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MG MGB GT V8 Factory Originals Technical - Timing cover housing change
I am fitting a 3.5 range rover engine into my MGB and have been told I will need to change the timing cover as well as the oil pump? Is this correct because I am fairly sure that the Roger williams books says the pump only has to be changed
The timing cover on the Rover trucks needs to be changed because the water pump is mounted very high I have seen several on e-bay for Rover SD-1 here in the US you can now get new ones for a Buick.
You also need to chance the oil pump cover to one like the factory cars had and add a remote oil filter.
Some people use the oil pump cover from a Buick V6 marked "Metric"
|more info. at:|
I'm using a range rover front/timing cover on my MGB.
The RV8 in the early '90's used them as well.
The water pump sits up higher, and is a bit larger. This is not a problem. In fact the pump is a little offset to the right, which is a big help if you want to get an electric fan in behind the radiator. The water pump being higher and offset means there is more room for the electric motor.
You do need to go buy the bottom half of the oil pump so you can mount the oil filter remotely.
I'd suggest that you put the filter down low behind the headlight. I've seen alot done like that. I am going to move mine from the usual location. The main advantage is that on start up the oil lines and filter are down around sump level, already filled. If the filter is up high, even if it is an antiflowback filter, the line up to it must fill before you have oil pressure. If the car has not been driven in a while it does take noisy 5 seconds or so. It also makes changing the oil filter alot less messy.
I saw one instance where someone had placed the oil filter horrizontaly, way down on the crossmember, very neat.
If you have RV8 through the guards extractors, you don't really need an oil cooler unless you want one.
I will leave my range rover cover for now then
Like the idea of relocating the oil filter housing cheers
|This confuses me. The water pump on the 3.9 engine has a very long nose. On my car, this would be inside the radiator, so I can't use it, and subsequently can't use the Range Rover timing cover. To fit the MGB V8's short nose water pump you must have an SD1 timing cover. I would like to see a picture of Peter's installation from the side, showing the water pump and radiator. I can only assume his engine is a lot further back than mine.|
|I'm away at work at the moment Mike, if the threads still current when I get Home I'll post one.|
My motor is set back a bit further than usual, but not to compromise the standard rubber bumper bulkhead. It is however very close and I did dress it back a little, needlessly it turned out, it would have cleared anyway. I've also cut the front tray to level with the upper slam pannel so I could get the 16 inch electric fan in behind the radiator. In retrospect I would have done better to leave the bottom tray alone and fitted two smaller fans, opposite sides, and opposite corners. With RV8 style headers cooling is not a problem.
If Steve's set on leaving the engine in the standard loaction he can get an RV8 water pump. New they are very expensive, but reconditioned ones are not too bad. Primaraly because they only differ by the pulley being set back a little. The standard range rover water pump shaft could be quite easily machined back to match the RV8 one, which is not suprising as thats where it orrigionated.
|Thanks Peter, that helps. You've got a 16" fan - I'm impressed. I've just been fitting a Pacet 11" blower. I hope it will be adequate. Mind you I'm using a Cambridge Motorsports aluminium rad (http://www.cambridgemotorsport.com/MGB-V8-Rubber-Bumper-Aluminium-Radiator) and RV8 style through-the-wings headers, so I should be OK. I've also cut the lower tray back level with the slam panel. This gives an air gap for that part of the rad that would otherwise be obscured and allows the fan to drop below the tray.|
|More than OK.|
After reading about all the over heating problems people have I fitted an alloy radiator and the biggest electric fan I could buy. Massive over kill.
After I had done all this I saw an RV8 which has a much smaller fan, and what looks like a standard late model MGB radiator.
|I was going to locate the engine forward 20mm so the gear lever on my LT77 box was better positioned|
Will I still be able to use the Range rover pump then if I machine the shaft back in this forward position?
I will find out soon enough though as I am trial fitting the engine and gearbox next week to finalise settings before the big weld up and paint
|I would recommend fitting the engine as far back as possible. Address the gear shifter issue afterwards.I have to remove the engine rocker covers, as they foul the firewall when the engine is tilted for fitting or removing. You might keep this in mind.|
Remember, further back, more radiator room and more room under the bonnet.
Gear lever, put a kink in it. Cut bend and weld. Since the MGB gear lever hole is offset half an inch to the left you'll never get it dead center anyway.
|by the way,|
the bottom pulley/balancer is off a rover sd1, the cast water pump pulley is off a air con' range rover, or rover. I had the grove machined 2mm wider. The original worked OK, but I had to change the belt once a year.
The alternator bracket (off a P6) is spacered forward 20mm.
|Regarding balancers, I have been told that with the 3.9 litre engine you must use the balancer pulley for that engine, as this is the only size of Rover V8 that is externally balanced. My informant said that if I put an SD1 or MGV8 pulley on the engine, the crankshaft will not be properly balanced.|
My engine is further forward than yours Peter, but its much too late now to do anything about moving it back!. I'm going to pop it in tomorrow and see just how much space I have got up front. Yours looks very nice. A neat installation.
The picture shows the position of my LT77 gear lever, so you can judge how different my installation is from yours. I have since welded the chopped off lever in the position as shown held by straps.
|Mike, you are correct about the balancer. My motor is a new replacement block (20000Km's on it) for what was a 3.9.|
It has the longer crank of the 4.0, the provision for cross bolts, but no actual bolts. It used to have the oil pump on the nose and the serpentine belt front before I put the 3.5 front on it.
The main reason why I'm using the SD1 balancer is because it has the longer neck so the steering tucks up under it and clears the larger diameter part of the balancer.
Your motor is further forward so you do not need to be concerned. I've often though I would have done better to have the motor about 1cm further forward, to optimize placement.
Steve, if you are going to keep the RR front you are pushing it on space if you come forward. In fact impossible might happen. The RV8 gear lever had a kink in it, forward and to the right. Weight distribution might possibly cause some understeer. That last is however unlikely as MGB's tend to over steer because of the heavy (and very strong) Salisbury diff.
In my case, with the shorter and much lighter (25kg) toyota gear box, I had the opposite problem. I needed to come back about an inch (and to the right to get "off- centered"). The supra box has a rubber boot where the gear lever emerges, so welding was not an option, unless I cut half though, bent sharply , welded and ground off, twice, to get a perfect S shape that the boot would slide over (lots of work and I don't trust my welding)
I thought it might be easier and stronger to cut a small steel block about 20mm to 25mm thick and drilling and tapping two hole/threads into it. Cutting the gear lever about an inch up from the boot and putting a thread on the end. Or drill across and use a small bolt as a pin, or a combination. I'd probably have ditched the top of the gear lever and got a new bit of stainless rod. That way I could have put the lever anywhere I wanted.
However this is all speculation. I was able to get the motor back far enough. In fact I ended up re-drilling the holes on the mounts to place the motor lower and further back. The offset to the right isn't particularly noticeable and is covered by the boot If you can manage to push the gear box up, and the front of the motor down, this tilts the heads away from the bulkhead. It was that that made my small amount of dressing back, unnecessary.
I've also use a 7/8th front antisway bar to balance it all up, handling wise.
I'll attach some pictures, front, back gearlever.
that label under the balancer is the steering.
|back of engine.|
There's about an inch clearance, that metal bump is much further down, false perspective
|gear lever side
|top of gear lever
|Steve, check out this site,lots of ideas|
|Those pictures are really useful Peter, although I don't know of anyone in the UK that has used a Toyota gearbox. I'll let you know how I get on with the trial fitment today or tomorrow and post a picture. |
Incidentally, I have a pal who bought a V8 roadster that was already converted. It has the 4.2 litre engine and it is mounted so far forward that the bulkheads (firewall) on the chrome shell have not had to be altered at all. Needless to say they had real problems getting the carb and air cleaner under the bonnet, and even with an MGC bonnet, the top of the cleaner rubs. One novel idea is that they have mounted the oil filter on the front of the cross member - it's low, but a bit vulnerable.
|Well what do you know? The Range Rover pulleys and water pump both fit behind my radiator, so that's what I will use. The fan goes in front. I haven't tried the alternator yet, but I assume I will have to space it forward as you have done Peter.|
In the picture it looks like the nose of the pump is touching the rad, but there is about 10mm clearance. I'll probably trim the nose a bit to increase this. The anti-roll bar will go between the front and back pulleys, but will need spacing down from its normal mounting position.
All in all a successful day. By the by, isn't it easy putting the engine and box into the car. Much easier than with the 4-pot motor.
When I did my conversion I kept it to vitually factory spec fitment wise, it makes life a lot simpler and all the conversion parts are available from Dave Vale at V8 conversions in Farnborough Kent.
including the gearbox mounting brackets to weld on to the crossmember so you can fit the LT77 Rover gear box.
His Tel. no. is 01689 858716 and he was part of the team at Costelloe who invented the MGBV8, he's also very competitive on prices and very helpful with advice.
|Looks Good Mike,|
yours might turn out a bit better than mine. I've often thought since that I should have come about a cm further forward and done the block/offset thing with the gear lever. Be careful about trimming the end of the pump nose, the pulley perches right on the end. 10mm is heaps, just put in a restraining bar to stop the engine moving about (or tearing the mount).
Some people put one up front somewhere, or use that engine block alignment projection ( temptingly near the the LHS crossmember bolts). I found that the old 1800 restraining bar (the one under the gearbox)fits neatly across the back of the engine and mounts onto the top corner of the foot well. Too easy to resist, and because it's long it doesn't transmits minimal vibration.
You can see it under the EFI cable, running across to the RHS head.
|Oh and yeah, much easier, except of course, for the RHS engine mount nut.|
|Peter, I can't quite figure out what holds the pulley mount onto the water pump shaft. Do I need a nut on the nose of the pump to hold it tight?|
I've got an engine steady bar that fixes sideways between the front of the LH cylinder head and the inner wing - or do you mean a steady that operates fore and aft? Neither of my old 1800s had any restraining bars.
As for engine mounting nuts, I haven't put them in yet as the engine has to come out again for overhaul. I shall remove the rack and pinion shaft to gain access when I do it for real.
Thanks for all your help - much appreciated.
|Should have said mine is a 1975 car so it was literall a bolt in apart from the tunnel mod for the LT77 gearbox.|
|Every new MGB V8 on the road makes the world a better place is my motto.|
Love the colour Kevin, and the stainless mesh looks the part. The last is on my to do list.
Mike, my 1800 75 had a restraining bar under the gear box (now located back of engine). It ran from the front of the gear box to the thick square rubber bushings (you can see them in the pic') on the cross member. I'm not actually too sure what it was meant to do, perhaps support the gear box when the engine was out, who knows. It does however make a very nice V8 steady bar, all nicely tapered, finished bushed and everything. It is quite possible to rip the LHS rubber mount without one, our rover motors put out a whole lot more power than the original V8's ever did and I've seen a couple of cars do this.
My steady bar is on a slight forward angle and holds the engine back, if necessary. Mostly it stops the engine tearing the LHS mount. On a day to day basis, it also stops the exhaust clattering loudly on the gearbox crossmenber under strong acceleration. And not the very least, there is s certain coolness factor when you rev' the engine the whole car rocks to the right (childish I know :) ). However there is little movement in the engine mount anyway, certainly not a whole cm. Not going to happen.
As far as I can gather the pulley base (that you use three bolts to attach the pulley to) is pressed onto the water pump shaft. If the shaft was machined a bit further, I'm sure your could press it a bit more, hence the RV8 pump. It seems like that it is only the end half inch (or less) that supports everything. I've no idea what the thread does,it's on mine as well. Perhaps its there to help pull the pulley off the shaft.
|I should add, you can get the engine in without taking out the steering. What you do is , start the nut on the body bracket side of the rubber mount, attach the engine bracket to the mount. Put the motor most of the way in, then bolt the engine bracket to the engine. Actually it might be easier to unbolt he steering rack!|
Can I recommend to just about anyone, buy a set of ratchet ring spanners. Not the cheap ones, really good kingchrome spanners. They are expensive ($150 a set), and it took me about two years to work up to buying them, but worth it. It makes the hardest job so quick and easy. ie the rear exhaust bolts and the steering uv bolt.. and a host of others.
what did you do to the gear stick to align it if you kept the standard mountings?
Also has anyone any idea's how to get the bottom pulley bolt out as i have tried everything - impact windy gear and good old fashioned socket and hammer and I can't get it to move. It's not LH thread is it?
The gear lever comes out just about in the right place with the normal full length remote from the SD1.
I found that the standard rubber gaiter can restrict full engagement of fourth gear and it will slip out of gear, so removed the rubber from inside the cover and no further problems, phew rhought it was the gearbox!
Did not have any problems with the bolt on the crank pulley, I would try soaking it with a good penetrating oil (not WD40 which is not a penetrating fluid) I'm currently using the Halford product that works very well, anyway give it a good apray and leave it for a day or so and try the impact gun, it should come straight off. It's a while since we did mine so can't be certain but think it was a standard thread.
Here is a picture of my car with the standard set up comprising SD1 front cover P6 water pump, modded SD1 crank pulley to P6 spec and the P6 alternator bracket.
|I used a socket with a big 3/4" attachment/handle and a length of pipe.|
Are those the new real steel heads?
No not the unobtainable Real Steel Merlin heads, I just got most of my engine upgrade parts from them and I got a local machine shop to do the Stage 1 head mods basically to Peter Burgess Econotune spec which he states as + 35BHP using standard SD1 size valves on a 3.5. The new engine has Buick 300 heads with Big valves and much larger ports.
|I got my crankshaft bolt out with an air powered impact wrench - no trouble at all. No its not a left hand thread.|
Peter, the screw thread on the water pump nose is there to attach the engine-driven fan on the Range Rover.
Kevin, I too love the colour of your car. I've got the stainless mesh grille for mine as well. It looks great doesn't it. I am intending to go to Peter Burgess for Econotune heads. He did such a brilliant job on my old 4-pot motor, that I shall go back to him.
This thread was discussed between 06/09/2008 and 14/09/2008
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