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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - NAMGBR V8 decision
|Below is an Email that was sent by an MG (non V8) owner to the editor of the Driver magazine. It is his reaction to the decision by NAMGBR to separate MG conversion and factory V8's. The conversions will now be called "the modified class" and will not be judged and no awards will be given. This will be the case at all NAMGBR events.|
After reading Dan Masters' article in the January/February issue of the "MGB Driver", I have some concerns regarding the addition of the new "Modified Register". With the quickly growing number of modified MG's, I can see the need for the addition of the class with the growing of V8, V6 conversions as well as other radical performance and cosmetic enhancements. However, what I don't understand is why this class would be excluded from award eligibility at NAMGBR events. Other than "Concourse" and specific individual awards, event participants are all eligible for "Popular Vote" awards. Why would we not want to include those folks who have chosen to modify their cars? There is, at least equally if not more, effort and preparation, not to mention creativity and innovation, put in to these vehicles as there are in the "conventional" classes. I believe it would be a HUGE mistake not to include those folks in eligibility for some recognition of their efforts. After all, we are charging them the same registration fees as every other participant. I feel that not including the modified vehicles in popular vote award eligibility, will discourage many folks from attending and sharing their efforts and creativity with other enthusiasts. That would be a great loss!
I fully understand that "modified" cars could not compete among the "Concourse" class and that there are other "specific" awards that are given to exceptional vehicles that represent preservation and significant achievements, however, modified cars represent significant effort and should be included in popular voting.
For the record, I do not have a "modified" car, but have many friends and fellow Club members that do and I feel it would be a mistake for them not to have the opportunity to receive some sort of formal recognition for their efforts. If my understanding of Dan's article is correct, I really think this decision should be reconsidered.
Member # 8-3790
|Interesting information. I just received my latest issue in the mail and havne't seen this yet. I hope they reconsider also. As someone who has worked on numerous show committees I understand the need to limit the number of classes to both conserve trophy expense and limit participant confusion in balloting, but we've never disallowed anyone from competing in a popular choice field. We've always figured the folks knew best, and would choose cars that were worthy. Yes "red" cars usually garner more votes etc:, but that's true no matter what class they're in. We all know that if we want to win trophies we know what we'd need to do. Most of us don't care that much, just want to drive and enjoy our cars.|
|Well this is the typical BS that I expect from the register. I have a modified MGB (B-PLUS) you might have seen it a few years ago. I have taken a beating from fellow enthusiasts who in no uncertain terms told me that I ruined the car and it was no longer a real MG. they did not know that the car burned, totaled and ready for the crusher. unfortunatly for them the car has done extremly well winning awards just about everywhere especially the UM summer Party. |
|Let me finish my rant. Cecil Kimber took a stock automobile and modified it so that other people would like it. But if you or I do this to our loved MG's we are a lower class citizen and should not be allowed to participate for awards at register car shows. Bull S--t. I've got more time and money in my car as you do than most of these people who only wish they had a car like yours. If the register wants just stock MG's or concourse cars I suggest we avoid these events with our cars and fund special awards for the modified class, or lets call it the Kimber class. thank you for the opportunity to vent.|
I totally concur with you.
While I appreciate the "restored to original" MGB (but then...just what is that?)...
Lord knows I appreciate the conversions that I (and others) have done to the MGB.
While the V8 gatherings have indeed had only one meet where there were awards given (and not all that well received), these gatherings are of a completely different mentality of a general meet. The V8 meets are all about comaradarie, performance, and appreciation of what is, and has been done, etc. to the car. No one cares about the hardware.(Awards)
To play Devil's Advocate...I believe that this (above) is where NAMGBR came to their conclusion regarding Factory and Spurious Conversion and the decision to eliminate awards.
No big deal to me one way or the other...but...if it's a National Gathering, in my humble opinion, there should be awards available to thos who with to partake.
But...a little recognition would be nicenow, would not it?
Two original MGC Tourers
One somewhat spurious MGB 4 banger
One spurious MGB/GT V8 conversion
Dan Masters has put a lot of time and thought into revamping the Register to make it more inclusive. For months, many owners of V6 and other variant MG have felt out of place, as they didn’t have a factory V8 or conversion.
By splitting the register into Factory (Costello) and Modified, Dan feels we can welcome other conversions into the Register.
As per the elimination of the Modified class, I believe that Dan was trying to emulate the fellowship and non-competitive nature of the British V8 gatherings. The host club picks many of the car classes for the national conventions. The MG Owners Club of Northern California, host for MG 2007 have included a Modified Class at their car show.
Dan’s article in the MGB Driver was his proposal for reorganization his part of the V8/Modified register. It is not set in stone and I appreciate the time that Dan has put into his proposal.
I really am not that big a bastard :)
See you and Dan in a few hours!
I appreciate the work that has been done by Dan and to a point agree with the Factory and Costellos being placed in a class of there own. Even after accepting that point I still cannot find any logic in the the modified class being treated like "red headed step child " and not being included in the voting at any NAMGBR sponsored events.
A few more points.
a) How many factory V8's & Costellos are there in NA and how many actually turn out for shows.
b)The "modified" class is the fastest growing class of all and will continue to be so.
c)What incentive is there for an owner of a "modified" to register at a NAMGBR event he might as well park his car with the bonnet raised in another part of the hotel parking lot. Is the NAMGBR bank account so full that it can turn away registration fees. I would appreciate if someone at NAMGBR calculate how much was received by way of fees for the National Show at Gatlinberg from the "conversion class"
d)The fellowship between conversionists will always be there that is the nature of the beast but why separate them from everyone else! NAMGBR is a popular vote show where everyone votes for every class and I cannot see any reason for change.
|Do the Costello cars have different serial numbers (VIN)? The Costello that just sold on eBay didn't list a VIN. So I really don't know.|
If they don't, then why put them in a factory class or in a Costello class? Whats to keep someone from saying their car is a Costello? (We will end up having the same sort of problem the Tiger guys have with the converted Alpines).
And if no trophies are to be given out, what kind of initiative is there to go to shows? Personally, I like to look at my fireplace mantle and see trophies.
Don't get me totally wrong, I enjoy going to the various meets, I have met a bunch of really great guys. And made a bunch of new friends, so I won't stop going. But the point of why are we charged entry fees with no carrot (trophy) dangled in front of us.
|Mike, I had the same problem with the NAMGAR. When I had my '57 215 V8 powered MGA at the Mt. Hood, OR. GT, they wouldn't let me in the altered MGA class. They said the class was only for B engines in a MGA and no V8's. Now I guess they changed it so V8's will be let it the show. I'll find out this July when the GT-32 will be at Whistler B.C.|
I think we agree that the comfortable, non-judgemental comradery of British V8 meets is part of what makes our crowd so much cooler than clubs of "purists". We're an inclusive bunch - not some kind of fraternity that turns away people or that judges one car less perfect than another.
Quote: And if no trophies are to be given out, what kind of initiative is there to go to shows?
FWIW, I've never gone to a show to win a trophy, and I never will.
Here are a few reasons why popularity-contest voting is a waste of our time:
1) There's no "ideal" or "perfect" modified car. (Certainly we're not trying to duplicate Factory or Costello cars!)
2) Only a handful of us are interested in show-quality paint and chrome. (I'm NOT putting down people who are!)
3) Voters are by-and-large completely unqualified to judge the integrity and functionality of performance modifications - let alone all the hidden modifications.
4) Even if voters were qualified, they'd have to drive the cars to judge them in their element. Voters usually don't even get the hear the engines run.
For me, the important thing is that modified-car owners get a nice place to park together.
|Ah, so it has finally happened! The MGB has joined the ranks of the T series, and the MGA. It used to be you could do almost anything to a MGB, and the "purist" didn't care. After all, its "only" a MGB and there are "lots" of them around. Just dont mess with a MGA! Eh Dad!|
I like to go to the shows to check out the modified cars, because they are different, and you get to see some clever engineering. They show individual taste and creativity.
So the only real issue I have with all of this is, if the modified owner has to pay the same entry fee, or not. My money is just as green as the next guy's. If I pay the same price, I should be able to vote! If they want the modified cars as exhibition only, they entry should be less, and I'll gladly park in the red headed stepchild section!
|One of the reasons I like participating in the British modified V8/V6 activities is precisely because there are no awards. Hey, ever notice that most of the voting at local British car events is based upon cronyism, politics and local club friendships? How often have I seen people sit beside their MG during an entire show (never getting up to see what else might be of interest)for the specific purpose of soliciting votes for their beloved MG. These people are missing the point. Ever take your mg to a British car event 200 miles from home where you are not known? You could have old #1 and find yourself not receiving an award, for the reasons stated above. I'm not against this award thing, it just has to be put into perspective. The real reward in the modified V8/V6 events is being able to see the engineering that has gone into these vehicles, and enjoying the company of people who are just as crazy about these cars as yourself.|
|Are the MGB chrome-bumper conversions also going to be excluded? Or is this all about the engine/transmission?|
I have a '65 shell that eventually will be some sort of "conversion" car - probably with a Toyota or Nissan/Datsun engine/tranny. Therefore, I do have an interest in this topic.
As for entering car shows to win - I don't. I drive my car, or my hubby drives it. I don't vote for trailer queens just on principle...
I honestly think the conversion cars should be eligible for "conversion prizes" in a class of their own. And I think the chrome bumper conversions should go in that class, as well.
I don't have a V8, and everything inside the engine block of my car is, AFAIK, stock. However, by the end of this summer my 73 CB roadster will have the following stuff. A lot of this is already done, BTW.
- pertronix EI Dizzy
- MSD 6A
- Ported & Polished head & intake manifold
- K&N filters - no cans
- Datsun mag wheels
- Datsun 5-speed tranny
- 96 amp Delco alternator
- Gear reduction starter
- Electric cooling fans
- Rollover bar
- CD player with XM satellite
- Cruise control
- Air Conditioning
- Fiero seats & armrests
- RX-7 dead pedal (okay, this one's silly - but it would cost me concurs brownie points)
- ST air dam
- Gas struts to hold up the boot and bonnet (thanks to Rick Ingram!)
- Uprated electrical system with 75/100 headlights
- Daytime running lights
- Higher wattage turn signals, marker lights, and brake lights
- Third brake light
- Halogen dash lights
- Squarish oil pressure gauge replaced by older style dual gauge
- Clock - NOS Smith's in modified radio panel
- Vacuum gauge - in modified radio panel
- Switches and warning LED's for fog lights and electric fan - in modified radio panel
- 3-speed heater fan speed switch - to run the Fiero blower motor installed in the heater box
- Modified heater control valve, courtesy of Bob Munchausen's website
- Emergency hood release
- Late-model coolant recovery system
- Oil cooler thermostat
- Given enough $$$, I'll also have Second Skin Damplifier all around, Prestige interior and Mr. Mike's seat leathers.
I likely won't ever bother entering the car in any shows just so the old ladies don't pee in their Depends, but here's the deal: It's my car not theirs. If folks don't like the changes, well, they shouldn't make any to their cars. Just leave me alone about mine.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: My car's color is Guards Red - a Porsche color. ;)
|...and seat heaters.|
|Mike has it pegged in his post!|
My thought is similar to another famous Southerner, Rhett Butler, "Frankly, Scarlet,I don't give a ?????"
This subject seems to have created some interest not only from the modified side but also from the originalists.
I have read all of the above postings and one point made maybe the core of the problem. That the regular MGB owner is "completely unqualified to to understand the integrity and functionality of the modifications bla, bla, bla " ....... Is this saying that the conversion class is far to difficult for the average MG Owner and show registrant to understand and therefore he or she should not be allowed to vote? This also comes across when one reads the Driver magazine whic states the reason for the change. One could also take it further that when someone votes on other classes do they know everything about a TD, a TC or a 1972 mgb roadster, of course not they would have to know Clausager word for word. How many people out there actually understand what is an original Costello or a fake. People vote for what they like, which is not always based on what they understand! Please do not treat them as technology morons.
I have noticed that there is a Modified class on the reg. form for MG2007, if it is a voting class then will this not go against the National policy for NAMBGR sponsored events.
|*****People vote for what they like, which is not always based on what they understand!*****|
This statement is true across the board: presidential elections, high school class officer elections, car shows, best actor/actress awards, etc.
"Popular vote" balloting is just that. If people want to get "real" awards, they should enter the concours events, or those shows that judge in concours fashion (the Memphis car show judges this way, I believe, in addition to popular voting).
Yes I drove an MGB to show to Indy MG 96, Hagerstown MD. MG 98, Minnesota MG 2001, St Louis MG 2003, and Gatlingurg Tn. MG 2006. With acceptation of Gatlingurg I didn't know a sole at those shows. I have also driven and shown an MGB at Shenanoah Va., Louisville Ky. , Cincinati Ohio, Charleston S. C. , Nashville Tn., and Winston Salen N.C. with out knowing a sole. Guess what I won at all those shows. Not because of who I knew but because I worked very hard and my cars have never been trailer queens. They have always been driven to the shows. When I vote at a show it is never for friends or palls. The car has to stand on it's own merit. And I start with engine bay. If the bonnet is not open then wont even look at the car. If the bay is nice then I look at the paint and body. If that is good then I look at the interior. The last thing I will look at the the front tires to see if the car was driven or a queen. If it is a queen then it gets no vote from me! When I go to a show I'm there to compete and be inspired to improve my cars. Don't get me wrong I like the social part of MG meets but picnics are for socializing and I have hosted one of those over 20 years.
If I'm going to a British Car Show I am there to show and be inspired. I'm not going to drive my MGs eight hundred miles just to socializes. I can do that at home and a lot cheaper.
|In 1998 I drove my 73 Black Tulip MGB up from Dahlonega Ga. to Hagerstown Md. to show at MG'98. I remember seeing all the V8 at the show and how very nice the cars were.|
It took me a few years to put the car together but last spring the car did it's 1st show at Blount Co. British Car Show. They put me in a class called Special Roadsters.The class had a 120 Jag, a 30's BentlY,
a Jensen Healey, aLotus and a few others. I knew that it was going to be like that at most British Car Shows
until enough of us started showing up at the same shows and demanding a class. At the NAMGBR Show I knew it would be different. The V8-V6 MG's would be recognized like
all the other MGs.
If you take the show awards away what make this any different than the local British Car Show. If we are not competeing why pay to be in the show? I can go on a drive anywhere park the car and draw a crowd of people to talk about the car. Or just park next to the show without paying a cent and get the same benefits under this new plan. I think this is step backwards.
Member Number 1-566
Guess I struck a nerve there...and thats good because your comments contribute to a healthy debate...you are to be commended for your achievements and the awards that your efforts produced. At one time I probably shared your competitive enthusiasm. However, I now find my self not needing awards to be inspired and I will definitely drive 800 miles to simply be in the company of people with similar interest that I can share ideas with and drink a couple of beers in the process. I am not saying that your points are incorrect, what I am saying is that I simply do not care about the awards. Others may disagree, and thats fine with me.
|I'm a member of the club hosting GT32. I'll enquire as to the status of Modified MGA's and where they go. More out of curiousity than anything else.|
|midgetentioned in an earlier post, Dan|
|i commend you bruce and dan for taking a forward thinking approach. change is not always easy and just the step to call it a modified class is a huge one. if there are some that want their cars to be judged and given awards than maybe 2 classes of entry? 2 colors of signs to show which cars can be voted on and charge them (judged) a higher entry fee? this may even work for the stock mgb crowd as i know many people that could care less about awards and just like driivng to events and seeing their friends, jim|
|Start yout own judging.|
Best Replica (original V8)
The purists are probably pissed off that the V8 conversion cars get more attention (with the GP)than the concours cars, what is a concours MG any way, should it have OPUS (opless) ingintion and only start on warm days? Should it include the the distinct lack of quality control the original cars had? Any MG that has been lovingly restored in no longer original.
Just stiring the pot, I could realy care less. It's not why I built my V8.
Just a little contribution from over the pond. Back in the early 1980s, in the MGOC, there were always specific classes for Concours and Condition.
Concours meant that no deviation from the standard factiry car was accepted. I have even seen Concours cars moved to Condition Class because a fire extinguisher was bolted at the front of the drivers seat. I personally would have considered it a Safety feature - but rules are rules.
Condition Class meant that entries could be 'tastefully' modified and included Kunifer/Copper break Pipes, Stainless Steel braided hoses, Chrome Rocker covers and even Stereos!
I think that the same rules apply in the MGOC today although I no longer 'Show' my cars.
There is always room for ALL at Show Events and just to dismiss an owners car from entry on the grounds of cost of trophys is just 'penny pinching'.
Of course, the organisers of events have every right to limit entries and set the standards but, at the end of the day, we all love and are rightly proud of our MGs. Some cars may not have been modified from standard to everyone's taste but "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".
Live and let live guys, we're here to perpetuate the Marque after all.
|Most of the supposed stock MG's (T's, A's, B's etc) have some modification. Now everyone knows that. Sometimes it is a subtle thing, like halogen bulbs in your tail lamps. Sometimes it is more obvious, like non factory sized tires. Have a concours for the purists, judged by a set of rules and let everyone else participate in the popularity constest, modified or not. All attendees get a and to vote, and all attendees get a chance at the "I like you and your car (but especially your pretty wife or girl friend or boy friend) more than I liked the others" award.|
Ok Mike I can see your point of view. After seventeen years of showing the awards no longer mean as much to me as they once did.
But wonder if I would be willing to keep the car in show shape if the awards were not a part of the showing? Would I be willing to drive 800 miles in the rain, and the dirt then spend 4 to 6 hours cleanning up the engine bay, the inner fenders, the wheels and the body? Would I clean the interior and trunk? Would I do it after a full day of driving when I want to just kick back and relax?
Yes I love drive my MGB V8 as well as my stock 73 B at speed in nice mountain curves without much traffic. Most shows require a lot of expressway driving with alot of traffic. At the end of a long 8 to 10 hour day of driving you end up very tired and in a strange place. Not very safe condition to be driving your baby. So I wonder if I would be willing to still do this without the awards to
motivate my self. I ask you Mike if you don't care about the awards when you do shows do still you keep your car in show condition?
|Chris, et al....|
It's called "pride of ownership".
I pay my registration fees; I put my cars onto the showfield; I rarely clean the road grime off beforehand!
It's all part of the comaradarie.
I've driven my MGs from the Midwest to each coast, to Florida and Texas, to Canada, as well as parts throughout the Midwest...not with the hope of bringing home some hardware (which has occurred), but because I personally find the driving experiences to and from the meet equal to if not at times better than the time I am actually at the meet. (Not to say that I do not enjoy myself while at a meet...because I still believe that my MG is the catalyst that caused most of my friendships to bond.)
FWIW - YOMV
|As a rubber bumper owner, I can say "Welcome to the world of the second class citizen!".|
Now that I got that little quip out of the way, this is just wrong. I haven't read the article mentioned, but does it mentioin the reasoning behind this? I understand keeping the cars out of the concourse or stock categories, but to completely snub them?
If I was a member of NAMGBR, they would be one member short after this. I don't know if there is a cost associated with membership, but I say vote with your wallet. That may get their attention.
I plan on doing a V8 conversion in the near future so I guess as far as NAMBGR is concerned I will be a "third class citizen".
|"Welcome to the world of the second class citizen!".|
Third class citizen? NO way! Quite the opposite in fact. I suggested the modified class so we would have a group where we would be with our own kind, where we would NOT be treated as a third class citizen, as is often the case in the "stock" classes. I am the owner of an MGB that is being heavily modified, so I definitely would not be wanting to put myself into a "third class citizen" position. See my car under construction at http://www.advanceautowire.com/mgbgtv8
"I haven't read the article mentioned, but does it mention the reasoning behind this?"
Yes, I did give my reasoning for this. How do you compare one modified car against another? One car might be a "luxury" boulevard cruiser, while another might be a full on race car. How would you decide which of those two is the better car? Or a V8 vs a modified four-cylinder? V8 vs V6? Supercharger vs engine swap? I don't know how to decide.
We have an annual British V8 meet, ten so far, and we give no awards. So far, there have been no complaints about the lack of awards. Every one comes to these meets enjoy the camaraderie of fellow enthusiasts, to look at other cars, and to generally have a good time. With no competition, there are no egos to be bruised, no stress to get your car into shape for judging - just kick back and have a good time. Everyone is more than eager to share what they know with each other, keeping no secrets, and we all enjoy seeing what others have done. We appreciate the low-buck, home made jobs just as much as the high dollar professionally built cars, with no jealousy at all. If we were to hand out awards, that spirit of camaraderie would be spoiled, and there would be hard feelings should, for example, a high buck car beat a home built. Or vice versa. What if the top three awards go to V8s and no V6s? Or all V6s and no V8s? I see nothing but pain should we give out awards. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, and the spirit of our group, read the review of the 2006 meet written by a participant who had no concerns about not being able to get an award: http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/V8-2006-Overview.htm
In my proposal, I presented a very simple criteria for determining if a car belonged in the modified class or not: If YOU, the owner, think it belongs, then it does. We won't second guess you. By the same token, no matter how modified you car may be, if you decide you don't belong in the modified class, you don't. You may enter into the class you would be in without the modifications.
For myself, and most of the others, an award has no significance when compared to the compliments of our peers. Somehow, a five dollar trophy doesn't even come close to hearing a fellow enthusiast walk over and "nice car." I'm constantly reading on the various forums about how much we all enjoy these cars, how we have a special affection for them, and how much we enjoy the "spirit" of the older cars. Somehow, to me, that doesn't jive with the concern for the possibility of getting an award. If winning an award is important to you, then you have the option of NOT entering the modified class, but to enter into you "regular" class. Chances are, you'll be considered a "third class citizen" in that class, and you won't enjoy the event as much as you would if you were over with us, your own kind, in the modified class, award or no award.
The NAMGBR belongs to YOU, the members. If enough people object, then we will, naturally, change things to suit. So far, however, we've only had a very few objections to the new class and the "no awards" ruling.
Having a discussion and listening to all the members is what NAMGBR is all about.
I am very proud of the organization and the great group of enthusiasts we call members. Dan made a proposal and published it in the MGB Driver. Both Dan and I have heard both positive and negative comments about the idea. That is what we were looking for…feedback.
Jayme, I would be happy to mail you a copy of the current MGB Driver, no strings attached.
Look it over and judge for yourself what our organization is all about. My email is listed above. Just send me your address and I’ll mail a copy.
Chairman – North American MGB Register
Thank you for your explanation on why you think the modified class should get no awards. I don't necessarily agree with you though. Now that I reread what I wrote, I can see where I might have come off as an ass. This was not my intention.
I understand that you would prefer to keep it like the British V8 meets, but it seems odd that one group of cars at a "Car Show" would not get any recognition and no awards. Am I misunderstanding something, or is this not a car show?
To your question of "How do you compare one modified car against another?", you pick the one you like the best and you think has done the best overall job. Plenty of car shows manage to do this all the time, with modifed coupes,sedans, Chevy,Ford,Dodge,etc. I feel this is a cop out.
I like the idea behind the V8 meets and hope to eventually get around to one wether I have my car converted yet or not. This is one thing I have always liked about them, anyone can come. It just always seems like they are held where or when I can't attend, :(
Personally, I never plan to have a show car. I like going to car shows, but I can never see myself seriously entering one. My cars will always be drivable, and not something that I need to leave in a garage and only take out on the above 75 degree sunny day.
I was just speaking my mind on what I thought was a bad idea. I guess I also misread and thought that this was a decicsion that was already made, and not a proposed change.
Thank you for your offer, I may take you up on it.
|I have again read the article in the Driver and the posts on this situation again and again. The following comes to mind.|
a) The creation of a modified class is a good one.
b) A NAMGBR meet is now a meet where "all" cars can be entered and everyone can vote for any car they like. By having no vote for the "modifieds then you are creating an aloof class because the "other" MG owners do not understand and cannot relate to the modifications. This is really a negative oppinion of the "other" members.
c) A British V8 meet is NOT the same as a full NAMGBR event, it is for one class of car therefore it seems only right that the owners decide themselves whether there is voting.
d) As regards to the article,it realy does give the impression that the only thing left was to rubber stamp. Maybe feed back should have been gathered earlier from all sections of NAMGBR,
I still believe the only change should be the creation of the Modified class, which would be a good one, and leave the rest alone.
|I still maintain, if you pay the entry fee to get into a show, the cost of a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, place trophy should be easily gleaned from the entry fee. The trophies I have can't have been much over 5 bucks, if that. I do agree that I like the compliments from others and that's one of the big things about going to a show. But when the show is over, if I have a trophy, I can see it on my mantle, brag to buddies that didn't go and basically have all the memories of the show triggered by the trophy. |
No trophy will mean I just might not go, or go and not pay the entrance fee. For me, it's that simple.
Now, within the modified classes, separate out the rotissere restored cars from the normal cars. Give them their special modified concours class or something. Give the rest of us a chance. Whatever is done, give the winners trophies.
The basis of the objections I have seen are on no trophies being given. Don't be cheap. Most of the guys that have converted MG's have spent a lot of time and money building their car. In many cases, a lot more than would have been spent on a 4 banger original. You may be alienating the more well to do members of the MG society.
I love the MGB, this V8 is my 1st V8, and my 6th MGB. It is by far the best one of the bunch.
Once you go 8, you'll see that it's great!
|Richard, et al...|
While I agree with the concept of the new Modified Class for NAMGBR meets, I disagree with the removal of awards for this newly created class as I do not feel that a National Convention of this caliber will be of the same feel nor of the same draw of participants of the British V8 meets that I have been a part of since 1999.
BTW...trophies cost CONSIDERABLY more than $5 each for the style that is awarded at a national meet. BUT.....I know that NAMGBR is NOT considering the removal of awards because of the cost of the trophy itself...there is NOTHING financial whatsoever in this PROPOSED action. Dan's proposal is conceptual in that this is the style of meet that works best for the British V8 group...
I personally feel that this concept as proposed may not be in the best interest of neither the registrant of a NAMGBR National nor the NAMGBR itself.
I trust that the NAMGBR Executive and Dan will come up with a workable plan for all involved.
|It seems to me that this isn't all that complicated. Yes, there definitely should be a modified class, hands down, no question. The entire reason for classes is to promote fairness. As for awards, that is very simple. Select "Judged" or "not Judged" when you register and pay a somewhat lower fee for "not Judged". That way those who don't want to be judged don't feel like they are being slighted and paying for something they aren't getting, and the results of the first few meets will tell you if it's even an issue. Other shows do it that way and it works. The increase in registrations will more than offset the lower fees for non judged cars. What's it cost you, a parking slot?|
More importantly, you will promote Namburger membership by treating the modified's fairly. I've owned a modified for 28 years and have yet to join. You want me as a member? Then be fair about your dealings. Any perception of unfairness, no matter how unfounded is going to turn me and others away. When I see a class for my type of vehicle and the preception is that they are getting fair treatment, I am more likely to sign up and pay the membership fee. But no money goes if I don't like what I see. It's my money after all.
As for the modifieds getting the people's choice award, so what? If you have an original and you don't think there are enough purists around to vote you in over a few modifieds then you are already in trouble, and the only way to protect your turf is a downward spiral into obscurity. Same for the modifieds, same for the restorations. If three years running the modifieds take it, then make two awards and split the class. In the long run it'll be worth it. Oh, and keep track of the winners from previous years. If they are a tie with another car, the new owner should get an award, just to keep fresh blood in the ranks.
|"We appreciate the low-buck, home made jobs just as much as the high dollar professionally built cars"|
Thanks, Dan! ;)
Heck, give them a trophy. I don't have a show car so I don't care. I just like the parking space!
I do have some concerns over what is considered modified. I don't relish being parked next to a hopped-up 4 banger. Now, if I wind up parked next to a stock MGB that the owner thinks is modified because it is a 1000 watt thumper machine I'm not gonna be in a very good mood (might have to break out the wire cutters)! After all, This is the class that was formerly known as the V8 class (or the V8/V6 class). I hate to see it get watered down.
|"By having no vote for the "modifieds then you are creating an aloof class because the "other" MG owners do not understand and cannot relate to the modifications. This is really a negative opinion of the "other" members." |
This was not my intention at all, and I really don't think that is implied either. My reasoning behind suggesting that there be no awards was exactly as stated. When a car is entered into its "regular" class, whatever that class may be, it will be competing against other cars just like it. It will be very easy to make a comparison and decide which car is "best" among those like cars. This is most decidedly not true in the modified class.
Just for comparison, Mike, let's compare your car to Curtis Jacobson's car. You've modified you car to make it as close to a "Luxury" car as an MGB can be made. Curtis has stated, if I remember correctly, that his goal was to remove anything that didn't look like a race car. Both cars are well done, but they are totally different cars. There are many other examples of this disparity between design goals that I could mention. What chance do you think Curtis has of winning an award next to your cars or other similar cars? If the voting was done only be other modified participants, it might be different, but how many of the non modified voters would see and appreciate the work that's gone into Curtis' car? I imagine Curtis doesn't care, but after losing out over and over again, owners of the "race car" type modifieds might get discouraged.
Over time, with an emphasis on awards, I'm afraid the spirit of camaraderie that now exists will be lost, and worse, the modifieds might tend toward a more or less standard approach just to get awards.
Every one is entitled to their own opinion, but I simply can't understand the importance of awards. The few times that I've won an award, I've tossed the award in the trash, because it meant nothing to me. Let me give a couple of examples of why I feel this way (other than my natural disdain for awards of any kind - I even tossed my college diploma in the trash): At one meet I attended, the were 13 TR6s in attendance, most were better than mine, and about 6 of them were WAY better than mine, yet I got second place. At another meet, there were only four TR6s, and the other three were no where near as nice as mine, but I didn't get an award. Winning or not winning an award is totally irrelevant. Having won a trophy really doesn't mean a thing. The trophy I won was wrong, and the trophy I didn't win was wrong. Even though I won a trophy in the first instance, I knew I didn't truly win it, so why would I keep it? If I put it on a shelf and showed to friends, I'd be lying, because I didn't win it. How did the owners of the cars that should have won feel to see my car beat them? Who needs that kind of dissension.
As I stated previously, if there is enough feedback, we will change the awards rule for the modified class. So far, there hasn't been much. I've only seen a very few comments on it. I don't know how many comments the club officers have received. NAMBGR belongs to the members, and the club officers will respond the desires of the members.
Carl: I don't know how else to determine if a car is modified enough to be in the modified class other than to let the owner decide. Not having awards will keep most mildly modifieds out. Entry into the modified class is strictly voluntary. If awards are important, then the car would be entered into its regular class, where awards are given.
Jayme: Your comments were taken as you intended them to be, as constructive criticism.
Peoples votes are not always based on what they understand, in our case more than often their vote is based on what they like. This goes for any car class, at any show. I believe that this should continue throughout all the classes including the new modifieds.
|People vote what they like it won't be long before the MG's with 17" rims will be winning shows. Typically people vote for the people they like not the cars they like. If there is no criteria to shoot for the award means nothing.|
|"Peoples votes are not always based on what they understand, in our case more than often their vote is based on what they like."|
I agree with you, and this just strenghtens my convictions that awards shouldn't be given in the modified class. Nevertheless, your vote has been recorded, and we'll do whatever the voting calls for.
I'm not into the awards thing, either, but I do know several people who ONLY have MGs to enter them in shows and win stuff. Heck, I'm thrilled with my packet full of freebies that I get when I park my car on the showgrounds.
I also put my "entry number" in that packet and leave it there - meaning, my car isn't in on the balloting. Why? Because it's a driver, and comparing drivers to trailer queens isn't "fair" either (although I only vote for non-queens).
If NAMGBR (I still haven't renewed my membership) is going to separate out the engine conversions, I suggest they also separate the dailies from the queens, the cb conversions from the rbs, the all originals from the even-slightly-modified (including engines, interiors, electrics, etc.). I mean, come on - if you wanna make it "fair" you oughtta make it "fair" for everyone.
|Mike & Dan-|
What is wrong with people voting for what they like? If only people who understood what they were voting for were allowed to vote, we would have VERY small elections in this country.
Do we administer a test prior to allowing people to vote in other catagories to insure they are capable to vote?
I'm sorry, this is so much B.S. If you pay to enter, you are entitled to be voted on for the purpose of winning whatever awards are given. If you think awards are meaningless, then do not display a car number, and no one will vote for you.
|as noted earlier in my "Rhett Butler" comment, my happiness and atendence at any "meeting" is not determined by awards or lack of. my first venture into the V8 realm was in Townsend in 2003 where i purchased a Hydraulic Throwout Bearing from Dan Lagroue AKA D&D Fab. this intial purchase was the first step in my V8 journey. did not have a V8 donor car at the time. my 78 "B" was completed in time for the 2004 meeting in Terre Haute. we finished around May 20th and drove to Ind. without any breakdowns getting 26 MPG. my 4 cyl. only got 24 MPG. we chsoe a total EFI Ford 5.0 from a 93 Mustang and its entire drivetrain. No Regrets!|
Plan to see everyone who attends the meet in Cleveland Oh. in 07! rewards yes, awards?? keep up the good work Dan!
|dan & bruce: since you are taking votes i am in the agree with you camp. jim blackwood proposed that we have 2 seperate entry fees and judged/non judged, i think i also suggested a similar senario earlier in this thread. this makes the perfect compromise sense to me. |
some of the comments i have read i find interesting: "Am I misunderstanding something, or is this not a car show?" car show does not mean a trophy show. i know several brit car clubs that hold shows with no votes or trophies
"I don't relish being parked next to a hopped-up 4 banger. Now, if I wind up parked next to a stock MGB that the owner thinks is modified because it is a 1000 watt thumper machine I'm not gonna be in a very good mood (might have to break out the wire cutters)" funny, they may feel the same way about being next to a backyard conversion thats lost it's BL lineage.
if there is going to be voting, most all cases are like anon said, people vote for their friends, not the cars. i have seen this at every national or regional MG show i have ever been to. if you are going to have voting/judging and awards than the only fair way is to have a set of written criteria for the modified class with the judging being done by a panel not peoples choice.
again, i commend both of you and the board for forward thinking and looking to make positive change. food for thought: since one hurdle has been crossed to change the name of this class to modified, how about we cross the next hurdle and drop the british v8 meet moniker for the more correctly named british modified meet?
|"funny, they may feel the same way about being next to a backyard conversion thats lost it's BL lineage."|
Huh? Why would they feel that way if they parked their car in the Modified Class? As for the lineage, the Buick/Rover V8 IS in the BL lineage.
"one hurdle has been crossed to change the name of this class to modified, how about we cross the next hurdle and drop the british v8 meet moniker for the more correctly named british modified meet?"
Here we go.... I told Bruce & Dan that this was my biggest objection about the proposed changes.
I am glad that you are reading this Board, but I did forget to add the following to my previous post.
You suggest that there should be no voting for the new modified class, but there will be voting for the factory V8/Costello class.
My point is that a Costello roadster was never a factory car, therefore it is a modified, it is a V8 conversion.
Being the first still does not change the fact that a Costello is still a conversion/Modified how do you differentiate between a Costello and any other car that has a different engine than when it left the factory?
|"Posted 02 February 2007 at 01:01:03 UK time|
Jim Stuart, Maryland, USA, firstname.lastname@example.org
What is wrong with people voting for what they like? .... If you think awards are meaningless, then do not display a car number, and no one will vote for you."
If people are asking what brings people to car shows it's a valid question. I used to go car shows at the local events but you see guys whom everyone like get awards and people who were not part of the "In Crowd".
To answer you question, people don't take the number off their car, people like me quit going to car shows like this because it's just like being around high schoolers. I have other activities worth my time. If you want people to NOT bring the best cars or the most cars or the most interesting cars by all means, do what you want. It's your show. I don't have to be there, my friends don't go any more and a many others have moved on.
|I agree with the last poster. At MG 2006 I watched as the eventual winner of their class gave cold drinks (including beer) to voters to garner votes. I'm sure this is standard fare at major shows. I was offered a free carpet set for my TF restoration. This is BS.|
Like Dan, I prefer the way it works at our V8 Meets, but this may be different for NAMGBR.
I tried to express my concerns to Bruce, Dan, Rick, & others that this was a slippery slope two weeks ago (before I had even seen this thread) at Ted's Winter Party.
NAMGBR is not the British V8 Meet. They can do what they wish at their car shows. I've only been to one, MG 2006. Awesome show. I needed two days to see it all. Sadly, it ended early due to a brief rainfall & participants desire to secure parking back at the motels.
James M, as you have been informed in the past, you are welcome to host a Meet & call it what you want. Like I said before if doesn't say V8 in the title, I won't be there.
"Carl: I don't know how else to determine if a car is modified enough to be in the modified class other than to let the owner decide."
Sorry, Dan. I don't think it should be up to the owner.
NAMGBR should have some minimumn requirements for the class.
Here's a start:
1. Bought it from MOSS.
Not in the modified class.
2. Stock engine.
Not in the modified class.
3. Megawatt Stereo.
NOT in the modified class.
4. NGK spark plugs.
See rule #2.
5. I'm hangin' with the Spurious Guys!
|re: I tried to express my concerns to Bruce, Dan, Rick, & others that this was a slippery slope two weeks ago (before I had even seen this thread) at Ted's Winter Party.|
I listened to you.
I've advised others that this is indeed a "slippery slope".
|So.... This is fun.|
Bruce, Dan, Rick - This is a tough job, and I don't envy your work here. I guess it's a good thing you're getting paid the big bucks to do it for us. Heh, heh, heh. ;)
Thanks for your reply to my questions about keeping the car clean. Your right about pride of ownnership. The shows awards are important to encourage people to have pride of ownnership. It is a large part of what compells people to keep there cars in good shape. The shows bring ownners together to share the human experiences of ownning and driving the cars.
I'm also very glad that you drive your cars to the shows. That is more important than anything. Tailer Queens don't do our marque any good. We all ready suffer from a bad image as unreliable cars. As drivers we both know they are very very reliable cars if given proper care.
The question to address is why have awards for any class? As a High School Art Teacher for 30 years I have put on 2 student art shows a year for the past 17 years with awards for different media classes. The quality of my students work improved 100 percent after we started the show awards. The entire importance for the awards is too encurage people to take better care of the MG cars. There are a lot of MG's in ruff shape out there that never get any TLC. We need to incourage people take better care the cars. As a national club I feel it is our mission to encourage pride of ownnership and to treat MG Cars as a car of value. Too many people think of them as a joke or cheap toy car. I have seen many modified MGB's that looked very ruff and I think it is important to encourage people to do more than take a junked rusted B hammer out some space and put a V6,RX7,or V8 engine in it with out finishing the rest of the car. If the awards are an important part of incouraging pride of ownnership for stock MG's then they are also an important part for modified MG's too.
Thanks for everyones passion!
|Chris, et al...|
I have indeed been lobbying to keep awards for the entire show field at any NAMGBR National Meet....be it Concours, Standard Class, or Modified Class.
It is indeed...Pride of Ownership.
As I've stated before, the "no-award" concept of the British V8 meets works great...for the British V8 meet.
MY OPINION: I do not believe that it is appropriate of any MG Register to "omit" rewards to any class of car recognized on the show field for their yearly convention. It sends the wrong signal.
|Rick,this will never be solved well enough to please everyone.We've all seen it at every type car show.At streetrod shows,they lump us into the "imports".At a national event,I hope to be in a class with "similar" modifications.At least give me a chance.Voter trends change.Popular vote is just that."Give the people what they want!" and you will win. I vote trophies! Mike Moor p.s. enough with the "red-headed step-child" comments!!!|
|I drove one of those 'bashed out with a hammer' mgb's for a good many years, (literally) and it wasn't until I was satisfied with the resolution of a good many issues both large and small that I applied paint. So personally I resent any implication that an owner with a less than perfect car is in any way negligent or uncaring. But aside from that, I have to admit that associating with an organized group of car enthusiasts and seeing the high standards of fit and finish gave me an incentive to finish the job.|
More importantly than that however, is that such an association, and yes, the possibility of winning some sort of award or trophy, gives an owner an almost compelling tool with which to pry loose the necessary dollars and time from the family purse to be able to put the car into condition. How many of us here will admit that in order to bring our car up to snuff we persuaded the spouse at least in part by brandishing the prospect of a trophy?
To me that is as good a reason as any.
|Just base the award on something; not just "best car" or the car/person everone likes the most. Give some criteria regardless of who does the voting. Make it based on a group of items. For a stock class have questions like rate the paint condition, acuracy, shape of the interior, wheels, engine compartment, accurate carb, markings etc. The one's that did well will get noticed.|
In the Non-stock class, rate the fab work, the restoration quality item by item perhaps some items with more importance then others.
Give them criteria to judge a car by not just "Who do you like the best". Make the award worth owning. I have used a few awards to mix filler on because they are not worth anything. I even patched a panel with metal from one!!!
|Aawh, screw the shows & awards. Anyone want to race?! I say Drive 'em hard!|
"enough with the "red-headed step-child" comments!!!" Good to see ya here, Mikey, but I'm biting my tongue on this one. ;) See ya, Bro!
|I believe that there is a French phrase for what is happening here:|
"Fuque du Clustaire" comes to mind.
I also believe that there have been some very valid points posted throughout this thread....and wish that those who have posted anonymously would use their regular monikers so that those thoughts, ideas, comments, and concerns could be processed and forwarded to the NAMGBR Executive with a little more validity. Anonymous comments tend to be disregarded in most circles.
I received the following from an MG Enthusiast today via e-mail:
I find Dan’s comments like “I’ve tossed the award in the garbage, because it meant nothing to me”….”welcome to the world of the second class citizen”….”we would be with our own kind”…… DISTURBING….
Modified MG’s as well as V6 or V8 conversions ARE unique……but are they more unique than any other MG and should they be treated differently…..I think not. They (the conversion guys) have their own gathering and what works for them at it (no awards) should be continued/respected. NAMGBR events likewise have a system as well as established rules for their shows and if it works for the NAMGBR and is mandated by the governors of NAMGBR fine…. They (the conversion guys) should respect this and if they don’t agree or don’t like the idea of awards as a form of recognition (if that is the way the NAMGBR elects to go)…..no one is forcing them to attend or partake if they do attend.
Ok, finally to the point of this whole issue…..the splitting of the Factory and conversion (modified) cars. I feel that both are distinct entities within the MG world and although similar in nature, they are separated by history and design. The proposal to separate them is justifiable……but neither should feel excluded in any way or means as a result of this.
To me, the final paragraph really says it all.
|[quote]I find Dan’s comments like “I’ve tossed the award in the garbage, because it meant nothing to me”….”welcome to the world of the second class citizen”….”we would be with our own kind”…… DISTURBING….[quote]|
Evidently, the person who sent you that e-mail didn't bother to really read what I wrote. I really do hate to be misrepresented.
I don't want awards. If others do, then so be it. let the voting begin.
|Dan, if you don't want the trophies you are given, why don't you stop entering shows and give the guys that might want them more of a chance? And if you are saying the trophies are given not based on the car, but on the owner, my guess is your trophy days are dwindling as a result of your recent reply.|
As far as this idea of no trophies, seems like most of the posting on this board are against your idea.
As V8 Registrar, it strikes me that your ideas (postings, letters, MGB Driver articles, etc) are going to carry more weight and are more likely to impact the V8 community more than something written by almost anyone else. You need to keep this fact in mind whenever you publicy make a statement. You are in somewhat of a political position no matter what you think.
The statement that you have thrown trophies in the trash is offensive to me. If you want to throw them away, that is your PERSONAL business. But again, I think it was in horrible taste to tell it to the world.
|Dan, et al...|
Just an FYI...
The quoted e-mail in my above post did NOT come from a "modified MG" owner....
I sincerely hope that this all comes to a "happy ending" for all involved.
I have to put my trust into the NAMGBR Executive and Dan to come up with a workable plan for all .... and I hope that no one comes out with the proverbial "black eye".
In my opinion, the needs are:
1) Guidelines as to what is "modified"...I do not feel that an owner should be able to "enter and leave" a class on his/her whim. All this may possibly do is to create hard feelings with all involved...the "modified" owner as well as those in the "regular" class that he/she joins should an award be given....and visa-versa for a "pseudo-modified MG" placed in the "modified" class.
2) All registrants of a NAMGBR National should be eligible for popular voting.
(Take a look at Scott Miller's RV8 clone...which took "best of show" at Twist's in 2005. If the "modified class" is to become a non-voting/non-awarded class, how would MG enthusiasts show their appreciation for Scott's efforts...other than the well deserved "Laurel & Hardy handshake"/pat on the back.) You pays your fees, you get to play all of the games.
This whole concept concerns me. Someone is going to lose here.
The following is I believe the quote Rick was refering to it is contained in one of your previous postings.
Every one is entitled to their own opinion, but I simply can't understand the importance of awards. The few times that I've won an award, I've tossed the award in the trash, because it meant nothing to me. Let me give a couple of examples of why I feel this way (other than my natural disdain for awards of any kind - I even tossed my college diploma in the trash):
|"Dan, if you don't want the trophies you are given, why don't you stop entering shows and give the guys that might want them more of a chance?" |
For the reasons I've already given. I go to the shows for the camaraderie and to look at and discuss the other cars. Do you only come for the awards?"
"And if you are saying the trophies are given not based on the car, but on the owner, my guess is your trophy days are dwindling as a result of your recent reply.
What are you trying to say, Richard, I'm going to be blackballed? I'll repeat: I don't want awards. Period!
"As far as this idea of no trophies, seems like most of the posting on this board are against your idea."
If that's the case amongst the general membership, then we will have awards.
"As V8 Registrar, it strikes me that your ideas (postings, letters, MGB Driver articles, etc) are going to carry more weight and are more likely to impact the V8 community more than something written by almost anyone else. You need to keep this fact in mind whenever you publicy make a statement. You are in somewhat of a political position no matter what you think."
Maybe, that doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to express my opinion.
"The statement that you have thrown trophies in the trash is offensive to me. If you want to throw them away, that is your PERSONAL business. But again, I think it was in horrible taste to tell it to the world."
This whole discussion has been about personal opinions. I have just as much right to express my opinion as anyone else. If it offends you, then It's just too bad. The whole tone of your post offends me.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm sick and tired of this discussion. In my very first post on this subject, I wrote:
The NAMGBR belongs to YOU, the members. If enough people object, then we will, naturally, change things to suit. So far, however, we've only had a very few objections to the new class and the "no awards" ruling.
Don't argue with me any more, simply post a note to the NAMGBR chairman, Bruce Wykoff, and vote. Don't bitch, don't whine, just express your opinion and you will be heard. You can write to Bruce at email@example.com
This is the last comment I'll make on the subject.
|Seems so simple to me. |
Have modified class. A modified car would/could be any car not restored to OEM specs. Could be 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,10,12 cylinder, steam, electric, or nuclear powered, what ever!
Charge an entry fee. If the fee is the same as the other classes, then there should be trophies and voting. If an onwer dosn't want to be voted for, they can simply not display their number. As some one said in an earlier post.
If NAMBGR wants the modifieds to be display only (no voting), then the fee should be less. Or better yet, they should be paying us to bring our cars, and giving the folks something interesting to look at!!!
Voting for a modified. Whats wrong with voting for the car you like? It's like judging paintings or any type of art. If its pleasing to the eye, I vote for it. Cars are no different. Thought/design, quality of workmanship, how it all comes together, if the car has all of this, it gets my vote!
It's easier then judging concours. Ever try and judge E-type Jags? They're all restored to factory pristine condition. I finally end up just picking one!
"enough with the red-headed step-child comments" LOL!!Good to see you chime in Mike!
|My feeling, |
Either have cars judged based on something or not at all. Having "Best Buddies" contest is insulting if you participate or not.
|Oh my. Shades of the past here...|
|so there you go!!! a topic can never really be done until the Miz weighs in on it, well said.|
Best Buddies Awards? Please give NAMGBR Members more credit than that. At all the national MGB shows that I've attended the popular votes were very honest and fair. It is not hard to tell if a car is well prepared or not in any class.
With MG Passion
|I'm really going to tick off a few people now. I build showcars to win at shows. There I said it. I spend countless hours in a cold garage and spend untold amounts of money on my MG's to put out the best peice I can. I take it to a beauty contest (car show) to see how it stacks up against other folks like me who like to do the same. I like to win trophys. Oh! I said that too. Not for the sake of the trophy but the recognition by folks like you for a job well done! Call me an egotist, thats OK. It keeps me motivated to do a better job the next time. I want you to bring your best effort to the show field so that I can try to beat your effort. Fortunatly I have won many times but I have lost just as many and it just makes me work harder. Oh, buy the way I don't care how you get it there, you can fly it in on a helicopter if you can or trailer it in a climate controlled rig. Once were on that field of battle the competition begins. I trailer my cars to long distance shows, Oh I said that too. I take my family to events and unfortunatly you can't fit four people in a two seat car. So, we go and have a good time and drive the car at the destination. Is my car a trailer queen? I don't think so. I have a trailer so that I can enjoy the car with my family. So let me pay to support the event and you bring the best car you can. we will duke it out on the field to see who get the top honor. and it really is an honor. And then we will have some laughs and maybe a few pops and then leave as friends only to go back to the shop to redo things better. There, I said it.|
|Kudo's Jim! Your the most honest person here!|
|Chris G, i have seen "buddy" voting at most mg shows i have ever attended, i saw it in 2001 here in mpls with some friends cars, i saw it last year in TN, one of the most agregious cases, yes this may offend some, was a couple years back at the NAMGBR in st louis. a st louis resident with an uncompleted conversion car that was not even painted or driveable yet, took second place? cases like these beg for a set of judging guidelines or a panel of judges not popular votes. but than again if there are no awards who cares?|
Jim P, good for you, i know many brit car and street rod folks just like you. i myself do not have the time right now to make my car that nice but i certainly appreciate the work and someday i hope to be able to get mine to that level. your post makes the point for two classes, judged and non judged.
what we really need here is more political correctness, there is a lesson to be learned from the "soccer mom" mentality. we want everyone to feel like a "winner" and to go home happy, so i say everyone that enters gets a first place trophy!! or maybe just "winner" ribbons for all, easy enough. jim
|Usually if poeple could never win a show on merrit they are "too good" to care about that".|
|OK James I won my class at Minnesota, St Louis, and Gatlinburg plus Indy 96, and Haggerstown MG 98. So I must be one of the most popular MGB owners in North America. Everbody must know who I am. So tell me do you know me? What color is my car? If I am that popular then you must that but I bet you don't.|
The truth is that the only one I knew at Minnesota or St Louis was Charles and Perky Long. My wife and I were the only people from Georgia at those shows.
With MG Passion
|chris, this is a thread on conversions, which is what i referred to in my post, i don't know your car but i am pretty sure it didn't win the conversion class at 2001, st louis or gatlinberg, i cannot remember whom won at indy and i was not at haggerstown.|
|added, sorry i hit the button too fast, my apologies chris if my post sounded like i thought all voting was via buddy system, i have seen it in many cases would be more accurate, i am sure your car was worthy of the votes you received, jim|
|Yes James I thought that you were refering to all voting as a buddy system. Didn't realize that you were only refering to the conversion class.|
The car I was refering to in all those wins was my "mostly stock" 73 Black Tulip MGB.
Now this thread really gets interesting.
I had another car at Gatlinberg. A V8 Conversion Class MGB. It took about 5 years to put this car together (maybe I'm slow?) and Gatlinberg was the car's second show. The car was very lucky and got 2nd place. Lucky because Mike Milks green V8, Mike Moors purple V8, and Mike Cook's Silver Lady to name a few were all there at that show too. I know these cars because they were some of my bigest inspiration in putting my car together. The car that won the class ... Scot Miller's RV8 well that car deserved the win it was in a different league.
Being from Georgia, there were a few people from my local club at a National Show for the 1st time. Maybe they voted for me and not my car, but Mike Cook is from my club too. His car is as as nice or nicer than my car.
As far as those other shows go I don't know if it was a Buddy System but I voted for the car. At Minnesota 2001 I voted for Bill Jacobson's (whom I have never have had the chance to meet) Red Chrome Bumper V8 with a GTO hood scoop. I thought the body work was really nice.
It didn't win but I never thought it was because of a "Buddy System". I am new to this class but If that were true there would not be much of a reason to bring a car up to show level or do these shows.
Question? If everbody in the shows are from all over the county with MG'S from pre war PA's to 1977 Midgets gets to vote how could the "Buddy System " work? No body has that much free beer to give everyone.
ALWAYS VOTE FOR THE CAR NOT THE PERSON!
With MG Passion
|Well the few shows I've been fortunate enough to attend have always been alot of fun, and I've never won anything. Having a chrome converted V6 doesn't win me trophies, but if you want to find me at the show, just look for the crowd that always seems to gather around my car. I guess the most fun is the drive there and back!|
|Well, I'm going to stick up for Chris Gore, since most of y'all don't seem to know him (he probably doesn't remember me, either). Chris is fairly new to the V8 conversion family, but I remember that Black Tulip GT from the Townsend, TN show years ago (Blount British Car show). |
The MG 2006 Show was so huge, I didn't notice "The Red Pearl" (Chris' V8 roadster) until the rain had sent most everyone racing back to Gatlinburg for parking spots (I was busy slobbering over all the TFs at the show). Man, what a beauty! I'd want it judged, too, if it were mine. I'll upload a pic to jog everyone's memory.
Maybe I'll just start leaving my beater in the parking lot...'cept on race day. ;)
Our group in Ca is called BMC British Modified Cars
It's about sharing our ideas and having fun, rather than Judge others workmanship.
Mr Masters is just carrying the V6, V8 (In numeric order) gathering philosophy into the Registry, and do not see anything wrong with change. The best award is the one you recieved when others look at your car and give you an honest complement, that is the best.
Imagine setting a class for BMC How would you make a set of rules to fit such cars, when they all are different, even if they have the same engine. That is the problem that exists in the Street rod scene, the one with the good looking paint ussually wins and said ussually,not always, engineering is not awarded, chrome, goodies and paint are the central focus of judges and even other MG owners when they are judging at car shows.
Where there is competition, friction does exist.
I have attended two V6, V8 Gatherings, NO AWARDS and we had a great time. One we drove our V6 RD from Ca. to TN WHY, the people!! we shared ideas told stories, drank beer and laugh, no tension of who is going to win, it was more about driving and social meetings.
That is what is all about, FUN!!!!
Car shows were intended to share the cars with the community. Car gatherings intention is to bring people with the same interest together.
and I believe this is what Mr Dan Masters is trying to do.
Perhaps it should be two groups, one with awards and the other without.
It shows on some of the postings the friction of competion and that is to bad.
There is nothing wrong if anyone wants a trophy for their efforts, I just rather don't see it at the V6 V8 gatherings. I am sure there are other British car shows were trophys can be adquire with V6, V8 MG's
As one who's chaired a local British show, I've learned some lessons the (very) hard way. What's important to me personally may not help grow the event and therefore, bring in new enthusiasts. To have the broadest appeal, any judged show needs fair classes, awards, and everyone treated with full respect. It's the owner's option whether or not to display the car number on the window placard for judging.
These comments aren't intended to reflect in any way toward the magic of the British V8(/6?) meet, which for me, is the perfect meet.
Once we modify a car, it may be proof we really don't care too much about offending purists, although we're just trying to show how MG shoud've made the car in the first place. Personally, I've been put in some special classes that border on "Bas**** Heathens", and I don't want a hint of that at NAMGBR.
We drive a car, We pay the fee. We want to build enthusiasm. I vote for a Modified class (V6-V8), with awards.
|Chris Gore's "Red Pearl":|
|I wanted to take the opportunity and let those of you who have been following the discussion concerning Modified class at NAMGBR events to know the Executive Board has made a decision.|
We agreed the register should be split into the Original and Modified groups.
A decision was also made concerning the voting for and awards given to the Modified class.
We think that participating in the Modified Class at a NAMGBR event should not exclude you from receiving votes for your project and receiving awards.
As always, if you want to participate in NAMGBR events but do not wish to receive votes for you car, please note that on the windscreen card.
If you have additional questions, please feel free to contact me.
Bruce Wyckoff, Chairman
North American MGB Register
|Thanks for the update, Bruce.|
Now. I have a question. Is the "modified" class only for engine conversions? Would it include putting a '68 engine into a later car? Would it include aesthetic changes, such as chrome bumper conversions?
That brings us to the next question…what is a modified car.
In answer to your question, swapping an older B engine into a newer B doesn’t qualify as a modification in my opinion. Some may or may not agree.
We will need to draw up some kind of guideline.
Glad to hear that common sense has prevailed, but as you have aleady noted what defines a modified? Unfortunately not everyone will agree with the outcome.
To keep it simple, may I put forward the following as a starting point, again trying to keep it simple.
a)Only an engine change (non MG engine, which includes the Rover V8) denotes a "modified".
b)Cosmetic improvements such as Rubber to Chrome,non factory color, changed interior,alloy wheels, are NOT modified.
One other point where will the Costello's be placed, will they be with the factory V8's? After all a Costello was the first MGB modified.
Thanks for your work on this matter.
|Nice points, Mike, but I'd like to put forward that chrome-bumper conversions also be separated into their own class.|
|I have to agree that the Costello cars pose a problem. As the first conversion, even before the factory car, they certainly can't be called original. But they are numerous and noteworthy in that the factory more or less copied Ken's work, and in some forums they are lumped in with the factory cars. Not saying that's right or wrong, just is. The other thing is that, coming from one source they are relatively consistent with each other whereas the other conversion cars are so varied that hardly two are alike. This makes the Costello's easier to judge and more like the factory cars. How you can resolve that I don't know, but would suggest a survey of Costello owners, and perhaps factory car owners, and maybe a post on the factory V8 board. Undoubtedly the conversions group will welcome them either way.|
|YES! Now the fun begins. I hope the person/s making the new rules have an understanding of what a modified car is. Just chrome pieces,paint (other than stock), a pair of dices hanging from the rear view mirror,wheels, Webber carb etc. does not make the car a modified.|
A modified car is one that has engineering involve and creativity, combine with dependability and it's unique.
|The International Show Car Association (ISCA)has all the rules needed in their rule book. to make it short a modified car needs three major modifications to classify it as such. A non stock engine is one, A non standard or custom color is another a custom interior are all major mods. Three minor mods make up one major. Example, custom wheels, additional chrome non stock carb etc. Cars that do not meet the three major mod rule would remain in the stock class.|
|Hopefully, no mg register currently in organsation will hopefully EVER become a clone of the ISCA.|
|I just checked out this thread for the first time, and having read all 93 posts at one sitting, have a few comments.|
1. Whether you like trophies or not, to offer them in all but one class is discriminatory. I'm relieved by Bruce's announcement that there will be trophies offered in modified classes.
2. I don't think it's fair to separate us into two camps: "purists" and "modifiers". Many of us are both. My intentions for each project I take on vary from car to car. On one car, I may try to be as original as possible, on the next, I might choose to heavily modify.
3. Regarding "qualifications" for voting, I admire quality above all else. I'm not qualified to judge originality in many MG classes - but that is what concours judging is for. Beyond that, no, I can't drive a modified car so I can't appreciate its performance, but that goes for the stock classes also in that I cannot assess a car's performance. Maybe some of the trailer queens don't run at all! But the one thread that is common to all classes of all cars, stock or modified, MGs or Chevys, is quality. I can appreciate attention to detail, quality of paint and upholstery, polished cleanliness of carb linkages, etc.
4. Among our reasons for going to car shows is to be inspired, and who among us have not been inspired by the examples of Chris Gore and Jim Pelletterie, to name just two? If the anticipation of a trophy is the driving force behind these superb examples, then let us have trophies - even though they might be meaningless to some of us - only because their presence motivates such a wonderful feast for the eyes.
5. Regarding the "buddy system": is there any kind of human venture that is incorruptible? Voting is flawed, but by and large it works. And there is an inverse form of buddy system which is, I think, healthy. Chris, you may not remember me, but I have voted for your car at shows from Grand Rapids, to St Paul, to Waynesboro, to Atlanta. Never because I know you (at least a little) but because of your car. And having watched you beat out non-driven cars, even when your black tulip '73 was a daily driver, mostly because of your dogged dedication to detailing, I can't help but regard you, at least in spirit, as a "buddy". But the car came first. While I see Jim Pelleterie's cars less often, the same certainly applies. Frankly, if either of these guys were to point out some feature of my car that they would like to copy, I would ask them to write that down and I would frame these comments and display them most prominently in my "trophy collection"!
6. I have driven cross-country in cars that were mechanically, but not cosmetically restored. I didn't feel belittled when I did not receive an award. Getting there was half the fun. Getting back was the other half. The car was a winner in my eyes for what it did, not for how it looked. Does that mean it should have won something? Of course not! The car drew a good deal of attention from the likes of Mike Ash, Ed Sass and Art Zeisk. For that, I was proud.
7. What constitutes a "modified" car? Why don't we just decree that the criterion is a non-stock engine. Let us not quibble about an 18GB in a '78 MGBl, or an 18V in a '66 model. The NAMGAR folks recognize 1800 MGAs in stock classes. The correct engine for a B-series car is a B-series engine. How many of our cars have "numbers-matching" engines anyway? How many of us even know? How many of us have "numbers matching" engine ID plates only?
8. I don't care for the idea of modified cars showing up in stock classes at the owner's whim. It doesn't seem fair to the stock car owners when voters walk past and say "oooh look at that!" referring to the V6 or V8 car parked next to ours. Other factors being equal, voters will be impressed by the unusual. In fact, I saw a slightly scruffy looking factory V8 win in an "Other British" class at a NAMGAR meet once, simply because it was unusual. There were several other cars in the class that were clearly better detailed and more deserving.
' Just a few random thoughts. ' Sorry about the length and thanks if you've actually read this far!
Thanks for your kind words. It means alot to me. I've enjoyed driving to the shows but the trip back has
always been the best part. The trip back allows more time to explore new worlds on back roads. My wife and I have seen some very cool places on those trips.
With MG Passion
This thread was discussed between 19/01/2007 and 08/03/2007
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical BBS is active now.