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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Megasquirt ?
|I have a friend who would like to convert my OEM FI on my 1995 Camaro V6 installed in my CB roadster. The V6 is fitted with headers. I am hoping to increase power and efficiency some what, and I would like to hear some thoughts about the Megasquirt system from those who have tried it.|
|If you have the time and patiences. It's not as easy as it seems. I know of one car that is using it, after many, many hrs is now running. The big plus is that you can tune it any time with your lap top. You can down load the softwear for free form the net.|
|I have it on my truck, and am installing it on my roadster. Obviously I am happy with it. But you need to know going in that it's a system designed and built by a loosly connected group of guys (brilliant guys I might add) and by its very nature is in a perpetual state of development. Having said that, there are several variations and the one you choose needs to fit your needs. The older v2.2 units are more tried and tested, but the newer v3.0's and MS-II's have more capabilities and development is going well on them. I started out with the v2.2, added the MS-II board, and use it to control EFI and ignition timing on the truck. Tuning is as easy as it gets and quite precise. For the MG and my brother's TR-4A as well I built a pair of v3.0/MS-II units. I have run the new unit in the truck and it pretty much works the same as the v2.2 but has more inputs and outputs. If you haven't already done so, go to:|
which should get you started. If your buddy is an experienced installer he can have it up and running in a matter of days. You can buy the controller assembled to your specifications or as a kit that you assemble, buy a semi finished wiring harness, and that makes the install go pretty smooth. Really for the money you can't go wrong and the support from the guys who are doing it is nothing short of phenomenal.
We installed a Haltech on one of our 3.4L 1995 Camaro V6's and the power gains were very minimal but appears that power was gained all over the board. It was tuned a few times by different dyno shops to see if we could get better results. I can name many other items that I would look at on that motor previous to installing a megasquirt or other aftermarket system.
Also, the amount of time you will have into it will be incredible. I am working with a company that tells me they can alter the programming on the 3.4L PCM, but these particular PCM's have to be sent in for a reflash, not just a simple chip upgrade.
Finally, if you are going away from the stadard system, you should get yourself some dyno time, otherwise you will never know if you actually have the system pay itself off.
Here are dyno results:
The first is the 3.4L in the MGB
Second is a stock Camaro
Third is a FWD, so it does not help in your application.
Anyways, There are plenty of other items that will cost less time and the same amount of money that can offer similar gains. The ONLY reason to alter from the standard PCM is because you plan to supercharge, turbo ro place a Wild camshaft into the system with more then about 10.0 to 1 compression.
Also, we have a chip that adds power to the stock PCM for that motor. I am presuming you have the 3.4L 60 degree and not the 95 3.8L 90 degree V6 but either way, most of what i say can be applied for either.
|BMC Brian McCullough|
|It really depends on how good your buddy is with installs. If he's good he can have the car wired in about a day, but allowing two for that, another two for sensor installs and other mechanical details and another day to do initial tune, it should be possible to be running within a week. Adding complexity adds time of course, and if it's something new to him you can double or triple that before it's streetable. Tuning is as simple as going for a drive and tapping two keys on your laptop to enrich or lean. If you install a wideband O2 sensor you can just set your AFR targets, click autotune, and let it do the tuning for you.|
|Hey Jim, I have been curious about this system for quite some time. Is there a chance you might be able to calculate the time you have invested in building a unit by an average shop rate($50.00)? In other words what would it cost to build in comparison to the cost of Accel(approx.$1400.00), Haltech($1500.00) or the more expensive Electromotive ($2200.00)?|
|I would agree with Jim's statements. I am taking my car from Ford EFI to MS. I have a V3 PCB.|
I was used to messy EFI wiring and it took a day or two to make a new harness from gutted ford ones. I had firing order wrong I think and would not run at 1st, but I tinkered with that and other isues and it fired right up. I would NOT recommend this to someoen that does not under stand motors and how to tune them. IT is so adjustable you can easily chase your own tail trying to get it "right" THat said it is simple install and tuning. OHH Get the LC1 wideband, $200 and it interfaces with MS for tuning, GREAT combo
Dann, your trying to compare apples and oranges. That said, even the high end systems you have to make your harness match your car if you are doing a professional caliber install, so your time invested difference is truly minimal at best. It is not drop a harness on motor and turn key situation with any of the aftermarket EFI systems. They DO, offer professional support, but to be honest the guys on the MSEFI forums built and designed the system and are still designing new features on a weekly basis, so the support is incredible. The MS is available fully assembled, tested and with a test board for under $300 if you look around. You can also buy bare full length pre terminated harnesses that you cut and connector for sensors to match your install. It is also infinitely flexible for upgrades and options, you want too run DIS and MAF on a 15000cc GSXR custom motor, no problem, want to run it on a flathead ford, no problem, how about a lawnmower engine? sure no problem. Sorry, I am just a bit "over" with people badmouthing a good design because it is not Accel, or Holley brand.
|Additional info is that I've already purchased Dan Master's wiring kit to completely rewire the car. The car has been on the road for over 4 years, but last year suffered a major short in the trunk wiring, sadly, my fault, due to some rather spirited driving and not having things stowed properly. Having had the car for 25 years and had another major electrical problem prior to the engine conversion, I decided to rewire. My friends plan is to purchase the kit and build it himself. Since he is skilled in this area, I'm confident he will do a good job. He's been doing other FI V8s for other folks for quite a while. |
Does anybody know of a chassis dyno within 100m or so of Southern Delaware? I've called around and can find only an engine dyno. I'd like to get a before and after reading if the price isn't too steep.
Right now the plan is to just build and install the Megasquirt on the stock motor. Then, after seeing the results, maybe, if budget allows, add some go fast goodies.
|Dann, like Larry said if you want to compare it to a Haltech, you just buy a prebuilt unit and preterminated wiring harness. All expenses in, you won't have much over $500 in the system if that, and the preterminated harness makes installation a snap. Each of the wires is printed every few inches with the name of what it connects to and the complete bundle is about 5/8" in diameter. For guys like Larry and me who've gone the reclaimed OEM route before, that right there is nothing short of incredible. But as far as assembly goes, I've built three of them, a V2.2 and two V3.0/MS-II's and if you have to bill for your time that's probably not the way to go. I could probably put one together in an afternoon and do 2 or 3 nearly as quick, but it'd still be cheaper to just buy them from the guys who are in busines to build them. However, the deal I make is you buy two, I build them and keep one. As we speak they are working on adding new, completely sealed connectors to a new version of the MS v3.0 called the MicroSquirt which is primarily aimed at applications like motorcycles and snowmobiles where it needs to be small and waterproof. Once the connector issue is settled it will probably make it's way over to the larger standard MS unit as well. That won't happen for awhile yet though. Maybe sometime in the next year or two I'll install a uS (MicroSquirt) on my sportster.|
Bob, I am also rewiring my car completely. I bought the wires from Mike Masters (Dan's son) at Advance Auto Wire http://aawire.blogspot.com/ but am using my own sources for relay and fuse holders and also have a few special requirements. But the wire is first rate. The cross-linked poly insulation is much better than the old vinyl. They do tend to err on the side of caution, so there is more wire than you need and the wires are mostly one size larger than original. This is mostly a good thing, but the low current wires could be smaller and that would make for a more compact wire bundle. Incidentally, the preterminated MS wiring kit also uses the cross-linked poly insulation. They calculated their loads more closely and sized the wires accordingly and there is a significant difference in wire sizes. The full harness will take every bit of the main grommeted harness pass through in the firewall.
Anyway, I had the MS harness routed, wrapped, and trimmed the first evening, have spent about another hour on terminations and probably have an hour or so left to do the details, power connections and such. I've been taking my time on it. I did that part before doing the main harness, which I'm still working on but I'm getting close to finishing up under the hood now and will move to the dashboard soon.
Bob, have you contacted Glen Towery in Dover? 30 years ago when I lived there in the air force there wasn't a dyno in town but there was a strong performance community so that may have changed since then.
|Sorry for the previous rant, I am off the soapbox now (I hope, damn thing hurts my feet!)|
I am also going to rewire my entire car. THough I bought a generic kit as the price was too good to pass up and it has a mini fuse box. The nice thing for MS for guy like most of us the V8 MG's is that it fits out nature. MOST of use build the cars ourselves, the cars become a reflection of our personality, if anything goes wrong, we often know what it is before we coast to a stop on the side of the road(worst case) and have an imediate fix. Once you install a MS and get it tuned it will be the same way.
They have recently added MAF, so the system can use an air meter if you have to have one, they also added constant baro which is nice for those living in the hills with big barometric changes. DIS like I said, You can even run your Std old carb's Distrib and only have the MS do fuel if you want rather than fuel and spark. That is the recommended way to start anyways as you KNOW your spark works...
I can't wait to the the micro either. there was a guy making them a few years back but he dissapeared and there has been recent interest in it so B&G took up the project..
|Actually, that miniMS unit may still be around. It was (is) based on the v2.2 board and has no outside support other than what directly applies from the MS forum. The guy that built it simply downsized the board layout and did it with permission from B&G on the conditions that he only use that version, (no upgrade) and that he support the product. I saw the website a week or two ago and I think they are still selling it, but for how long is anybody's guess. In the meantime there continued to be a fairly strong interest in a downsized unit, particularly among the motorcycle owners, many of whom were doing conversions. So somewhere along about the same time that the v3.0 board was being finalized somehow Bruce and Al (B&G) managed to find the time to lay out the smaller board and get it made up. It uses the same components as the standard board for the most part, and I seem to remember there being a one-piece sealed case available for it. The guys have been using Amp connectors so far. I just suggested a hermetically sealed D-37 that I ran across which would be good as interchangeability could be maintained, but I haven't heard what they think about it yet. The connector issue should be settled by the time I'm ready to buy one.|
But to make a bit more sense of what's out there, v1.0 was the first board and isn't for sale any more. The v2.2 board is, and it controls EFI, can be configured to do quite a bit more using MS&S for ign control as well or MS&S Extra for a pretty wide range of tasks. It is limited in inputs and outputs though. For instance, it can't do spark and idle air control (IAC) at the same time, though it can do either, and can also do spark and Fast Idle (FIdle)I think (don't quote me on that though). The v3.0 board is an upgrade version which has a lot more capability in terms of I/O circuits and also has provisions for a CAN buss for connecting multiple boards at the logic level, such as if you wanted to use another board to control all the shifting functions of an auto transmission, which can be done with the same board with different programming. Then there is the MS-II which substitutes a much smaller but more capable processor. This provides control for all the extra I/O lines, gives both spark and IAC control, has inputs for knock, a second O2 sensor, etc. The MS-II is a daughterboard that replaces the processor chip in either the v2.2 or v3.0 boards and the uS as well. It greatly expands the RAM and carries the CAN buss hardware, as well as giving headroom for more complex programming. Then, there are also several add-on boards which you may or may not choose to put in the same case. One is an I/O board which greatly expands the inputs/outputs available, then there are a couple more which seem a bit specialized, there is a flyback board for use with the v2.2 for low impedance injectors, and then there is a relay board you can use for power and interconnections if you like. Finally, last but not least there is the test board mentioned earlier by Larry which is called the MegaStim because it stimulates the controller to get it to 'run' on the bench. A very inexpensive testing tool.
Now you don't have to have all this 'stuff'. Presently there are two schools of thought. Because the v2.2 board is very strongly supported, has a large number of units installed, and some quite sophisticated special programming done, many continue to think of it as being the more versatile choice, and it is less expensive as well. With the MS-II upgrade it is every bit as good as the v3.0/MS-II in most respects. I have it on my truck running fuel, spark, and IAC and it does an excellent job. You can add radiator fan control to it easily, and it still has some excess capacity. It will continue to be well supported for quite some time, is still for sale, and most of the archives are filled with threads concerning that unit. The other school is that the v3.0, being the new kid on the block will be better supported in the future and there is a lot of sense in this opinion. It's pretty well tested at this point although every now and then an issue may come up with one of the non-mainstream applications which may carry over to the mainstream uses in some cases as well. But this is normal for development work. Future developments will be based on this board, particularly with the CAN feature, and the bulk of the thought and effort is being expended here. The coming UMS (Ultra MegaSquirt) will essentially be based on the MSv3.0, CAN buss, and peripheral boards, with one of the first ones coming out being the sequential injection board that is in the works now and I think either in alpha or beta testing. In fact I wired the injectors on my MG so that it can be easily converted to sequential if I want to do it later. So my suggestion at this point would be to go with the MSv3.0/MS-IIv2.0 (MS-IIv1.0 is no longer available and is not particularly well supported)if you think you might be interested in future developments, or the MSv2.2/MS-II if you want to save some bucks and aren't interested in wanting to keep up, what's there now is plenty good enough, thank-you. And it certainly is.
|Larry, I'm glad that you are off your soap box. So why jump on me? You must have been on the rag when you read my post. If you meant I bad mouthed the Accel, Haltech or Electromotive units then you didn't read my post correctly.If this is the case I'll accept an apology before it becomes an issue. I didn't bad mouth anything or compare anything or anyone? |
I sent that question to Jim anyway.
I merely wanted to know what the approximate cost was because I was thinking of building them as a complete unit for my conversions. If I can do this for close to under the price of my OEM units then it would benefit the people who want programmable units but were concerned about the assembly and harnesses.
Dann British Car Conversions
|Thanks Jim, That was the info I was seeking. I have been to the site and I'm pretty well convinced this may be the solution for setting up some of the perimeters for light engine mods.|
"If you meant I bad mouthed the Accel, Haltech or Electromotive units"
Should have read:
If you meant I bad mouthed Megasquirt to the Accel, Haltech or Electromotive units then you didn't read my post correctly.
|"If you meant I bad mouthed the Accel, Haltech or Electromotive units........" |
Should have read:
If you meant I bad mouthed the Megasquirt to Accel, Haltech or Electromotive units then you didn't read my post correctly.
|Now don't you guys get started again, we're all on the same side here.|
|I'm cool. Thanks for the reminder Jim.|
|I already made the only appo;ogy you will get from me. The way you worded your question was EXACTLY like I have seen many DFI, Holley fanboys use to shoot down the Megasquirt and I am just tired of it. Your lead in was word for word they way they do it.|
Getting back to the MS Issue, I think most of it has been covered here. It can be purchased as a box of parts and assembled yourself, or it can be purchased pre-assembled. Best option (works well for rover guys) is to use the GM sensors. Ford can also be used but ned to have a resistor added to account for differences in output. They can be run spoark only (recommended to start) or fuel and spark. You can use GM TB's found on most late 80's-90's chevy trucks and cars, or you can go multi-port. The unit has a buil in vac/boost port that is good to 2 bar (20psi?) The system has full boost referencing. They have added a traction control feature, flat shifting, water/methanol injection, pretty much you name it.
|Larry, thanks for your response. I am still confused about your role as savior for a company that you aren't involved with in any way. If that's Ok with you it's Ok with me.|
Nonetheless your input is well appreciated.
Dann Wade BCC
|I never claimed to be a savior, I am a faithful user and supporter of the MS. What the heck would being involved with the company have to do with sticking up for it? Just like we are all supporters of the MG, does that mean we are not allowed to stick up for the marque because we are not part of BL or whoever owns them now?|
I guess we no longer have our 1st amendment rights in this country then from the way you are putting it?
|Point well taken here. You certainly should be commended for your support in both occasions.|
|First Amendment? What country is that, Larry :-)|
Please note that this is an international board.
|First amendment will be megasquirt V1.1 which is no longer supported|
|OK. I'm confused ;-) How did we get from MegaSquirt to politics again? Oh well...|
Dann, you might have a misconception about just what the MS is. AFAIK it is not really organized as a formal company. Sure, B&G might have a business license in order to work with vendors and suppliers but I'd guess that's only in an effort to keep costs down. This is more on the order of a grass-roots community type organization jointly developing something useful to all, essentially as a non-profit venture. It is true that as the project has matured individuals within the community have taken it upon themselves to offer various components and build a small business around that. I don't know if any of them are actually profitable or not because it is more on the order of a service being provided in most cases that you can use or not as you please. In reality, every component can be obtained from alternate sources. You can make your own board, buy the components wherever you please, make your own wiring harness, and put it in a shoebox if you like. So it really is an apples and oranges situation in that regard because there's not one single thing about it that is proprietary. If one of the group decided to design the board for the next generation and make it available there's nothing keeping them from doing it except for the high degree of respect earned by Al Grippo and Bruce Bowling for their work in this area. Likewise anyone could suppliment the services offered by Eric Falgren in designing the tuning software, or Lance in administering the site. The only vested interest any of these people have in the enterprise is a desire to push the envelope. So, unlike the MG which had a corporate entity producing it and responsible for it, the MS is a loosely knit organization of volunteers. This explains the very low cost. Originally the boards were manufactured on the strength of a group buy and were available when the order came in to those who had signed up for it, and in some cases paid in advance. Eventually Bruce and Al had processed so many orders so frequently that it made sense to keep a supply on hand and send in stock replenishment orders and that is the way it's done today, except for the new designs which still sometimes are done as a group buy. The components are generally ordered from Digi-Key or perhaps from Glen's Garage because he organizes the components so well for assembly. Cases come from yet another commercial supplier and there's always a few MSers looking for something better. Or, you can get everything as a kit, or assembled because a few MSers are providing that service. But to say that any of these people have a financial interest in the business is sort of like saying Echlin has an interest in you because they make components for GM and you use GM's engines second hand. Yes, true to some extent no doubt, but certainly not an accurate description of the situation.
And because of the move towards more sophistication, smaller components, smaller footprint, more capability, weatherproofing and such, costs continue to go up. Take the uS as a perfect example. As a completely finished board using SMD's (surface mounted devices) with a sealed case, weatherproof connector, and the footprint of a business card, practically everyone considered it a wise decision to have the complete board outsourced to a vendor. And the cost has gone up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 400-500 bucks. But for what it is that's still a really good price. A small sealed box not much bigger than a pack of smokes that will run the EFI and Ign of just about any motorcycle, snowmobile, jet-ski, dirt bike, car, truck, or boat that you can think of. And all this from a group effort with no formal organization and no official business entity. I think you can see where this very ably demonstrates the power of Open Source.
So, as a member of that community, I do support all things MS. As does Larry I believe. But to think that either of us has a financial interest in it of any sort is just dead wrong as I'm sure you can now see. For that matter this applies equally well to everyone in the group clear up to Al and Bruce. Many of them have earned a great deal of respect, but none is making their fortune here. So let me extend to you the invitation to join us. Though you can be contentious at times I know you can temper that and balance it with quite a bit of ability so I feel you would be an asset to the MS group, as you are here. All you need do is find your way to the MS board and participate. You will be welcome there.
|The first Amendment 184.108.40.206.5 section b.1.2.8 paragraph Z.5.0 reads; "You may support any FI that you may like" |
Supreme court Judge Alito just pass a new ruling.
Politics may not be discusss in the BBS" It will be police by Jim B.
In summary, take your crap somewhere else.
Thank you Jim for your great inputs.
|Jim, I will investigate and when time permits I will probably join up.|
|I did not intend to get into politics.|
Yes you guys are correct this is an international board, I was poking Dann a bit since we both live here in the US.
|Larry, please do make any cartoons of Dann.|
|...and not that it matters...but the First Amendment protects you from Government interference, not fellow board member banter...unless of course Dann is The MAN so to speak.|
So Jim, Ideally I want to run my '94 GM3.4 v6 with sequential FI, DIS, IAC and a 2 bar Map and a Knock sensor, do I have to go with Version 3 only? I know this is asking alot...sequential FI and knock are negotiable. So... Batch FI, DIS, IAC and 2 bar Map sensor...which would you choose Version 2 or Version 3 or...?
|Brian, my best advice is to always go with the newer one. The reason is simple, once a new version is near coming out attention shifts away from the older product. In the case of sequential for instance, the new sequential board will interface with the MS board but it needs the CAN bus to do it, which means both MS v3.0 and MS-II v2.0 since the MS v2.2 does not have the CAN buss capability. The V2.2 with a V2.0 MS-II might do it but it doesn't have the lead out traces on the board for the CAN buss connections to the DB-37 wiring harness connector, so making the connections would be more difficult. Since the hard work has already been done it makes sense to take advantage of it, and there's not all that much difference in the cost. Depending ou your timeline you might get one of the new sequential boards too and have exactly what you want but I'm not sure when they are going to be available.|
What you need to keep in mind is that the software is continually evolving. Sometimes a new revision will be available every few days. Each revision adds features or makes tuning easier in some way or another so there might be something in there you want. Once you are finished with tuning and happy with the way the car runs it's natural to lose interest in the updates, but if you are running an older board and a desireable feature comes out in a software revision for the new board it can be frustrating when it isn't available for the older board. Also bear in mind that KS (knock) is still being developed. For instance, I built a KS circuit on the prototype area (new on the v3 board) to take a KS input. It's a simple circuit that's readily available but I'm not sure what coding may be necessary to enable it, and I think presently it can be logged but not used to actively control spark timing. That should come later but someone has to write the code.
But the other thing is that a bunch of people have been modifying the code for the V2.2 MS&S Extra so what you want may mostly already be available there. You'd have to check the postings on the Extra forum. But personally, I'd still go with the newest.
|Wow, I had fallen off the boards for a while, lots of changes oevr there!! the new GPIO board, sequential fire.. right on!|
My car is down for motor work and probably will be for quite a while with the new schedule I am running. I miss it dearly, but know once I get this next iteration done she will be a much nicer vehicle..
|George I heard you were gay|
|Yes, I am happy but not a homo. |
This is the wrong board if you are looking for mate, mate.
|George, or whatever your real name is. I am following your example by not putting my real identity or contact information or any other information about myself in this thread. You leap out like a snake in the grass and use your poison fangs without regard to whom you strike. Would you appreciate a cartoon of a person of endearment to be flaunted about?|
I, sir, protest your use of religious slurs. The use of the term "cartoon" was obvious and in extreme poor taste.You are very proficient about making half baked comments but are never a contributor to any real experience or technical input to this forum. Your apparent lack of respect for other religions is obvious. You make mockery of a sector of religion that you have apparently have no knowledge about at all. I do not know enough about the Muslim religion either, but the point here is it offends members and users of this board and I am one of those.With great disregard you have used a news event to draw your brand of humor from. The Muslims don't appreciate it, the population don't appreciated it and I'm sure the other two gentlemen that you drew the circle around don't appreciate it either.
Whether you want to believe it or not, our soldiers that are stationed in the Middle East have a deep respect for the true Muslim religion. These are people of profound discipline, courage and have been blessed to have great intelligence. Our country is blessed to have prominent surgeons and doctors that are of the Muslim faith. I suspect that you aren't American and you don't see the good that comes from the Middle Eastern nations. I on the other hand have seen great good come from the hands of these professionals. My very existence is the hands of a fine Cardiologist and Surgeon.
It's true that we are at war in Iraq and we have had serious skirmishes with another sector of "Muslims" that change their religion to suit the occasion. I specifically deny this sector and all that it stands for. I am born American and will be after my death. Until that time I'll never stop protesting the actions of your sort.
You owe an apology to this board and the world. Otherwise, you sir, are not a credit to your self or to your country.
FIRST AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
FIFTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution] - 'No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.'
The Fifth Amendment 'can be asserted in any proceeding, civil or criminal, administrative or judicial, investigatory or adjudicatory; and it protects against any disclosures which the witness reasonably believes could be used in a criminal prosecution or could lead to other evidence that might be so used.
|I just exercise my freedon of speech, if you don't like it.......|
|George the snake|
|Wow, sorry this all got started, I had no intention of thread jacking.. Dann and I have gotten past it, lets all do the same please.. Please folks lets get back on the subject of Megesquirt, it is a great system and deserves to be discussed.|
|Absolutely. Guys, please take the politics and religion outside if you will, I think we even have a forum here where it would be suitable.|
I just took the truck for a 500 mile shakedown cruise and the MS performed flawlessly following the upgrade to the MS-II daughterboard. During the first part of the trip I pulled up the VE map (3D) and leaned out the mixture a bit in a few spots and smoothed out some other areas. Once I got into the mountains I found a spot where I had some ping so I pulled up the timing map (also 3D) and retarded the timing a bit where that was and eliminated it. After that I shut down the laptop and never used it again. My next thing will be to add the accelerator pump settings back in. It has them disabled now and runs fine but there is a slight hesitation I think I can eliminate.
The way I made these changes was to pull up the maps with the drop down menu and then hit the "G" key to make the cursor follow the point where the engine is on the map. If conditions are steady I then use the "Q" key to increase and the "W" key to decrease the setting. If conditions are changing I hit the "G" key twice to lock the cursor to the point the engine was at when I hit the key and then use the change keys, move the cursor around that point with the arrow keys and blend it in. Pretty easy stuff, and no more messing around with distributors and jets. I like it a lot. I'm starting to see gray in the tailpipes so I'm starting to get close.
That sounds like a very cool tuning experience. One question, how do you keep your laptop powered for such extended stints while driving. I know you didn't use it for lo ng, but was just wondering if you have some type of accessory power supply (or an inverter) to run your PC.
PS Your advice to go with the latest offering is well taken. At the rate I'm going, I'll need the version 23.1 to run the hydrogen fuel cell. For now I'll keep an eye on V 3.0 developments.
|Brian, I use a cigarette lighter plug that I got from ebay specifically for my IBM Thinkpad 600e. Cost me about 10-15 bucks I think. I don't have a good battery for it so I use a power cord inside too, and to mount it I took a chunk of nylon and cut it down to match the battery so that it would lock into the laptop and mounted that to a wide piece of 1/8" stainless strap, bent it and screwed it to the floor. It bounces some but also absorbs large impacts and I think a bungee may work for a shock absorber but I haven't tried it yet. That way, I just lock in the laptop, plug in the cord and serial cable and power up. When I close the lid I just drape a throw over it and it looks like a small table and the throw keeps it from bouncing so much. But the best thing is that with my arm on the armrest of my seat my hand rests comfortably on the laptop with my fingers in the vicinity of the change keys. And with the laptop removed the mount doesn't take much more space than a floor shifter would. A similar type of mount could probably be made for the MG, I suppose I'll be finding out in a couple more months.|
I entertain the fantasy of a touchscreen keyboard center of the dash running tuning software, radio, song library, GPS etc.. I've got a "dead" T22 which I'm sure I could fix, so just wondering about the various options short of a dedicated purpose built car computer running a dc to dc power supply. Other than the time, know-how, money and motivation, I've got it pretty well sorted.
|Sounds like a cakewalk Brian, want to build two while you're at it? ;-)|
Seriously though, 4 or 5 years ago I met a guy who was incorporating his dash display into his EFI system and though I don't know if he was using MS or not, it was at the same small gathering where Al first showed off the MS, and Lance was there as well so it's a safe bet someone is pretty well along on that concept. I expect there's a lot of help to be had, I would particularly check out the "High Tech Topics" on the MS forum, and put up a post. Whether or not anyone has done a complete system I expect there are several who want to. I am aware that there are several displays available as well as a group dedicated to using the palm pilot, so integrating that and other functions should not be such a tremendous leap. Certainly doable.
|Looks like this might be the place to get some input on my future engine upgrdae planes. I am keeping the stock engine, but want to tune it heavily. The following are my ideas at the moment and would like your comments as the plans do include MS.|
18V engine with earli head to get compression ratio down to approx 7:1. Ported and polished head. Suitable cam.
Then the more interesting bits:
Supercharger, Intercooler, MS EFI and ignition.
My current thoughts are to mount the supercharger on the alternator side of the stock engine. Reasoning that intake temps would be lower since it'll be removed form the exhaust manifold. Also the plumbing into the intercooler that I am thinking of mounting ahead of the radiator would be easier. From the intercooler I'd run a tube into a throttle body fitted to a plenum chamber. This plenum chamber would have two fuel injectors fitted. I am thinking that they need to be fitted so they point straight down the two intake ports that will attach the plenum chamber tot he head. Plenum chamber also needs to have a MAP sensor and also a manifold air temp sensor. Throttle body need to have a TP sensor ofcourse. Cranck sensor will have to be fitted and the mappable ignition based on the Ford EDIS4 system.
What MS system am I looking at, and do you think it'll work?
Any comments would be greatly appretiated as it will be my first EFI build.
|For the ignition control you should have MS-II, and it makes the most sense to go with the MS v3.0 also, same as recommended earlier and for the same reasons. Your plan does sound quite workable however I would suggest putting the throttle body on the supercharger inlet as you will have fewer problems that way. No worry about warped throttle plates for instance and less drag in cruise. Placement of one injector in each of the two runners should work fine as long as they are large enough. I'm not sure how the firing order will affect the runners but you can deliver multiple squirts from each injector so I wouldn't expect it to be much of a problem.|
|Jim thanks for your comments, but wouldn't the distance from the throttel body to the inet manifold be too long if I mount it before the supercharger?|
The air will travel from the charger forward to the intercooler and then back up into the plenum on the other side of the enigine before being mixed with fuel in the inlet manifold. Firing order is 1342. I've heard about problems with lean number 3, but haven't found out why?
If you are interested in the issues relating to fuel injection on and engine with dual cylinder ports as in the B you could look at the write up of a project on an A series midget engine on the Emerald site.
Emerald are highly regarded when it comes to aftermarket injection and ignition systems
|I fully agree with Jim and Larry. The MS sysyem is cheap and reliable. It can compete with all the existing "professional and very Expensive" FI systems.|
I build one last year and I can't wait to install it in my MGB with Rover V8. The car need a ground up restoration because of body rust. After that I will install the MS system. The support from Bruce and Al is extremely helpfull. They answer all your questions in a matter of days with full explanation of your problem. The Rover is a 1980 SDI unit that came with FI but I was missing all the electronics and ran about 30K miles with a Carter AFB carb. Now I want it convert back to FI with the MS.
Jim, I will need some input from you when I am that far. I have no financial bond with MS and I think this is one of the best systems on the market if you want to play with it yourself and learn a lot of FI. I got away from the fear of FI by just reading the working of the MS system.
|all of this is WAY to complicated for me and WOW all this bickering,,,please lets be nice,,as for my thoughts on MEGASQUIRT ?? I use to be able to do that GOOD !!!! but now i'm 50....|
|Bickering? What bickering?|
Denny, don't let age stop you. I'm also 50... no wait I think it's 51, 52 this summer. They say the memory is the second thing to go, wonder what the first is? Eyesight? I've forgotten. Oldtimer's disease ya know. CRS.
Anyway for the record I've got no dog in the fight either, I just think the MS is so good and the support so dependable and the cost so low that it is the obvious choice. And I'll do what I can to help out anyone who wants to go that route.
|Just an update. My friend has the car, is beginning the rewiring process and will order the Megasquirt this week. He will get the latest version for the V6 SFI DIS system. Will keep you all apprised of the progress.|
|Jim and Larry thanks for all the great 411. For those that are running the ignition control what coils packs do you use? Also, maybe a silly question, but if you are running the old dist type front cover and want ign control, what do you do for the oil pump drive - leave the old dizzy in place or get it modified?|
|G - The MS can take signals from any Hall effect Dizzy and use that for ignition control, in fact you HAVE to have some sort of ignition pick-up for the MS to know how fast the engine is spinning and provide enough fuel...|
Any normal coil pack will work. I was running the same coil that came with my MG as a 4Cyl. nothing fancy is needed. Now if your taling running DIS ignition that is an entire new game and you will have to fabricate everything if you are doing that with a Buick. The ford you can just buy Explorer pieces as they were DIS from the factory.
|Graeme, on my 215 I welded a ford trigger wheel form a 4.6L engine to the back of my damper and mounted the VR sensor to the timing cover bolts. Simple, cheap, and effective. Did the same for my I-H 392 engine. I then used the EDIS-8 controller and ford coil packs, mounted the left one in the forward cutout of the inner wing and the right one on the frame rail close to the oil filter, using nutserts in both cases. I then cut down the body and shaft of the distributor and capped it with a 1" copper tubing cap and o-ring to retain the oil pump drive. I also added a VR pickup to it for a cam sensor which will be needed if I ever go to full sequential. The same mods will work for your 3.8 V6 but you can do it in any number of different ways. Easiest would be to simply take the tach signal from the points in the stock distributor.|
|Mr. Blackwood ,, of course the first thing to go depends on the person & his or hers previous lifestyle [in thier earlier years]unfortunetly looking back on my ancesters i'm 1/2 irish,,1/2[american] indian,,, so in my case I have a bad temper,,can drink almost anyone under the table,, i curse alot,, grew up in the late 60's /70's[have a terrible short term memory][i have no idea why???] i'm NOT politically correct & i'll personally kick my own ass if i ever become so!!!!! [sorry] cant help it [the ranting,,]just wish i could still do the MEGASQUIRT !!!!!!!! DAM IT!!!!!|
|Yeah, yeah, Brian and I are related.|
Just don't hold that against me.
Take a look at this.
I'd like to try this one.
|Youse guys ever heard of 'Flame Wars'?|
It's not really that much fun.
This thread was discussed between 09/02/2006 and 17/03/2006
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical BBS is active now.