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MG MGB Technical - Endfloat cock-up

How and where do I measure endfloat for the front wheel bearings? My method so far has been to attach a magentic base stand and dial test indicator to the brake disc, with the tip of the DTI against the centre of the axle shaft. Pushing the disc back and forth in line with the axle gives me 0.0025" of movement. I thought it was a pukka job.


Then I put the wheel on and can rock it and find movement visibly and audibly top to bottom. Pressing the brakes stops the movement, which I think means the bearings are at fault, so I am guessing my setting procedure is well and truly flawed. Should I be measuring the endfloat at the top of the wheel?

Thanks,

Steve
Steve Postins

Steve,

Per the Bentley manual your end float is right on....002 to .004". There should be some barely discernable movement as you attempt to move the wheel. I think your technique is correct.

Cheers, Doug
Doug Keene

In and out is the correct measurement, so can be measured anywhere. Rocking gives a bigger movement the further from the centre it is taken, of course. This means that correct end-float gives more apparent movement when rocking a wheel mounted on the hub than simply moving the hub in and out when taking measurements. In practical terms you have the correct end-float if you can reduce it .003 and there is still just perceptable play, but reducing it by a further .001 (by juggling shims) there is none.
Paul Hunt

At the moment I get a "clonk clonk" and can clearly see movement as I push the tyre at the top of the wheel once it's all srewed up tight and back on the ground. Is that sort of play right? It's more than I would describe as "barely discernable" but I guess that's the magnification. I don't have any discernable movement on the other front wheel or those of my Roadster and it bothers me to see anything apparently wobbly!

The added complication is that I didn't order spare shims to do the job (I chanced that the new bearings would be the same width as the old) so I'm having to thin the existing ones with emery paper on glass and I don't want to take them back too far. Don't you love doing things the hard way?

Thanks,

Steve
Steve Postins

Steve - Did you set the end play before or after you packed the bearings? I find that it is more accruate to do it before greasing the bearings as the grease can sometimes interfere with the in and out movement of the hub and cause false readings if one is not very careful (or experienced at doing it, which I am not). I also start by torquing the hub nut down quite tightly without the shims in place initially to make sure everything is seated properly, expecially if the bearing have already been packed with grease, then remove the nut and outer bearing and replace the shims and then start measuring the end play and adjusting the shims. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

I packed the bearing first, but I did tighten down without the shims. Having been out to the car just now the movement is not as marked as I first feared, so I think it's just a case of taking the endfloat down a fraction more to make good.
Steve Postins

I still say Timken type tapered bearings are not made to be run with play in them. It results in point to point contact and causes localized overloads in the race and can cause early failure. This type bearing is designed for a slight amount of preload, which gives even load distribution and proper bearing life. But we've had this discussion before.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

I just finished annual service on the front wheel bearings in my son's Legends race car. It uses Toyota Celica front hubs. What does this have to do with MGB wheel bearings? The bearings from the Toyota Celica are LM67048 and LM11949. They are identical to MGB front hub bearings, Toyota didn't use spacers and shims for bearing adjustment. FWIW, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

In the B's axle the diff pinion bearings are preloaded but supported by a collapsible spacer. In the stub axles they are not preloaded and are rigidly supported by the spacer and shims.

The spacer and shims add to the rigidity and strength of the stub axle which is subjected to suspension loads and shocks - I, for one, am not inclined to dispense with them! Just because other motor manufacturers designed their axles to work with floating or preloaded bearings should not influence the MGB application.

In pure engineering terms, the spacer & shims provides positive location of the inner races and the hub provides positive location of the outer races - a very safe and predictable setup.

Setting the endfloat dry should result in almost undetectable movement once greased.
Some MOT testers expect no movement whatsoever until you wave the workshop manual under their noses!
Chris at Octarine Services

As well they should. Also last time around we discovered that it appears quite likely that the clearance spec was a carryover from the MGA ball bearing spindles. Ball bearings wear rapidly when preload is applied, therefore clearance is necessary, and it was instructive to see that the clearance spec for the ball bearing spindles was identical to the spec for the later design. Incidentally, the early 70's Ford Mustang Mach I which weighed in at 3500 lbs+ uses the exact same bearings as the MGB and uses the exact same spindle dimensions except that it is about 1/4" longer. I do not think you need to suppliment the rigidity of that part.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

I gotta stand by Clifton. I don't, and never did, use spacers and shims. Just my way and it has worked just fine for many years. I have a friend who owns an import repair service and has done more MGB wheel bearings than most of us put together (I said most, Chris) and he has always tossed the spacers and shims. Again, JMHO and not a statement of advocacy.
David
David

Jim,

Where do you get clearance specs for ball bearing MGA hubs from? According to my workshop manual the ball bearings were just tightened up against their spacer - no shims, no end float to set.

The 1600 fitted with Dunlop disc brakes does have an end float, but then it has taper bearings too - not ball bearings.

Also, if I am not mistaken, the diff cage bearings are ball bearings and they are preloaded! You just cannot generalise - some ball bearings are designed for axial load.

Perhaps the MG engineers were over cautious and the spacers and shims can be dispensed with - but I would not advocate it on the basis that should an axle fail (and there are current threads about cracks in stub axles) and cause an accident then whoever advised the omission of the spacers and shims ( or the mechanic who just "tossed" them) would be up for litigation!

I certainly would NEVER omit to correctly reinstall and reset the spacer and shims and anyone who says they should run with a preload is probably responsible for the bright blue races I have had to replace!
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris, I'm sure you would always set the end float correctly. I disassembled a front axle I bought for spares and it had one blue race in it even though the shims and spacer were in the hub. The shim stack was too thin and of course the bearing had lots of preload. Regardless of which method is used the bearings have to be adjusted correctly. My post was not intended to suggest that anyone change what they are doing, however I did imply that since the Toyota Celica uses the same bearings the MG uses it shouldn't make a difference. I admire and respect you for going by the book. I choose to not use the spacers and shims and it's a personal decision, however I do not recommend or suggest anyone else do as I do. Cheers, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

Chris,
I got it from someone on this board who went and checked the book last time we had this discussion so I do not personally know the specifics. Perhaps it was a TD or TF, but apparently if you go back far enough there were MG's with ball bearings on the spindles. But I'm not going to argue about this, even though we could beat each other to a standstill. It was quite clear from prior discussions that neither camp would give ground to the other and I do not expect to see a change in that. HOWEVER, I also feel it is improper for one (not saying you specifically) to dispense information in an authoritarian manner, stating a thing should be done one way and only one way, when there is clearly an alternative and equally accepted way of doing it. At a minimum a nod to the other camp is in order.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

Well, as an innocent bystander I have to say the points seem well, if vigorously, made on all sides. Like most people using the board I hugely appreciate all the advice given, particularly when it comes to a safety critical items.

With that in mind, I've struggled to set the bearing the orthodox way. I was surprised to find about 50 thou of shims in the hub. I've taken about 6 thou out and now have just an NC of movement if I rock the top of the tyre when the car's on the ground so I think that must be about right.

Thanks everyone for the advice and info.

Steve
Steve Postins

Unless you use the spacer and shims and tighten the nut up to them the inners can spin on the stub axle. I have heard of this happening and people have ended up with them 'welded'. Surely the authoritative information is what is contained in the factory manual, anyone saying anything else should indicate it is a departure from that and give a health warning. Which Celica are you referring to? My 85 has a single bearing with a solid outer race, a double row of ball-bearings and a split inner race. No spacer, no shims, and the hub nut is tightened to 139 ft-lb! I have had other FWD cars with similar pressure on the front hub nuts.
Paul Hunt

Yikes, so I guess I can't just torgue her down and back off a quarter! Thank god I ordered a pile of shims from Moss. Sounds like a 1/2 day to set bearings here. For one I appreciate the debate and am looking forward to some play with the dial indicator. Now was that 25 thou dry? and 40-70 # torgue?
vem myers

Yes you see, that's all so complicated. Clean and dry the bearings, assemble, torque, test, disassemble, reassemble, torque, test, disassemble, reassemble, torque, test, disassemble, pack bearings, reassemble, torque, test. On average probably a good half day's work for the average owner, when all that's really needed is to toss the shims and spacer, pack the bearings, assemble, spin the tire and snug down the nut, back it off a bit, and finish it up. With millions and possibly billions of cars on the planet using this method with identical bearings and near identical components, many weighing 150-200% what this car weighs all with no safety warning it could not be clearer that none need be given. But of course that's not by the book. Nevermind that the book doesn't use the method recommended by the bearing manufacturer. But then again, I'm not a purist ;-)

At any rate, if you *must* run shims then by all means do so, but at least set your clearance at zero or a slight preload like Timken and all other tapered bearing manufacturers recommend. The bearings will last longer and there will be less play in the wheels. Just don't put so much crush on the bearings that you create drag.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

Yes Vem, those are the right figures and in particular the "dry" comment is important as I now know. It's not as quick as Jim's method but not so slow either if, unlike me, you can follow instructions. Swapping the shims in and out takes a few seconds, likewise the bearings, as all you are doing is unscrewing the hub nut each time to get at them. With the DTI you will very quickly discern which shims to use, or you can use the method very well described on Paul Hunts site.
Steve Postins

Health warning from the Timken website:

DO I NEED TO TORQUE THE AXLE NUT AND/OR THE LUG NUT?

Yes, it is imperative that you follow the manufacturer’s specifications and/or instruction
manual to assure the hub is installed correctly. Failure to follow the manufacturer’s
installation instructions and follow the proper installation procedures can cause equipment
failure, creating a risk of serious bodily harm.
Chris at Octarine Services

Also from the Timken website there is:
http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/PDFs/Vol6No3.pdf

Geoff
Geoff King

Thanks Geoff - I was looking for that bit of advice - I knew it was somwhere on the site.

The issue here is the "controlled light preload" - leaving the spacers out and nipping up the nut is certainly not controlled, there is nothing to stop dirt or metal swarf getting between the outer bearing and the washer / nut and increasing the preload to failure levels.
Chris at Octarine Services

In a response to a query to Timken over the omission of the spacer they say -

"We are not in a position to approve this approach, sorry."
Chris at Octarine Services

In a response to a query to Timken over the omission of the spacer they say -

"We are not in a position to approve this approach, sorry."


No bearing manufacturer is going to approve of any deviation from the auto makers procedures whether it is safe to deviate or not.
David

Chris,

Re: "Failure to follow the manufacturer’s
installation instructions..." Is that the manufacturer of the car, or the manufacturer of the bearing?

Matt Kulka

You have to bear in mind that Timken is very averse to litigation and have very very carefully crafted their website to avoid leaving any openings for possible lawsuits. Of course they will recommend you follow the manufacturer's recommendations as a default because it transfers the legal risk to the manufacturer. Likewise they will recommend "controlled light preload" using a positive means, and a great many industrial spindles are configured in this way (though not all, by any means), as are all axle differentials, and MGB front spindles. However, I do not see anywhere a recommendation for bearing clearance. I see a recommendation for light preload, and I see a caution against excessive preload, and I see a statement that light preload will extend bearing life. All of which are in perfect agreement with what I have stated before. The remaining issue is whether the spacers are in fact necessary at all and I maintain that an overwhelming body of experience clearly demonstrates that they are not. In theory they are a good idea. In practice it makes little difference if they are there or not. If the installer knows how to properly install the bearings, either method will produce the same results. If not, either method will produce erratic and unpredictable results, whether those results are caused by "swarf", overtightening, or looseness, none of which should be present in the properly installed bearing using either method. Rather analogous to the belt, suspenders, or both question, if you feel the need for an excess of caution then by all means go ahead and use the shims. But don't try to tell me they are an essential necessity because there's just too much evidence that they are not.

Incidentally, using only the nut and cotter to make preload adjustment, increments would be on the order of about .003-.004". (I do not have a spindle in front of me to check the thread pitch) Admittedly finer adjustments can be made by the use of shims and this does give more positive control, but Timken's graph does not have inch increments included so we have no reference for the range of adjustment. However experience indicates that a preload range of +/- one flat of the nut is usually acceptable and with two cotter holes increments are 1/2 flat. So there is a reasonable target and it is well within the ability of the average mechanic to learn to hit the sweet spot in that target within a couple thousandths practically every time.

Jim

Jim Blackwood

Jim,

I am not saying that the spacers are essential - clearly they are not - many parts of the MGB are not essential!

All I do say is that without them there is an increased risk of catastrophic failure.

The Timken site clearly states that the measurement of endfloat is possible - the measurement of preload is not.

Amongst their tech tips they say that - whilst slight preload will give longer bearing life, endfloat of 2 thou will still give a bearing life of 500,000 miles and 15 thou reduces bearing life to 50,000 miles.

Now I for one would be happy with a life of 500,000 miles and any benefits of chancing a longer life with some preload just is not a gamble I would take.

MG saw fit to set our hubs up with a properly engineered system and has told us how to adjust and maintain them.

Leave bits out and set them up your own way if you think your way is safe - I just pray a hub never fails on your car and kills either you or an innocent bystander.

Enough said.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,
We may as well stop at this point. Clearly your opinion will remain unchanged. Equally clearly you will not convince me that the system used by me and on millions of other cars is any less safe than that used by the MG factory. I think I stated as much. I have also stated in the past that the bearings used on the MG are demonstrably stouter than rquired for the job at hand and will do an admirable job of tolerating excessive slop while still giving a more than adequate lifespan for most owners. So this is perhaps an even more minor point than you realize. But as for being unable to accurately measure preload, I beg to differ. If this was so then the Timken graph would clearly be a crock as it could not exist without some manner of measuring preload. What you are talking about is a matter of degree only, and what Timken can accurately measure with highly precise instruments, an experienced mechanic can approximate to acceptable standards, as has been proven the world over for well over half a century. Preload values are given in thousandths of an inch, in torque measurements of shaft rotation, and if you really want to get technical about it, it can be measured in terms of race deflection, as any bearing engineer is well aware, since the contact pattern of the rollers is a well documented and highly controlled parameter of bearing design and is intimately related to preload pressure. Bear in mind that any material, even the hardest steel, is plastic in nature and will deflect under load to a greater or lesser degree. Bearings are no different, and the design of the tapered bearing takes this into account. It is engineered to deflect slightly under the pressure of the design preload to give even contact across the face of the roller, and this is precisely the reason why the bearing life graph spikes upwards at the correct preload figure. (the "sweet spot" mentioned earlier) You can test this for yourself if you like. Take a relatively large (new)tapered bearing and race, clean and dry it, put it together and rotate the parts with very light finger pressure, paying close attention to how evenly and smoothly it rotates. Then place it between your palms and apply preload and do the same thing and you will find it turns more smoothly. If you have a bit of Prussian Blue about or some compound for checking gear contact patterns you can verify that with no preload the rollers are only contacting one edge of the race. The main reason it is done this way is because the design of the bearing requires the race to be thinner on one edge than the other, and if it was designed for full contact at no preload then when placed under load the race would deflect unevenly as minute compressions occurred between the race and housing with the result being uneven bearing wear and a greatly decreased lifespan. This feature of bearing design is what predominately causes the indeterminate nature of preload measurements, as it causes a "soft" contact point where the rollers initially contact the race and as the race begins to deflect under pressure. Sort of like the ride height of your car being dependent on how much air is in the tires. But you do manage to get the air pressure right, and likewise an experienced mechanic manages to get the preload right, over and over, with gratifying accuracy and repeatability.

Sorry to get so technical about this, hopefully some will appreciate these intricacies. But as you can see it is an area that I have investigated rather thoroughly and am quite convinced that my understanding of it is at least the equal of the factory designers who recommended end float in their wheel bearings.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

"According to the National Transportation
Safety Board, the incidence of wheel separations
is about 750 to 1,050 per year. The Safety
Board identified improper wheel maintenance
as a potential cause. Most often cited were
inadequate in-service inspection guidelines and
failure to adhere to recommended maintenance
practices."
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris; I read that on the Timkin web site, I'm surprised, the numbers are lower than I expected. We have millions of trucks and multi wheel trailers on our roads. You have your MOT tests but we have no uniform vehicle inspection system in the US. North Carolina has an inspection requirement, it costs $9.30 unless you are in a county that has emission tail pipe checks. The state gets part of the fee so the inspection is usually a joke. I've been in NC 29 years and have had probably 100 inspections done and I can recall only one time that the front of my vehicle was jacked up and the suspension and wheel bearings were checked. It takes 10 minutes to fill out the forms, so the $8 or $8 the shop gets, the motovation is to get the car out. Many states do not have any inspection requirements. Many car owners here in the US run their cars until something breaks before they think about repairs or maintenance. They either don't have the money to do their maintenance or they don't understand their cars. I could go on, but you can see why I'm surprised the numbers are low. Cheers, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

In view of what you say, perhaps they aren't that low - just the reported ones!
Chris at Octarine Services

I quite agree. But this is not an indication of improper adjustment as much as an indication of no maintenance at all. If the adjustment was as impossible to make correctly as claimed, the incidence would be considerably greater.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

Just for info - and another line of thought - I got the following e-mail from Roger Parker at the MGOC.


From: Roger Parker [mailto:rogerp@mgownersclub.co.uk]
Sent: 10 November 2003 11:43
To: chris.betson@btinternet.com
Cc: Jonathan Kimber
Subject: Re: Bulletin board thread on front wheel bearing adjustment


Hi Chris,

I can't see that thread as it has been archived although I was asked a few
weeks ago about this. My preference would be to follow the OE instructions
even though I know of cars that have operated without the spacer for years
even in racing circles without problems.

Generally my concerns would revolve around the casting of the hub and the
security of the inner race. The standard set up is very similar to say the
Rover SD1 which was being made during the same period and also came from the
same design ethics. The difference with the castings is that where the
Rover is intended to have the floating bearings the casting control and
dimension into where the outer race of the outer bearing sits seems to carry
more material and accordingly be more rigid and less able to distort under
load.

The main issue though would seem to relate to the inner race and the way in
which in standard form this is designed to be fixed against the spacer and
thus become rigidly held. This then ensures that irrespective of the degree
of interference fit between the inside of the inner race and the stub axle
there is no possibility of the inner race spinning instead of the bearings
against the race. Free float fitting will allow the inner race to
eventually create wear between it and the stub axle.

Rog
**********************************************************************
Roger Parker - Technical Resources
MG Owners' Club, 'Octagon House', 1 Over Road, Swavesey,
Cambridge, CB4 5QZ. United Kingdom.
Tel: 01954 231125. Fax: 01954 232106.
Email: RogerP@mgownersclub.co.uk
www site: http://www.mgownersclub.co.uk
**********************************************************************
Chris at Octarine Services

You know, I'd be more concerned about the outer bearing inner race turning than the inner bearing inner race as this seems to say. It's smaller and therefore has less wear surface, and the spindle itself is of a smaller diameter. I have personally experienced a couple of catastrophic bearing failures. One way back when I was first learning to work on cars, and another about ten years ago on a 3-1/2 ton International 4x4. In both cases the bearing failed completely and disintegrated. The outer bearing inner race did indeed spin on the spindle, and welded itself to the spindle, and the rollers went everywhere. Either one *could* have resulted in loss of control but neither one did. I don't remember much about the first one except that the inner race had to be broken to remove it but the spindle was saved. It started making crunchy noises so that was a dead giveaway. On the truck, the bearing momentarily locked up the wheel on the freeway causing a strong pull on the steering wheel but but then resumed turning, but with a lot of accompanying noises. In both cases I was able to drive at reduced speed to a suitable repair location. The second failure was determined to be the cascaded result of a failed lockout hub. The first was caused by me, as I had changed the wheel bearings and didn't know what I was doing and dinged up the seat for the outer race, causing it to seat crooked. When repairing that, I wondered if there shouldn't be something to keep the inner races from turning. Seemed logical to think they would spin on the spindle and wear. Over the years I've set a lot of bearings though, and the only times I've seen spindle wear it has been the result of bad bearings. Looking back the thing that makes the most sense is that the bearing itself, if in good repair, is going to be the lowest friction interface of the assembly, and so is going to be the most likely to turn. But one other factor comes into play, and that is our old friend preload. If the bearings are properly installed, with light preload, the shoulder of the inner race is loaded to the side, either against the shoulder of the spindle or against the keyed washer under the nut. There is friction at this boundary, the amount being dependent on the amount of preload applied, and this will and does resist the rotational force applied by the wheel and hub. So here is the other shoe dropping. Not only does the slight preload increase bearing life tenfold, but it keeps the inner races from turning as well. (Note that some very minor rotation may occur, but this probably has beneficial results by spreading rust inhibitors.) Without the preload of course, one would expect the races to spin on the spindle and cause wear, but not being a proponent of that method I cannot address that.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

I think Roger was referring to either inner race - I too would have thought that the races are unlikely to turn as the rollers should offer less resistance - but quite often I find that the gearbox input bearings outer race rotates in the case despite being a press fit - presumeably small pieces of dirt / swarf get into the bearings and cause torque to be transmitted to the races?

On the stub axles the outer bearing inner race is a loose fit on the axle and will be prone to rotation unless as Jim says the bearings are under preload and even then there is no guarantee that the inner race will not turn.

Unless the mechanic is confident that they can set up a sufficient preload to stop the race turning within the "light preload" limit for the bearing, it is safer to use the factory recommended endfloat setting........
Chris at Octarine Services

Could you imagine how much it would cost to attend all of the training sessions it would take to learn what we learn on this site! I for one appreciate all of this litigation, it is very educational and helpful for everyone that work or own one of these jewels. I have restored one for myself, am restoring one for a local lawyer, and have one sitting in the background waiting for my 14 YOA son. 80% of my knowledge comes from this site, the other 20% I suppose is common sense. What I am trying to say is that you folks should never take for granted how much you help other people.
THANKS
Steve C.
Steve C.

I think that in the case of the transmission input the culprit may be a very slight misalignment, causing the shaft to wobble just a bit and setting up a vibration in the bearing that eventually wears the case enough to let the bearing turn. I would have thought that a .010" misalignment in a bellhousing would be excessive, but learned that it is in fact fairly common. And as many parts as there are in a clutch and pressure plate it seems holding close tolerances would be difficult as well. Of course, junk in the bearing can lock it up totally and something has to give, as in the case of the truck. At a time like that having the inner race turn may not be a bad thing. Oh, btw it occurred to me that in addition to the preload, the weight of the vehicle is forcing the bearings out as well.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

You guys are both great! You've held a very good discussion on this matter and dispite differing opinions, you have not allowed it to degenerate into any pettiness or name-calling.

The discourse has been excellent and I echo what others have said by saying thanks to you two for sharing your knowledge and giving us a well thoughtout debate.

Robert
Robert Rushing

Jim,

That is an interesting point about the vehicle weight pushing the bearings outwards, effectively adding to the preload.

I am not convinced that the races and rollers deflect as much as you suggest, but if they do then would this not add to the preload and possibly even convert endfloat into preload?

Alternatively if the axle stretches under this load then this may negate the effect of the above and the preload would reduce.

The situation is similar to the head studs clamping the cylinder head or any other fastener which is torqued up. The stretch load induced in the fastening "absorbs" the stretching of the applied load until the applied load exceeds the load in the fastening - then the fastening stretches more leaving the clamped object loose.

In the stub axle the load in the axle when torqued up to a spacer will resist any stretch of the axle - maintaining the preload / endfloat at a constant since the inner races will not move relative to each other, whereas if the spacer is missing then the preload / endfloat may vary.

Perhaps where this is leading is that it is actually better to apply slight preload under the control of the spacer if preload is the way you want to go to extend bearing life.


Robert,

At the end of the day neither Jim or I have any stake in this other than to understand the mechanics of our cars and take reasoned judgements about how we set them up for optimum performance. Exploring different views is always the best way of increasing our understanding.

Name calling is for the playground!
Chris at Octarine Services

Another thought - if the veicle weight does force the bearings outwards then it only acts on the top of the inner races, which if free on the shaft are also free to tilt and induce uneven loading and wear - preload at the top and endfloat at the bottom of the races???????
Chris at Octarine Services

This thread was discussed between 02/11/2003 and 12/11/2003

MG MGB Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB Technical BBS is active now.