Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.
MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - 3.8 V-6 Newbies A'swapping?
|Any recent converts out there trying the hugely successful 3.8 and/or 3.8 SC 3800 series II or III 90* V6? I'm so impressed with my recently completed ( almost) 3.8 swap, inspired by Don Ziegler from 1999, that I was wondering if any many have stepped across the line sneering at the 90* taboo, to enjoy the smooth power, excellent balance, all under the stock hood, of this very appropriate V-6 swap? Cheerios, VEM|
|Is this the Buick V6?|
|Hey Jim- This is the v-6 with L460E attached out of 2001 Camaro. Came in the Firebird as well. Am told it's the Buick 215 V8 with 2 cylinders lost.So smooth, I'm glad I stayed with the autotrans and still have the T-56 on the shelf. Vic|
That TR8 3.8L V6 Conversion is supposed to be completed in house soon. The TR7/8 has such a nice engine bay for this motor, its strange more people dont try this with these Triumphs. There are still the old Buick 3.8L kits, but the drivelines are so dated compared to teh 96-02 Camaro technology.
I'll let you know when it comes in. I think we may talk to your tuner.
|BMC Brian McCullough|
|Vern, I don't think you've stepped across the line, it's a great engine, but not as common with manual transmission and that's what most of us use in our conversions.|
|So this is what, a Buick V6 with a Chevy bellhousing pattern? Or is it a Buick V6 bolted to a 4L60E that has the Buick pattern (late BOP)?? I'd really like to know. Or is it something else entirely?|
Did GM start making the 4L60E with the BOP pattern or a dual pattern like the 2004r? I agree that would be a nice combination since the Buick V6 should be a bolt in swap other than the headers. I take it this is not the Chevy 90 degree V6? More people probably don't do that swap simply because they don't know anything about it. But it could be the right choice for Edith's car.
The 3800 can trace it's roots back to the Buick 350. So basically it's a latter style Buick V8, with 2 cylinders cut off. Although it has seen quite a few updates over the years.
It's a good engine, which is probably why GM continues to use and develop it.
The 3800 also comes in supercharged form! Mostly in Buicks, but also used in Monte Carlo/Impala SS.
Early versions (pre 1996) used GM/Eaton M62 blowers. After that they use the GM/Eaton M90, which is what I use.
Not sure if it has a BOP or chevy bolt pattern. I'll take a look when I go back to work. It's not something we usually see. As I don't recall ever having to remove a 3800 engine due to an engine failure.
|Bill as you describe it, this is an exceptional engine to be sure as it is the same engine used in the Buick Grand Nationals in injected and turbocharged form, which was capable of producing enormous horsepower. That engine has the late BOP pattern and bolts directly to the 2004r transmission which was the only overdrive automatic available for that engine. I was not aware that GM had ever mated it to the 700r4, or if so rumor was that this transmission would have been a very scarce animal. Assuming it's the same engine we're talking about I'm glad to hear those rumors may be incorrect. Certainly Camaro's with auto trannys would not be scarce, in any year. But that would also mean that a 700r4 would be available which would bolt to any of the late Buick engines, including the 340 SBB and the 455. So I'm wondering how it is that I've not heard of that. OTOH, if the bellhousing pattern was changed that raises some interesting possibilities of it's own. What pattern? Regular Chevy V8 or the same as the 60 degree V6?|
|After a little research, it appears that the older Buick V6 (231, 3.8 and related variations) used the BOP pattern and the later Buick V6 (series II and later 3800) was essentially the same engine with the GM small corporate pattern bellhousing which is the same as the 60 degree V6 and matches the bellhousing used on the small pattern 700r4. The 2004r will not bolt up to this engine as it's dual pattern is BOP/Chevy V8 but it will bolt up to the earlier V6. (There also was one reference to an early odd fire V6 with the 215 pattern, don't know how accurate that is.) The 700r4 which comes in either the small corporate pattern or the Chevy V8 pattern will not bolt up to the early V6. So depending on the year, the Buick V6 uses either the 2004r or the 700r4, but not either.|
|Jim- I'm told the bell is common to the V-8 and therefore the t-5 and t-56. Bill- Yes, it is a good engine, and, I think with my continued fire fan, will become aware as a choice to future swappers.... as Brian notes for the TR. Did you know the chip fryer only charged me $92 for the work? I provided my wish list and he made it so. With the shortened stock driveshaft and narrowed rear axle, the computer still thinks it's in the Camaro. Cheers, Vic|
|A fine example of a Buick turbo V-6 in a MGB is in the January 1983 issue of Hot Rod magazine page 54 intitled Bolch Beauty. There was/is also a Chevrolet derived version of the 90 degree V-6 (also 3.8) similar size and weight that have found their way into LBCs. The 90 degree V-6s are a little more 'old school' than the 60 degree. I have always assumed we got the 60 degree V-6s in order to fit the frount wheel drive space confinements.|
In regards to:
"It's a good engine, which is probably why GM continues to use and develop it."
This has been a great driveline for GM in ecomony, overall performance and life. Its is a bit large in comparision to the 6-60 V6 drivelines and from the understanding I have, the 3.9L 6-60 V6 which has been developed from the 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.5 and now 3.9L is supposed to Supersede the 90 degree 3.8L. It will be phased in over the next couple of years...
|BMC Brian McCullough|
|Keep in mind that the 3.8 is also throtle by wire, meaning that there is no throtle cable, 99 and up.|
some co.'s have a wiring kit that will allow you to transplant the engine, but... as always there is problems. The 3.8 version of the 4.3 is the same just smaller and it uses the corporate bell housing (v8)
Same for the new 60 degree V6 engines, the new ones are by wire.
As for chips, (my own experience) No one can tune or burn a new chip to work just right. The only way to get the correct tune is to have a computer that you can program like the later model GM computers, then you can use the programer from Vortech "The Diablo Predetor" 98-2000 GM are limited 2000 to present you can just about do anything with the Diablo programer
| the bellhousing from the S-10 from 93,94,95 works with the ford 5speed, and the shifter is strat up not like the comero bellhousing which is at 17degs.|
I'm using a93 bonneville 3800 supercharged with ford 5 speed and it works
|Bill- Could you shake out your comment for digestion by us lay folks? Todd, you've a 3.8sc with Sierra 5 speed in an MGB???!??. Wow.Thanx, and cheerios, Vic|
|Hi Bill- I'm told the TBW -put in use for all 2002 GM cars- does help in smoother acceleration, and a smidge better gas mileage with a shorter "throw" at the pedal. So, what could the flash tuner really do on the chip, besides byepassing this or that sensor? Are these webflashers just selling snake oil at the end of the day then???? Cheers, Vic|
PS=Todd you around Boss?
| Hi Vic|
the 5 speed trans is a t5 from a ford, in a 74 mgbgt.
|Hi the 3800 v6 buick has the same bellhousing as the gm (small)metric|
|Yes that is correct. The only way to properly tune a FI engine is with a Lap Top and adjust the fuel maping,how much, when in the rpm range and how much. Also the timing to correspond to the fuel maps and particular engine and driving style.|
Trans shifting timing and how hard you want them to be.
It's like a carb, not all carbs work great on the same engine, some need tuning, jetting, air bleeds etc. Well...the same with a FI engine. That is why it's better to use and aftermarket controller, this whay you can tune the engine correctly. No one can burn a chip and said here it's!!! they burn that chip for a litle bit more advance and maybe more fuel, but all is just a guess.
If you have a OB II then maybe you can use the Diablo Predator programer about $400 this unit can help you with setting the car the way you want, it comes with a factory program that you can change, it will also save the old program if you want to re-install. You just follow the prompts. If you can use the remote control on your TV you then can use the Diablo programer.
|The way I see it Bill, is that 4 yards goes a ways toward a SC on the rebuilt 3800 then!. For myself, having built the swap so my lovely wife can drive an "Ampulent MGB" automatic, I'm really not looking for teeth jarring shifts at 9k RPMs.. Vic|
|Vic, you can also make it shift like a Cady. The point is that you can tune it to your style of driving and economy. That is the wonderful thing about aftermarket ECU's or the new ECU's with a limit of tuneavility. |
Here is an example, Z28 Camaro LS 1 auto. Change diferential to 3:42 speedo was off, shifting was harsh and to soon. Conected the programer, recalibrated the speedo,adjusted the shifitng timing and stiffness.
Now is like it was before, smooth but better performance.
|Bill- Yes, there you go and the better for it! So, have you dared to complete the TR 3.8 swap? Vic|
|will a 3.8 series 3 fit into a 98 gmc Jimmy?|
|Brent- Yes, it will with little fiddle. Just got a note from a gent in BC who is doing a TR swap to 3.8. I think we got a trtend going here! Vic|
Havent been in here in a long while (since my 76 MGB has spun a bearing) I have Owned two Buick Turbo charged Cars since 1987 A truely fun and fast car. Because of a recent accident with one of my Buicks I had picked up another Regular N/A Regal with a recently Rebuilt moter. As I have stripped off most of the parts I needed to put my Buick back on the road I have been staring at that rebuilt moter with the 2oo4r tranny and was wondering if it would indeed fit in my MGB. If anyone has done this swap and can let me know exactly what is involved.. Trans braces/brackets...engine mounts...Drive shafts... Springs... Hood clearence... Wiring....it would be greatly appreciated
I would like do this swap if it were "affordable" And not an overly complicated procedure. Thanks
|Hi Dave-Can you provide a descript of the Buick 87 Turbo engine. Sounds like a 215 V8 and NOT a 3.8 V6. Although both fit in the bigger bay 76-80 MGB, so you're prolly good to go. I found the pan-bottomed 4L60E auto trans behind my 3800 Series II to really fit the tunnel and with the rear cross mount moved forward about 2 inches. Easy! Vic|
|Thanks Vem the moter in question is a 3.8 naturely aspirated 231ci v6. (two barrel) and has the 200R4 trans on it. The turbo moters are also a 3.8 v6 but have many different internal "stronger" parts and are fuel inj.If interested in the turbo moter check out this site Turbobuicks.com I think you will be amazed at how much power and torque could be made from them. My daily driven car runs in the 12s in the quarter mile( not bad for a 4000lb car that gets 26mpg) and many others run much quicker times with very few mods. I have no intention of making the MGB any type of race car but it would be nice to have extra power when needed. Plus I have so many extra 3.8 parts hanging around it would make sense. I guess|
I need to start measuring! But what about the MG its Self- Springs/radaitor/Rear end/body supports/ETC.. or maybe too much weight and power would make the car un comfortable to drive. Decisions decisions... Any input would be helpfull. Thanks
|Dave- My rig with the 3800 series II and L460E weighs 25 # more than the original, or about the same as the MG 1800 with an OD trans, Blue Label 1974-76. Converting to chrome bumpers gets back 110#, so unless your turbo rig is lead plated, the extra weight should be minimal. The 3.8 fits just great and can be installed soas to close the stock hood ( you could save another 38 # by going aluminum hood or perhaps the fiberglass ones being made now. The rad that works is an old Ford Falcon circa 1960-70. I used dogbone mounts welded to the modified front cross. The front cross was narrowed in thickness for the harmonic balancer clearance. Rear trans mount had to be moved forward 2 inches, with new captive nuts welded. It's pan is flat on the bottom and nothing sticks below the floor pan plane.|
Can a turbo be retrofitted to the stock 3.8 or does the short block build need the shorter pistons and lower CR? Vic
|any new news on the 3.8 swap out there
any one looking to swap in a 3800 v6 plz look at these two sites to see what is easly achievable
This thread was discussed between 25/08/2007 and 24/03/2013
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical BBS is active now.