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MG MGB Technical - Ethanol conversion

For environmental reasons I would like to convert my MGB and midget to run on E85, 85% ethanol fuel, when it is made more commonly available. I believe this can be done by changing fuel lines, gaskets etc, and possibly change the timing and carburetter needles. Can any of you tell me more about what has to be done?

Tore
Tore

Tore-
Ethanol produces noticably less power than gasoline (petrol). Are you really sure that you want to do this to your Midget?
Steve S.

Hmmm. I know there is less energy in ethanol, but thought that could be compensated by increasing the consumption. If not this may be a real problem...

Tore
Tore

Tore. To add to Steve's question. We have two types of "environmentally friendly" motor fuel here in the Phoenix area. Part of the year, our fuel is a blend of gasoline (petrol) and ether. The winter months we use a blend of gasoline and ethanol very similar to the E85 blend.

Gas milage for the gasoline/ethanol blend is significantly lower than when pure gasoline is used. Several US government figures have shown at E85 is less efficient than pure gasoline. Interestingly enough, I have not been able to find any facts--based on tests conducted, only "government estimates" of reduced milage ranging from 20% reduction to 50% reduction depending on which agency is doing the estimating.

I can say, from my own records, that our blend of 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol has resulted in about a 20% reduction in the number of miles obtained from one gallon of the blended fuel. Thus, I am not sure that any real environmental savings are taking place. I do know that fuel is sold, and taxed by the federal, state, and local governments, by the gallon. This means that even if the current fuel does not have any environmental impact, it does generate significantly higher tax revenues.

Les
Les Bengtson

Tore-
Les has got it right. Way back in 1978 I purchased a new Chevrolet Caprice Clasic with a 5.0-liter V8 engine. When the local Texaco station started selling ethanol- blended gasoline, I tried it. Fuel economy fell about 18% in highway cruising at 55 MPH, and and power output suffered accordingly. In around-town driving, the results were worse. Needless to say, I stopped buying it.
Steve S.

That does not sound very promising. This is quite new in Norway, but as the ethanol that will be used is supposed to be what is often referred to as "second generation" - made not from corn, soya beans or sugar, but from local waste, cellulose etc - I believe there will be a saving in co2 emissions even if the consumption increases. Fuel taxes will also be adjusted to make E85 more attractive. But it has to work reasonably well in the MG engine, of course.

Tore
Tore

Tore - From what I am reading about Ethanol, it is more of a feel good issue rather than a real reduction of green house gases. It would appear that there is more CO2 emissions from the production of ethanol than there are in savings from using it as fuel, for a net gain in the amount of green house gases being produced - it is just being shifted from the vehicles tail pipe to the exhause of the production facility. I'm not sure how accurate all of this information is, but it is something to think about. I also queried Burlen Fuel Systems regarding the effect of ethanol fuels on the diaphragms of the fuel pumps and was told that it (the ethanol fuel)does have a detrimental effect on the present diaphragm material - something else to consider. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

I believe this community is full of naysayers and are not open enough so see any the possibilities in anything good. Maybe when they are dead and gone their kids will do something worthwhile.

They sure do love to point out what is wrong and why you can't do anything but exactly what they do!
Anon

As I understand it, although the calorific value of ethanol is lower than petrol, the air:fuel ratios by volume are still quite high, so adding the extra volume of fuel required to make it stoichiometric does not de-rate the engine too much.

A big advantage is that it has a very high octane rating, so you can run a much higher compression ratio (or more boost!) without risk of knocking. On a stock B-series though, it's unlikely that you will be able to take advantage of this property.

I think conversion is more involved than just fuel lines and gaskets, though - I think the fuel tends to turn acidic over time which will then eat away carburettors and other metal parts that it comes into long-term contact with.

It can't be too much worse than rocket science, though - I dare say there are folks out there that have done it, but failing that how about buying a new saab and dismantling it to see how it's done and then reporting back here? :oD

/ramble
--
Olly
Oliver Stephenson

I do think converting cars and working ethanol is useful for everyones education. People stout stuff like loss of power when they put nothing else into perspective such as compression, engine temps, cam duration and on and on. If people want to play with it it is a HOBBY and the worst we can do is learn more then what some narrow minded big mouth has to say on the internet.

On the flip side I find ethanol a more important solution for new cars as they have a much larger impact then our hobby cars.

Go for it!

Anon

Here are some links on E85 fuel;
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html
This one is a 2001 Ford Explorer Sport conversion;
http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm

http://www.articlefriendly.com/articledetail.php?artid=6485&catid=219&title=Converting+Your+Vehicles+To+Use+E85+-+Ethanol+Fuel

Read about the politics and economics of E85 in the USA and how manufactures enjoy credits for lowered CAFE requirements if they build flex fuel vehicles.
Remove the CAFE credits and see what happens to flex fuel vehicles.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_23/

Clifton
Clifton Gordon

I notice that the ones actually offering coherent responses on this thread have identified themselves. This increases their credibility greatly, Tore. Those who hide, generally have nothing substantive to offer.

R.
Rick Stevens

Or tired of the same old few who dominate everything and really don't give a sh*t about them personally.
Phil

In the 1960s, when our cars were new, ethanol fuel mixes were quite popular. I remember my father running our Rover 90 on Cleveland Discol, which was an ethanol blend.

It was supposed to give more power and clean the engine, but certainly never hurt it, or required any modifications to the fuel system.
Martin Layton

I very much appreciate the opinions of those who dominate, since they seem to have the helpful information I need. Thanks, dominators, for leading me through the rough stuff. It would've been a lot harder, if not for you.
Fred Doyen

Having grown up in Nebraska, I have an understanding of just how powerful the farm lobby can be. Is ethanol better or worse? It doesn't matter, just get used to it.
Dan Robinson

Tore

My uncle used to do ethanol conversions all the time back in the early 1960's. I used to race a gocart that ran on alcohol. This was a 2 cycle engine and it would screem. Signifigantly higher rpm. He had cars that ran on alcohol, and were set to run on gas or alcohol. Increasing the compression can compensate for the reduction in caloric value.

Here is an article I found on this. http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id26.html

For the B. Biggest issue would be increasing the jet size. In the old carburettor cars, you just drilled the jet larger. For the B. You would need to probably change the needle but I don;t know if the actual size of the jet would need to increase.


BEC Cunha

Bruce - Larger jets are available for the SU carbs. I don't remember though if they are 0.100 or 0.125. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Back during WWII the US government rationed gasoline to the public as the refineries worked overtime to keep the military supplied. Ethanol was mixed with gasoline both to stretch the domestic supplies further, and to create a simple additive to attend to the needs of those whose later-model cars had higher compression engines. Owners of jalopies (the forerunner of the Hot Rod) skimmed their heads for more compression and kept on racin'. Hollywood got into the act to help sell a skeptical public on the new-fangled stuff, making purchase of Ethanol-blended fuels a matter of patriotic contribution to the war effort. There was even a cartoon in which a jalopy owner with an "A" card stuck in his windshield (Bugs Bunny, I think) pulled into a gas station and knowingly told the pump attendant to "Fill'er with Ethyl" while winking at the theater audience. After the war ended, the horsepower race began, gasoline improved, and Ethanol-blended fuel fell by the wayside. Boosting compression just couldn't compensate for the lower caloric value.
Steve S.


Here's Car & Driver's view on the ethanol question.


http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11174/tech-stuff-ethanol-promises.html
Jeff L

Steve S. - Even through my high school years (graduated in '71) we were calling it "Ethyl" instead of "super" or "hi-test". I never really knew where that came from. Cool info.

R.
Rick Stevens

I don't remember exact figures, but I'm sure you all know that alcohol takes energy to make. Seems like the present day stuff from corn takes about half the energy to produce that it gives back. They (some researchers) are working on ways to get that ratio down.

I'm sure you can make an MG run fine on E85 or pure alcohol. It will take some mods, but you can do it.

If we can afford to set up wave generator arrays in the oceans, it looks like a great way to harness that energy. Imagine a bunch of pulleys with floats on one end and generators with a spring return on the other. Every time a wave goes by, the float pulls up and turns the generators.

Wind farms look precarious, but natural, too.

Hopefully we will get away from fossil fuels soon.

Alcohol fuels will work if we can afford them, hybrid tech is advancing, hydrogen maybe someday.

Control of the oil sure does seem to be the reason the US is so stubborn to stay in the game in the middle east.

All that said, I run gas with no alcohol in my cars, unless I want to soak up some moisture in the tank.

Tom

"Ethyl" comes not from "ethanol" but from "tetra ethyl lead", which is the lead additive that has now been removed. Invented and first used in the 20s as I recall, to boost octane ratings and thereby allow high compression ratios, hence better power and economy. Presumably Steve's story is meant to mean Bugs referring to a replacement for the "high test" gas that was not available at the time. Most but not all "high test", "premium" etc. was produced by adding the lead compound, so "ethyl" became the common term for gas you could put in a high compression and presumably powered engine. Then as now, people erroneously thought that the high octane rated fuel would increase power on its own, not true then or now.
FRM
FR Millmore

Wow! What an overwhelming response while I have been asleep! Thanks everyone - I will go into all the links when I have the time later today.

As for the environmental value of ethanol, I think this depends very much on what raw materials are used and how the electric energy needed is made.

Tore
Tore

The thing about the blends available like E85 is that they are intended to be usable in existing engines without major modifications. By major modifications I mean ones thet can't easily be reversed.

To get the best out of ethanol you need to run a higher compression ratio. This is not easily reversed and therfore needs a network of ethanol fuel stations to make it practical. Once you have an engine that is optimised to run on ethanol it compares favourably with a normal petrol engine.

As for the CO2 argument, put in non scientific terms, after all I am a Chartered Accountant, when you grow the ethanol feed stock it takes in the carbon from CO2 and then when you burn the ethanol the carbon turns back into CO2. No net increase in CO2 provided the processing and the delivery fleet run on bio fuel too. In Brazil they use the husks of the sugar cain plants as fuel for the processing plant.

Clearly in the migration to bio fuels bio diesel has an advantage over ethanol as the bio fuel is much closer to the fossil fuel in its characteristics so the modification issues don't arise.

So Tore, go for it. While it may be sub-optimal to start with, once there is a reliable network of ethanol suppliers you can then optimise your engine.

David Witham

In my area of the state we have had reformulated gas using 10% ethanol for many years. The older the car, the worse the impact is on mileage. Throttle body injected cars lose more mpg than multiport injected cars, carburated cars loose even more mpg. My C looses 8 mpg. The heat content of a gallon of ethanol is around 19,000 BTU while the heat content of gasoline is around 22,000 btu's. This is why I drive to a different county to fill my MG's.
John H

An interesting point,as more ethanol is needed for fuel, more corn will be diverted from direct food use [tortilias[SP]]and from food production [hog feed], enough that the price of corn will go crazy.
Now I hear the voices in field saying that we don't need to use corn we can use weeds,potatos,apples etc. Tell the corn lobbies, they will laugh at you.
Just a little ramble,but I do wonder what the high price of corn will do the economy of Mexico. Ric
Ric Lloyd

Long term I think using food to make fuel is unacceptable. Food is for people, not for cars. The way to go is second generation bio fuels, both ethanol and diesel, made from non edible bio mass that grows naturally, without intensive, energy consuming farming.

Tore
Tore

Y'all (except Tore who has clearly already heard of this) should have a read of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellulosic_ethanol

Doesn't really compete with food growing.

fwiw,
--
Olly
Oliver Stephenson

Ric, it has already started. The farmers are already being hit with increased prices in feed for there livestock that is made from corn. You can bet that one of the biggest pushers behind ethanol is Archer Danials Midland known more by the initials ADM.
John H

I've seen reports of riots in Mexico as corn prices have risen. The general consensus is that making ethanol from corn is more of a farm subsidy than an energy or carbon saving strategy. Being able to make enough commercially from wastes does make sense. The Brazilians are lucky enough to use sugar cane - which has a lot more inherent energy than corn.

The most promising actual answer I've seen is Thermal Depolyimerization - there's an outfit called Changing Worl Technologies that essentially pressure cooks anything with carbon in it - food wastes, the stuff your dog leaves on your lawn, garbage, computers - and renders it into something close to dinosaur juice. The issues they've had with the process is that it can be very smelly (the stuff it works best on is very nasty), and the "cooking" process varies widely depending on what goes into the hopper. The company also got tripped up by some slick transfer cost accounting as well - if you're following these trends.

Anyway - rather than a dead loss (like hydrogen) or close to break even (like ethanol), this process produces 100 BTU for each 15 that goes in. And as it is already waste, the "purpose-made" economic problems with biofuels go away. I don't think you hear a lot about it because, frankly, there isn't a big company like ADM going after your tax dollars.
John Z

On another note concerning alternate energy sources, whatever happened to those soon-to-come atomic powered cars that we all read about in our Weekly Readers during Eisenhower's "Atoms For Peace" program?
Steve S.

"rather than a dead loss (like hydrogen) or close to break even (like ethanol)"

Ethanol is up to 2.6:1 but these figures have been ignored. It get's better the more people use it. With dedication farms can change their crops to better suit the fuel. Ton't of headway but it doesn't happen overnight.

It's all about $$$ People want the government to do something. When the government does everyone says "Look they are makeing us do this!" then they say "make them do something".

In the end, when gas is cheap, no one cares, when gas is more expensive everyone scrambles for a solution. Gas is simply too too cheap. As the prices rice solutions will come out of the woodwork. Everyear technology in a 100 areas lead us closer to many different solutions. Right now they are developing solar film to be intigrated into surfaces. They are looking at making sif=ding, roofing, ton's of things with intigrated solar cells. Feeding the power back to the power company, the power company becomes as much a battery as it does a source.

The solutions will take care of themselves as cost change $$$
Anon

In other news: http://www.fastmachines.com/archives/irl/004061.php

Ethanol is going to be with us for a while.
Bill Boorse

Great! I really feel good about this technology. If we can make it work in our old MGs, we may be able to enjoy them for far more years than I believe will be the case otherwise.

I hope to be able to drive my MGs safely until I am 75, and regard it as pretty unlikely we will be allowed to drive such old school cars on dino juice by 2023. So this is partly concern for our children and common planet, and partly pure selfishness!

Tore
Tore

"Gas is simply too too cheap." No wonder you're anonymous.

Granted, as fuel prices rise, more options become economically viable (pause for the "Doh!"). But what people simply don't grasp is the sheer scale of the transportation miracle. There is cropland in America sufficient for food or fuel - but not both.

2.6:1? In which direction? Most reports indicate ethanol is a slight loss at the moment, waiting for the waste recycling breakthrough. US News & World Report is the latest skeptic.

Bill - that article is hilarious. I'm reading Bill Bryson's new book about "The Thunderbolt Kid", with his memories of the Fifties. There's a Camel cigarette ad scientifically proving that most doctors smoked Camels. Yes, you can get an engine to run on ethanol - it's not that hard. Apparently the people who wrote the press release are (you guessed it) in the ethanol business.

I've got an open mind about ethanol - but the more I read about it, the less convincing the arguments are about it being "the answer". Useful as an extender, yep, but we should start looking for other parts of a new energy recipe.
John Z

Typical canned response.
Phil

When this becomes a real BBS like MGB Experience then subjects can be taken seriously. Join us over there if you want a real BBS. Forums that allow anonymous post and don't post IP's will never have much clout.
Anon

There are none so blind as those who would not see.

John Z

MG experiense is pretty good but how can you guys take the guy with the lizard on his face seriously. What a joke! And to post such a retarded photo of one self!

Good MGA info there!
Today

He's just gay. Don't patronize him.
Anon

Anon...

That type of comment is uncalled for...but I would expect such from someone without the kahunas to post his/her real name.

Flame suit on.

rick
rick ingram

As quoted by the so called victim:

"Not all humans deserve respect. To offer it to everyone devalues its meaning."
Observer

Hey, this means my next engine will be perfect for conversion to pure ethanol when the time comes. With a 10:1 cr and a blower, I should be able to cram enough air in to raise the effective ratio enough to run on the stuff. Fun. Maybe I should go to 11:1

Jim
Jim Blackwood

As for the atomic car, I used to work with a guy who had previously been at the Lawrence Livermore Lab. He claimed that they had built kitchen ranges that ran off of nuclear waste, and both a car and a 707 that were atomic powered, tested in secret. He said the reason they were never developed was because they were too dangerous in case of a crash, but I suspect it had as much to do with 'pressure' from the oil companies.
Also, not to worry about the loss of corn for animal feed; they've learned to produce 'meat' from animal stem cells. But they have to stretch it mechanically while it grows so that it more resembles muscle than goo. Put a steak on the barbie!!
Joe Ullman

I wouldn't bet on it. In 1967, American Airlines paid $0.10 per gallon for jet fuel, not (relatively) the expensive product it later became. I flew many, many hours in the B707 and the shielding required would have been prohibitive.
Dan Robinson

"Posted 09 February 2007 at 17:58:52 UK time
Today

MG experiense is pretty good but how can you guys take the guy with the lizard on his face seriously. What a joke! And to post such a retarded photo of one self!

Good MGA info there!"

He's a punkass kid that acts more like a muslem or a Natzi.
Bill S

I don't know, Dan, but I remember he said that on the plane, the reactor was inside a 'lead ball'.
But, this has digressed from the topic of E85. Right now, I'm running the under-the-car fuel lines, feed and return for the f.i., in stainless steel, on my B-v8 conversion. I figure that'd be the hardest part to replace down the road if I want to run E85. Long, long term project. Finally almost done with the brake system. Silicone or Valvoline SynPower? Just kidding! Joe
Joe Ullman

Convert to E85 if you want but the benifit largely from daily drivers. I prefer to let the new cars be E85; the cars we put 20K miles a year on and not wory about the colector cars.
Triumph1

Triumph 1,

"New cars"? My MGB IS my daily driver! ' Guess Triumph guys can't do that. 8^) 8^) 8^).

I've now read this entire thread with great interest (except I still need to check out all the links), but the one issue that I haven't seen addressed is the potential necessity of converting to E85. Will there come a time when pure gasoline is no longer available and E85 is our only option? Never mind for the moment how well or how economically, but will our MGs run on the stuff without damage. If not, what's the practical advice on what needs to be done?

Here in the Michigan Thumb, the word seems to be that sugar beets are better than corn for ethanol production. There's also a guy around here who is very serious about obtaining ethanol from switch grass.

On the fuel/food equation, for starters anyway, it seems like a ripe time for tobacco farmers to save their farms by switching to ethanol production. That, of course, would not affect the food supply.

FWIW,
Allen
Allen Bachelder

Sorry Allen but you won't get the suport of the guys here. They will nay say you till doomsday.
Triumph 1

Allen,
It's a reduced or less drastic version of standard drill for running on methanol. The ethanol is not "supposed" to eat carb alloys as methanol does, hope that's true. Other than electronically controlled timing which is nice for optimization but not necessary on any engine - Jack up the compression, drill out the carb float valves and jets, replace any and all polymeric substances in contact with fuel, maybe a bigger capacity pump if you have a big engine like a Healey or Jag. Oh, yeah, a bigger fuel tank, since you will be stopping more often, and I hate stopping for gas. He go good like dat, oh yeah.
FRM
FR Millmore

I just shipped ut a complete igniton package for a fellow who is converting his MGB to run on E85. When I find outhis progress I can post updates. It looks like his only real concern is the rubber fuel lines and carb seals.
Jeff Schlemmer

Sorry, Triumph 1, I thought I included enough smiley faces to clarify that my reference to the old mostly-mythical MG-Triumph rivalry was but a joke. There is a TR6 in my auto-biography. No offense intended, but you have to admit the context was perfect for such a jab. I just couldn't resist!

Cheers, and happy daily driving in your triumph!

Allen
Allen Bachelder

I took it that way Allen,

Thanks.
Triumph 1

Hey, here's a novel concept for you guys to chew on a bit. Instead of concentrating all our efforts on ethanol, maybe we should be looking at another source for bio fuel.

Ever notice that pine sap contains a hydrocarbon or three? How concentrated it is I don't know but enough to keep them from freezing in pretty cold weather. Well here's a thought. We have the technology to tap the trees and collect the sap, and we have the technology to refine just about any old hydrocarbon into oil and gasoline, and we have absolutely huge pine forests. Wouldn't it seem to make sense to let the trees convert the sunlight, harvest the sap, convert it to fuel and use it in our vehicles?

If it smelled like gin it'd still be more pleasant than that stuff we're burning now.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

' Sounds good to me. Also, how many hydro carbons lurk in the garbage we're dumping into landfills every day?

Another question: if trees (and other green stuff) can convert CO2 to oxygen, amassing matter and energy in the process, why can't we?

Allen
Allen Bachelder

"Posted 12 February 2007 at 21:01:19 UK time
Jim Blackwood, Gunpowder Rd., jblackwood5@insightbb.com

Hey, here's a novel concept for you guys to chew on a bit. Instead of concentrating all our efforts on ethanol, maybe we should be looking at another source for bio fuel.

Ever notice that pine sap contains a hydrocarbon or three? How concentrated it is I don't know but enough to keep them from freezing in pretty cold weather. Well here's a thought. We have the technology to tap the trees and collect the sap, and we have the technology to refine just about any old hydrocarbon into oil and gasoline, and we have absolutely huge pine forests. Wouldn't it seem to make sense to let the trees convert the sunlight, harvest the sap, convert it to fuel and use it in our vehicles?"

It takes a enough energy to run a small country to get a usefull quanity of sap out of a tree.

They have altered crops off all types when the demand is ready. Farmers like to keep food type crops but that will change in the future as dedicated crops for eth is more secure. No one here is paying attention though. They are still quoting the facts from 1976.
Phil

Tree sap has been used traditionally for maple syrup and rubber. Capturing this stuff in commercial quantities is very energy intensive. This is why most of our syrup is made from corn sugar with artificial maple flavoring, and synthetic rubber was invented. Not to say that theses are bad ideas - just not efficient for the 20 or so million barrels of petroleum we consume daily.

As I mentioned earlier, and folks reference above, waste is all around us, and is possible to reform back into energy. Please see: http://www.changingworldtech.com/

Ethanol is part of the solution - but if you want to get at the problem directly and efficiently, the thermal depolymerization route has got to be added to the mix, the sooner the better. Ethanol has this huge PR and lobbying machine behind it, and these guys don't, but their science adds up and solves alot more issues at the same time.



John Z

In regards to "Anon" I dont like people who like to think they know about this BBS and then act like they are educated about Ethanol and then not post anything to help the person who asked the question. Also for your information check back in the archives and you will see a million posts about Ethanol, I didnt see you post anything about why running E85 or 100% ethanol would be a good thing, just prove it, thats why we are having this Thread. Do you own an MGB ? Have you converted any other cars to Ethanol, do you have anything you can offer besides just being a child?
James

Oh yea and didnt a certain doctor make a Delorean run on garbage already? And out of curiosity, what happened to all you guys in England (those who are) coverting cars over to Propane. I remember that got kind of big when your gas prices were at where ours here in the US are. Supposedly propane for older cars is a viable option. You can also run gas in your car as well if you run out of propane and cant fill up. So how about this a Propane/Ethanol combo, hmm can u supercharge propane ? Or just use a nice P/E combo on a V8 conversion.
James

"Posted 13 February 2007 at 20:15:19 UK time
James, NY, jamesbekman@hotmail.com

In regards to "Anon" I dont like people who like to think they know about this BBS and then act like they are educated about Ethanol and then not post anything to help the person who asked the question. Also for your information check back in the archives and you will see a million posts about Ethanol, I didnt see you post anything about why running E85 or 100% ethanol would be a good thing, just prove it, thats why we are having this Thread. Do you own an MGB ? Have you converted any other cars to Ethanol, do you have anything you can offer besides just being a child?"

You don't have a damn clue what I have and because of people like you I avoid british cars and their goofy egos. I don't give a damn what your little mind thinks!
Anon

PS look in the back of a Delorean. It's a 6 banger! Not a car guy eh!
Anon

pro·jec·tion - Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pruh-jek-shuhn]–noun

11. Psychology. a. the tendency to ascribe to another person feelings, thoughts, or attitudes present in oneself, or to regard external reality as embodying such feelings, thoughts, etc., in some way.
b. Psychoanalysis. such an ascription relieving the ego of a sense of guilt or other intolerable feeling.


It looks like small-mindedness is writ large.
John Z

Yea! Dickhead has a dictionary!
Anon

LOL, This old fashion forum gets worse every day! LOL
wyatt

John, don't feed the troll. He's obviously encouraged by any comment whether compliment (well, none of those clearly) or complaint. If he had any intention of defending his bald statements he would have done so already, so that's all we'll get from him. Since he can't back up what he says he is clearly a lightweight and not worthy of any consideration whatsoever.

Anyway, about the pine sap, shouldn't be that tough to make up a device that could be attached to the tree which could pipe out the sap through a small tube to a collection header. Anyway they already do this for turpentine don't they? Seem it'd just be a matter of ramping up production.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

From the ricer fart! LOL
Anon

And by the way Jimbo, I saw your car last year; like everyone said it was a real PoS. Yes I got a british car but it ain't a MG! I have had it with the group though. I am planning on selling it and getting a corvette.
Anon

Wait were you just trying to Flex your knowlege by saying a Delorean has a 6 Cylinder in it ?
James

New Technology Makes Biofuel From Any Renewable Oil

By Anita LaFond, News Editor, Manufacturing.net
Manufacturing.Net - February 13, 2007


Diversified Energy Corp., an alternative and renewable energy company, announced Tuesday an exclusive licensing agreement with North Carolina State University for Centia, a “100 percent green” biofuels technology that produces high performance fuels from any renewable oil.

When compared to other biofuel processes like biodiesel and ethanol, Centia is said to provide up to a 50 percent reduction in external energy required in the process and offers a “100 percent green” biofuel product containing no fossil fuel components.

Because Centia uses any renewable lipid-based oil compound (such as soybean, canola, animal fats, algae), it is not dependent on the price or availability of any one supply source.

Centia will initially being used to produce commercial and military jet fuel and a cold-weather biodiesel additive, both of which are challenging and complex hydrocarbon fuels and have received little attention by the biofuels industry.
Paul Wiley

Very cool,
Glad they are addressing the Commercial and Military Jet fuel. There are no emissions restrictions on any Jets that are flying around by the thousands each day buring more fuel than any of are cars ever will. But Jet fuel is just Kerosean, is it really complex ? I know the gas we use in our cars is much more refined. The most high grade gas is AV gas and tractor fuel(which I forgot what its called, and also forgot how to spell Kerosene? for some reason) any info if they are going to get into those fuels? I know there is a guy flying around with biofuels in his plane, he converted it but I just dont have the info on hand.
James

Did you guys see the program on the algae farm? I don't recall exactly but it seems they were somehow using it like a solar cell, and then when they harvested it they converted the mass into oil. Seemed like a reasonably efficient process.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

The military jet syn-fuel is currently being tested at Edwards AFB using a B-52. Within the last few weeks it flew powered entirely with the new syn-fuel. Previous flights had burned the fuel only in one or several of the eight engines.

Jet fuel is somewhat complex as it is blended to remain dry (not absorb water), fluid at low temperatures and avoid vapor lock conditions.

I've not seen any information regarding the origins of the fuel nor the process being used, but it did not seem to be ethanol based.

Piston powered aircraft require 100 octane with low lead. Can't use ethanol unless the entire fleet is replaced or the fuel cells, valve systems and suitable engines refitted. Not likely, so avgas will be around a long time and expensive. Currently >$5.00/gal in many places.

BTW, autos burn significantly more fuel than all the jets flying.
Edd Weninger

I just got done listening to an excellent piece regarding all the facets and realities of ethanol use on National Public Radio. Henry Ford said that ethanol was the fuel of the future way back when, but as usual, US tax policy ensured that it wouldn't happen. Now it will, whether it makes sense or no. They have it, and more that was not broadcast, on their website, www.npr.org This will be audio files, so those of you who do not have broadband are screwed, like me.
I agree completely with John Z, thermal depolymerization is a major event, and governments are indeed remiss in not pushing it heavily, but hey, what's anybody going to push efficient trash disposal and free and easy to get fuel for? Too much money in hauling it, stashing it, arguing and protesting it, and similar for all the regular oil production and alt. fuel fantasies on the other end of the cycle.
Didn't see the algae farm program, but I just read about one such project in a science mag. They (US Gov.)have been "experimenting" with this since **1978**, and they have problems with high evaporation and temperature swings in the Sonoran desert - surprise! They say they will be ready for "field trials" in a year or so - my 15yr old daughter could do that in a spare time science project in a couple of years, but she doesn't have a government funding source to force and enable it to take forever without results.
FRM
FR Millmore

Tore - if gas is readily available in Norway as it now is in the Netherlands and UK, there are some relatively simple conversions (round tanks to replace the spare etc) - you probably know you would add less to the carbon haze that way and in the UK at least, save yourself a mint on fuel cost.

If you want to save on natural resources (different issue) and don't want to be reliant on a pig-farmer (worked during WW2),ethanol is one answer but it does add to the haze. A well-tuned engine with a cleaned-up head driven with no shoe on the right foot (another wartime discovery)saves benzin and carbon.

Seriously 'though, the time is not far off when the eco zealots will round on the classic car world and brand its enthusiasts as mindless and uncaring. You can then wait for the politicians to react with test standards to drive us off the road. The challenge is to adapt and stay ahead - if ethanol is best you can do in Norway - go with it.

Roger
RMW

Tore: the solution to the performance problem with running E85 is Turbo-Charged Fuel Injection. You'll need two programs, one for E85 that allows for higher boost pressures to take advantage of Ethanol's Higher octne rating and a second program for gasoline that would lower the boost. It always sounds like people think there can only be one answer to the energy problem, we need several answers. I think that Ethanol could be a viable piece in the total energy picture, but there need to be more pieces, like trans-esterifcation of vegetable oils to become BioDiesel, maybe fuel cells for local driving and perhaps wind and solar for stationary power. That's why I've been on the lookout for an 1800cc B-Series Diesel for my MGB-GT. I'm thinking more along the lines of waste oil bio-diesel production in my garage.
John Perkins

This thread was discussed between 05/02/2007 and 16/02/2007

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