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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Ford Engine And Trans Question
|Friend has a 1963 Ford 289 in an Austin Healey with a 63 vintage Ford 4 speed. The question is will a T5 transmission bolt up to that bell housing? Is there a bell housing or an adapter that will allow a T5 to work with this engine. |
Yes the Toploader 4 speed bellhousing is different.
T5 bellhousing is about 1 inch deeper with a different boltpattern.
Adaptor plates are available.
Try these companies:
BENDTSEN'S TRANSMISSION ADAPTERS
13603 Johnson Street, N.E., Dept. CRM
Ham Lake, MN 55304
KEISLER AUTOMOTIVE ADAPTERS
2216-B W. Gov. John Sevier Hwy., Dept. CRM
Knoxville, TN 37820
or even places like Sacramento Mustang etc.
One of the above places may even make complete bellhousings to match up to the early Ford 5 bolt block pattern.
69 MGB 302 V8
|You SHOULD be able to get a used 5.0 flywheel real cheap, have it rebalanced to 28oz, then buy a stock T5, matching bellhousing and clutch for a 86-93 Mustang and be on your way. I did that with my 71 Mexican block and saced allot of $$ versus buying the prebalanced flywheel and using adapter plates. the SBF all use the same bolt pattern ont he block, so no worries on year changes there, it is the crank balance that is the big issue.|
The early SB Fords 221-289 used a 5 bolt bellhousing pattern until late 1964, then switched over to the 6 bolt pattern. Which has been used ever since.
|AHH I had not heard about that before. I guess that is what I get fer being a whiper-snapper heh. THanks for filling me in I really don't want to be sending out wring info.|
|What's all this talk about 50 oz. vs. 28 oz. balance? I'm planning a 302 conversion on my car and have purchased a V8 model T5 transmission and just today, a bellhousing advertised as being able to fit 79 to 93 mustangs. I haven't bought an engine yet, but will be very shortly. What should I be looking for? |
Any 302 built 1965 to roughly 1984/5 will be a 28oz balanced crank and use flat hydraulic lifters. Anything after that is the "roller 5.0" version which is 50oz crank balance and Roller lifters. The firing order changed also around that time.
This is really only an issue for engine rebuild kits, Cam, balancer and Flywheel. The trans will be the same. I would recommend buying a newer, 85+ block, as the mustang aftermarket really took off, plus you will find allot of stock mustang parts all over from guys upgrading thier cars. I bought a couple late model flywheels, think the Avg price was around $20!! Like mentioned above your T5 bellhousing should fit any 302/5.0 built after mid/late 1964, this includes all the 5.0's in Explorer built till 2002. Be aware, in 94/95 mustangs the bellhousing and T5 are a little diferent, same bolt pattern, but the bellhousing is longer and puts the trans around 3/4" farther back in the car, to match that the trans input shaft is longer. Same bolt patterns, just longer.
When buying your 302/5.0, if possible look carefully at the VIN number from the donor vehicle.
E code is Roller Cam HO motor found in Mustangs, Lincoln Mark Series and some Thunderbirds.
F code is Roller Cam non-HO motor, found in Crown Vics and Town cars, large sedans etc.
N code is Non Roller Cam, found in trucks, vans.
P code is Roller Cam, HO motor with Iron GT 40 heads, found in Explorers and Mountaineers.
D code is the rare Mustang Cobra. Roller cam, HO motor, and iron GT40 heads.
T code is Roller Cam HO found 94-95 Mustang.
All of the above range from 200 HP to 245 HP
|Thanks for the info guys... The HO denotation still puzzles me. What makes an engine a "HO" if you can get a non roller HO engine? Different cam? I seem to remember my 1982 Mustang GT had "302 High Output" spelled out on top of the air cleaner. Confusing. Where in the VIN code would the engine letter appear? |
Also, if anyone has a link or lead on where I can research the Ford 302's history in greater detail, I would really appreciate it.
The engine letter or number is the 8th digit from the left from the VIN code.
Some great books I use are:
High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange by George Reid
How to rebuild Small Block Ford Engines by Tom Monroe
Ford Performance by Pat Ganahl
plus plenty more out there.
HO engine usually means a slightly hotter cam and or heads and compression ratio producing more HP over the 'stock' engine. Anybody else have a better definition ? Larry ? Dan M ?
Here is a history link:
|> Scott, Any 302 built 1965 to roughly 1984/5 will be a 28oz balanced crank |
> and use flat hydraulic lifters. Anything after that is the "roller 5.0"
> version which is 50oz crank balance and roller lifters.
The 302 appeared first in 1968. Earlier engines displaced 221, 260, and
289 cubes. Beware there is also a 255, which was a 302 with a reduced
bore and many other changes. In 1979, the Mustang had a 302 but it was
replaced in 1980 and 1981 by the small bore 255 V8. The 5.0L was back
in 1982 with 2V carburetor. Later versions got a special annular booster,
emissions calibration Holley 4V carb. Automatics got throttle body
type central point fuel injection (CFI in Fordspeak). In 1986, multipoint
fuel injection was introduced (first as a speed density system, then as a
The balance factor, roller lifter, and firing order changes were all
separate changes. The balance factor change occured in 1981. 1981-and-up
5.0L (HO and standard versions) use a 50.0 oz-in balance factor and a
lighter crank. Pre-1981 289/302 use 28.2 oz-in, the same as all 289,
351W, and 351C. The crank, harmonic damper, and flywheel and flexplate
all need to be balanced to the same factor. If you plan to use the engine
aggressively and have it apart for rebuild, it is recommended you
rebalance the later 50 oz-in 5.0L cranks to use 28.2 oz-in harmonic
dampers and flywheels. It takes relatiely little Mallory metal to do
this and makes the crank more reliable at RPM.
The hydraulic roller cam came about in the mid-1985 5.0L HO. Later,
all 5.0L's would get roller lifters, though the cams varied by
application and year. The early speed density cams (say from a 1987
5.0L HO were best, particularly if you use 1.7:1 roller rockers).
1985 was the only model year with a conventional distributor (with
steel gear). Later distributors look the same but have no advance
since the computer determines the advance. Be aware the roller cam
requires a steel distribuor gear, not the iron gear the flat tappet
cams used. The blocks were revised with taller lifter bores and to
accept the retainer (spider) that holds the roller lifters in place.
A thrust plate was also added to retain the cam. Be aware the cylinder
head casting was revised to allow installation and removal of the roller
lifters without removal of the cylinder heads. It's a real bummer to
torque the heads in place and not be able to install the lifters.
Firing order of the 5.0L HO's were changed to that of the 351W somewhere
along the line, but the standard passenger car 5.0L's remained the
earlier firing order (at least in 1987, the 5.0L HO's and standard
5.0L's had different firing orders).
The hydraulic roller cam and revised block with taller lifter bores was
introduced part way through 1985. In 1986, the 5.0L HO received port
fuel injection (SEFI or sequential electroninc fuel injection in Ford-speak).
Throttle body injection (CFI) was available in 1984 and 1985 along side the
SEFI 5.0L HO. Early 5.0L HO's (there were non-HO's as well) had cast
pistons, later they got forged pistons then went to hypereutectic.
The block was revised in '86 as an E6SE casting. There were several
different earlier castings: '78-79 were D8VE, '80-82 were E0AE, '83-84
were E2AE, and '85 had a unique E5AE block (roller lofter bosses). The
'86-up blocks were cast with the roller lifter bosses, and "thicker
decks, thicker cylinder walls, and semi-siamesed water jacketing around
the bores". That took the bare block's weight up from 120lb for the E0AE
and E2AE casting to 126lb for the current part. They changed cranks from
the E1AE part in '85 with the introduction of the new rear main seal, and
have stayed with the E2AE part since then.
Early SBF's had the dipstick hole in the timing cover, later 5.0L's
have a machined boss and hole in the block. Fox body cars got a double
sump oil pan and pickup. There was a change from two to one piece real
mains seals. The blocks lost the clutch pivot boss when they went to the
pull cable clutch linkage. Lots of variations in the starters, flywheels,
rockers arms, pushrods, heads, 3 versus 4 bolt crank pulleys, blanked off
timing covers (later there would be no provision for mechanical fuel pump),
waterpumps and accessory drives. Later serpentine belt applications use
a different timing cover and reverse rotation water pump. When it comes
to small block Fords, there's much to confuse the unitiated.
> P code is Roller Cam, HO motor with Iron GT 40 heads, found in Explorers and
The heads for the Explorers and Mountaineers were GT40P, not standard GT40's.
They use smaller ports and valves than the GT40's and require unique exhaust
headers due to a revised spark plug location. Pistons were hypereutectic and
the cam, while a hydraulic roller, has milder specs. The intake manifold is
similar to the Cobra with staggered ports but has several differences.
> D code is the rare Mustang Cobra. Roller cam, HO motor, and iron GT40 heads.
Also 1.7:1 ratio Crane roller rockers, a different cam, and a Cobra intake
> All of the above range from 200 HP to 245 HP
The standard passenger car 5.0L was considerably weaker than 200HP.
My dad's 1990 Lincoln Town Car was rated at only 150 HP. ABout the only
parts the Town Car engine shares with my 1987 5.0L HO are the block,
crank, rods, lifters, and pushrods.
> I would recommend buying a newer, 85+ block, as the mustang aftermarket
> really took off, plus you will find alot of stock mustang parts all over
> from guys upgrading their cars.
I just rebuilt my 1987 5.0L HO. It's a really durable engine. Forged
pistons, chrome plated valves, double roller timing chain, excellent valve
seals, nodular iron block, roller cam, etc. It had 163,000 hard miles on
it and still ran fine but I wanted to take a peek inside. I had heard the
nodular iron 5.0L blocks wore quite well but I was surprised to see how
nice the engine looked inside. I was expecting some wear due to the fact
I was running a K&N filter which probably does not filter as well as a paper
filter. Also, I spent a year in the Mojave desert and upon my return,
noticed the air inlet tube had a gap at the bottom that allowed unfiltered
air in. In all his years of engine building, my dad had never seen anything
look so good, especially given the hard usage.
The engine had regular oil changes and after 40K miles, I switched to
Mobil 1 synthetic. The block showed no wear whatsoever: no ridge and the
original honing cross hatch marks were still visible. The valves and crank
were still within the tolerances for new parts. The roller cam and lifters
were fine. The cam bearings were like new, in fact they were a bit on the
tight side. Guides were tight. Even the connecting rod big ends were still
round. Strictly speaking, the only thing the engine needed was a valve job
and a throttle body cleaning (later versions got a Teflon coating, mine was
an early one that was uncoated aluminum).
I assume a number of things contributed to low wear: the fuel injection,
overdrive, low tension oil rings, etc. but one major contributor has to
be the synthetic oil. When my dad pulled the intake on his 1990 Lincoln's
5.0L, it showed a fair bit of build up that was not present in my engine.
His engine got regular oil changes with conventional oil and certainly
led an easier life than my Mustang. Both my brother and father have
since switched to synthetic oil in their vehcles.
> High Performance Ford Engine Parts Interchange by George Reid
Riddled with errors.
> How to rebuild Small Block Ford Engines by Tom Monroe
Excellent book for earlier 289 and 302's and rebuilding in general.
My version has no specific information on later engines. I'm not sure
if later versions were updated or not.
> Ford Performance by Pat Ganahl
Pretty decent resource but generally outdated. Not sure if later
versions have been updated.
A quick scan shows a few errors.
> HO engine usually means a slightly hotter cam and or heads and
> compression ratio producing more HP over the 'stock' engine.
> Anybody else have a better definition ? Larry ? Dan M ?
The differences between a standard 5.0L and HO version varied
year-to-year and were substantial. For instance, in 1987, the
HO had these differences:
forged flat top pistons (pistons are usually slightly above deck at TDC
to maximize quench, the compressed gasket provides required piston to
double roller timing chain
metric low tension oil rings
double sump pan with low oil level sensor
chrome plated valves
hotter roller cam with 0.440" lift
351W firing order
E7TE "truck" heads
60mm throttle body
intake manifold with larger ports (both upper and lower)
different EFI computer
cast aluminum valve covers (will work with roller rockers if
filler neck baffle removed)
true dual exhaust
different brackets and accesory locations
The differences added up to a 75 HP increase and better durability.
> First, I note that Larry recommends using a late model explorer engine
> due to a shorter front assembly, true?
The Ford Motorsport catalog also lists shorter pump and ancessory brackets.
> 2. Is there any problem involved with using a carb on this motor? For
> example, will I have to use a different cam?
You won't have to use a different cam but you'll want something better.
The Explorer cam is a low RPM, high torque design. The timing cover will
not have provisions for a mechanical fuel pump, however.
> 3. What flywheel will I need to use?
You'll need 50 oz-in, 157 teeth, drilled for 10 1/2" clutch disc and
diaphragm pressure plate.
> You WANT a different cam. There's a lot of power waiting to be unleashed
> from a 302 within the cam.
The best of the stock cams was the speed density HO cam. With a
set of 1.7:1 roller rockers (I run the Crane/Ford parts that were
used on the '93 Cobra Mustang), it'll pick up around 20 HP.
> 4) You could probably keep the serpentine belt setup, but it's wide...
> very wide... I think a regular v-belt would probably be a better way to
> go. It will give you more clearance up front for things like... the
Switching to a v-belt will mean a standard rotation water pump,
along with compatible brackets. I'm not familar with the Explorer
set up but on Mustangs, you can delete the power steering/air conditioner
bracket and the air pump, flip the tensioner and retain the serpentine
belt. There are also A/C eliminator brackets available.
|Dan, you might need carpal tunnel release surgery after that last post. I appreciate it though. I had no idea there was so much to know about the 302. I'm more eager now than ever, to research this subject more before I start engine shopping. If you have any recommended reading, please let me know.|
P.S. Just curious, was the HO an option on all roller 302's, or did only the Mustang, Explorer, and Mountaineer get this option?
|> Dan, you might need carpal tunnel release surgery after that last post. |
> I appreciate it though.
Heh, heh heh.
> I had no idea there was so much to know about the 302.
My post only scratched the surface.
> I'm more eager now than ever, to research this subject more before I start
> engine shopping.
Always a sound plan. What are you goals/budget for the engine build?
> If you have any recommended reading, please let me know.
The books previously mentioned are worth having. Also pick up a copy
of the FRPP catalog (Ford Motorsport). "The Official Ford Mustang 5.0L
1979-93 Technical reference & Performance Handbook" is also worthwhile.
A good site to ask technical questions is www.mustangsandmore.com.
> P.S. Just curious, was the HO an option on all roller 302's, or did only
> the Mustang, Explorer, and Mountaineer get this option?
It started as the optional engine for the Mustang and continually evolved
through the years. Most of the changes were positive, though some were
to cut cost (e.g. replacing the forged pistons with hypereutectic pistons)
or make the engine quieter (revise cam profile). The Lincoln Mark VII
2-door coupe got the engine as standard but I believe they retained the
speed density version, even after the Mustangs had switch to mass air.
Eventually, the Thunderbird got a version of the HO as well.
The Thunderbird and Mark VII versions put out somewhat less HP due to
intake and/or exhaust restrictions. I'm not sure if the Explorer and
Mountaineer engines were classified as 5.0L HO's or are considered
unique. They have a lot of detail differences with Mustang 5.0L HO's.
The GT40P heads and intake are generally superior to the E7TE casting
but the header selection is not as good.
|Yeah what he said!!!|
Thanks for getting it all out there and listed with dates etc!! THat is information that is hard to find specifics on!!
The explorer front end set-up is a bit unique, but it is all serpentine, reverse pump etc. It uses teh same timting cover as the 94/95 mustangs and the 91-93 Tbird 5.0'sm but the pump itself and matching pulleys are a hair shorter.
The link listed below is to the EFI Conversions page. Whie you want Carb, it does have a bunch of pictures and I think some notes on the explorer front assembly as I did it all at the same time.
I am heading in to fix the broken picture links now...
DAN, if you want, write that data up in a Article I will post it on the sie with full cedit to you. I could also copy/paste it and do the article for you, just let me know, it is a wealth of info that HAS to be saved for all to see...
My budget is definitely limited. My plan is to buy a used working engine and make the necessary modifications to the car to make it fit, and install it. I'll then have lots of time for future horsepower upgrades. (The rest of my life) My main concern is what engine to buy initially. If one year or version is that much superior than the next and is still within my budget, hey...why not go for it? I still haven't decided to go fuel injection or carburetion either. My initial feeling is that an old school car needs old school power, and a nice, round, chrome engine cleaner nestled between the heads would look right at home. On the other hand however, I love the thought of hitting the key and having a perfect idle, fuel mixture, and throttle response. Much harder if not impossible to get the day to day reliability of a good port fuel injection system. I am not one bit afraid of it's "complexity". (they're really not that much more work to install) I could easily be swayed either way however, it's merely a matter of what becomes available at the time I have the money to buy it.
It's funny. My brothers have all owned various Fords over the years with many having the 289 or 302 in such cars as the Maverick, Mustang, Cougar, Fairlane, etc. These cars were all pretty mild in their builds with street performance type cams at best. These cars were all more or less heavier than the MGB and yet all of them were a blast to drive and had plenty of power on tap. I would be more than happy to have an engine that performs like that in a light weight car like mine. Maybe I shouldn't stress too much about finding the perfect HO roller block engine. But then again....
|Scott. If your looking for "easy" install, no hood modifications EFI Here is what I would recommend.|
Find a 1994/95 Mustang GT (NOT COBRA THEY ARE TALLER, ask how I know!!) or 1996-2001 Explorer motor. Each option will get you a big chunk of what you need in one package. The Mustang will have good heads and the intakes you want if you don't want to mod the hood at all. Stock 87-93 5.0 intakes will not fit either. The explorer gets you the brackets and other front end accy's you need to complete the short serpentine front assembly you need, but the heads and intakes are problematic for our use. (Though they can be sold for $300 per pair normally, which helps pay for those alum heads) The Mustang front end from the years mentioned should be shorter than the old school Ford also, but I don't know any specifics on that. I just know the Explorer water pump was another 1/4"+ shorter than the Tbird one I had. So Either block, 94/95 mustang GT intakes, whatever heads you choose, Either front end assembly.
Then you will want the complete Wiring harness, ECU, Distributor, ignition and fan modules and sensors from the 94/95 mustang (COBRA OR GT) The cobra will be set for #24 injectors so keep note of what your motor comes with. (Explorer and GT are #19) You should hopefully be abe to get all of the above for under $1300 at least if not better. I think I spent around $1075 for mine.
NOTHING beats the throb of a 5.0, just something about the physics of the motor makes a very distinct sound.
|Or, you could go with a Holley TBI on your carb manifold. Use your chrome air cleaner on that and have all you want. I've heard they make about the same power as the port injection systems. Even if they make slightly less, you'll still have more than you need. Good luck.|
|Great point Edd!! The only thing that was tough for me was the $1500 price tag. YOu can fund used ones for aroun $700-900 on ebay sometimes. That is for the new programable one. The old ones are a little chaper.|
The COOL thing is the yare SHORTER than a stock carb!!! ALLOT SHORTER! That means bigger air cleaner for better air flow under a stock hood!!
|> DAN, if you want, write that data up in a Article I will post it on the |
> site with full cedit to you. I could also copy/paste it and do the article
> for you, just let me know, it is a wealth of info that HAS to be saved for
> all to see...
Let me work on it a bit. A better format might be to list the changes
by year, then do a notes section, followed by a list of tips.
The first part would look something like this (incomplete at this point):
1965 - In July 1965 a running switch was made to a thinner timing chain
and cam sprocket with integral spacer. Pre-1965 (except HiPo)
used a thicker chain with separate spacer. Make sure the stack
height is correct, otherwise the fuel pump eccentric can rub
against the back of the aluminum timing cover.
1965 - 5 bolt bellhousing bolt pattern changed to 6 bolts after November
1966 - Timing cover change. Pre-1966 timing covers with aluminum water
pumps used a unique timing cover. Most aftermarket aluminum pumps
are for the post-'66 timing covers.
1968 - Timing cover changed to use a bolt on pointer. Earlier timing
covers had integral pointers.
1970 - Water pump inlet (lower radiator hose) changed to from right to
left hand side. This change was coordinated with a change from
3 to 4 bolt crank pulley and harmonic dampers. Many/most
aftermarket dampers are drilled for both types of pulleys.
1975 - Switch for points to electronic ignitions. 1975-1979 Duraspark
module with 3 prongs recommended for swaps to earlier 289/302's.
1977 - Some blocks dropped clutch linkage pilot hole (Mustang II used
cable linkage). Pre-1977 blocks have a holled drilled on the
driver's side rear corner for mechanical clutch release linkage.
1978 - Air injection passage added to cylinder heads. The passage runs
the length of head. The passage can be plugged plugs (available
from Pioneer) which screw into the passage and have threads for
accessory bolts or ground strap. High mileage passages plug up
with carbon. When grinding the humps out of the exhaust ports,
small holes leading to this passage will remain. They are of no
consequence if the end passages have been plugged, otherwise they
will be an exhaust leak.
1978 - EEC-I engine computer introduced on Lincoln Versailles. The crank
is fitted with a pulse ring in place of the oil slinger.
1979 - Changed dipstick to pass through oil pan. Pre-1979 passed through
the timing cover into the front sump pan. 1979 pans have a hole on
the driver's side and pass into a rear sump pan.
1980 - Dipstick location changed again. A hole is drilled into block,
with the dipstick entering the rear pickup oil pan. Note that
Fox-body oil pans have a small forward sump and a large rear sump
with two drain plugs.
1981 Change from 28.2 oz-in to 50 oz-in for 5.0L/302's. All 221, 289,
351W, 351C and earlier 302's were balanced to 28.2 oz-in. Later
5.0L/302 cranks were lightened which required additional mass
added to the harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate. It's not
uncommon for late cranks to ...
1984 Throttle body injection (CFI or central fuel injection) introduced.
1985 - Hydraulic roller cam and lifters introduced on 5.0L HO. Block
The blocks were revised with taller lifter bores and to accept the
retainer (spider) that holds the roller lifters in place. A thrust
plate was also added to retain the cam. Be aware the cylinder head
casting was revised to allow installation and removal of the roller
lifters without removal of the cylinder heads. 1985 was the only
year for an OEM distributor with conventional mechanical and vacuum
advance and the steel distributor gear (steel roller cam core requires
a compatible distributor gear material).
1985 - Fuel injected engines have the mechanical fuel pump boss blocked
off with a bolt on plate. Later (when?), the boss would be dropped
1986 5.0L HO receives port fuel injection (SEFI or sequential electroninc
fuel injection in Ford-speak).
|That is perfect. I will grab that later tonight and get a page started in the new site!!|
This thread was discussed between 27/01/2004 and 03/02/2004
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical BBS is active now.