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MG MGB Technical - Engine oil

Hi All.
What engine oil would people recommend for my slightly tuned 1860cc B engine.
Thanks
s page

A question that will probably elicit nearly as many answers as there are oils.

You need one relatively high in ZDDP or you can get excessive wear on the cam and followers. 20W/50 intended for 'older' and 'classic' engines has more than modern formulations, a bit of research through Google should throw up specs from a number of manufacturers. This http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/enginetext.htm#oils may help ... or maybe not!
paulh4

Brilliant Paul - put my mind at rest. The Morris Golden film I'm using is API SF/CC rated, so should contain ZDDP
Paul Hollingworth

There's more to oil additives than just ZDDP but if you want full ZDDP in the formula and excellent hot and cold protection for (standard or) tuned engines there's Millers Classic Sport High Performance 20w50 (it's the one I use in my road, non-track midget, shop around for lower prices) - https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/classic-sport-high-performance-20w50-engine-oil

An alternative with full ZDDP if above is too rich for your blood - Millers Classic Sport 20w50 - https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/classic-sport-20w50-engine-oil

For those with lesser requirements or of a more reserved approach this is formulated with ZDDP - Millers Classic Pistoneeze 20w50 - https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/classic-pistoneeze-20w50-engine-oil

We'll avoid the debatable issue of how much ZDDP is sufficient (or necessary) and how much was used (or necessary) in 1960s formulas of additives packages and how these packages compare to modern packages.

Getting and keeping the engine and its oil in a good running temperature range would perhaps apply more to many classic car owners.
Nigel Atkins

until now ZDDP has been the holy grail. The properties of PTFE in reducing friction have been understood for sometime but it has until now not been available as an oil additive. Over the years there have been lots of claims for additives. Those who look at Faher.co.uk and follow up will be rewarded.

We have it in six engines - mixed in various oils - the effect has been remarkable particularly in the A and B series engines.
Roger Walker

It may already be obvious but just to make it clear, the additive packages I was referring to are those the companies have already included in the can of motor oil rather than those you yourself have buy separately and have to add to the engine (or g/box or rear axle).

As well as anti-wear you also want the oil and its additive package to provide good protection over a wide temperature range especially if you like to drive your classic over winter and/or hard or spirited driving during hot summers. This will also provide extended protection should engine running problems crop up, running over-hot, etc..

Classics that aren't driven often may be more of a candidate for extra protection than those used more regularly.
Nigel Atkins

nigel (or anyone else)

any idea what the actual difference is between the pistoneeze and their mini oil? it says the mini oil is designed for engine/gbox shared sump - but is still 20/50. i might have thought that it would be of higher spec, but it's quite a bit cheaper than pistoneeze.

roger
how do you feel you have been able to recognise the benefit of the faher additive (and which one(s)? )

G
Graham Moore

The Bicester classic oils website give the spec of commonly used oils

https://www.classic-oils.net/Oils-by-Application-and-Type/Four-Stroke-Engine-Oils/Classic-20W50-Multigrades-Mineral-base

Its says that the Morris's has 700 parts per million or 0.07% ZDDP, Castrol 800 ppm, but Duckhams and Pentrite 1300 ppm. Many others are around 1000 ppm.

I've now added half a bottle of STP to supplement the Morris ZDDP level
Paul Hollingworth

The Pistoneeze Mini 20w50, is actually quoted as a GL 4, which I think is a Gear oil designation, and "they" say it has EP levels of gear protection.
Might be worth a punt in B gearboxes?
Allan Reeling

Hi Graham,
using Paul's link and comparing Millers Pistoneeze products there are quite a few differences between the Mini and standard 20w-50, easiest to say the standard they're made to meet and FTCO's description of the Mini with "specifically developed to incorporate EP levels of gear protection for use in combined engine and gearbox applications, and for classic gearboxes calling for a 20W/50 engine oil such as some Land Rovers" and I'd guess B & Spridet g/boxes.

On Millers' site if you go on to the spec sheets you'll see the difference in figures too.

I've not seen where the Mini version of Pistoneeze is cheaper, in fact it's the standard 20w-50 that's cheaper on Millers' site.

If your doing 6 monthly oil changes it would work out more economical to buy a more expensive and better (proper) "fully synthetic" oil and doing a once a year change (all subject to the mileage of course). Low mileage usually means you need to change the oil sooner rather than later.

Do bear in mind "fully synthetic" is a marketing term and not a measurable quality. Some "fully synthetic" oils will be 100% and others might be much lower - same sort of thing as a chicken food product might be only a small percentage of actual chicken meat as most of us would understand the description but still called chicken whatever.

Also again don't get too hung up about ZDDP figures, it's not the only ingredient in the additive package but is a good marketing tool. I'm not sure the ZDDP levels in the oils used when the cars were new were as high as those now being offered (600 ZDDPs?) and the base oils and additive packages back then probably weren't as good as they are now, plus what number of ZDDP was/is required anyway(?).

On FTCO data (and I've not crossed checked the info there just taking it as it is) Castrol XL20w/50 is only 800 ZDDPs yet many owners would have happily used that oil for years/decades, I've used it and Halfords (Comma) on new to me cars and fresh built engines tens of thousands of miles later those engines seemed ok and put out respectable figures on the rollers.

Oils I've found are another item of belief and people are not usually diverted. 25+ years ago I was told if I used Mobil 1 in my classics the engines would fall apart, they didn't even if I did. :)
Nigel Atkins

https://www.classic-oils.net/Classic-Oils-Heritage-20W50 states it has 1300ppm of ZDDP.

GL4 IS a gear oil designation, and 20W/50 equates to 80W/90 viscosity-wise. V8 always specified gear oil for the gearbox AFAIK, it's perhaps very slightly 'stickier' in cold weather starts than the 20W/50 in the roadster, but I presume it gives better protection with the higher torque. Again AFAIK the original MGB recommendation was to use engine oil, but in April 1975 (presumably not 1st April ...) the attached Technical Services Bulletin says that SAE 90 supersedes (their word) it. I have read claims that this was later rescinded, but not seen any evidence.

People have their own pet fluids for everything, and arguments for using only that even it differs from the factory recommendation. At the end of the day, whatever works is the thing to use.



paulh4

Interesting Paul, do you know if the post '75 Driver's Handbooks and other publications carried the change?

Of course always debate on what should go in the gearboxes anyway (straight 30 or 40, 10w/40, 20w/50, EP oils, then GL4 - or look away - GL5).

I've always thought if you're using engine oil in the gearbox that it'd need more regular changing than if using a gear oil, factory workshop manual for (1800) b has 24 months or 24k-miles, whichever is sooner, for (engine) oil in gearbox.

1300 ZDDPs, that's an impressive number of ZDDPs but against it is that it's a more modern oil than some others, surely you need a classic oil for a classic car (I'm joking). The ale with the most hops in isn't always the best ale there's more to it than that (and I love hoppy ales). I'm sure that is a good oil but it could be bettered if you wanted or needed to.

Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
My original handbook shows info as per photo.
Cheers,
Charles


Charles9

I don't have anything between my 1973 roadster and Haynes dated 1981, 87 and 89. It would be interesting to hear from someone with a Drivers Handbook picturing an RB car. There were at least two versions for the UK with ostensibly the same green cover except the later version has '1979' in the upper right-hand corner as attached, the earlier without. Also two for the US one with the green cover again for 1979, plus another with an orange cover for 1975.

Don't forget Redline MT90 and ATF ...

Charles9 - date? Model?



paulh4

Charles, thanks for that.

Interesting too to me that it shows (Mobil Super) as 15W/50 and 10W/50, I used to use Mobil 1 (Motorsport) 15W/50 in my classic MGs (and other cars) all strictly road use only vehicles.

Paul,
Redline MT90 I threw in with the GL4s but good point I forgot about the very important ATF for manual boxes too.

The now USB sticks (formerly very clunky DVDs) has on the one for Bs DHs for '75on -

Driver's Handbook - MGB, MGB GT 1976 to 1980
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUF) USA 1975
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUF) CDN 1975
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUG) USA 1976
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUG) CDN 1976
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUH) USA 1977
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUH) CDN 1977
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUJ) USA 1978
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUJ) CDN 1978
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUL) USA 1979
Driver's Handbook - MGB (GHNUL) CDN 1979
Driver's Handbook - MGB NAS 1980
Driver's Handbook - MGB GT V8 1972 to 1976

Out of print now of course.

Nigel Atkins

Plenty on Amazon and eBay
paulh4

Rubber Bumper Handbook 1976


Andy Robinson

Lubrication recommendations from handbook.


Andy Robinson

!972 handbook lubrication. This book came with the car, but not a lot of good for a 1976 model.


Andy Robinson

Hi Paul / Andy
My handbook came with the car which i purchased new in 1980. I know the car must have been built no earlier than May of that year as the (still original hood has May stamped on it.The handbook has the following ref AKM 3661 (5TH Edition) on the inside.Front cover as per attached.
Cheers,
Charles


Charles9

What a joy to see so many images of the good book.

This all makes it definite to me, it's illegal and dangerous to use gear oil in the g/box not only would it damage the g/box it'd also cause the owner loss of hair, teeth and full sight


. . . or further loss. :)
Nigel Atkins

For the unwary Nigel jests, of course.

So the TSB is a bit of a mystery, maybe North America only for some reason. If the 'GAJ-3/19/75' at the bottom is a date then that IS the usual American format of month/day/year.

paulh4

Yes I was joking, oil is a subject that brings up beliefs and opinions (mine included) which can be, or become, entrenched, a bit like the way some support the sport, some are a tribal supporter of a team, some support an individual as they move around.

Also bear in mind how much oils have changed and/or improved from '50s to '70s and from '70s to recent years.

There seems to be support to the fact that at least USA cars after a certain time were factory filled with gear oil, see the 'Transmission Oil' section on this page. - http://www.mgbmga.com/tech/mgb1.htm

Nigel Atkins

Interesting article. But brass synchro rings: Only used in the 3-synch (not 'non-synchromesh') gearboxes, and gear oil has never been a problem in the V8 with 4-synch that was to all intents and purposes for this debate the same as the 4-cylinder 4-sync i.e. Mk2 on. I'm not aware of factory advice not to engage OD on the V8 for a few miles from cold, and it has never caused me a problem that I'm aware of.

As to why America changed and not UK when they were assembled on the same production lines, who knows.
paulh4

Paul, I'm with you on all and I didn't mean to suggest that the change was only to USA just that the link related to USA and there's yet to be conformation from elsewhere yet.
Nigel Atkins

I have always thought that the oil in the gearbox was as much for cooling as lubrication. We have involute helical gears and roller/ball bearings so rolling contact rather than sliding. The synchromesh needs to generate some friction to work. I've just had my gearbox overhauled primarily because the change mechanism was knackered after 140000 miles and the only thing internally that needed changing were the baulk rings and as far as I know it has always run with engine oil certainly since I have owned it (40000). I couldn't see what was wrong with the old baulk rings but my rebuilder insisted that the synchros were travelling too far. The new change mech cost a pretty penny from B&G but it was worth it. All is well now. I've got the Morris's Golden film oil in there too.
Axles are a different kettle of fish. There is sliding contact in the hypoid gear so require 'Extreme Pressure' oil to maintain an oil film and prevent wear.

Paul Hollingworth

Paul, where did you have it rebuilt?
paulh4

Good news about your gearbox and its condition over the years and mileage, not all fare so well.

Only recently I put a post that mentioned how hot the gearbox and its oil gets.

The gearbox must get some heat transfer from the engine and perhaps exhaust on occasion, though the propshaft probably dissipates most of the heat transfer from box to axle though.

When I siphoned (no drain plug on my Type 9 box) out the gearbox oil I'd got hot as I got to near all I could get out, so most of the oil was no longer cooling the box, a nasty hot vapour rose out of the filler/level hole.

I drain oil when the oil is hot and weather is warm. Warm weather isn't just for my benefit it helps in keeping the existing and fresh oil warm, I like to use a little fresh oil as a final flush-drain of the existing oil and I don't like the idea of putting cold fresh oil into a hot engine, g/box or axle.

I like the extended protection given by better quality oils as I have a lot a bad luck with my classics, I must have been right evil b*stards in previous lives. :)
Nigel Atkins

My mgb roadster (standard UK spec) was purchased and first registered August 1981. It was built late March/ early April 1980. The original 5th edition driver's handbook is the same as shown in the pics above posted by Charles. The last page in the handbook has a printer's reference which is dated 1/80.
Brian Shaw

Thanks for that.

There's usually some date reference to factory publications but it's location seems to vary.

Nigel Atkins

I am using Millers 20W/70 high ZDDP since I had the new camshaft fitted. its about 1300 ppm ZDDP although they are shy about speccing it.
The comments about gear oils that don't damage yellow metals are interesting, maybe next oil change.
Stan Best

Are there any comments about gear oils not damaging yellow metals? I thought it was more a case that they DO, but only the 3-synch gearbox with brass synchro rings is affected, not 4-synch with steel.
paulh4

Stan,
you must be using Millers' latest then at 20w/70. :)

I don't know about the current Classic Pistoneeze 20w50 and Classic Sport 20w50 and I've also found them very shy about saying how many ZDDPs they put in but I was told the Classic High Performance 20w50 NT had less of them than the previous Classic High Performance 15w50 but the additive packages in both gave full protection.
Nigel Atkins

Paul,
I think Stan is probably referring to my posts in other threads where Millers' technical adviser assured me that Millers CRX 75w-90 as a GL5 would not damage the yellow metals in my T9 gearbox and I think it was Eddie that said others had been saying the same for over 10 years but I think you and I covered this on another thread too unless I've remembered wrong again.
Nigel Atkins

Are you saying your T9 DOES have yellow metals? That would be surprising.
paulh4

Have I used the wrong terminology with yellow metal or misunderstood - brass synchros?
Nigel Atkins

My understanding of 'yellow metal' is that includes brass syncro rings. But as they were only on the 3-synch box for the MGB and the 4-synch had steel, I'm saying I'd be surprised if an 80s or so box used brass.

Also I've just noticed you were told a GL5 would not damage such metals. GL5s are usually for diffs or transaxles where the diff is in the gearbox oil, and the gearbox component material is chosen accordingly. Gearboxes would normally take GL4, the characteristics of GL5 would normally result in the brass being stripped away faster than with GL4.

It's because of such claims and counter claims I always stick to what the vehicle manufacturer recommended, after all they are the ones that are going to be faced with warranty claims, not the oil manufacturer.
paulh4

Hi Guys,

On a related point re oil, does anyone have recommendations as to how to pump in oil to either the gear box or the back diff?
I have used lawn mower plastic containers (with the correct oil of course) which have an extended tube in the cap to insert in the filler hole ,but it is a long & messy task where the gear box is concerned. I am sure i have seen suggestions somewhere on the forum where individuals have used small pumps , possibly run with an electric drill with a hose from the oil can via the pump to another hose to the filler hole.

Cheers,Charles
Charles9

I've used previously used but clean 1L bottles with the flexible neck and an extension tube as in the attached, refilled with the appropriate oil, for both CB and RB gearboxes, although it doesn't need to be that long even for RB. For the diffs the same type of bottle from below without extension tube squeezing it to push the oil out of the neck tube. You can also use a funnel in the tubing if you don't have that type of bottle, but need to watch the angle of the funnel and how fast you pour in to prevent overflows. Plenty of newspaper in the footwell and up the side of the tunnel in any event.

For the RB gearbox you still have to get underneath to put the tube in the hole so for topping-up you might as well do it from there. I know some put a tube all the way up from the gearbox into the engine compartment. Easy pouring once you have done so, but you still need to get underneath to fit it, and that's an awfully long tube for oil to stick to and only slowly drain once you have finished.



paulh4

BTW, the diff is much easier if you can support the body SAFELY to allow the axle to hang down.
paulh4

Charles, for the rear axle I use one of these Draper 1 litre hand pumps. It's quite useful as it has a hooked end, which sits nicely in the filler hole.

https://www.drapertools.com/product/23242/1L-Multi-Purpose-Pump

For my gearbox I use a long length of garden hose. One end is fitted with a 15mm copper elbow with a length of copper pipe soldered on each end (about 5cm in length). That is fixed to the hose with a jubilee clip and fits in the gearbox filler hole. The other end of the garden hose has a funnel fitted. The whole thing is fed down from the engine bay to the gearbox and filled with oil from there. I find this is the quickest way to get 6 pints of oil into the gearbox. You could of course use the Draper pump and just refill it.

Andy




Andy Robinson

Hi Paul,

I used the approach like yours last Spring with a slightly longer plastic hose attached to a 1L bottle when topping up the gear box after an initial oil change. (Many years ago i had a pit in the garage which made the exercise straight forward other than oil dripping down the arm , particularly on the 7th or 8th + refill of the 1L bottle with tiredness creeping in having to constantly squeeze the bottle).
Just trying to find an easier way of achieving the objective! I have seen various pumps sold as for dealing with oil in a domestic environment but the customer comments are not encouraging. I appreciate i would still have to get under the car as before to get access to the filler hole.

Cheers,Charles


Charles9

Try this Charles, other options are if you have your gearbox or axle out, fill it up before you put it back in,


Andy Tilney

I filled my gearbox before refitting, but as the overdrive isn’t working, it looks like I’ll have to drain it again 😩
Dave O'Neill 2

Have you confirmed you have continuity through the solenoid?

D-type or LH-type? D-types should click on and off at the solenoid as well as the relay (if fitted), LH-types don't click but are easier to measure with an ammeter as they only take about an amp as opposed to 17 amps pull-in then 2 amps hold.
paulh4

Hi Andy,
Thanks for your responses & recommendations.
As my car is a later car,the option of a funnel attached to the dash feeding a tube to the access hole through the transmission tunnel as per your photo is a non starter. Feeding a tube down from the engine side is coupled with using something like the draper pump.
Cheers, Charles
Charles9

You CAN feed a tube down through the tunnel to the side-fill gearbox fill/level hole, the hole and bung were on all cars. It means a much shorter tube than bringing it up through the engine compartment.

I wouldn't have thought either of those would need a pump anyway, gravity will do the job, with less cleaning-up after. A pump only being needed if you are filling from below if you don't use squeezy bottles.
paulh4

Hi Paul,

I'm aware of the hole & bung on the transmission tunnel , but with the lower console in place on later cars which sits over the tight fitting carpet, access without cutting the carpet and / or moving the console forward (which necessitates removing the gear lever surround) makes what should be a short exercise considerably longer, not withstanding i still have to put the car on axle stands all round to enable access underneath to undo the filler plug & have the car level to enable correct refilling.

Cheers,Charles
Charles9

paul,
you're over estimating the Type 9 as an 80s box, like our cars although they were made into, let's say, late '70s they originate from and hardly developed from earlier times.

On a quick search for a Type 9 part that includes bras in its description I found this and in other photos the metal look very yellow. -
https://www.bearingkits.co.uk/FORD-GEARBOX-PARTS/FORD-TYPE-9-GEARBOX-PARTS/C1-10-1-0.htm

I've still got some details relating to Type 9 boxes if you were interested and wanted me to pass them on to you.

With the GL5 oil in the gearbox, modern formulations of modern oils with modern additives packages have developed on from 60/50/40 years ago. If you accept the Technical Services Bulletin you put up earlier in the thread and you state you've not seen evidence of it being rescinded doesn't this show that a vehicle manufacturer can change what they recommend or allow for alternatives as the DHs still showed engine oil.

I have pet fluids, that change over time, but I do not make an arguments for using only those whether or not they differs from the factory recommendation, I usually try to offer a range and have include references to differing views to mine such as your web site and others I try to let posters have their own beliefs but beliefs (like facts, certainties, scientific proof and opinion) can change.

As always each to their own.

We learn all the time (and often then forget, well I do), I never knew Sywell had a two-seater Spitfire and we have planes from there fly over our place very regularly. :)
Nigel Atkins

Sorry I totally missed the edit guillotine, been distracted with other matters.

Apologies Paul for the lower case letter in your name.

And I put up the wrong link, try the one below, it has "This synchroniser ring has about 40% more internal brass surface area ...".
https://www.bearingkits.co.uk/UPRATED-HEAVY-DUTY-2ND-GEAR-SYNCHRO-RING-FOR-FORD-TYPE-9-GEARBOX/1304.htm
Nigel Atkins

My favourite home method for g/box diff refilling if you can't get hold of a pump bottle is to use a litre plastic bottle, softer the better
Drill a hole in the lid to take a 3/8" plastic hose (about 18" long to suit)as a tight push in fit
Cut the end of the hose at a bit of an angle and push it through the hole till it reaches the bottom of the bottle- it needs to be a nice airtight fit in the lid
Fill your bottle with whatever lube oil you need
put the outer end of the hose up into the filler hole and squash the bottle, causing the oil to go up the tube into the hole
Doesn't take long ,a couple of squooshes and it's done
works for me
willy
William Revit

Paul

I'll start another thread for the overdrive issue, rather than hi-jacking this one, although it may be a short thread.
Dave O'Neill 2

Willy,
Thanks for your observations.As i indicated before i have used the 1L bottle method with a longer piece of tubing before. (Filling the diff isn't a particular problem as relatively small capacity of oil required - just trying to make the refilling of the gear box easier )!
Cheers, Charles
Charles9

Whilst the TSB doesn't state what version of SAE80 it recommends if you look at the V8 lubrication chart whilst the minimum spec oil is the same for both the manufacturers offerings do specify a higher spec for the rear axle (and rack) compared to the gearbox. Castrol squeezy bottle purchased not that long ago clearly state in pictures and words that GL4 is for gearboxes and GL5 is for differentials, which is good enough for me. It's a funny old world, on another forum someone is adamant that GL4 is for the axles, and here it's GL5 is for gearboxes. I had no idea the Type 9 was that old, which probably explains the brass. There is enough information around showing how hypoid sulphur oils damage brass for me to be wary, and stick to the original recommendations as they are still commonly available.

I did subsequently wonder about the console on the 77 and later RBs, but before that filling from the footwell is fine.
paulh4

Paul you've missed my point, I meant the TSB states that HP SAE 90 oil can be used in the g/box whereas previously (and after) they stated engine oil, not that (at the time) they were saying GL5 could be used.

We won't fall out over our varying oil beliefs.

The Castrol bottle labels relate to the particular oil in those bottles to help with identification and sales from shop shelves. I've not got any bottles to look at but do wonder about your interpretation of the labels and can't remember such wording unless it's on the small print at the back and I wouldn't see it without my reading glasses.

Castrol Universal label shows what look like a final drive gearing to me yet is GL5 for (quote from its Data Sheet) "It meets the need for a 'universal' gear oil which can be used in automotive manual gearboxes, transaxles, transfer boxes and final drives where stringent performance specifications including API GL3, GL4 or GL5 must be met". Suggesting, where suitable, this GL5 oil can be used in "automotive manual gearboxes"

https://www.opieoils.co.uk/p-744-castrol-universal-75w-90-semi-synthetic-car-gearbox-oil.aspx

https://cdn.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/castrol/CastrolSyntraxUniv.pdf

So Paul would you believe the TSB and put "Hypoid SAE 90 oil ... in the gearbox on MG vehicles" post April 1975, GL4 of course. :)
Nigel Atkins

Final line: Of course, that is what the V8 was always specced for.
paulh4

Btw: "I never knew Sywell had a two-seater Spitfire"

I don't know whether they are based there like the Spitfire but when I was there they had 2-seater Mustang and ME109 flying in formation with it.
paulh4

We only see, or more often hear, planes when they're overhead, we're 3.5 miles from Sywell as the crow flys (according to Google Earth) but we've not been there for a few years now, too close to warm the engine plus the ale wasn't up to much on previous visits, we used end up there quite regularly on various car club events.
Nigel Atkins

my pricing comment was based upon Opie oils pricing. 5L. mini oil is £25, pistoneeze £30

G
Graham Moore

Graham,
that got me scrolling.

Assuming you saw my post on 23 January 2019 at 12:25:07, I was looking at Millers site for pricing but on checking Opie now I see what you mean.

I think there could be a few reasons for it, I've found the prices of the same product can fluctuate over time but I also allow for human/computer error, I saw an error of £20 under-priced on a product recently but it was corrected next time I saw it.

Millers site (currently) has Mini £29.99 and standard £29.50.

Opie oil often has offers and vouchers so bear that mind if you ever want to buy from them but as always shopping around can find lower prices.
Nigel Atkins

Hi Andy T, Andy R,Dave & Paul,
Just a quick update on refilling rear diff & Gear box.
I purchased a £17.99 Laser 4385 multi op mini pump ( which looks the same as the Draper one litre pump suggested by Andy R).
Yesterday, I warmed my EP90 on the radiator , poured it in to the pump & refilled the diff in about 2 minutes of hand pumping. (the diff takes about 0.85 litres per the repair manual as confirmed by what i had drained off prior to the refill).
Obviously the gear box should take about 10 minutes + refilling of the pump + having a rest from pumping, but as i did that last May I'm only going to top it up if required this year.
Many thanks for your help.
Cheers
Charles
Charles9

Perhaps you can help me out....

At the Stoneleigh show, there was a guy selling oil. LOADS of the stuff.

He had Millers Classic Sport and i agreed to buy 2 x 5L @ £50. Quite happy.

BUT

before i bought i noticed it was 20W60 not 20W50

he told me that Millers only did a 20W60 in classic sport not 20W50 and the synthetic nature of the oil....blah-di-blah-di-blah made it superior and perfect for my car.

he sounded very credible, offered to deliver more to Cambridge FOC as i wanted it since he comes here once a fortnight ...

at the time i figured i must not have looked properly at the pic online at Opie oils

so did an oil change last weekend. Went out for a drive and was sure it was about ~5psi less when hot.

And today saw Millers Classic Sport 20W50. Alarm Bells.

Any comments? Get rid and cut my losses?

G

Graham Moore

Classic Sport is the semi-synthetic. I must admit I'd not seen 20w60 but it does exist. Whether the 26/02/19 on the data sheet means it is new I don't know.

Definite keep it in if it's genue and it certainly could be. If it is 5 psi less that is nothing and higher oil pressure isn't always good.

How much fresh oil did you get in and how much previous oil remained not drained.

The 60 will be more beneficial in hot weather / hot use but bear in mind 20w, 50 and 60 are ranges. A 50 could be very close to a 60 anyway (see below) and with use the oil could drop within that range anyway, additives don't last forever despite what some may think.

A good oil will give greater margins of use so drive in a spirited way to make the oil work for its money.

(cut&paste) http://www.millersoils.co.uk/source/datasheets/Classic%20Sport%2020w60%20(2).pdf

Both 20w50 and 20w60 are listed here
http://www.millersoils.co.uk/news/synthetic-oils-in-classic-cars

I use Classic High Performance 20w50 NT in my Midget and I think the running psi is down a little on previous oils but that is a good thing as the needle was over book but it's still at the higher level for tickover.



Nigel Atkins

As said higher pressure is not necessarily a good thing as it can erode the soft metal in the bearings, and would be why Millers say it is for use in cars suffering from low oil pressure.

I can't see why 20W/60 should give less pressure then the previous 20W/50, and if you are comparing the 20W/60 new with the 'old' 20W/50 then alarm bells would definitely ring for me.

The fact they plainly do a 20W/50 as well as a 20W/60 in the first link above also raises concerns.

Three strikes, I'd dump it.

" Whether the 26/02/19 on the data sheet "

Eh? That was yesterday!
paulh4

Paul,
they probably have started doing a 20w60 by public demand, other companies sell 20w60, Penrite for example, IIRC 10w60 Mobil 1.

The range is called Classic Sport so aimed at sports or people who have or think they fast-road versions of their model. The 60 may be needed for arduous use of thought to be needed. Those involved in sport follow fashions just like others too.

If it's a different oil to what was previously used then it may well behave differently, 5 psi difference is very little, as long as it remains consistent then that is your new benchmark for condition.

The data sheet has to be issued at some data perhaps it was yesterday, perhaps it has the wrong date on, many publications even official ones have errors and typos anyway especially in these days of all of use using typing instead of trained typist and proof reading is done possibly by people like me with very dodgy spelling and not the best reading and writing.

Perhaps this particular oil interacts with the gauge more or in a different way to the previous oil, how accurate are these gauges generally (I don't know), how accurate is Graham's gauge, does a different supply pipe effect the gauge, does the gauge or it's supply pipe gunk or partially block up like arteries.

I know I'll never get you to 21st century oils but it'd be great to get you up to late 20th century. :)


Nigel Atkins

Oil is a huge problem. I have been using a speciality oil formulated with extra ZDDP in the 1971 Midget and the 1970 B. Even so, I have trashed camshafts and lifters three times and don't know what to do. i have used ZDDP additives and the specially formulated oil and it seems to make no difference.

I don't think that lifters are what they used to be so I am installing the expensive, hardened Moss lifters (with oil hole). I drive my MG-B about 30,000 mi a year on long journeys and everything holds up well except the cam and lifters.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I will try anything at this point since nothing seems to be working to protect the camshaft and lifters.
Glenn Mallory

"I have been using a speciality oil formulated with extra ZDDP"

What brand(s), out of interest?
paulh4

Glenn,
well done on doing 30k-miles a year in your B (some readers would faint at the very thought). That mileage should have your engine oil up to good working temperatures.

There's more to oil additive packages than just ZDDP and what is an extra amount of ZDDP, what is the very bare minimum required (ppm - parts per million) to add the extra to, and discounting all other protective properties of other additives(?). No I don't know, I think I read about 600 in the '60s but don't rely on my very poor memory or accept that figure as being too little, or even too much perhaps as a bare minimum.

The oil, whatever you use, can't do miracles if the parts are poorer quality than previously then they'll probably wear more. Personally I'd not trust a generally supplier of parts that sells to generally very tight-fisted customer base where the customers want the cheapest because often they only own static examples of classics. I'd have thought in your country there must be some place that specialises in making what you want (at a higher price still perhaps) but they probably don't supply to the likes of Moss who would want to pay the cost or be able to place their mark up and be able to sell to their self-fiscally-restrained customers.

What, who, do the racing boys and girls use?
Nigel Atkins

For oil brand I'll put a (very) small bet on Valvoline.
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
I've been using Penrite Diesel 15 lately in the MGs I've been looking after
It's a semi synthetic 15-50 full zinc and extra other goodies
It flows quite well cold which can be a bit of a problem with the 20-60 oils

Personally I'd be steering clear of outright racing oils for road use, they do tend to glaze the bores up in a road car from what I've experienced in the past- BUT- having said that, todays oil is different to yesterdays oil

willy
William Revit

The problem is that it's a moving target - oils keep getting reformulated to reduce 'harmful' (anything that works is by definition harmful) constituents. At one time I used Halfords Enhanced Diesel SJ (i.e. also suitable for petrol engines) 15W40 as oils for Diesel engines contained more ZDDP, but even four years ago it had been reformulated to SL, and since then has become unsuitable for reasons I can't remember. Currently the leader of the pack here seems to be Classic Oils Heritage 20W/50 endorsed by Fuzz Townshend containing 1300ppm of zinc as ZDDP.

Tried Valvoline VR1 once but never again - less than 5 litres in a 5L pack, gave lower hot oil pressures, and the container was one of those old rectangular black plastic things they used to sell reclaimed oil in. It said Valvoline Vr1 on the label, what was inside is another matter.
paulh4

I have been using Cen-Pe-Co 20W-50. See URL: http://www.cen-pe-co.com/2019/index.php/products/oils/cen-pe-co-racing-oils

They were recommended on this site several years ago. The nice thing is that this company formulates oil for old farm equipment and the owner is a British Car enthusiast. I can call him on the phone and we can talk oils and cars. Even so, my tappets and camshaft are failing. Pitting on the tappets was extreme on all cam lobes on both the last Midget teardown and the latest -B teardown. The last time I had the engine out of the -B for a clutch replacement and to install an overdrive transmission, I pulled the camshaft for a look. 3 out of 8 lobes and tappets were destroyed while the others were fine.

My theory is that once the cam wear process begins, it progresses rather extremely.

When the Midget was new in 1971 (I am the original owner), SC 30W was used by the dealer. SD additive package followed shortly there after and the engine made it to 171,000 miles before teardown. The cam and lifters were fine but everything else was beginning to wear and get a bit tired. Then SJ oil came along and suddenly the Midget had no power. The cam was completely done.

I don't know which oil to try but I have been driving these cars for almost 50 years and this problem is recent and getting worse.
Glenn Mallory

Willy,
I don't think I'd go for a racing spec only oil in a street car but if the blender says it's also to cover road cars "sustained fast road use" (which of course is subjective but they would have to consider the legal speed limit of the country) I take it to mean cover more than sunny Sunday afternoon bimbles to the local car show, although you'd need good protection from your oil for such limited use too.

With, IIRC Mobil 1 10w-60, I was told the 60 would wear (my word, I can't remember if there was, and I've no idea of the correct technical term) into the 50 band.
Nigel Atkins

Glenn,
I certainly lost my bet!

If the damaged is already done, or the parts poorer quality from new than they use to be then a good quality oil might only help to perhaps slow the deterioration a bit but can't be a cure.

Perhaps previously it was a combination of the suitability of the oils and the parts quality.

What do the A and B series engine builders say out your way for parts and oil, do many get as many miles on them as yours to say about longevity.
Nigel Atkins

Just my halfpenny worth - I always use Duckham's 20/50 (same as Halfords Classic 20/50 afaik) in the engines and change every 3000 miles regardless of time.

And to pick up on a much earlier comment re yellow metals in gearboxes - it's not just synchro rings, early boxes have bronze bushes on the mainshaft and some OD gearbox main bearings of all years have bronze cages.

All OD units have bronze thrust washers/lube bushes so GL5 is best not used.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris, some owners would take years to do 3,00 miles.

Doesn't bronze count as a "yellow metal"?
Nigel Atkins

Yes Nigel, which is why I posted .... ;-)

Keep GL5 out of BMC gearboxes!
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,
modern GL5s don't attack yellow metals anymore, not for many years as far as I can tell.

However with the piss-poor quality of many modern made replacement components they probably fall apart with or without Gl5 (or GL4) same as ethanol getting the blame for piss-poor rubber fuel hoses disintegrating.

I've been using GL5 in my Ford T9 box for a few years now and I've lost none of my looks or teeth (mouth or box) so far, but the T9 box and I are both getting very old so I expect we will at some point in the future and I will blame the GL5!

I can't see it losing my looks, though I'm not as handsome as you Chris so a testament to GL4 and green-coloured oil use.

Halfords Classic 20w50 is made by Comma (who IIRC, but not sure, make the Wilko classic oil) see the Safety Data Sheet link (View the Safety Data Sheet) on this page. -
https://www.halfords.com/motoring/engine-oils-fluids/engine-oil/halfords-classic-oil-20w50-5l
Nigel Atkins

Nigel, Interesting on the Halfords/Comma/Wilko 20w50 oil. I've been using the very affordable Comma MOT X 20w50 which I've since discovered is a different beast to their Classic range. The latter has ZDDP in the spec, but with the former it's not mentioned, so I'm guessing isn't included. Only do a few thousand a year on a 90,000 mile pretty worn engine, so can't comment on relative merits.
Interesting, Glenn's experiences which sounds as it's heat related/inadequate case hardening. I wonder what the original design spec was - 10,000pa on give and take roads? The installation of overdrive hopefully should help.
Peter Allen

Peter,
you're not running in a new engine or new parts so your concern for lots of ZDDP is lower.

If you're doing low mileage and lots of short journeys that's where the need extra protection and if you want to drive the car in a very spirited way you may want more overall oil protection.

The thing is how many ZDDPs are actually needed, say there used to be 500 of them swimming about would 1,000 be better or over populated, would 1,000 do more work or the same work but easier for them individually, and then they're only one species of the general population that make up that particular sea of oil and the whole sea environment changes with decades that pass.

Currently ZDDP is a good marketing and sales tool, I'm not saying it's not needed or doesn't do a good job but there are over ingredients to make up of the oil overall to make it an average or better quality oil.

The engine getting the oil to the correct operating temperature as soon as possible and operating at sufficient usage is an important factor for whatever oil is used. As is sufficiently regular and thorough oil and filter changes.

I've absolutely no technical knowledge but have read of B-series engines doing high mileages without too much wear so I think something went wrong somewhere for Glenn.

With comparisons you also have to take into account people's experience, expectation and use and of course history of the car and its history which usually is at least partly unknown (but not so much with Glenn's case).

Nigel Atkins

This thread was discussed between 10/01/2019 and 22/04/2019

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