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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Ford engine
|Hey want to start MG project this winter AKA project Ghetto G! Just want to give out a little bit of information on what the MG will be receiving. The motor should be a small block Ford looking at a stroker kit 317-331ci with 11.1 compression. The heads will be Trick Flow race pored with appropriate valve job, high lift custom cam. Headers will have to be custom made is will presume due to the lack of space in the engine compartment. It will be fuel injected with a possibility of having nitrous injection no more then a 100 shot. Rear end will have be an 8.8 ford cut to size willed with 3.55 gears, strange 31 spline axels etc. Don’t forget a real crappy paint job to go along with the theme of the car. I will keep you in the loop as the project comes along.|
|Why use twisted wedge heads which need port work when you can pick up a set of afr 185's and be done with it? If you use ford style injection you have to put in a pretty big hood bulge. Only way out of that is to get one of those throttle body injection setups or use a box uppper intake, but those KILL lower end power. Do you have access to 95-100 octane gas? With 11:1 compression you're gonna need it. Forged crank or cast? H beam rods or I beam? T5 tranny, or tremec? |
Can't just show a lil clevage and not let us see what else is there!
|Heh I have a secret.....|
She was to be unvield this weekend, but I ended up with a blown Brake MC that took me out of the show. I HATE my car sometimes!!!
Tony - Start hanging out in the Stangnet and Corral forums. They will help you with setting up a good motor. I would also recommend the AFR's try www.jdsperformance.com they have alum heads for like $935 SHIPPED! The nice thing about Twisteds, or ANY of the bigger MFG heads is that you can buy off the shelf a cam, heads, intake package that is tuned to run together.. TUNE is everything.. a mismatched system does not run well and will be frustrating to tune. Been there DOING THAT...
For EFI if you want a stock hood you are VERY limited. In fact the only thing that will fit is a 94/95 mustang GT Intake. Even dropping my motor 1/2 inch which menat dropping the steering rack also, nothing else would fit. SO your options would be use a HOLLEY Pro-Jection, which would be programmable which is nice, or maybe doing a spyder intake which is a carb intake with injector ports welded in then a TB for a carb.
On my car the EFI distributors would not fit until I also dropped the motor that 1/2" Box uppers ar no help in fact some of them due to being narrow are taller than stock units. Depending on the cam, losing some low end torque might not be a bad idea heh
I would recommend going lower in gears depending on what trans you use. In the spreadshet I have that does gearing, I looked at a stock mustang, then crossreference the RPM vs Speed to the MGB. The MGB due to it's tire size will run about one gear set lower than a mustang. Most T5 guys like to run 3.55+, so we would want 3.27 most AOD guys run 3.73+ so we would want 3.55..
Lots of information yes, just trying to share what I have found over this process and hanging with the mustang crowd both net and loacl over the last year..
ANYWAY view that page, you can see what I have done. Got lots of tuning left to do because of the wierd ECU/motor combo, but she runs!!!
|Hey Larry how about I am a stang guy (owned mustang since 91 including SC ones) that just picked up an MG. However thank you for pointing out site I have been members of since the late 90's they do have a wealth . Actually I have been wanting to do a kit car (Shelby cobra one) however fell on a free MG and thought I would just put a little something in it. Why the trick flows just like them prob do with the high ports. I know the other ones are cheaper and CNC ported from the company. 3.55 gears are fine for what I am wanting not a drag queen. Anyways if you are still interested in hearing what about my project I will keep you up to date. If not I will enjoy it and possibly post pictures when I am done. Also it is a ghetto project so I will get an old hood and work something up with sheet metal.|
|Larry I just looked at your site. I like the EFI in your car. Thanks for posting it. I may be pciking you mind on putting my project together.|
|Cool deal tony, then you are way ahead of the game!! I am a TOTAL SBF fan now after working on them.|
I was just trying to share info I ran into on mine. It has taken almost a year to get it to fit under the hood, though if your willing to mod the hood, the sky is the limit!!! The stangnet crowd especally locally has been ir-replacable..
On the EFI I would recommend dropping the engine the extra 1/2 like I did as the 5.0 distributor then fit, but I already had the crank fire system in hand so ran with it, also if you do a cowl like the one on the other fast MG thread you won't have that issue!!
Let me know what happens.. I am still dreaming about a low budget MGB GT drag car. got line on a 5.8L EFI completle with trans for $250, know of a rusted up local GT, hrmmm heh should be fun..
Ghetto is cool man, I can appreciate it heh best of luck and keep in touch!!
so if you went carbed and not efi would you still have the hood clearance issue? I'm watching closely 'cause I'd like to do a 302 sbf eventually, and I won't mind staying carbed.
I have just completed my 302 conversion on my 79B am using carb and it all fits under hood with no probs.I am using Edelbrock Alum heads and intake and Edelbrock (Carter) carb with dropdown air cleaner with 2 1/4 in filter.
I have a T5 transmission and D & D GM differential with posi and 3.08 gears
Car runs very quickly and smooth.
But driver cant stop grinning !
All the best
|I ran her carb'd for a year. Check out the back sections of my diary I go over pretty much everything, from a complete novice perspective... Had the same issues as the Buick guys, very low hood clearance. I dod not try allot of distributors, but the Mallory unilite fit, though I had to take out the hood crossmember as is went exactly over the distributor. I used a 1" drop base filter with a 2" K&N filter and one of the k&n Xstream tops. I had the choke removed from both the Halloey and the carter, Holley was milled, Carter I just removed the hardware.|
|Gil, thanks and congrats-how long did it take?|
Larry, your link to full details of build up doesn't work. I definitely want to check it out when it's back up!
If you take the comma off the end of Larry's hyperlink, it will work.
|I can get most of the site; It's this link that I can't get|
maybe it's my computer. Let me know if it works for you
|Your link doesn't work for me, either.|
This one does:
Some of the go here links on that page don't work for me, though. I guess Larry is busy in the garage. :)
Read his V8 Dairy for more info:
Some of your hyperlinks need fixing. The uppercase letters need to be changed to lowercase for them to work.
|it is a damn upper/lowercase issue. I have been fighting it for a while. FP like to do it's own thing sometimes when I am editing.. I will try to skim through the site and see what need repair.. I know the index one if the caps on the techroom.. needs to be all lower case..|
I bought the 79B last August worked at it fairly steady until cold weather set in here in north NY and as no heat in my garage could only do minor work until spring.Had hoped to be on road by mid- June but have only just finished it to be driveable now.
Lots of minor setbacks but this site is a wealth of info and help--not to mention encouragement, but end results are well worth the effort! So go for it Eric and good luck!
|For those who are using a Ford 5.0, what are you using for exhaust headers?|
They will have to be made either by you or a local shop that makes headers.
|If a conversion kit was available, which included, motor mounts, exhaust headers, trans mount/crossmember etc.|
Who would be interested ?
1969 MGB 302 V8
|I'd be interested.|
|I would be interested. I am almost convinced that I should use the Ford 302 rather than the Rover that I have. Ford would be much easier to modify.|
|dear pete i would be interested. larry am doing a 76 mgb with a 302 on the body right now but making good progress. made what i call a mg rotesary to spin car around to sand blast hard to reach spots. will be on drivetrain shortly any advice would be appreciated. like your motor mounts might use your idea if you dont mind. bob in maine|
|Well the 302 is just about complete. Has anyone looked at pro topline heads? They are priced right and have excellent flow. They have only been available for chevy's but have just come out with SBF heads. They have 195 runners. They are Ausie heads.|
Check out their flow numbers. WWW.protopline.com
|Sorry guys, I went back and double checked and they are 180 runners|
There seems to be a growing interest in the 302 conversion. I've had some recent correspondance from Justin in Detroit, and he and I are already planning about moving into the sbf engine. Having a well thought out conversion kit available would be a bonus.
Driving Steve Carrick's 302 conversion a couple of weeks ago was a major selling point!
|<<<Driving Steve Carrick's 302 conversion a couple of weeks ago was a major selling point!>>>|
No doubt! :)
I don't know how you could calculate how many kits would sell. I do believe that the number of Ford-powered MGs would go waaay up if there was a kit available to make it a bolt-in procedure. Probably would see some 215s get replaced with 302s, as well. Most of us aren't fabricators, but we can turn wrenches.
|The only thing preventing the 302 from BURYING the bop/r 215 is exhaust. The motor mounts are simply a cut off, and weld on affair, and can be handled by most anybody with a mig welder and a measuring tape. But exhaust.... That's still a bear. Someone comes out with a kit that includes the motor mounts that need to be welded, and the exhaust manifolds, and that's all she wrote. We'll all be running around with 302's stroked out to 347ci with 30lb injectors and 75mm throttle bodies. People will be taking mg's to drag strips and winning against an awful lot of street cars. What do our cars weigh? 2400 lbs? We could take a crashed mustang and use it as the donor car. 302, T5, 8.8" rear end..... sell the rest of the car off in parts to help recoup the costs.... Imagine taking an 88 mustang LX 5.0 and shaving over 1,000 lbs off the weight, and tossing it on a track... That's basically what we have on our hands. |
|Mine was 2420lbs last year with a full tank of fuel and a big toolbox and spare in the trunk.. That is on a calibrated state run multi axle weigh station so I know it is correct.|
As for a kit. It would really be best to just make it a full crossmember affair. My mounts are off the K member Yes whoever wants can do that, I have no vested interest of patents etc guys, steal away, I got ida from Dale spooner.. This would make it a "bolt in" affair, plus by having the mount ins exactly the same place in a controlled way (no installer error) you can then have a jig made to make the headers all the same and it becomes a bolt in affair. I am willing to bet if I pulled my K member from my car I could bolt it into any 77+ car and everything would fit after header exit holes were cut. You would have to cut off the stock motor mounts though wihich is easy. I also like the K member mount as with my Ford the rack clearances to the balancer are tight. I am 100% metal to metal mounted to the K member, so if the motor moves, the k member and rack all move the same way, no rubbing issues. I get my vibration isolation from the rubber K member pads...
I would LOVE to see someone do a kit. I know a number of people are looking into Tube K members, and that would be a great combination.. I even recommended to a few that they sould make it "modular" so that the customer could bolt on different motor mounts for different engines, THAT would probably greatly offset the $$ for making the tubular as would have a much larger customer base for the base model k member
As for racing and beating everyone.. in bracket racing yes, but unfortunately our cars due to thier light weight and limited tire room do not launch very well.. However I am not letting that stop me from having a blast twisting some tails!!! heh and why stop @ 347??? I got an article that outlines using a 351C crank and some other stock stuff with machining to get 355!!! YEHAA!!!!!
Parts cars are the way to go.. Whatch the papers for public announcements of auctions for wrecked and abandoned cars.. I got a wrecked 91 mustang LX for $385 DELIVERED.. That is going into the other project.. the Next MG project will be a car to get some attention at the track..... HEH I just need to find the chassis to start with.
|A kit would be great...but..if I were the one marketing it, I would certainly check my liability insurance if a cross member were to be included! There are way too many hungry attorneys out there! rick|
|Thanks for all of the feedback.|
Keep a look out for future updates on the BBS for the 302/5.0 Conversion kit.
1969 MGB 302 V8
Crossmemember or not you better check your insuarance.. there is always something man, ALWAYS. Engine mount, guy could have a weake frame that tweaks under hard accel throwing aligment or crakcing the frame.. Best bet is a big disclaimer sheet out with the pruduct in bright Orange etc, all sorts of liability disclaimers and definitely "FOR OFF-ROAD USE ONLY. NOT LEGAL FOR HIGHWAY USE." If you read all the aftermarket parts for any muscle car, they will have that in there someplace. so if there is an accident on a public road they are out of the woods as they did not certify or approve it for road use..
|In my opinion, disclaimers are not worth the paper they are written on...best to have actually coverage...especially if you want to keep your home and cars! rick|
|Lots of you know I'm an insurance agent, and unfortunately, disclaimers don't mean a whole lot. Some slick legal manuvering, and a high dollar attorney and the game is over. The "sue happy" environment we live in keeps a lot of great ideas from emerging out of the darkness, and honestly I can't blame the creators of those products. If I had a cool idea for a part for our cars, probably the most I would ever do is give out instructions on how to do it. (Unless it was going to make me millions, then I'd get all the liability insurance and all that "stuff") Liability and business insurance (post 9/11) is horrifically expensive. Many small companies routinely pay over $50,000 a year for a couple million dollar liability policy, and it would seem to me the automotive industry is more susceptible to litigation then really anyone else (except maybe doctors). |
I was talking to one of our attorneys a few days ago and she was telling me about a case in New York where a husband accidentally backed over his child in their lease car and killed them. The mother sued the automaker for leasing the vehicle to her husband, and won a million dollars. If that doesn't make you sick, I don't know what will.
Kits a great idea, give me exhaust, and engine mounts, and tranny mounts, but I'll stick to the crossmember myself. Maybe that way the product will hit the market before 2010.
|WTH!?!? What grounds did she base THAT lawsuit on??? I mean he had to be mentally incompetent, blind etc..??|
Man that is just plane crazy. I should be able to Sue the US Govt then for not creating a device or pill to give me immortality then?
Key would be to fully incorporate the venture. Make sure everything is covered in that regard, design test and redesign. Would require a number of donor chassis to stress test beyond any practical limit. Then disclaimer (even if think are useless). If I had the time to devote to doing it, OR the knowledge of car design etc, I would pursue it.
|Thanks, Justin....my sentiments EXACTLY. No one ever said that the world was fair. rick|
|There are ways to protect yourself from the liability problems, but being afraid is not the answer. Incorporation is helpful but expensive. Disclaimers are helpful but mainly only as a deterrent. Insurance companies settling based on calculated risk promotes questionable claims, and a good legal defense is expensive enough to bury a beginning company. If you assume you will be sued you have one hand tied behind your back going in, but if you do not and you are wrong you have a problem. How you resolve this depends on how much of a risk taker you are. Incorporation is probably the best protection for the money but then you have to follow the rules to prevent "Piercing the corporate veil" and make darned sure you have no reason to imagine someone could be hurt by your product. Most places incorporation can be done for around a grand. Considering that a state of the art front crossmember and suspension would cost well over that much, anyone planning to sell those should incorporate. If the product is headers it might not be so clear cut, and if the header maker is supplying the K-member maker who is selling a kit the picture changes again. And if you're just selling onesy-twosys to your buddies and don't have enough unencumbered assets to make an attractive target what attorney will be interested?|
I think there's plenty of manoevering room for someone who wants to introduce a new product.
|Very good points Jim!!|
|Very good points indeed. Incorporating *should* be sufficient to release a corporate officer of any liability, but I think the recent enron, tyco, mci, and arthur anderson scandals have laid that theory to rest. Maybe my back ground as an insurance agent keeps me overly conservative in this regard, but the idea of that kind of liability scares the bageezus out of me. :( On the counterpoint, A good attorney goes for the deepest pockets, and if the deepest they can possibly get is a common guy with a house, a car or two, and maybe a pension. They won't be as likely to persue them. But it's still possible.... If someone can find a way to release themself of the liability involved with producing these kinds of products, I think that's great. I'd love to see how they did it, so I can help advise clients in the future. |
I still want motor mounts and exhaust headers though ;)
|The problem with enron et al is that the executives had knowledge of wrongdoing. There simply is no way to shield yourself from your own acts of greed, malice and other socially unacceptable behavior, nor should there be. However, if you are acting in good faith, keeping your corporate duties separate from your personal life, and using all reasonable methods available to you to produce a product that is safe, your personal liability for unforseeable results will extend only as far as your investment in the corporation. This is what the term "Corporate Veil" refers to. Wrongdoing will allow the claimant to "pierce" this veil to attach your personal assets.|
|Great points guys.. yes the MCI, worldcom, enron came down to they blatantly broke laws and intentionally did things improperly, no mere oversite or mistakes.|
|The real problem with a V8 kit is the customer who will install a V8 with more hp than the chassis can handle.|
If a kit is develop it has to be tested to the max hp plus other test before it hits the market.
A kit is not difficult to develop, but does take time to developed correctly, there are many variables that have to be considered.
Handling is an aspect that the V8 suffers a bit, even if the V8 is only a few lb heavier than the four cylinders.
We recently tested a V8 on a race track to find out how the V8 MGB handle at high speed driving (Willow Springs) this car was done very nicely and the installation of the V8 was done to near perfection.
We found that the power was too much for the chassis coming out of the turn etc. etc. The V8 is more for the cruise night and occasional drags, this is not a negative it's a fact. The MGB chassis would need to be modify, or other work done to make the MGB stable at high speed handling with a V8, this is not to say that it's fun to drive a V8 on the daily basis on the street and perhaps the drags on the weekend.
We are still looking at developing a V8 kit; so far we found that it will take more than just motor mounts, brackets, cooling and exhaust to install the V8 on a MGB.
The idea of a kit was for a fun 'road' car not a Le Mans or Elkhart Lake winner. Driving any car at high speeds, especially nose heavy muscle cars is or can be challenging/dangerous.
Whoever the conversion kit builder is, they should always think about upgrading : brakes, stronger springs, uprated shocks or tube shocks, extended/strengthened chassis rails etc.
I am currently extensively 'road' testing my 302/5.0 V8 conversion. She drives very well and I am having a blast.
Handling is excellent through all highway speeds and beyond.
I have driven 215 conversions, Buick 300 conversions, Ford 302 conversions all with plenty of HP,all with different chassis/suspension set-ups. At the end of the day its down to the converter as to what type of car they want. Each car is unique.
1969 MGB 302 V8
|<<The V8 is more for the cruise night and occasional drags, this is not a negative it's a fact.>>|
How much power was this MGV8 that you tested making?! Was it shod with racing slicks?
The chassis mods would be even more important for drag racing. I believe that a stock late model MGB chassis can handle close to 200HP. I have seen and driven some very stout MGV8s. I haven't seen a twisted one yet. I know everyone that ran at Grattan Raceway last year had a blast!
Maybe the British chaps that road race will weigh in on what is needed chassis-wise.
|Bill, I don't disagree with you, but set up properly the MG is a nutural handling car. It can be driven or powered through a corner. I just had my car on a chassie dyno and pulled 292 hp at the rear wheels.(running VERY rich) My 302 has been on the road for almost two years and shows no signs of structural problems. I am running Ted Lathrop's coil over front suspension and have nothing but praise for it ( I will comment on that at a later date) I agree that these cars have to be set up properly, but the will handle 300 + horsepower.|
|pete keep thinking on your kit there is plenty of people out there like myself that just would like to tool around the country roads and love the thought of an mg with ford power|
|I'm pretty sure my car puts out 300 hp or better. The unibody is very stiff. As this was MG's first shot at a unibody design I believe they built it unnecessarily stout perhaps preferring to err on the side of strength. It is also surprisingly heavy for it's size. In any case I have driven this car with V8 power for upwards of 18 years with first a high output Buick and then both turbocharged and supercharged Olds engines. Most of this time it has been configured with a forward tilt front end assembly, with only some fairly minor reinforcing of the inner fenderwell upper flanges.|
I don't understand how you can say that the V8 is inferior in handling to the unconverted roadster. If anything I am quite certain that not only is the opposite true, but that there is no possible way to prove that hypothesis, simply because, given any road coarse the V8 equipped car will turn a faster lap, everything else being equal. That all else can be equal is an easily demonstrated fact of course, as a number of V8 cars exist which are lighter than otherwise identical unmodified cars. We have also seen that it is easily possible to build a 302 equipped car with virtually no change in weight distribution. Given then that power output is a function of the driver's right foot.... Ah well, you get the point. I know some people have felt obliged to reinforce the body of the car for high power applications, but so far I've not heard of one single case where the body has deformed in any way due to excess horsepower.
Anyway, that's my take on the subject.
Right on ! I weighed my car with the coil over front suspension installed, which saves 70 lbs. It weighs in at 2230
|Jim & Steve,|
Great words of wisdom !!
Any news from Ted about that coil over setup ? Saving 70 lbs is a heck of a weight saving !
I'll start a new thread with the RAVE review as soon as I get the time, I don't want to leave any details out. I have over 2000 miles on the front end. I will tell you that its like having power steering, with feed back !!!!
|Perhaps I was not clear. I am not saying that the V8 is not a good handler. BTW Steve some well prepared Honda Integra’s R are faster that some of the stock GTS Vipers and ZO6's. With allot more hp and torque and good drivers.|
My point was on the liability area. Yes I like a car that handles in all areas; a high-speed maneuver in the FWY can save you or....
The car we tested did not have slicks nor it was prepared for such event, the car was a street driven and the purpose of the test was to see what areas could be improved on the Ford V8 swap with safety in mind.
Could you twist a MGB with more than 300 hp? Perhaps not but it could make some damage that is not readily detectable. The MGB is narrow and short wheelbase, do I need to say more?
But a well design V8 kit can and it will help the car handle. And who ever comes up with a V8 kit should keep in mind some of these factors and that includes suspension settings front and rear.
Could you imagine going 65 mph and perform an evasion move with a V8 MGB 250-300 hp + with bad settings on the front and rear suspension?
The whole point is liability; all areas must be cover, safety, show, and go, etc…
Mazda tested a Miata V6 with a 6 speed, Mazda has the V6 engine on the sedans, and so it was logical to do the swap. The car was to hot and would have required lots of $$$$ to improve on a suspension that was almost perfect to handle the power of the V6, so the program was cancel, the cost of the car would have been to high. The reason to improve on the suspension was to protect Mazda from the courthouse. You never know who is going to get behind the wheel 6 cars were build and I heard that one Miata V6 is doing ice racing in Canada.
The V8 Miatas (Monster Miata) are very bad handlers in comparison to the 1.6 or 1.8 liter cars, their suspension was design to handle the 1.6 and 1.8
Safety being the first thing you plan when an idea for a modification is born.
|The big reason the monster miata's are such power handlers is that in that particular car, even a alum head 5.0 is 200+lbs heavier than the stock 4cyl.. Then add the extra ponies in and they are pretty much point and shoot only type drivers much like the old sunbeams..|
This thread was discussed between 20/07/2003 and 08/08/2003
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical BBS is active now.