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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - NEWS FLASH!!! not an advertisement

THIS IS NOT AN ADVERTISEMENT!! I'm sorry if the sounds like advertising but this affects everyone on these pages and this is the best way to reach everyone. These are not products made by my company.

There has been a tremendous breakthrough on direct replacement bolt on electric water pumps for the following applications: Ford 5.0, Buick 215, Rover 3.5-4.6, Chevrolet 4.3, and most Ford and Chevrolet SB and BB. Other popular applications available. If you would like more information please email
Dann Wade

No Dann, but they are products sold by your company which does indeed make this an ad!!
While some of your info is helpful, as of late you are becoming a bit much.
No I am not going to put a my name on this! Just consider me one of the many who had enough of your advertising on the BBS!
I am surprised that you have not been band!
At least Bill Guzman does things in a more favorable light.
I 100% agree with Ted, some time a few bad words are needed.
Tired of Ads

Afraid I don't see the big deal. This particular item about electric water pumps may be useful to me in the future. A contribution from anybody that has a business could be seen as an advert; if some guys take fuller advantage of the venue than others, why is it so bothersome? If you don't use your name, how can your concerns be taken seriously? Joe
Joe Ullman

i cant see the problem either, im also always looking for good products in keeping these old cars running and any input from people or companies developing parts for our cars is considered helpful, Mr TX i thing youre word are to harsh and i can say probably not the view of everbody on this BBS.
dean stanton

Myself, I see this as a problem.

Dann is shamelessly advertising this pump.

I like to know about new things too. However, I wan't information like "don't use <gizmo>, it doesn't do anything", or "<wizzbang> is amazing." (in detail).

Further, I wan't that information to come from somebody that wouldn't make any money from me buying the product.

Really, what did Dann Wade's post provide here?

How does it further discussion? Heck, the subject isn't even related to the message Dann posted.

If it came in email this would be spam, and the aol account would have been cancelled by now. Why is it that since this is posted to a BBS that this is any less advertising?

There is a place on the BBS to sell stuff. This is not it.

As to the comment "if some guys take fuller advantage of the venue than others, why is it so bothersome?", bollocks.

This is a venue for enthusiasts to discuss cars. It is not a place to advertise services. Would you be as ok with this if it was Moss Motors advertising their current sale?

Trust me, if you allow a few, you have to allow them all, and at some point the dearth of advertising in a forum makes it useless to use for actual discussion.
Aaron Whiteman

And if it reached 'some point', it could possibly bother me. Moss advertising as a company in the threads would not be right, but Dan's an individual. If it troubles you so much, don't read it, and go to another thread. My opinion may be 'bollocks' to you, but it's still my opinion. By the way, I almost moved to Pullman once, but decided against it.
Joe Ullman

OK Mr. X so you really want a flame war then.

First of all how many members knew these products even exsisted? ( raise your hands). Now how many think these products might help prevent overheating and add horsepower and make the V8 installation a more desirable installation? (show of hands please.)

I didn't want a flame war but there is a time when I'll get enough of your comments. I really don't give a care what you think frankly. If I can help promote interest in any of these 4, V6 or V8 conversions I will do it, here or anywhere else. I don't sell this product for your information and I don't put this information here just for you. I only deal in the 60į V6 engine anyway which don't use these products.

You can stick your attitude. Yes I'm *issed! I try to do the right thing and no matter what I do someone JUST HAS TO tell me that they are "offended". Do you really care about anyone else but your self? No one is forcing you to read this material. Do you actually think I'll make money doing this? This is a hobby for me. My real business is in another area. I don't see making any contributions !!!. So what if I do get baned.It's not the end of the world for me but it could hurt that person out there who realy needs the information. I might get zero interest from this column. Why do you always think you speak for everybody?

This column has a voice, they will use it. Show me the rules on this subject of advertising as you claim it is. If I do get baned it will be my own fault and I don't need a cry baby making suggestions about it to the host to try and persuade the owners of this website to get involved. I'll continue to serve those who have faith in me and say what I have to say even though you may pick up disinters along the way. Why don't you and Teddy suck up and shut up.
Dann Wade

> There has been a tremendous breakthrough on direct
> replacement bolt on electric water pumps for the
> following applications: Ford 5.0, Buick 215, Rover
> 3.5-4.6, Chevrolet 4.3, and most Ford and Chevrolet > SB and BB. Other popular applications available. If > you would like more information please email

Man, call up the NYT and have them STOP THE PRESSES!!! This is worthy of an international news conference ... a real breakthrough!! ... you *did* clean your fingernails today, right Dann?

You're just talking about a Meziere-style water pump. Well, they gave out the Nobels last week, hoss. Even so, the likelihood of my car sporting an electric water pump is less than the likelihood of a meteor striking the state capitol in Concord this afternoon. It's less than the likelihood of you, in the next decade, getting a good [ ] ... errr, yeah, that.

Dann, Dann. You know what I'm going to say. I'm disappointed: I respectfully disagreed; now I just disagree.

Dann, it is quite simple.

If you want to advertise, use the proper channels. A hint:
LBCcarCo is using them. So are a few others; the ads appear at the top of the page. This is the _only_ "right thing" when it comes to advertising. I don't know, perhaps you could even get your ads to show up only on the V8 forum, thus maximising your return.

Even more simple. If you don't want you posts to be taken as advertising, post something useful.

Tell my _why_ an electric pump is better. Tell me _exactly_ how it provides better cooling (HP is pretty easy). Tell my _why_ I should care.

Don't just post "Hey, these just came on the market, and you can buy them from me".

If you can't find a way to make a post that contains more than a thinly veiled ad, consider not posting it until you can.

Frankly, "electric water pumps" reeks of "fool born every minute", just like the electric turbo I saw on ebay a while back.
Aaron Whiteman

The above sentence should read "I don't see you making any contributions."

I am already regretting losing my temper, my apologies to this column............... except to Mr. X.

Also to Mr. Whiteman. I offer plenty of "I like to know about new things too. However, I wan't information like "don't use <gizmo>, it doesn't do anything", or "<wizzbang> is amazing." (in detail)."

Wasn't that the very core of my context? Thank you.

Dann Wade

Thank you gentlemen I just knew I could count on you to continue "THE FLAME WAR"
Dann Wade

> Wasn't that the very core of my context? Thank you.

No, it wasn't. Apparently, you missed the "(in detail)" part.

let me try this for you:
step 1.
make the topic "Electric water pump" thus making the topic accurate to the post.

step 2.
Describe (in the post!) how this "electric water pump" works, and why it is better than a mechanical pump (especially given the lucas wiring that may still haunt your average MG). Explain how it provides better cooling (in the post!), and more horsepower. Tell my of your _personal_ experience with this device.

step 3.
remove any reference from above pertaining to you selling these things.

I would go in more detail for you, but since I don't know anything about this "electric water pump", it would be difficult, wouldn't it?

No more responses from me btw, I am having enough problems with my fever at the moment.
Aaron Whiteman

These interest me, but not for any of the above stated reasons. They have the potential to increase the space for a rear mounted radiator fan. Is there information available on this? When I looked for this before it appeared that the pump location would cause other problems. Dann if you have information could you post it? That would be handier that everyone e-mailing you for information.

I must agree that the subject heading of electric water pump would be more informative and less likely to provoke comments about advertisements.
George Champion

George,You really stand up to your last name. A little title humor got a few people zinged. Thank you for stepping in and bring this thread into focus.The only reason I wanted email is to keep an inventory of those who were interested. I have talked to the factory engineer/ owner. He expressed he would be more willing to research for more products if enough interest is shown. Its very difficult to find ways to document this sort of thing.

Anyway,the best way to do this is call Meziere at 1 800 208 1755 and order a catalog. Tech help is 760 746 3273. I am just a relay man not a dealer. They are the best source of answers about distances and other questions. I don't think that it is toll free. As far as I know they are the dealer and Mfg.of the Rover,Buick Etc. type pump in the states.

The Craig Davies pump got a bad rap from the labs at Auto Speed. Go to and look around. They have a very informative article on the subject of electric water pumps.Because this type of pump is independent from load and frictional losses they can add HP and assured cooling efficiency to any engine.We use them on everything that we would like to tweek out. I can assure you that any quality electric pump will help the performance and drivability of your engine. All the modern street racers are going for these kind of pumps. Maybe we know something.:-) I'll try the edge every time to learn something. BTW, Sorry about the flame war on the website. If I helped you it was worth it. :-) Dann
Dann Wade

> Because this type of pump is independent from load
> and frictional losses they can add HP and assured
> cooling efficiency to any engine. We use them on
> everything that we would like to tweek out.

Holy F&*^ing S&*%%*#%te!! You've managed to "tweek out" the First Law of Thermodymamics!?!?!! You, sir, are a man among men. A gentleman and a scholar. All the Village People wrapped up into one!!!

Not. Dude, ya done buggered y'self up.*

* ever hear of increased alternator loads, Cap'n?

I'm always interested in "new" or different products & usually welcome any info on them , but I do think Dann's initial posting had a bit of a "con trick" ring to it & could've been worded a lot better.
Barrie E
Barrie Egerton

I'm interested in a more scientific continuation of a discussion between electric and belt-and-pulley pumps. I was under the impression there were power advantages in the electric route, not overall perhaps but at certain times, IE the electric device can take power when needed whereas the mechanical device is running and therefore making frictional losses all the time. There's maybe a useful comparison in power steering where electric assisted racks are replacing the belt-driven hydraulic pump, for instance the MGF. Any engineers out there care to expand for me ?

Teddy baby, you are sooooo boring. "Village People"? You must mean the humble servants of the king? Everyone already knows you are only doing this to attract attention because of your lack of physical endowment. If you had any moxy you would find some real tech info and post it here. Just shut up and let the members work it out. I won't belittle myself to someone who's knowledge on (giggle) thermodynamics is no better than class 101. I will not respond to you any more, so take it some where else. My apologies to the members I will not respond to Teddy the Bear any more.

I gave the phone number for the engineering department above. Why don't you just call them and give them your engineering expertise and quit giving me all the credit for this tech. info? I'm sure they would like to have a chuckle today. Dann Wade

Dann Wade

__sniff__ you're __sniff__ right about my endowment ... you really know how to hurt a fella ... but my shortcomings aren't the BBS's problem and I selflessly direct us back to our regular newscast:

1. That's m-o-x-i-e, not moxy.

2. I don't have any real tech info ... you brought the whole friggin' thing up. But the idea that this pump would be "independent from load and frictional losses" and would "add HP to any engine" is the utterest of baloney -- sounds like a late-night fuel additive infomercial. One must of needs pay the piper somewhere, and the more indirectly one does it (i.e., turns the alternator extra hard so as to generate more amps to power the water pump) the more likely it is that your inefficiencies mount. Now, if you have a helicopter flying just overhead with a power cable down to the car, from which to run the pump, you're right ... ye've freed up some power and my hat is off.

Now, to be fair, I'm sure all of us would relish the idea of a water pump that keeps spinning after the car is turned off. What's not to like about that idea? Even so, electric water pumps have traditionally been the exclusive province of drag racers, who kill the alternator moments before a pass and run for 30 seconds or so off the battery alone. Then it really does help. But you're talking about a controlled situation, where if the pump craps out obviously you need simply dispatch a tow truck a few hundred yards up the road. On a road car, the story's different. Now, Meziere does advertise something like a MTBF of 2,000 hours, and that's a heck of a lot of time. So concededly the quality must be getting better. But until I see these on the cars coming out of Japan and Germany, I'm bearish indeed.

One issue relates to fault tolerance ... if you have only an electric fan, and it craps out, it may be a long stop-and-go ride home but you're certainly going to get home. If you have an electric fuel pump, you've probably learned by now to carry a spare and can just pop a replacement in without too much trouble. Admittedly, you don't wanna be wearing a fine linen suit should your roadside mechanical chops be tested. But a water pump???? How are you gonna swap out a water pump by the side of the road?

Barrie As far as con trick goes, I admitted to George that it was done as a bit of humor. Is that not "allowed" here either? (Referring to Teddy above) Anyway thank you for your comment, It will be taken graciously and with all due respects.

David, I hope you get the responses you would like to have. The following is addressed to you and to anyone who would like to delve further into the subject.

One of our members is concerned about increased alternator loads. There most certainly is a steady draw from the alternator at road speeds when using any electrical component. At idle some electrical systems draw from the battery, especially at night with lights and other devices are on because the alternator isn't turning fast enough to produce enough current.Yes, there is an increase in alternator loads equated to horsepower loss every time a component is energised, like lights, music system, heater etc. An electric pump of the size that is needed to efficently cool a 215 ci engine will use between 4 to 5 amps. This can be equated to loss of horsepower the same as any other other mechanical component in a vehicle such as automatic transmission, brakes, frictional losses in all revolving parts etc., but what makes the electric water pump so viable is it consumes less real horsepower then the pulley system and mechanical water pump altogether. I will try to simplify this as simply as possible to make it understandable. I can't possibly explained it in detail because it would take many pages. This explanation will give you a fair idea of what the system really does. My constituents will certainly join this thread to add to what I have already started.

A typical cooling system with a three pulley arrangement utilizing a belt can consume as much as 5 to 8 hp in frictional losses alone in accordance to the size, type of belt and condition of the pulleys. It's very possible that they V belt probably creates more friction than any other commonly known power transfer arrangement.

Another example of power consummation would be that an air conditioning unit can draw as much as 15 horsepower on an engine producing a 160 horsepower due to frictional losses and compressor load when a V belt is employed

Higher rpm horsepower loss in a engine equipped with a basic cooling system is might best be explained like this:

One of the problems with water or liquid is the faster you try to move it through a fixed orifice ( smallest area in a cooling system) the "stiffer" the water becomes in front of it, especially if the water has a lot of natural minerals in it. This will cause the water to move more slowly at this point. Oddly enough the minerals actually help transfer heat. When anti-freeze is introduced into the water the molecules surround the minerals and reduce the cooling efficiency but increases the ability of the pump to move the water more fluidly. Realizing this, if you can imagine a water pump turning almost one and 1/2 times faster than the crank speed, a typical mechanical water pump can consume more horsepower as the rpm increases. The standard system has no way of regulating the speed of the coolant so horsepower is consumed at higher rpm unnecessarily. The electric pump runs at a constant speed at idle or at higher rpm. An engine can be cooled efficiently with a pump that is engineered to take advantage these conditions. The first thought that might come to mind would be the harder the engine works the cooler it needs to be. This is very true and logical but due to the nature and content of the coolant, the way it flows, and where the calculated range that the load and rpm of the engine are maximized an electric pump can be used to provide maximum cooling at higher rpm and provide sufficient cooling at lower speeds or idle.

This explanation is very basic but without bringing out engineering guides and trying to explain it in complete detail I have attempted to give you some insight on just some of the factors that govern a cooling system. Thanks, Dann
Dann Wade

Sorry, I'm confused: where does one of these go? Right where the regular water pump is?

David I have seen pictures of some electric water pumps that go in the place of the original mechanical water pump and they are all deeper than the original mechanical water pump. That would be no good in the tight confines of an MGB V8.

When this subject came up in the past I researched and found the water pump in question goes inline with the bottom water hose to an adapter that is in place of the original water pump. Unfortunately that location is crowded as really any location in an MGB V8 is. I would think an adaptor where the water pump normally is would be rather flat allowing enough room for a more efficient rear radiator fan as long as the inline electric water pump can be mounted without a problem. That question will remain unanswered until somebody does it.
George Champion

I'm no expert but that doesn't sound so hot George. What's wrong with the regular water pump? I mean it sorta kills two birds with one stone: pumps water and spins a big honker of a water pump fan without fuss. How can an electric fan be better than a motor-driven one???

David that simple question is likely to spark more controversy. Other than the possible advantage of being able to run an electric fan and water pump after the key is turned off so the temperature gauge isnít pegged when you return to the car ten minutes later any advantages in one system over another in horsepower is probably not noticeable. My observation has been that the wisp of air an electric radiator fan moves doesnít compare to the tornado created by fans mounted to the water pump. Therefore the only reason Iím using an electric fan is that the low position of the radiator relative to the motor would have a mechanical fan way too high and the position of the top inlet would limit blade length of a mechanical fan to just a few inches, at least in my application. Iíve spent plenty of time trying to picture a redesigned mechanical water pump that would position a mechanical fan a few inches lower to center it behind the radiator. No success so far.
George Champion

George as you say my water pump fan is centered way higher than the middle of the rad. It just sucks a huge amount of air though, even if it leaves uncovered the bottom part of the core hanging below the sway bar. Not perfect, but I had tried a setup using two 8" electric pullers below/to the side of the crank pulley, and they were way too wimpy. The water pump fan (pretty much the same setup as Tony has as I understand it ... you have to discard the clutch thing and just hard-mount the fan to the water pump pulley) pulls way, way, WAY more air! I tacked a bar of Home Depot-sourced foam across the underside of the hood with small blobs of silicone, to seal it off ... i.e. so the air can't go over the top of the rad. I don't know why I was monkeying around with those electrics -- I was sending a boy to do a man's job!

Have any of you guys tried, seen or heard of putting 'shrouds' around your fans (similar to the RV8 set up) in an effort to direct/force all of the air developed through the radiator and not lose a significant amount of it of the ends/tips of the fan blades?? And if so what result did you achieve in engine temperature?

Kim Porter

Kim, here is sort of a cowl around my water pump fan that was cobbled together from a few TR parts mostly. Actually it was really just an attempt to preserve people's fingers if they had the bonnet open, and to allow the use of a $2.00 block of soft foam that comes down and seals the top of the rad without said foam being sucked into the fan. That seal really helps, and not that it really matters but the engine bay now stays really clean - I never even bother to dust it off any more.

This has got to be the most low-tech setup in the world. There are no air vents or RV8-type gizmos. The fan is just fixed in place, with a slightly less elegant hub than that pictured on Tony's site. This fan does move a heck of a lot of air. There are also two 8" pusher fans on the front of the core that come on at 93 degrees C. Generally the motor runs at about 85-90 degrees C (I just put in a new matched sender and numeric gauge so I'm pretty sure that's on the money). But on a really hot sunny day in stop-and-go traffic it can hit 105 degrees C.

Your link doesn't work - looks like you've got # signs where % signs should be.

Other people who would like to see this very clean V8 installation can cut and paste this address-

I've got a few questions-

-Can you give us a picture of the foam on the inside of the hood ?(inpressive bump out on the hood by the way) I'd like to see how the foam is attached .

-What's the diameter of the fan? Is it TR7 the same as Tony is using?

-What is the shroud from? I assume you cut it off of something else and fitted it to the top of your radiator - or it it the whole shroud adapted to your MG radiator?

Thanks for the excellent pictures. Anticipating more.


Hmmm, who knew. Let's try these:

Here's a picture of the foam thing (I told ya it was really low tech):

It's a TR-something fan. Whether 6, 7 or 8, I dunno. Shroud's just kind of cobbled together from G*d knows what.

Yeah the hood bump is kind of neat. It's the only non-stock thing done to the body. I just wanted to see if an RV8-style bulge would allow a little higher air cleaner. It's a std chrome bumper car with the motor in the std location so there's not a ton of room. (I didn't modify my OE steel hood, which I put in the closet; I simply purchased an old alloy hood from a '64 and had the bump blown into it by a guy with an English wheel. Then I had the cross-brace fabbed and I had a little steel backing plate inserted where the prop tang is attached so it wouldn't pull out of the aluminum.) Here's a picture:


Looks solid. What's going on with the oil filter? ... can't quite make it out.

<<<How can an electric fan be better than a motor-driven one??? >>>

With current technology, it can't,IMO.

I have used a driven fan, like David's, from the start along with the stock twin electrics as auxillaries (that only come on when stopped for long periods in really hot weather) and have NEVER experienced overheating.

What will make a elect fan "APPEAR" more efficient is often the mounting and installation of it. You caould have the best engine mounted fan in the world and the worst elec fan, if the elct fan is ducted to the radiator it will outperform the non ducted engine mounted one. That may be a touch overstaded, but I think it protrays the point. It is ALL in the install.

Much the same way you could drop a 1000hp BBC into a MGB, but I unless you make the car a dragster, our little rover and 302 cars will run circles areound it both straightline and in the twisties. Everything thing is a balance.

Great job once again. Ihope you don't mind if I update the page I have for you on my site with this new fan set-up?? Which fan did you mount to the pump and what it the measurement from the center to out tip of blades? My 302 I think sits the water pump higher up, but I would like to find out. I have a 16" elec puller fan that SHOULD solve my issues, but always nice to have backup!!
Larry Embrey


It's just a cheapo POS cooling collar for the oil filter that I found. I really don't know if it does any good. The car d/n have an oil cooler.


I think about 15". Really don't know what it's supposed to be for ... some old British pile of rust or other. There's gobs of room if you mount it around the pulley though so one might as well stick something there. All I can say is, though you may be tempted, don't go for a metal flex fan unless you like the smell of radiator coolant and have a lot of time and money to waste. Been there, done that. Just suck up the fact that at high rpms a non-flex fan probably wastes a couple of horsepower. You won't notice it because at 5500 rpms you're probably white-knuckling the steering wheel anyhow.

They say -- (whoever the ^*&$ "they" are!) -- that you shouldn't just get rid of the clutch in a clutch fan but in a V8 you have no choice so it's not a hard decision. Nobody has had an eye put out yet.

(Hey can I point out one thing, even though I no longer use electrics as pullers: keep the relay well away from the headers. It isn't that heat permanently ruins the relay, it's that it expands and sticks in such a way that it won't work until it cools back down. Learned that the hard way. Up in the very rear corner in front of the glove box is fine though.)


I agree that ducting & shrouding will aid cooling. I failed to mention I don't have any of that. :) The engine driven fan pulls more air thru the radiator and pushes it out the engine compartment better. It may cost a few horsepower, but no overheating. A fair trade to me.

What's the story on the metal flex fan versus a non-flex type; is a flex fan so flexible that it moves into the rad on hard braking? I was thinking of carefully shortening the blades on one to use, while considering balance. Sounds like it may not be a good idea, but I'd like to know why.


Joe Ullman

Ditto to Joe's comments. Just went out and bought a 13" Derale flex-fan. You've got me worried with "don't go for a metal flex fan unless you like the smell of radiator coolant and have a lot of time and money to waste" Did it break or just not work?

Got the details on the foam on the hood - that was excellent.

Now can you tell me the source of the shroud?


Guys, bag the flex fans. They won't pull even **close** to the same amount of air. Allow me the pleasure of having funded this R&D effort for you. At least I'll know my frustration wasn't totally in vain.

The flex fans will happily and with not a moment wasted flex right into the rad if your motor shifts forward (e.g. on hard braking), which is what happened to me. In the BV8 with the motor in the normal conversion location, the lowest tip of the fan blade is too close to the core of the rad. The rad's basically vertical and the motor tilts back, so that lower point is where you have to watch. It has to be a least one full inch. If the blades even touch the core for an instant, they'll fold over at the leading edge and then dive right into the core.

I grant you that in theory the flex fans probably free up an RCH of HP at really high RPMs, since the blades do flatten out. Can you feel the difference? NFW.


Ah Mr. Porter, youíve got me dreaming of what it would be like to get my hands on MGRV8 fan parts. As I understand it uses a single large fully shrouded electric fan. None of the pictures I have seen have shown this area. I do wonder how it fits and what parts are involved (my anti-roll bar is in the way, is the RV8 different?) and of course what the price would be. Maybe the original supplier would like to expand sales and produce a new batch for the MGB V8 conversion crowd.
George Champion

Okay, David, thanks for the explanation. I still have some hopes of finding a fixed blade, probably plastic, fan to fit, but a 16" puller is a good possibility. Over the course of the life of the car, and me, there's a good chance it'll see both at some time.

Thanks, Joe
Joe Ullman

It seems to me that an electric water pump would indeed free up some horsepower. You just need a really long extension cord and several hundred fast thinking friends on bicycles, or a few dozen friends with airships, favourable weather and vast expanses of unincubered space. I have a contact for airships-THIS IS NOT AN AD EITHER. I'm working on a portable waterfall idea that should really be a breakthrough! Also, I have vast tracts of unincumbered land for those interested. You see what happens? Sorry, I've been away for a bit.

Angus, about that land, could I park my mobile Jaccuzzi on it. If I can, please give details.
Also can your portable water fall would fit in the front seat of a MGB? would I need heavy duty shocks, would my V8 be strong enough or do I need a killer V12? This is very exciting.
BTW, please do not advertise in here, just this time is ok Angus.
Mr. Pockets

OK, so let me get this straight: Some guy who takes this hobby WAY more seriously than the rest of us, post some info regarding some stuff that is of interest to most readers of this forum. For some reason, a few people seem to be upset because he is posting info that we spend hours serching for. I apreciate Dan's precarious position as a "Vendor" vs Hobbyist, but do remember he is on our side and trying to help. Seen his shop: he is not getting rich. I just hope he does not give up. I suspect those who complain have a stake in Moss or Vicky.

I apologize in advance to those who I have ofended. I come to this site to take blatant advantage of those who have more experience than I do. If some of these people should make a bit of money from this, I have no problems.


PS. I wish Guzman would post MORE often so we could keep abreast of his fine contributions to this hobby.


Your original post didn't bother me.

The way you responded to others comments turned me off.

Cross me off your list of potential future customers.


Jeff, OH NOW I GET IT! Excuse me, I forgot that since I'm a "vendor" I have to take anyone's abuse. Vendors aren't allowed to express them self because of their image? Can't we just forget about this and lay it to rest? FYI, you are a little late. I got the message nearly 2 weeks ago. If I really expressed myself to others the way that they responded to me this column would have been smoking. To be perfectly frank, for those who know me, if someone would have personally gotten in my face with an attitude he would most likely find himself in the prone position.

These "Mighty Mouths" usually hide behind fictitious names, no name at all, or hide themselves so they can't be detected. I have been absolutely up front and faced my adversaries with full identification. Some of these members (or maybe not members) cause all the trouble they can or are goaded into making comments. Others are very professional about it and email me what they think. Others take delight in bashing me in these columns even after I make an absolute effort to rectify the problems for whatever reasons. Wazzup with that? I have never commented against anyone pro or con until this came up. I'm not looking for votes here but to get along would be nice. I promised not to advertise and that should have been the end of it.

Please FORGET IT! Your comments, no matter if they are positive or negative won't make me be any more sincere than I am already. Even so, someone will invariably chastise me for this letter and if they do "*crew them." It ain't advertising pal. I never had you on my list of potential customers Jeff, you must have made a mistake. Gee, I hope one of our members noticed that I tried to get every single word spelled correctly.Thank you for your comments. Dann Wade- Dayton, Ohio
Dann Wade

Sorry Dann,
Serious hobbyists need not read further. I, for one, appreciate ANY interesting info that might be useful-- and if you sell the stuff (as a hobby), then it saves me that much more time and effort. Please forgive my carcasm(sp?), and can I interest you in a 25,000 acre HOBBY farm with fleeting river views? I crack myself up! Just to appease, I'm already prone and I think I'm bleeding.


Thanks for confirming my post.

Jeff, Thank YOU sir. :-)

Angus, I am not with out humor. Thanks for your input. You may have read the short story I composed about my "run in" with the dead opossum back in my college days. It was posted here a some weeks ago :-)
Dann Wade

This thread was discussed between 21/10/2002 and 04/11/2002

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