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MG MGB Technical - Difficult first start..fires up rest of day!?

Hi all,

I've only had my 66'B for about 2 months so excuse my lack of technical terms...LOL. Anyway, within the past 2 weeks the car has become increasingly more difficult to start for the first time. After the first start it fires right up for the rest of the day.

The car is stored in a garage and I drive it almost daily, although not for a very long distance drive. At first it would usually take about 1 or 2 tries to start...more recently it takes about 6 attempts before it starts. Once started it runs just fine, and like I said it starts great for the rest of the day. I suspect the starter is heading down the toilet because on some of the starting attempts the car will try to fire up and then make this hard sounding metallic noise. It does not do that all the time, just occasionally.

Very strange and I'm not sure where to begin to look.
thanks,
Randy
RC Chapman

RC next time you start the car turn the key on and count to 20 before you turn the key to start.It may be that your carbs are empty and the extra time is needed for them to fill.RIC
R E L Lloyd

Do you use the choke to start the car? After sitting overnight the engine may be cool enough to require the choke for startup. Whereas the heat retained during your normal day is often enough to allow starting with out the choke. Also as REL said make sure your carbs have fuel. If you have the factory fuel pump, turn the key on and wait until it pump stops ticking. If there's an aftermarket pump installed they usually tick all the time so just wait as REL suggests. Thats a sign the fuel bowls are full. Then try cranking the engine. If all these things fail, it may be time for a tune up. Do you hear the metallic noise from the starter on every start or only when the engine is being stubborn? I think if you can get your car to start easily you'll find that the starter will last for years.
Bill Boorse

Hi guys,

thanks for the suggestions. The factory fuel pump is still in. After it has been sitting overnight, I can hear the ticking sound begin and stop..so I know that is working just fine. I only hear the metallic sound occasionally...and I do hear it occasionally when the car fires up just fine. I'm not really sure what to make of it.

The car runs just great once it starts...it's just that first start. For example, this morning it took 6 attempts to start...but then it ran great. After that I had to restart it 3 more times before I made it home. On 2 of the 3 restarts it started right up, first attemp. On the one restart that it did'nt fire right up it fired up on the second attempt. It ran great as usual the whole morning. It's not that big of a deal, but just a bit annoying.

thanks,

Randy
RC Chapman

Two things you should check are the choke adjustment on the carbs and check that yuo don't have a fuel leak at carbs. When I got mine the fuel pump would run longer when cold than when hot. I found that one of the jets was leaking out of the bottom of the carb. The jet is connected to the float bowl by a small wire covered tube. These tend to crack when old and leak fuel out of the float onto the heat shead. Not a good thing when the motor is hot. The choke is easy to adjust. Just make sure that both sides are engaging at the same time.

Jim
Jim Lema

Hi Randy.

Does the engine turn over briskly during your difficult starts?.

If it doesn't, it could simply be that the battery is getting tired.

Don
Don

RC when you say it takes multiple attempts to get it started , how long is each attempt? Will the starter kick out, or will it just keep cranking until you release the key switch? It could be a starter/flywheel problem, as most Bs won't start like your FI Honda and need a lot more cranking when cold. RIC
R E L Lloyd

Hi RC,

1. I had exactly the symptoms you describe on the later Z-S carb with the automatic choke until I replaced it with a manual. So I suspect strongly the choke, just as the others have said. In your case, it is probably a manual choke already, BUT does the choke cable operate the lever at the carb, or is it just slipping? (Maybe the little mechanism that grips the "inner" cable" is slipping at the carb instead of push/pulling the choke lever itself?)

2. The metallic sound may be more serious. If the ring gear on the engine is shot, have to pull the engine I'm pretty sure and fit an expensive part. Before that, maybe check that the starter is tightly bolted and not loose and thus canted at an angle making the meshing with the ring gear out of line. If it is tight, pull the starter anyway, and look at the starter's pinion(?) gears at the end for wear, and also see if you can examine the engine ring gear with a flashlight for wear or missing teeth?

Not at all sure about the noise, but I am pretty condident that choke will at least solve the starting problem.

Good luck with it anyway, and let us know what transpires.

Daryl
Daryl

Hi all,

thanks for your suggestions...I believe one of the problems has been solved..it seems the choke cable needed a little adjusting...I think it must have been slipping when I pulled it out. I disconnected the cable where it connects at the carbs and pulled it a bit tighter and reconnected it. It now seems I'm able to pull the choke out further than before. This morning it started right up!!

Now, as far as the noise...I have no idea what could be causing it. As I said before, it sometimes makes the noise immediatel when I try and start it..sometimes it never makes the noise, and somtimes it makes the noise and starts. It also sometimes starts without making the noise!! hehe.

Daryl, I would'nt have the foggiest as to even begin looking for the starters pinion!! LOL I have alot to learn!! I have'nt even been able to jack it up and get under it yet!! I just acquired some jackstands today...sometime this week I'll try and look. Any ideas where I can learn more about what you have suggested/?

thanks again all,

Randy
RC Chapman

MG starters use a Bendix gear for engagement with the flywheel and they are noted for hanging up either engaged, retracted, or half way in between. Usually if the Bendix mechanism is thoroughly cleaned and lightly lubricated the starter will function well for a long time. MGs will also tend to wear down teeth on the ring gear because the engine has a tendency to stop in the same position when shut off. If you do have worn teeth you can usually get the starter to engage by rocking the car while in gear to "bump" the engine over a few degrees therefore bringing good teeth in line with the starter and then starting it.
Bill Boorse

RC,

I did not mean to bamboozle. The starter motor shaft has a small gear wheel attached at the end which sticks into the engine. It meshes with a very large circumferential (ring) gear attached to the engine flywheel, which is itself attached to the main engine shaft. So when the starter is operated, it turns the ring gear and in turn the engine.

As Bill Bourse says, the starter's gear is not meshed with the ring gear before and after the engine is running. It is made to engage the ring gear only when the starter operates.

The possibilities here seem to me to be as follows, and you will need to jack the car to explore them. First disconnect the battery:

1. If the starter's two attachment bolts to the engine are loose, the meshing may be all cocked up. (DIY?)

2. Either of the two gear wheels (starter or engine) may be worn. (DIY with help - see later?)

3. The starter gear may be failing to engage properly to start, or retract properly after starting. (You could take the starter or the whole car to an auto-electrical shop. Your problem is intermittent, and may not replicate easily. Make sure they know that.)

What you want to eliminate first (to save money) are:

Item 1.
Item 3.
The starter part of Item 2.
Only as a last resort work on the ring gear. One would need to view it through the hole that the starter came out for really worn or missing teeth; for this check, you will want the car to be out of gear, and you will need to turn it from the front with a large socket wrench, a few degrees at a time while examining the ring gear thru its whole circumference. I.e., if you do it by yourself, you will need to make a gazillion round trips from the front to the back of the engine. If the ring gear is worn, you'll need to pull the engine and replace it, the hard part being to pull the engine.

The advice to rock the car in gear before starting IF the starter did not want to turn the engine is always good advice in that situation. This is easiest done in fourth gear, and it needs a significant push forward or back with ignition off. People have gotten a lot of miles out of a "broken-down" car with tricks like this. You can also push start it.

You have probably figured this all out by now yourself and with the comments above. But don't tule out that we are all barking up the wrong tree. I know someone who took their car to the dealer with a noise symptom. Many dollars later, he learned it was his son's toy car rolling around under his seat.
Daryl

Hi guys,

thanks for all the help!!! Now that the choke problem appears to be solved I'm gonna drive it a couple of days and see how it behaves. Tuesday or Wednesday I'll get under her and see what I can see. This is my last real week off for the summer, I'm a teacher ;), so my time is running short.

thanks again,

Randy
RC Chapman

Why did you leave the important stuff 'til last? If we'd just known you were a teacher, we would have been a lot kinder! Good luck in the pressure cooker.
Daryl

Ah, fond memories as I look over R.C's problem and questions and kudos for the many good responses. That old choke and choke adjustment is critical to a good quick start. I own a 66 B which used to do the same things you speak of, including the starter conversation on cranking. The advice on the Bendix and ring gear wear is right on the mark. My choke requires a full pull out at start after the fuel pump quits its " cluk, clunk, clunk. If its real cold, on initial start, I pop the bonnet and get a little more rise on the lever. Starts right up ( one of these days I'll get with it and adjust it so I don't.have to get out and get "that little extra")

Getting that starter out to clean and lube is no easy task. Not hard but requires removal of the oil filter and distributor. Then back in and hope you marked the distributor location well. But thats the fun of it and the sunny Saturday drive to the car show. Don't know why, but love the car, especially now when its dependable for these cruises. From the sound of it, (your starter noise) don't think it will require a new ring gear yet.

Good luck

Jim Hanks

Just a hint when trying to get the rubber boot back on after refitting the starter. They are a pig! Best thing I know is to fill it full of boiling water for about 20 seconds. Tip it out, dry it with a rag then push it on quickly taking care not to disturb the wires going to the starter solenoid.
Good luck
Thommo

This thread was discussed between 08/08/2003 and 14/08/2003

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