elva Courier and other cars built "at the time". I'm not sure what the Unknown/Other catagory includes. Might include a boat or a tractor, or some stationary equipment powered by an MGA engine? The following is an excerpt from the NAMGER site regarding the cars registered: Model - Qty 1500 - 3427 1600 - 2698 Mk II - 1009 Twin Cam - 354 Deluxe - 100 Farina Mk III - 2 Farina Mk IV - 2 ZA Magnette - 52 ZB Magnette - 123 ZB Varitone - 39 Riley - 2 TVR - 3 Elva Courier - 16 Unknown/Other - 84 According to what I read in the Victoria - Competition Rules, you MIGHT qualify as a "Super Special" and that's about it. 3.0 Super Specials (i) This class must retain the appearance of an MG and employ sufficient MG components to be recognizable as maintaining the spirit of the Marque. Substitution of any mechanical component is allowed. Refer also to Rule 7 for tyres. NOTES: 1. Clearly this is a development class in which the intention is not to allow vehicles of questionable pedigree to compete as MGs when they are patently not, but rather to allow sympathetic building of specials based on MGs. 2. Any vehicle that is new to the Club and wishes to enter this class will need to apply to the Competition Director prior to its first entry. A new vehicle may not turn up on the day and expect to run as an MG if it has not been approved beforehand. 3. Anyone contemplating building a SPECIAL would be well advised to seek the guidance of the Competition Director at all stages of the construction so that any problems can be resolved and avoided. 4. Specials built to the above specification would not automatically be eligible for MG Racing. It is still up to the officials as to whether you would be allowed to compete. As they state, it is not an automatic acceptance. If it were I, I would not allow a S2000 powered MGA to compete in MG events. Nor would I accept a rotary engine, ELectric powered of any other non-MG powered vehicle. Changing the engine to a HONDA does not, IMHO, keep with the MGA pedigree. There are other venues to compete in if you care to do so. I know you are trying to be part of the MGA family. And I still consider your car an MGA. But in competition, it should be disallowed. Of course, it is just one opinion. Chuck |
| Chuck Schaefer |
| An MG ceases to be an MG just because of an engine change? What about the MG entered at the Ulster TT in 1955 with the Austin Twin Cam? Granted the motor was removed before the race,but was still accepted as an entry by the organizers for MG.Is a Ken Costello MGB V8 not an MG too? Would it / is it also banned? Would Gary's entry be acceptable if he had used a period correct Alfa Twin Cam? Maybe the organizers are afraid of technology,therefore any mods not installed at the factory should be refused.In reality he should be put into a new class and inject some newer, younger enthusiasts who love the classic lines,but want more performance. |
| gary starr |
| Gary, Would your A not be entered in "j) Post TF Specials: The type of MG or silhouette engine is free. The brakes are free. Rear discs if fitted, are free. Tyres are free. If a P76 V8 engine is in a MGB it is classified as a Post TF Special." I would think a similar capacity and same number of cylinders would have to be considered. What do they mean by "silhouette engine" Now how has the "Crocodile MGA" coupe been entered every year as it has a toyota twin cam in it. I do hope they turn around and accept your entry as a lot of people would be interested in seeing your car. |
| DJ Lake |
| I thought that it would have been allowed under Super Specials too, but just re-read the rules: 6.2 MG SPECIALS These cars will compete in one of two classes and classification will be by body type. These classes are Pre MGA and Post mgtf. Modifications that are allowed in the production class carry over to MG Specials. In the event of any disagreement, the scrutiny team and / or their appointed eligibility officer will decide on the final classification a) The MG chassis or the complete monocoque body must be retained. (Note: Buchanan style bodied cars or similar would run as Specials). Cycle guards, removal of bonnet sides and mudguard flaring is permitted. Bumper bars are not required. A windscreen is required for both front seats. b) Non-standard cylinder head castings (i.e. not produced by MG, BMC, Leyland or British Leyland) are permitted. c) Supercharging/turbo charging is permitted. d) Two or more seats are to be fitted. e) The vehicle will have all equipment to make it able to be road registered. f) The original type of suspension must be used and mounted by the original fixing points. g) Shock absorbers and attachments are free. h) Wheels are free. i) Pre MGA Specials: will retain 4 wheel drum brakes if fitted with a solid front axle and use an appropriate MG or silhouette engine built before 1972. Tyres must comply with the CAMS Manual Section 8 / Historic Cars. Note: 6.2 Parts (d) and (e) do NOT apply to Pre MGA Specials. (DM 2006). j) Post TF Specials: The type of MG or silhouette engine is free. The brakes are free. Rear discs if fitted, are free. Tyres are free. If a P76 V8 engine is in a MGB it is classified as a Post TF Special. 6.3 SUPER SPECIALS Super Specials is a development class over which the Directors of the meeting have an overall discretion on eligibility. Any potential Super Special competitor must complete the details of the vehicles’ modifications on the entry form. a) Any vehicle not qualifying as a production vehicle or MG Special. b) The vehicle must be based on an MG chassis or MG monocoque body and must be powered by an MG engine (or appropriate silhouette). c) Brakes, suspension, wheels and tyres, gearbox and differential are free. d) Only one seat needs to be fitted. I don't see why your car shouldn't be allowed in a class such as Super Specials, but the rules clearly state that an MG engine is required. A silhouette engine is one basically identical to an MG engine, like an Austin 1800 engine. I'm disappointed, I would love to see a car like your own there, and don't really understand why it can't be when a midget with a K Series or a TC with a Rover V8 can compete. |
| AndrewF |
| By the way, they can be found here: http://www.mgcarclub.com.au/ by clicking the "Sup Regs Nat Meet 2011" link. |
| AndrewF |
| Hi, I thought owning any classic car was about enjoying it whatever you chose to do with it ,sounds to me as though the inmates have taken over the asylum,too many rules more like a government organisation, they should be grateful that someone has gone to the trouble and expense to keep an old car on the road, just my thoughts gordon |
| g c pugh |
| David and AndrewF... "silhouette" is the key word in the Nat Meet reg's. According to all the dictionaries, "silhouette" is a black outline of an object. Apparently a 4-cylinder in line Honda rear wheel drive does not comply? Thanks Gordon, that is exactly what I was trying to do, and maybe encourage the younger breed to take an interest in the older cars, be it an MG or Rolls Royce! |
| Gary Lock |
| Gary, Since you asked, I certainly have not thought of improving an old car just for the hell of it! Its not just the engine, practically everything about modern cars is better. I concentrate on getting my old cars to go as well as they were designed to do and am happy when they can keep up with modern traffic. I dare say that I am a "traditionalist"(?), some may say "dinosaur", but I don't think that I am alone! |
| Barry Bahnisch |
| You aren't Barry! What an achievement it is when you manage to burn-off or out-handle a modern-tin-box with a relic driven by a dinosaur! |
| Lindsay Sampford |
| Gary, The arguments about engine transplants at Aust Nat meets started in 1976 at Ballarat when an MGC was entered with a chev 350 v8 transplant. I had great fun competing against it in a p76 engined B roadster but nothing else was competitive and those rules were introduced for subsequent meetings. I think that your s2000 engined A should qualify for super the special class, given some of the cars that have been entered over the years. In my opinion, the current rules help keep the cars original and, like Barry I now think that new cars are better at being modern than any modified MG. Regards, Mark |
| M Wellard |
| Gary, I don't know where the definition for that word is, but I have seen it before. As I said, it covers engines that are basically the same, e.g. a Rover/TVR/p76 v8 is covered. I think it's ridiculous not to allow a car such as yours in though given the modifications that are allowed provided it's all (sort of!) MG. It's definitely something that should be raised to be changed. For what it's worth, I guess I am the younger generation, being 25. I have competed in Natmeets in my fathers cars (MGA with MGB motor, overdrive box and 6" wide wires, and an MGBGT) since I was a Junior, first at the age of 13. I am this year working to get my MG Midget ready in time, which will run in Specials as I have fitted it with a supercharger. My younger brother recently bought an MG ZR that he will be competing. Barry, MGs were modified and competed in motorsport in various forms from the very beginning, I have always seen it as a core part of the brand? I love and respect a nice original concours car, whether it be restored or never touched, as much as anyone, but modified cars certainly have their place too. These cars were built to be driven! My car was far from perfect before I started, and I would not have felt right to rebuild and modify it if it had been. But as it is, there are plenty of other cars that are far better concourse cars than mine would ever be, so I built it the way I wanted it. I also built it in a period fashion, using a supercharger sucking through an SU carb as many would have been modified at the time. |
| AD Fraser |
| This is what the UK DVLA (Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency) says about it all: Vehicles that have been rebuilt using a mix of new and/or used parts. To keep the original registration number cars and light vans must use: The original unaltered chassis or unaltered monocoque bodyshell (that is, the body and chassis as one unit); or A new chassis or monocoque bodyshell of the same specification as the original. A receipt from the dealer or manufacturer is required. AND the vehicle must have two other major components – as listed below – from the original vehicle. Suspension (front and back) Axles (both) Transmission Steering assembly Engine In summary, my car with an 1800 engine and Ford gearbox is still a 1958 MGA as it has its original chassis and body plus 3 of the required 2 items: axles, suspension and steering assembly. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Mr Lock, You are clearly a pariah and are being shunned by the MG community for your blasphemy! Waaaaahahaha....:) But really, while I think your transplant is very cool I wonder why you want to enter it in an MGA National event? I don't think you'll see any "Bucket T" street rods at a Model T national event. But there are plenty of venues where modified cars are welcomed. OK, I'm offically registered in your Global Opinion survey. Cheers, GTF |
| G T Foster |
| I don't question whether the car is an MGA or not. Certainly it is. I think most of us agree an that point. I can appreciate virtually any car that started out like as an MGA no matter how far it strays from the original. Where I may differ from some is in a performance competition. Certainly, nobody here thinks that this S2000 powered car should compete side-by-side in direct competetion with a standard issue 1500 powered car, do they? It would not be a equitable contest. However, it is on the owness of the holders of this event to have some class that would allow such a vehicle to compete, especially if it were owned by a member of that organization. Whether they have such a class or not, is another matter. I think they do, the Super-Special class, at least in principle if not in words. Should the car be allowed to participate in a "social tour"? Of course it should. Here I think the "authorities" are way overstepping their "authority". This sounds like a smug attitude by some elitists. I thought that MG owners worldwide were far detached from that sort of social snobbery. I just wonder how this same group of judges would respond to an application form for an MGA with a 185HP Silhouette 3.4L engine from an early 90's Olds Silhouette? I mean, the rule has been in place for over 20 years.....Since the word silhouette doesn't seems to be defined anywhere Perhaps there is some overseeing committee you can request to appeal your application. |
| Chuck Schaefer |
| This car would never be up against a standard MGA in any of the events. The Super Specials class normally has one or two heavily developed v8 B's and a mid-engined Midget on slicks! If the S2000 powered A is predominantly a standard-ish road car (and I don't know whether it is or not) then it would probably struggle to get anywhere near these cars. As it is, an 1800 powered MGA with wider wheels and a replacement gearbox does compete as standard, and the MGA class is one of the most hotly contested, so a stock standard 1500 A is going to have trouble coming out on top anyway. |
| AndrewF |
| Some facts for consideration when taking your position on whether Gary's MG ONDA should be permitted entry to the Australian MG National Meeting (annual event) in April. The events at the Nat. meeting are, Concours Motorkhana Hillclimb (there are optional road tour events for people who do not wish to compete in the motorkhana or hillclimb but suspect Gary's interrest lies elsewhere)! MGAs are split into the following classes in these events to even up the competition. MGA roadsters (any B series push rod motor) MGA coupes (any B series push rod motor) mga twin cams Specials post-TF Super Specials The Specials post-TF allows for non Twin Cam MGAs and other post-TF models with cross flow heads, amongst other things. Super Specials allows for MGs with supercharging/turbocharging amongst other things. At the last 2 National meetings there were less than 20 MGAs of all varieties entered in each of the motorkhana and hillclimb/sprint events (It is expected that there will be more entries at the coming Nat. meeting as Newcastle is closer to the demographic centre of Australia than where previous events were held). For more details on the National Meeting see http://www.mgcarclub.com.au/natmeet2011.htm Mike PS my personal opinion is "bend the rules" to get as many MGAs as possible to these events. |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| Sorry, I missed the time to edit on my last post: To give an idea of how hotly contested the MGA class is, in 2009 I came 4th in class in the motorkhana. In any other class in the event (including Specials, Super Specials, and Midgets) my time would have gained me 3rd place or better. Mike, supercharging and turbocharging are allowed even in the normal Specials class! Have a look at the rules I copied and pasted above. |
| AndrewF |
| Thanks Andrew - I was looking at the MGCC Vic rules that are slightly different to the National rules! Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| Guys Like most of you, I look back and love unrestored cars and look fortward and love modified cars. Gary's MGA has been built tastefully and looks exactly as a MGA should look. However, under the skin, Cecil Kimber has up-graded it to modern times... My wish is people in high places should realise there is grey in this world and cars like MG ONDA are special, are legal, are beautiful and have a place to be shown in MG circles and appreciated!!! Good on you, Gary! Dave |
| David Godwin |
| Hi Gary, Your rejection by the Natmeet would not have come as a surprise to you because you and I discussed this issue years ago even before you started your project. I suggested a number of MG/Rover family engines you could have legally used but you said you weren't bothered about competing at the Natmeets anyway. The Natmeet rules are sacrosanct and change is very difficult. If anything they are becoming more stringent. They are designed to keep cars looking and running like MGs and have evolved to that end since 1970. You and Dan have done a great job on your car so enjoy it. You have another MGA so bring that one. Regards, Bob. |
| R Somerville |
| Bob, I think you have missed the whole point of trying to get cars such as this eligible for entry into the MG world. We need NEW blood to keep the MG name going, not just now, but 20 years down the track, and this is an area where we can attract the young ones. I know of another very keen MG fan who has a Nissan engined MGB, and he cannot enter Nat Meets. Why is it that most countries around the world already cater for this type of vehicle with special categories (e.g.Super Specials)?..why not Australia as well? Even your own Club appears to have a class suitable. As you have seen from most of the threads, there is certainly a majority in favour. |
| Gary Lock |
| Bob, If your are on the board to discuss this topic during the post Nat meet discussions it may be worth bring this to everybodies attention. Its a shame that a wonderfully engineered car like Garys cannot be entered. Clubs and rules do need to change with time. When will the associations allow for hybid or electric engined cars. Do we have to wait till no oil fueled cars are left. We have two MGAs. One a running 1600 with MG everything. The other is a 1500 with crap engine and gearbox. What a shame if we got this car back on the road with a modern engine/gearbox so we could accelerate as quick as the latest Hyundai. Modern engines (in the minority of cars) will allow these cars to be enjoyed into the future. I believe we need to embrace modern conversions to grow the MG club associations with the next generation, otherwise all the young people will be with the MX5 club.(most of their memebers are already a lot younger than MG club memebers) I'm turning 40 next Saturday. |
| DJ Lake |
| Gary, I agree with the above comments that I would like to see your car there, and feel that it would be a suitable entrant in a class like Super Specials. Ultimately though, I also agree that at this point you should just bring your other car and compete. Then following the event, raise it as an issue to be discussed. That is the only way it may be changed, the rules will not be changed for this year at this late stage and are (sadly) quite clear about excluding your car at this point. I'd love to see your beast at a future event though! Hope to see and/or meet you at Easter, Andrew. |
| AndrewF |
| I find it hard to understand some of the comments. If younger people have an MX5 (Miata) then they should join the MX5 Club. If you have a Toyota Prius Hybrid then you join the Toyota Club. If you have an MG you join the MG Club. If in the years to come there are no MG's (doubtful) then the MG Club will cease to exist, and of course so it should. You do not have other cars in a Club for the sole purpose of keeping it going. This defies logic. Mick |
| M F Anderson |
Mick, you are on the wrong track... we are not talking about completely different cars, we are talking about MG bodied cars, with a "transplant". Will someone with a heart transplant (be it from a black, brown or white donor) be banned from the Olympic Games if they are fit and able to compete? On the outside, they are the same person, but they have another "engine" on the inside. |
| Gary Lock |
| Hi Gary as the oldest modified MGA in Queensland (1964 first seriously modified) and a car that has had V8 power since 1981ish (legally in 1980s) I know your frustration!! I recall the numerous times I went to Mcleans bridge only to be scorned and shunned by the purists. Funny thing was after the spectators looked at the first red MGA then the next green one then another red one then an identical white one and so forth they ignored the rest and headed straight for my modified wayyyyy down the very back....actually I pissed the purists off so much they sent me down near the toilets by myself in the end!!! Dont worry, Just go to the meets anyway. I will be once the resto is finished and I will be happy to park in your masterpiece's shadow!! Just ignore the old farts as I always have...and just laugh in their faces. regards Mark PS still have that towbar for you...and an interesting idea you might want to do... |
| Mark Mathiesen |
| Gary and Mark, I am a fan of modifying and updating cars, even MGs. I have modified all my MGs in one way or another. However, I as an old fart, I believe there is a wide enough range of engines to choose from within the MG/Rover family and that crossbreeding is unnecessary. As for alternate fuels, there are already diesel engines eligible and there is no ban on LPG and, who knows, our Chinese masters are probably already working on an electric MG right now. All the young people I know are only interested in modifying a car to the extent of the ICE or ever-bigger wheels. They wouldn't know where to start on removing the old engine let alone engineering a new install. MGs are not cool man! If you choose to go it alone that is your choice but don't expect the rest of the MG movement to agree with your decision. You knew the rules before you started. Bob. |
| R Somerville |
| I do enjoy these discussions, not for the grief but to understand and listen to the hypocracy of some people. Every car I have ever seen is modified in some way or another. However "purists" tend to be convinced that the modifications they have made to their cars do not count?? Isn't there some rule in the USA that so long as the modifications are reversable then entry to any competition is fine!! how does that work? Well an old boys network springs to mind!! The question does arise however at what point do we stop modifying? I know a Midget that has simply a body with extended wheel arches and very little else from a Midget but is it a Midget? These are not easy questions for anyone to answer! I prefer to enjoy all styles. We should appreciate all views and welcome everyone who wants to enjoy what Abingdon stood for. And they certainly stood for modifying cars to perform better that is a fact! What has happened to the fraternity of the MG Marque? I am afraid the same as the world I fear, we seem to have lost our tolerance of the beliefs and interest of others? Sadly! |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| Having owned my Coupe for 30 years that is as close as original as I could get it,it's attitudes like Mr Somerville's that I really don't understand.I think he means well,but after all they are working mans cars not Rolls.A number of years ago I was at a big midwest MG meet and was talking to a young lady who had just bought her first MG, a B. Someone pointed out her radio antenna was in the wrong spot and kept badgering her that she should have it moved,so much in fact you could tell she was upset.Needless to say I don't belong to any clubs or go to any meets anymore.LIFE IS TOO SHORT |
| gary starr |
| From my interpretation, Gary does not want to enter the MGA Concours section at the National meeting but only to be accepted and compete at events such as the motorkhana and hillclimb with his MG friends in any Specials class that would have him! Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| Broadly speaking there are 3 types of MGA owners: Concours/originality addicts; racers; and general use owners. The first category will always be a true MGA, no argument there. The second category will also be an MGA provided the cars falls within the MGA race specifications for which it is prepared. The final category, the road going general purpose MGA, will remain an MGA provided it falls within national licensing criteria ( I explained the UK requirements earlier). Let's face it. MGs in general have always been modified. I firmly believe that is what Cecil Kimber always intended. He built inexpensive cars to be enjoyed, raced and trialled by the public at large. Until he came on the scene, racing was generally the preserve of the rich. He brought sporting events into the reach of the middle classes. Let us also not forget that his early production cars were themselves modified stock cars from the Morris factory. Just because some of us choose to change an engine or gearbox to a modern version does not mean we should get rid of the MGA and buy a modern box. It means that some of us enjoy the mechanical challenge and enjoyment of enhancing the performance of a beautiful looking 1950s car, just as Kimber wished. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Basically I agree with the wise words of Mr Mick Anderson and Mr Bob Somerville. Too much major modification such as more powerful engines from other marques are not really in the spirit of what consitutes an MG. There are many Hot Rod clubs that cater for these type of vehicles. The younger generation are generally not interested in joining car clubs of any sort, so that is not a valid reason to drastically alter the rules. The rules have been refined over many years and while not perfect, seem to satisfy the majority. If MG's cease to be manufactured in the future and the MG Car Club eventually also ceases to be viable, then so be it,that's evolution. Garry |
| Garry Kemm |
| Lets not foget old MG No1 was in fact a "hotroded" Morris!!!! Must make sure we ban it at any Aussie MG meets... |
| Mark Mathiesen |
| Old No 1 used an 'in-house' engine in the days when MG was actually "M.G." and part of the early Morris empire. Cheers, Matthew. |
| Matthew Magilton |
| Crumbs Gary, it sounds like a cracker of a car, and I'm sure, goes like the clappers. I think that it should be included, but as a modified super class. I have to go along with the tide on this, as far as MG engines, of the era, or marque. If it was allowed to just be run with the rest of the bunch, you could be up agenst a modified TC with a Rolls Merlin in the next meet ( same vintage even!). Good on ya for keeping another A from the scrappers, but hey, it's kinda not a MG no more..... Cedro Rosecrantz |
| Gary Lock |
| Thanks everyone for the comments. BTW, don't know how that last comment came with my name on it? |
| Gary Lock |
| What we need to remember is that we are discussing the rules for Australian National Meetings. These rules have evolved over a period since 1970 and are necessary because our N.M.s are primarily competition driving events not a show and shine. We have 31 classes covering all M.G. models including three for Specials. With awards presented for 1st, 2nd and 3rd for every class in four competition events - well over 300 awards. The rules are determined by a conference of delegates from the 17 eligible M.G. clubs. Notices for rule changes must be made in advance and are difficult to achieve. There have be innumerable M.G. Hybrids turned away from National Meetings, I can recall the Chev MGC mentioned by someone previously, a Jaguar MGA, a Toyota MGA, a Fiat MGB, a Holden TC, a Rotary Midget, etc. Our Specials classes have allowed many B-series powered T-series, 1800 MGAs, a V8 TC and dozens of supercharged or turbocharged variations. I was working on a Chev MGB only last week but the owner knows he can't enter the N.M. so will bring an M.G. powered M.G. That is the one basic tenet. Event organisers want to encourage as many M.G. owners to enter their event as possible and the rules are designed provide a degree of parity within classes but they can't keep adding classes. |
| R Somerville |
| Bob, Educate me. What engine options are there to choose from IF I didnt want to use a 1500, 1600, or 1800 B series engine. Is there anything remarkably different/ more powerful which would warrant the effort to use these engines. David. |
| DJ Lake |
| A K series or Rover V8 powered MGA would run in Specials. |
| AD Fraser |
| Is a V8 engined MGA closer related to an original MGA, or is a 4 cylinder MGA with similar displacement, but with later technology closer related?? To me allowing a V8 MGA as a super special, but not a 4 cylinder, just doesnt make sense. |
| DJ Lake |
| The Rover V8 is a MG engine because the MG factory used it in the MGB V8. Mick |
| M F Anderson |
| Without reading the majority of the thread, here is my criteria. If you were blindfolded and put into a car, then allowed to drive around a big empty lot, and couldn't say if it was an MGA or not, then it isn't an MGA. In stock form the car is unmistakable. With changes that do not alter the driving experience, it is still an MGA. With a modern engine and gearbox, you have changed the heart of what the car is while on the road so rather than driving "an MGA", you are driving a "modified MGA" or a "special based on an MGA chassis". It still deserves to carry the badge, but if asked, I wouldn't tell anyone that it was simply an MGA. I would explain that it was a modified car. The other side of the coin is appearance. Personalization to improve driving comfort or safety is perfectly acceptable in my book. However major appearance changes which alter the basic design that the stylists at M.G. spent years developing is creating something else. This type of change would put the car into the "special bodied" class just like any other type of car. Just my opinions of course! |
| Steve S |
| I think your opinion sums it up nicely Steve. as an analogy, compare our cars to compositions by Mozart. If you play Mozart's music on modern instruments, it sounds more accurate and vibrant, but it is not what Mozart or his audiences heard. The instruments that Mozart used had shortcomings in tone and power that have been practically done away with over the centuries. The music is still Mozart, but not as Mozart knew it. The same applies to our cars. It all depends on what you want your MGA experience to be. |
| Lindsay Sampford |
| Crickey, haven't we opened a can of worms? I am not encouraging or discouraging the modification of an MGA or any other car, I joined this discussion for the benifit of those that have followed the whole thread to put Gary's complaint into perspective. David, please re-read my previous post. To be able to compete at an Australian M.G. National Meeting you must have an M.G. powered by an M.G. engine. I could list them if you really want me to but you know them as well as I do. The range became even more exciting with the introduction of the K4 and KV6 engines in recent years. Did you see the KV6 powered MGB GT for sale in your local paper last week for $8K? The engine, trans and Haltec gear would be worth that! The exhaust wouldn't sound like Mozart though - more like Stravinsky. And it would qualify for entry in the Natmeet! |
| R Somerville |
| I guess that you could in theory put a BMW engine in the car as they owned the MG brand from 1994 to 2000. British Aerospace also owned the brand from 1988 to 1994 so the mind boggles as to what else could also be counted as 'legal'. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| So according to Lindsay my car should be renamed an MGA-Bierra! (it sounds like a kit car! but it is actually an MGA with an MGB engine and a Sierra 5 speed box ) So I thought I would check out Steve S in California's theory of driving my MGA-Bierra blindfolded around an empty carpark to see what it felt like. Well it still felt like an MGA at first but to my amazement it no longer looked like one after I ran it into the boundary wall!! Just kidding! But this is the third MGA I have owned and to be honest, the MGB engine feels and sounds the same as the first two standard engined cars. The sierra box makes no difference to the way the car drives or performs, it just revs less in top gear than before. My car does feel different to the other two but this is due to harder the ride quality due to its lowered and stiffer suspension. To be honest this has made the car feel completely different to a standard car, nowhere near as comfortable as a standard car but great fun to drive. So I do describe it as a modified MGA but it is still unmistakedly, an MGA. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Well the staggering thing is that a car with a ""4.6 320 Bhp Ford mustang V8"" would be eligable (engine fitted into an MGSV) Whilst a Midget, as an example fitted with a ford 1.7L engine (A popular modification many years ago and named an Atlantis) would not! Sometimes rules appear totally bananas and one has to wonder what the motivation was in the rule makers mind? By the way where do concours people buy cross ply tyres from? or do they "modify" :) |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| For you guys in Queensland here is a complying engine for your MGA - not sure if is for sale yet. Mike  |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| Bob, cross ply tyres are very much alive and kicking and can be bought from Longstone and the like! Not me! (yet) |
| Neil McGurk |
| We DO have a link between Honda & BL. "In 1979 BL struck a collaboration deal with Honda to share the development and production of a new mid-sized car (Triumph Acclaim/Honda Ballade). The new car combined Honda engine and transmission designs with a BL body"..source Wikipedia. The Honda 800 was also built in collaboration with BL. |
| Gary Lock |
| Gary You are correct. From the mid to late 80s the Rover Group's 200 series (British-built Honda Ballade) used Honda designed engines. My company cars (changed every 6 months) during the 90s (when British Aerospace, now BAE Systems, owned Rover and MG) were the turbo charged 220s. I believe they had T-Series engines (Wikipedia to refresh my memory). With BAE's tie up with Rolls Royce for its military aero engines and military land transport during the period, you could perhaps with tongue in cheek, include Rolls Royce car engines!?; maybe a Merlin engine; or perhaps a Challenger II tank engine, the Perkins 26.6 litre CV12 diesel engine delivering 1,200 hp (890 kW). Now these would certainly lift a few prizes, but fitting them in the MGA might require more than a little bit of ingenuity! Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| In fairness to the rule makers Steve and Gary I think the Honda engines whilst being Rover Group were never fitted into an MG engineered car (might be wrong?) so do not qualify. Obviously someone on the rule making committee had a V* fitted into probably a B roadster and found a way of making rules to suit! :) I think if you are limiting engines then the engine should be as fitted originally, saves all this speculation and controversy! The specials calss would then simply be specials so what? |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| OK Neil that said I have not seen many MGAs touring Europe with cross ply tyres Perhaps they are fitted on trailored cars? |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| Ok so here is a legal definition in Australia, actually it is a Queensland State definition as declared in Department of Transport Statutes by the Queensland State Government and Governor of Queensland (and therefore also fully compliant under the national Code - Federal law). Gary's car is legally registered in Queensland as an MG(and therefore recognised in a court of law (State and Federal)as an MG. It also complies with all East Coast State legislations and definitions as an MG. In Australia the order of law is quite straight forward, bottom of the food chain laws are made by clubs and individuals, City/Town Council laws override these, State laws override Council laws and Federal laws overrides everyone! Bottom line the aussie clubs can define an MG till the cows come home but under both State and Federal statute laws and courts Gary's MG is an MG...end of story! Having said that I accept that a modified MG needs to be isolated in some way from those who have spent hours (ok a lifetime usually) restoring a car to perfection and perhaps the current rules attempt to do this, then again maybe we need to be constantly adjusting the rules to suit evolving trends. I never will enter in a club meet or concorse event, I will turn up but I accept (wisdom with age?) that some are offended by my car. I will always stop and admire any MGA, its a beautiful car in any condition or modification no question (equal in my opinion to an E-Type). But we need to chill out a bit (including me I know). As has been stated, so many young drivers are buying Jap rice racers rather than classic cars like MGs and it would be a shame to see us self destruct over bickering about something as petty as 'you can' or you can't' be an MG. I went out before and had a conversation with the 'A' in the shed. I asked her what she thought about it, was she an MG or not? She said she is my 'special' MG so we are OK with our relationship(yes I talk to my car, have done for 30 years...I bet a few others out there do to, at least she listens). regards Mark |
| Mark Mathiesen |
| Mark, I love it...tell your "Girl" my "Guys" say hi. Well said. GTF |
| G T Foster |
| Fantastic Mark..well said! Will be in touch re the towbar shortly, but my concern is, is it a genuine MG part??!! |
| Gary Lock |
| Bob Obviously the rules cannot be changed for this year and your view is to not allow MGs with non-MG motors at Nat Meets, what is the process that needs to be followed for someone wishing to enter a car like Gary's at future Nat meets? I'm aware of the post-Nat Meet meeting but that is more for discussing how the Nat meet ran and leaves little time to discuss changes to the rules - in this case, the Super Special Class rules to allow any power plant but keep the same body/shell. This information may be useful for Gary, Mark and others and a lifeline for the Nat Meet in the long run... Dave |
| David Godwin |
| To modify or not to modify.... I sit in both camps I'm afraid, I can see both sides of the debate. I ran a lovely MGA in the 1980s with a 1600 Alfa engine and 5 speed box, what a superb little car that was (I wonder where it is now?). There are many in the UK that fit the K series engine to Spridgets, Bs and I'm sure As, also modification to suit various 5 speed gearboxes are very common AND accepetd by most. So WHY the big deal with Gary's car...? I've seen the car, it's a superb piece of engineering and something that Gary and Dan should be very proud of. The fact Gary owns and runs other, Std MGAs should tell you that he likes the pure MG too and is not a rebel just sticking two fingers up at the jobsworths. Perhaps there is a personality clash between Bob S and Gary, Bob using his position to dictate...? The MGCC in this area is sadly a fading club and does need some drastic action to bring some life back to it. Stuck in the mud committee members (in any club throughout the world) need to look at the bigger picture NOT what is in their personal comfort zone. Being an MGCC UK member and Ex register committee member, I feel a certain amount of qualification to comment. The MGCC in the UK are now leading from the front with new ideas, new website and very forward thinking and young staff. OK, don't accept Garys MG ONDA entry for competitive events, but for goodness sakes and the sake of the whole MG 'friendship' don't prevent him joining in on the social runs and other events. Why not use Gary's car and I'm sure others like it to your advantage and promote the event by attracting others to come and look at 'alternative' MGs.... Afterall it's the 'specials' that create the most interest at shows and events. The Midget that Bob Turbo refers to is again a fantastic engineering exercise with Rover V8 engine through Ford Sierra 4WD running gear always draws a massive crowd....! Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| Struth, I have not visited this site for a few days, and I am quite surprised this thread is still going. Although one would have to admit it is running out of steam as amongst some good observations and comment, some silly and irelevant statements have appeared. The topic has an Australian flavour and it seems most support for heavily modified MG's is from the State of Queensland. Down south in Victoria I would dispute the claim that "it is the specials that create the most interest at shows and events." |
| Garry Kemm |
| Back in the day, MGTC and TD owners regularly replaced their MG engines with everything from Volvo fours to Ford flathead V8s. I have never heard anyone claim that those cars were no longer MGs. I would add that when the MGA was introduced, MG purists were horrified. The MGA didn't have a "proper" MG body, being all smooth and sleek, and it didn't even have an MG engine - it had an AUSTIN engine! Ken |
| k v morton |
| Garry As said, I sit in both camps. I love a tuned car and in my case, I love 'in period' tuning like Speedwell, Downton, etc etc. To quote you..."I would dispute the claim that "it is the specials that create the most interest at shows and events."" I'd like to debate this point. It's fantastic to see a line up of standard and concourse cars. To see and appreciate all the hard work, research and detail that has been done to re-create a wonderful car. It's also great to see original cars, unrestord and still being used as daily transport. But LOOK at the public... which cars always have a crowd around them...? It's the car that looks a little different isn't it... Curiosity as to what's been done to various bits of the car to make it so.... And Ken's comments... Go back to the 1950' and 1960s when a lot of MMM models were running around with any engine they could get under the bonnet to keep them going... No longer MGs..? Yeh right...! And here we are in Australia where Holden engines have found in almost everything... Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| Like Garry Kemm I am surprised this topic keeps bumping to the top of the list. Reluctantly I must bump it again to defend myself. I am in no position to influence others one way or another, nor have I tried to. I have no official position within my local club - M.G.C.C. Victoria. I have known Gary Lock for many years, I have never criticised him or his car. It's his car to do as he chooses. I am not opposed to modifying M.G.s or any other car. As I tried to explain earlier in this thread I only joined this discussion to give some background to why Gary's car is ineligible to compete at a National Meeting. Gary is welcome to attend the event and I'm sure his car would be the centre of attention; he just can't expect to win any award because there is no class for non-M.G. engined M.G.s. I warned him of this before he started on the project and he said he wasn't going to use it for Natmeets, he had other M.G.s for that purpose. Mark Boldry, I doubt that the future of M.G.s or the M.G. Car Club movement depends on us accepting non-M.G. engines. Cars that were previously fitted with other (read CHEAPER) engines in the past are usually bought and restored to original to realise their real value - they are usually not worth much with the 'other' engine. |
| R Somerville |
| I am not surprised to see this thread getting so much interest. Surely, this is what this forum is all about, giving everyone a chance to share their opinions and, of course, to clarify national rules, be it Government or club. Most important of all it shows that everyone's passion for the MGA is alive and well. Also, I for one always enjoy reading a little tongue in cheek banter intermixed with the real issues and will continue for my part occasionally to provide some. Cheers Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| I suppose this thread has had a lot of action because it may be more interesting than discussing which oil the nut behind the wheel should use to hold his hair in place when enjoying in a day run in his restored MGA. Plus, The Queensland MG club caters for more people than just MG owners. We have a huge group of members who drive race cars, marque, road cars due to the club owning a hill climb track. For example my father and all my brothers are members but only i drive an MG. Maybe that is why we are less concerned with desperate originality. David. MGA 1600. |
| DJ Lake |
| R Somerville, Back in the day, TCs and TDs were fitted with other engines because the other engines were BIGGER, not because they were cheaper. Some owners have always wanted more powerful MGs. Ken |
| k v morton |
| "Mark Boldry, I doubt that the future of M.G.s or the M.G. Car Club movement depends on us accepting non-M.G. engines. Cars that were previously fitted with other (read CHEAPER) engines in the past are usually bought and restored to original to realise their real value - they are usually not worth much with the 'other' engine." MGs have been 'modified' one way or another from their beginnings in the mid 1920s. It was each owners perogative to do with his / her car as they desired. Take for example the MG K3 Parnell with it's one off twin over head cam cylinder head (by McEvoy) and sliding block front suspension http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoIwSOKH9Y Surely a radical modification for 1935 yet still very much accepted as an MG and raced as one even to this present day. Tell me about the Vintage era when a car was produced by a manufacturer as a driving chassis and bodied (and in some cases engined) by whoever the owner chose. Surely, if what is debated above, cars such as Rolls Royce, Bentley and even MG in some cases would cease to be and would become Hoopers, Park Wards, Jarvis, Styles etc etc, Would a Morgan become JAP, Matchless, Ford, Triumph, Rover etc...? I think not. Gary's and many many others are still and always will be the car they started life as, in this case an MGA. So Mr R Somerville, I referanced you at the begining of this. I firmly believe that acceptance of all types of MG and assosiated BMC / BL cars IS essential to the survival of the MG Car Club and other MG clubs. Don't tell me you would turn a Sprite away at the gates of an MG event...? (Oooops, another topic of debate I can see... lol) Retro-fitted engines are NOT always a cheaper option, on the contrary in most cases they are a quest for more performance or maybe just an engineering exercise. You mention 'value' a dirty word (in my opinion).... If you are just looking for value then perhaps you are in the wrong hobby. The car (whatever it may be) has no monitary value unless you sell it, but then, if you sell it, you didn't want it did you.... so why have it??? No, buy your MG, drive your MG, maintain your MG and ENJOY your MG, but if $$$$ are your issue... don't add up the bills. Mark. PS. NO offence meant to ANYONE, just trying to open up this discussion and hope that a bigger picture can be seen.... |
| M T Boldry |
| Cars of all makes, not just MGs, have been modified by their owners throughout history. In my opinion that fact holds no relevance to the question posed. It is not the fact that they are modified, but rather at what point the modifications take away from the original design to the point that it becomes something else. Additionally, I would say that race cars are in a completely different league from road cars, since most race cars are one-offs anyway. |
| Steve S |
| As I see it, the question is not "Is it and MG or not?" The question is simply "Why won't those-in-charge al least let Gary register as something other than a 'Social Entry'?" If the Kimber Run event is a social event, he should be able to register for it. Even if Gary has a proper MG, he, and others like him, should be able to attend with whatever MG they choose, not one chosen for him. I'd probably fight this one all the way and when they were eventually worn down, and they accepted my application..... I'd follow Groucho Marx's lead with a letter that said, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER". Upon rereading Gary Lock's first post, it appears that he did just that. This NatMeet group in not a very social group in my opinion. Certainly not in the spirit that most of us have. |
| Chuck Schaefer |
| Steve. As with all discussions, they develop. I haven't addressed the original post that Gary Lock wrote, although I do have an opinion. "I entered in the Specials Class, and entered the Hillclimb event, but have been banned from entering this, and even the Kimber Run, which is a social tour! I have been offered a Social entry, which means that all I can do is "socialise"." I believe that Gary SHOULD be allowed an entry into the Hilclimb in the class that caters for 'Specials'. So what if he's quicker... (which I very much doubt he will be). Sprints and Hillclimbs are only a gauge of you and your car, trying to develop yourself and your car and better your OWN times. A bit like Golf I guess... but far more interesting lol. As for NOT allowing Gary to join in on the Kimber Run which is a social run, I find this dispicable and I'm sure if this were to have been discussed with the staff at Kimber House (UK MGCC HQ), Gary would be welcomed along with all other MGs. So Steve, in YOUR opinion, when does an MGA become not a MGA..? And at what point would YOU dis-allow it from joining other MGs on a road run...? Perhaps a picture of the car in question may support this question... Gary? I've just looked through this thread and I feel that the support for Gary and his car out-weighs the chritisism... does that say anything...? Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| ..."So Steve, in YOUR opinion, when does an MGA become not a MGA..?" Please see my previous post in this thread for my view on the subject! ..."And at what point would YOU dis-allow it from joining other MGs on a road run...?" I wouldn't! I organize several runs per year here in California and no one has ever been turned away. We get MGAs with MGB engines, MGBs with Ford V8s, replica Lotus 7s and 11s, Even a Triumph built of parts from four different cars. If it were a competition then I would certainly put a Honda-powered MGA in a class separate from stock MGAs, but I can't see why anyone would want to turn it away altogether unless there is some legal issue with modified cars. |
| Steve S |
| Then Steve we are in agreement and Gary should, in the opinion of the majority, be allowed to join in the activities of the Australian MG Nationals. So why then is it do you think, the few 'stuck in the mud' jobsworths feel so strongly about him not attending in the MG ONDA...? It's clear that other similarlay modified MGAs have been allowed this 'privilage'(?) in the past perhaps like Dan's 'Crocodile MGA Twin Cam' with 4AGE engine.. (as stated above). Thoughts...? Mark. PS... having owned and driven many MGAs and others including Spridgets, MGBs, Jaguar E Types, Jensens and Aston Martins, I can tell you very few of the same type of vehicle feel alike, each having their own characteristics. |
| M T Boldry |
| Ye gods ...what a thread! Let me add my own dribble to the many words spouted forth. I have an intense dislike of bureaucracy and the tick box mentality. I have lived in some dreadful places around the world were this mentality dominates. I find that it also permeates the committees for golf clubs, body corporates etc etc.. Ever since I retired I have stuck as far away from these 'rules' as I can... and from this thread it is evident the mentality is built into the minds of the many of the MGA Club commmittee members in some parts of OZ ( pleased to see US and UK are not so anal retentive). My assessment of many of these souls is that it is a form of control and power on others by those who generally never got any respect of their achievements at work or at home ie failures. Gary has a beautiful engineered car and it an MGA and only a tick box twit would state otherwise. He and others with similar cars should be allowed to join and participate in ' appropriate ' events and certainly in all social activities. I do not understand why he would want to but......Groucho Marx had an expression for it. |
| Neil Ferguson |
| What puzzles me for your social events is why are modification details even required? In the UK you drive your car in these social events on your own insurance and within the national road user regulations. The entry forms are usually very basic: contact details, car type and year. Extra information is optional for the participants programme and purely for the interest of others. You pay your fee, get a route map and plaque, and off you go. If you don't want to raise your bonnet for display before and after the event, then so be it. As Neil says, petty minded bureaucracy. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| There is a joke told that asks "What is the difference between a Porsche and a porcupine" The punch line being "On the porcupine the pricks are on the outside" This joke is funny because of the bit of truth it exploits about snobbish car owners. The attraction to MGs has always included a inclusive and affable attitude found among the owners. As the price and "exclusivity" of cars go up I have noticed that that attitude of snobbery does also. I hope that the attitude espoused by those running the meet at the core of this discussion does not permeate our brotherhood. I also would hope that the pious pricks in control of this event lose their "little Napoleon" attitude and grow up. There is actually a bit of scripture in my religion the reads "We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion" |
| R J Brown |
| LOL That is a great quote from your sciptures R.J. spot on Here is the truth about the MG Brand! Myself and R.J are at totally different ends of the spectrum with regard to religion, wars and nationalism. (I believe in dinosaurs and 18 billion year old earth) LOL However we both have a passion for MGs and this passion brings us together I hope in a way that excludes all our other differences. We both agree and I am sure any other right thinking individual would that a modified car is a modified car. What then is the difference between an MGA fitted with a 4.6 litre ford V8 and one fitted with a Honda twin cam? How can one car be classed as an MGA simply because at sometime a 4.6 litre ford V8 has been installed into a production MG (An SV in this case) yet the second is not?. Any body who can develop such rules I am afraid must be on the edge of lunacy? I am sorry for any offence but I am staggered! |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| Back when we had a local MGA club (sadly-it is no more), the requirements for membership did not require owning an MGA, but simply having an appreciation for them. We had several members with no MGA. They had full membership benefits, were welcome to all club gatherings and there was no snobery shown toward them by others. Even members who owned MGA's were not required to drive their cars to any club event, yet they still came. Many events included families and they took the family car out of practical needs rather than the MGA. I believe that this welcoming attitude still prevails for most of the MG family around the world. |
| Chuck Schaefer |
| Wow Gary, some very positive reactions and support for you (and others) with a modified MGA. I guess you've held back from commenting but will still be watching this thread with interest, as will others that have posted here. May I ask you to comment just once more and let us know IF the committee of the Australian MG Nationals have seen the error of their pre-historic ways and invited you to join in with the events you previously entered (in a suitable class) and of course the road run. Thanks, Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| Apart from the comments on the threads, I have also had numerous encouraging emails, all giving support not just for me on the subject of my car, but also on the lack of any modernistic approach to the MG scene in Australia. There appears to be no MG Council or body controlling events here, just a very loose group who meets for breakfast after each National Meeting, pats everyone on the back, and it's "see you next year". Surprisingly, I have had emails of support from MGB owners, obviously with modified cars of some sort. Yes Mark, IF the "committee" reviewed the position and offered an official entry, I would consider it..highly unlikely though to be forthcoming though! Interesting also, the Honda S2000 Club has indicated their support for me joining their Club. Does that say something? |
| Gary Lock |
| But Gary, will they see your S2000 with MGA chassis and body to be a true Honda S2000...? Hmmmmm? Mark. ;-) |
| M T Boldry |
| Just for you overseas guys and others interested THE RULES for National Meeting classes Please understand that these are for the annual National Meeting only ----------- 6.2 MG SPECIALS These cars will compete in one of two classes and classification will be by body type. These classes are Pre MGA and Post MGTF. Modifications that are allowed in the production class carry over to MG Specials. In the event of any disagreement, the scrutiny team and / or their appointed eligibility officer will decide on the final classification a) The MG chassis or the complete monocoque body must be retained. (Note: Buchanan style bodied cars or similar would run as Specials). Cycle guards, removal of bonnet sides and mudguard flaring is permitted. Bumper bars are not required. A windscreen is required for both front seats. b) Non-standard cylinder head castings (i.e. not produced by MG, BMC, Leyland or British Leyland) are permitted. c) Supercharging/turbo charging is permitted. d) Two or more seats are to be fitted. e) The vehicle will have all equipment to make it able to be road registered. f) The original type of suspension must be used and mounted by the original fixing points. g) Shock absorbers and attachments are free. h) Wheels are free. i) Pre MGA Specials: will retain 4 wheel drum brakes if fitted with a solid front axle and use an appropriate MG or silhouette engine built before 1972. Tyres must comply with the CAMS Manual Section 8 / Historic Cars. Note: 6.2 Parts (d) and (e) do NOT apply to Pre MGA Specials. (DM 2006). j) Post TF Specials: The type of MG or silhouette engine is free. The brakes are free. Rear discs if fitted, are free. Tyres are free. If a P76 V8 engine is in a MGB it is classified as a Post TF Special. 6.3 SUPER SPECIALS Super Specials is a development class over which the Directors of the meeting have an overall discretion on eligibility. Any potential Super Special competitor must complete the details of the vehicles’ modifications on the entry form. a) Any vehicle not qualifying as a production vehicle or MG Special. b) The vehicle must be based on an MG chassis or MG monocoque body and must be powered by an MG engine (or appropriate silhouette). c) Brakes, suspension, wheels and tyres, gearbox and differential are free. d) Only one seat needs to be fitted. |
| William Revit |
| William Is 'silhouette' defined more exactly in your rules. Strictly speaking a silhouette is the outline figure cast by an object's shadow. So, for example, a silhouette of the B-series engine will always be a B-series engine. Steve |
| Steve Gyles |
| Gary, Could you please post some photos of your MG ONDA for those of us who haven't seen it. Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| Mike, I seem to be unable to load pictures due to the size (and my lack of computer knowledge), but if you can let me know your email, I will send a couple to you, and then maybe you can load them? Thanks, Gary. |
| Gary Lock |
| I've popped over from the MGB area as Gary has posted the same poser there. I'd very much like to see this car at the 2011 National Meeting too. It could have been useful as an example of the way forward with the marque and as an event marketing piece. However, it does not fit with the Supplementary Regulations published for the event, so can't compete. Nevertheless. I can't understand why Gary is not permitted, as a social entrant, to use the car on the (purely social) Kimber Run. I could understand them knocking back my MX-5 but, Gary's car is, as far as I can tell, clearly identifiable as an MGA. Gary and all those who believe that the Specials or Super Specials class rules should be reviewed to include vehicles like Gary's, should make formal submissions to the 2011 National Meeting Committee. It's pointless bleating about it on this forum. Gary, please bring the car on one of the MGCCQ runs sometime. There's one coming up on Sunday 20 Mar 11 and a midweek run on 23 Mar 11. Details are on the website calendar and you're more than welcome to join with us. I'd love to see it. John |
| J Tait |
| Steve Yep silhouette is exactly that It all boils down to if you have a pre MGA bodied car the engine you can use is any MG engine or a derivative of one,such as Austin, or whatever ran these basic engines up to a 1972 model. This allows for such things as say a TC with a B series engine or even an MGC engine but the cutoff date is there to stop the fitting of V8's into roadgoing T types etc. A fair call I reckon In post MGTF specials the choice of MG engines or derivatives of them is basically free allowing for V8 engined cars , keeping in mind that both these classes are designed for road registerable cars, but not necessarily registered Then there is Super specials which allows for heavier modifications than for the above classes You would run in this class if you had disc brakes on a T type or a V8 in a pre MGA car or if your car was that highly modified say in the suspension or only had one seat etc, that it didn't fit in the other classes. A lot of work has gone into forming these classes over the years to make it fair for everyone. The whole thing is there to keep the MG National Meeting ALL MG and under control For example there are no Sprites and why not cause they are not MG's There are 51 other weekends in the year where other cars are encouraged to compete and more than welcome but the MG in MG Nationals speaks for itself Cheers Willy |
| William Revit |
| Gary Lock, - If you would send me your pictures I would be happy to create a web page specifically for your car. I would do this in great detail as far as you can supply pictures and matching motes and comments. Barney Gaylord 1958 MGA with an attitude http://MGAguru.com |
| Barney Gaylord |
| Gary, if I were you I would take Barney up on his offer of a page dedicated to your MGA on his MGA Guru website. Once your car is on there, its an MGA! No question! If you are having problems uploading your pictures to this forum you can download an "image re-sizer" program that you can use to reduce the megapixels down in size so that they will be accepted on this site. I use "VSO Image re-sizer 4" which is free to download and which I have successfully used to upload my pics onto this forum. You may have to reduce them in size a little at a time to get them to upload. Whichever way you do it, I am really looking forward to seeing how your car looks. Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Having just read Willy's post above, I fear the MG Nationals as an event will decline in popularity if the rules as currently laid out are retained. I've never been, nor am I likely to go, but I'm sure lots of people out there would prefer to see it live on and enjoy their annual pilgrimage to meet their friends and meet new ones. MGCC(UK)have for many years run an International gathering once a year at Silverstone. It's always been a very popular event and the 'biggie' on the MGCC calender. Sadly over a number of years, numbers started to drop and the event looked like it may dwindle into nothing but a memory until the MGCC committee looked carfully at the format and revamped it... Today we know it as 'MG Live' and once again, it is a stunning and VERY popular event. http://www.mgcc.co.uk/mg-racing/race-info-topmenu-78/mg-live-2011.html (Note... Sprite in the advertising..) Maybe the committee of the Australian MG Nationals should consider looking at the format for MG Live and update their game.... You'll have a MUCH better event and far better attended...... Oh finally Willy, just for the record... The MGCC regard a Sprite and a Midget as one and accept into their club events. Mark. |
| M T Boldry |
| Long thread, most of it irrelevant to the point. The S2000 powered MGA doesn't qualify under the rules of the meet. QED. Argue that they should change the rules if you wish, but the rules as posted appear to be perfectly clear - so clear that anyone should be able to tell if their car would be legal or not going in. A non-MG engined car is not. Look to me like an odd set of rules and personally I like the idea of an S2000 powered MGA, but as long as they are clearly written, they mean what they say. The thread should have been titled "Would you write rules like this?" Then most of the discussion would have been on point. |
| Bill Spohn |
| A couple of pics of Gary's car to wet your appetite before Barney gets his page together! Mike  |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| And of course the controversial engine! Mike  |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| I was rather hoping for message #100, but I'll settle for #99? I have just posted pictures of Gary's "MG_ONDA" car, along with some additional notes about other non-standard equipment installed. See here: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/power/pp511.htm I have only one personal comment on this situation. As I always say, before you start throwing money at the car, figure out which sanctioning organization you want to run with and read the rule book first. I understand there is no designated class for this car in the Australian "Nat" meets, as the rules clearly state that the car must have some form of MG related engine. If you remove all restrictions from the Super Specials class you could end up with some really obscene combinations of parts trying to pass off as an MG. The question is only where and how to draw the dividing line. In this case the organization has clearly defined the engine type requirement for any competitive class. I still don't know why this car was barred from the Kimber Run. Is there some competitive judging involved there, like scoring a gimmick rally or visitor's choice voting for a trophy? |
| Barney Gaylord |
| Just to round off the 100 posts - the Kimber Run is a social event only - see extract from Nat. Meeting Supplementary Regulations below (required for events as part of the approval system /insurance under Confederation of Australian Motor Sport). There is another competition event - Touring Assembly - that is a sort of navigation trial that people can enter in lieu of the Hill Climb but the Kimber Run is only social. 15.5 KIMBER RUN - Monday 25th April 2011 CAMS Permit No: 211/2604/01 Senior Officials: Director: Ken Short ph: (02) 49504340 THE EVENT Description: The event is a non-competitive social run enabling participants the opportunity to enjoy a casual drive through some of the local attractions. This is not a competition event and participants in this event will not earn any points towards their centre’s cumulative result for entering. Start and Route: The Social Tour will commence from Bar Beach Car Park Memorial Drive Merewether commencing at 9.00 am and travel via a scenic all bitumen route to the Hunter Valley Gardens Pokolbin. A show bag package, including route and tourism information, maps and lunch information will be provided to each driver at the starting point. Passengers may be carried up to the legal seating capacity of the vehicle. The driver must be the holder of a current Civil Drivers license. The Results: There will not be any results calculated for this event and no awards on the day are applicable. Mike |
| Mike Ellsmore |
| I installed a MG engine in my MGA. Well kind of anyway. Lyle  |
| Lyle Jacobson |
| Lyle, A beautiful car, too. And didn't NAMGAR give you grief at GT 28 in Oregon? Ken |
| k v morton |
| I'm not overly bothered who this offends or why it may offend. But I would simply invite yourself to a committee meeting and announce the words "F**K YOU" at a decent volume. Then set in place the beginnings of a new club or be active within another in creating an event that will leave the current one in the shadows. Ensure a welcoming and social attitude and it would undoubtedly succeed if stuck up ar*eholes with the attitudes above remain in a position of power within the current club. However childish this may seem, our local club has members and competitors which have never and probably never will own a classic, nevermind an MG. Leave the snobbery and chrome polishers to their Sunday shows and picnic runs. As I said, I don't care if this offends anyone, if someone wishes to join in the event then the event should accommodate!!!! |
| PeterJMoore |
| Peter Peter Peter There isn't a problem really, You will notice not many Australians are bothering with this thread , the reason being it's been bought up nearly every year by someone wanting a class for their car Everyone (or most ) are happy to play the game with the rules that are in place Gary's car is undoubtedly a fine looking MGA but as mentioned earlier he was warned early on in it's build that it wouldn't comply with the rules as they stand at the moment What he should be doing is contacting his local club delegate on the natmeet committee and getting the subject raised at the delegates conference and hopefully for him getting some sort of new class introduced for next year. Or maybee two super special classes, one for the cars that comply to the current rules and another for cars like Gary's that don't fit anywhere at the moment If he really wanted to run this car this year he should have pushed his case forward at last years meeting I feel a bit sorry for him not being able to run it, I've been in the exact same position in the past but that's life and thems the rules Another preblem is that if there is a new class introduced to accomodate this car , Next year someone will have a different problem and want a class for their car and we end up with as many classes as there are entries It all needs to be done carefully By the committee which are normal people putting forward the ideas of their local clubmembers on their behalf Cheers Willy |
| William Revit |
| Gary, I have just seen the photos of your car and if it would help at all ill give you a swop for mg 1800 mga, no need to thank me now just let me know when i can get my hands on your car, Vin |
| Vin Rafter |
| Peter, yes, there will be a full submission made on this, and I hope the "delegates" (remember, there is NO registered official MG committee or Council in Australia) spend some time on looking at the WHOLE situation on National Meeting classes. A couple of Natmeets back, there was a decision to hold a conference in Sydney to look at the whole area of Nat Meets...guess what,as far as I know, it didn't go ahead! I agree, the number of classes needs to be looked at, and others introduced. e.g. we have classes for "pull handle" MGB's...why can't we just have mgb roadsters (chrome and rubber put together), the same with BGT's. MGA's should have roadsters and Coupes put together....the only difference is the top! And Peter, your comment on "not many Australians" bothering with this thread, is that all overseas regions have already seen the light, and allowed "Variants" into the scene in some form or other...that's why so many overseas correspondents have made the various comments in favour. Lets see what happens at Newcastle! |
| Gary Lock |
| I made a comment on rules and bureaucracy earlier on and just opened this thread again to read comments like William's above....he really does not get it at all. You would think he was describing the rules to design a nuclear power station. Time to throw those volumes away,William , and get real with some simple rules ( two lines at most) for what is supposed to be a fun activity.... I met someone like William a week ago on the other side of a counter when I went to register my heavily modified 1974 jeep in an RTA office in NSW . |
| Neil Ferguson |
| Neil "someone like William" - a bit personal but I can cop that You've got me all wrong I'm all for progressing the natmeet (remember this is only one weekend a year we are talking about here) I'm right into modified car If you only knew how much flak I've copped from the purists over the years but I don't think Gary is realy helping his situation by making it bigger here If he really wants change maybee he should put his hand up and get on the natmeet committee and make some forward thinking suggestions. My own personal view is that if he dislikes so much about the natmeet including the guidelines under which it exists why is he so hellbent on getting an entry in the first place It's because it's a fantastic annual event for the purist MG owner and that is what it is designed to be I'm over this Over and out Willy |
| William Revit |
| Can someone please help me understand? Gary's MGA is an MGA with a non standard engine. There is already a class for MGAs with non standard engines? is that right? However that class only allows CERTAIN non standard engines such as Buick V8s, Ford V8s and also K series straight 4s and V6s Now hypocracy apart surely it is a simple matter and ought to be done by any sane member of a committee that fundamentally a Honda twin cam MGA is absolutely no different to a K Series or V8 powered MGA. That IMO is the issue. That said most of the enthusiasts who have posted here are not involved with this event and ought therefore to reserve comment. However the rules are so strange that most I suspect have trouble understanding the logic and just feel compelled to comment. IMO the person who wrote these rules obviously had a V8 powered car that he did not want to see beaten so made sure it was at the top of the tree. :) convince me they didn't! |
| Bob Turbo Midget England |
| Ken, Thanks for the kind words. Yes the NAMGAR wouldn't let me enter the GT-28 altered class, display only. They said no V8s, only 1800 MGB engines. At the Whistler BC. GT-32 they did let me enter the altered class. Lyle |
| Lyle Jacobson |
| Lyle, Apparently NAMGAR saw the error of their ways after GT-28. I think Bob Samyn's Corvette-powered MGA coupe was allowed in the altered class at GT-30 in Mackinaw City. Bob told me that Carroll Shelby inspired him to built his car in 1965. Bob's car has real patina! Ken  |
| k v morton |
| Bob It's not about V8's at all it's about Mg's with MG bodies and if you do an engine swap it has to be an MG based engine Motorsport in Australia is contrlled by CAMS Confederation of Australian Motor Sport and all clubs that run motorsport events are tied to them for good or bad. During the year you can run at almost any event anywhere in the country with whatever you take along but as I mentioned earlier this one event which is rotated around different MG car clubs each year is restricted to MG's only to try and preserve the marque as much as possible Everyone that goes to this event enjoys it as it is really I can remember back when the first MGnatmeet was held here in Tassy and all sorts of cars ran , from memory the first MG in the speed event came about 7th or 8th after a heap of Lotus and Jags. It was after this meeting it was decided to restrict entries to MG only I put it to you like this If you race a 12 foot sailboat, you can race against everyone in any size boat all year but when it comes to the 12 foot boat championships your boat has to be 12 foot -- not 13 foot or 11 foot 3 and a half exactly 12 I'm done Cheers Willy |
| William Revit |
| Willy, To continue with mixed metaphors, I don't have a dog in this race. But you're not talking about the size of the boat, you're talking about the power of the sail. What difference is there in who makes the sail? 200 horsepower is 200 horsepower; Rover, Ford, or Honda matters not in competition. It is their club; they can make their rules. Banning Mr. Lock from the Kimber Run, a social tour, seems a might bit petty though. Ken |
| k v morton |
| I dont understand why they will not allow your MGA on the Kimber run if it purely a social event with no element of competition, I am certain that most MG owners would be really interested to look at your car, I know I certainly would! As for the competitive race, sprints and hillclimb events etc, I would have thought that the simple solution with the rules as they stand, is to let you race your car but not on a point scoring basis. So that way you could all enjoy your racing, no one can claim "unfair advantage" and you can all continue having a great time with your MGAs. If that works, how about a handicap system to level the playing field on the track, or even better, a class for "very" modified MGAs or a Formula Libre race? Lots of ideas, hopefully some useful ones and, you never know, it may encourage even more MGs onto the tracks. Cheers Colyn |
| Colyn Firth |
| Hi Willey I am afraid it is about V8 engines cos if it wasn't you would not need to have twisted rules such as MG engines? There is no such thing as you are well aware. The only thing Unique to MG was the body! ironically the thing that is being discussed here. Everything else was used by BMC etc on many other vehicles. How ironic is that. If it were not for the fact I suspect of V8s then the rules would simply say modified engines of original type so for example bored out engines that are cammed etc would be the only things acceptable. With the rules written as they are fundementally those who want to win can simply fit a V8!! |
| Robert (Bob) Midget Turbo |
| William you and your organization are a bunch of hypocrites and that is what the outrage is about. If its not a BMC B block engine it is not MGA. To allow a BUICK engine but not a Honda is PURE hypocrisy. Just because 2587 MGB GTs got BUICK engines doesn't make it a Pure MGA. On the other hand the MGA conversions ARE true to the MG spirit in ways you refuse to see. Early MGs were modified new by individuals and the factory. The problem is you are not true to either side. Not true to purity in an original sense. Not true to the spirit of experimentation that existed at MG when the A was developed. To allow a list of engine in as pure simply because some future corporate owner used that engine in a car who's name resembled MG is sort of silly. By your logic any engine ever made by NanJing, the current owner of MG, is fair game. And according to this "Nanjing Auto acquired some assets of MG Rover Group and Powertrain Ltd in 2005 after the group had entered administration. According to the purchase agreement, Nanjing Auto bought MG, Austin and some other dormant British car brands, and the production technology and equipment for the MG ZT and MG TF models. Some equipment and blueprints were repossessed by Honda, as the Honda's intellectual property was used in some of MG Rover's vehicles, in particular, the Rover 45 and MG ZS which were based on the Honda Domani. Since Honda and MG/Rover shared engines any Honda engine might therefore be fair game. MG did sell Honda cars but called them MG ZS. Following the logic espoused in the game six degrees of Kevin Bacon any part from any car is probably related to any other so why bother anything goes! I think a common sense answer is there are 3 level. #1 Stock, #2 B block powered Specials #3 Super Specials, any engine. Take NASCAR for example Did you ever see a rear wheel drive V8 engined Camry? Lighten up and have some FUN. |
| R J Brown |
| I have been following this thread since the beginning but have kept quiet until now - but RJ has just summed it all up in his last sentence - I too bought my MG to have FUN. |
| Cam Cunningham |
| Ken I agree with you I can't see why Gary can't go on the Kimber run either Bob Yeah there were all sorts of engines in MG's and I can see what you are saying points towards V8's but as the rules are at the moment at least it stops people going overboard and say for example turning up with a BGT with a big block Chev. or something crammed into it This is where the MG based engine rule stops things getting out of control Remember this meeting is basicaly the national concours with competition events thrown in (did I say that) It really is a good fun weekend. RJ Cam Be nice to me I'm only little NASCARS are just a little different from what we are on about here We're all in it for fun and I enjoyed your Honda session but under the rules set down for this and previous years -the engine has to have been an option in a factory MG ,and by the way, - these rules are voted in by the delegates who are a single member from each club competeing at the event ( 17 MG car clubs ), representing the views and desires of the members in their particular club Unfortunately for Gary his car doesn't fit a class at the moment which he was well aware of when he started building it and has been mentioned in this thread that he didn't intend trying to enter anyway- On the positive side I've been told he has two other MGA's that he can run so he won't miss out completely I hope he enjoys the event and gets some positives out of it The speed event for this year is a hillclimb and has been limited to the first 100 entries first in first served basis - there will be quite a few missing out because of this Have a look on MGCC Newcastle"s website Up in the RH top corner you can click on natmeet supregs to get an idea of how this event is run I don't really want to go on and on about this I really like this forum and you guys and am just trying to answer your questions with the facts as they are - My personal views vary a bit from what the rules are but they are what the members nationwide voted in Thanks for your interest in this Willy |
| William Revit |
| Guys I hope I don't offend anyone, and I hope someone out there might agree with me, but I have quietly watched and read this thread going along its long and tortuous route and have to say, now, that I think it's gone on long enough. Nice though this modified MGA might be, there must surely be a vast majority of us who just want to read about, and perhaps contribute to, discussion on the standard car, warts and all. Please, please take this discussion elsewhere - it's not as if it hasn't had a reasonable airing by now. In fear of retaliation! Regards all Bruce |
| Bruce Mayo |
| Gee, Bruce. All you have to do is stop reading it. :) |
| JM Morris |
| Sorry Bruce but this tread cannot be taken elsewhere. Just because you don’t agree with or enjoy modifications to standard cars doesn’t mean it’s not welcome here. Simply, don’t read the thread. Trust me I skip a lot of treads about repetitive topics. I’m not sure why somebody would like to see an active discussion stopped simply because it’s longer than other threads. This discussion is about the future of the MG marque, in active clubs, and how clubs have to adapt to changing times. I would like to see the discussion between the 17 clubs address this topic again to see what can change for future events to involve everybody with an interest in MGs. |
| DJ Lake |
| Gary, I can sympathise and at the same time agree witht the organisers of classic events. For the road I think that uprating or updating the car to make it more livable is fine and indeed, when the car is more or less toast anyway, a practical way of saving a chassis from the scrapper. For classic racing I am of the belief that cars should be stock or modified within the capability of the era. If not then there is a likelyhood that to be competitive everyone needs to modify thier chassis to accept Audi Quatro or Subaru Impreza running gear? The biggest wallet will always win. Of course there is always a class somewhere to accept such cars and you have to accept that this modified group will be the only place to compete until an MG unit is in the engine bay. I have modified some of my other cars to keep up with traffic so know there are benefits to this (electronic ignition, uprated brakes, 5-speed box etc.). Stick with it. In another 20 years there will be a growing group of people in the same situation as componants wear out and can not be replaced with similar units? Neil |
| Neil Purves |
| One of my 4 MGAs is a 58 roadster that has 82 RX7 engine and transmission. The car was a bunch of leftover parts from a "proper" restoration on a 57. The work was done in 1988 and the parts were quite current at the time. Today it is easier to get stock parts than 28 year old Mazda parts. The input shaft bearing is starting to get noisy in the trans. Now may be the time for a Different drivetrain. Love the burble of a V8 but "have you driven a S2000?".......... |
| R J Brown |
| Interesting thread from my point of view as I also have a Honda S2000 engined MGA Coupe, and apart from Gary's in Australia there are also at least 2 others in the UK. I did not build my car as competition car but I do use it on the road, on social runs with the MGCC and on track days through MGOT. I have never been turned away from any MGCC social event. When I go on one of the events most people are extremely interested in it and the engineering involved in carrying out the conversion. True I do get the very odd person who thinks that a MGA should be as it came out of the factory but they seem to be to be a very very small minority. Apart from that, it is my car that I have owned for many years so feel I am entitled to modify it as I feel fit. Driving the car and hearing the engine scream up to 9,000 rpm through the gears still makes me laugh everytime I drive it, and that is what it is all about, enjoying the car. Having enjoyed the proceess of carrying out the conversion so much on the MGA I am now starting on a K series Midget. I guess the good thing is that if I took the K series Midget to Australia I would be able to go on a social run. Note to myself, if I ever go back to Australia I must remember to take my K series and not my MGA. |
| R J Myers |
This thread was discussed between 21/02/2011 and 11/03/2011
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