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MG MGB Technical - Facts RE: Ethanol Blended Fuels

For those of you interested in the negatives of ethanol blended fuels, open and read the below links. The first is a brief summary and the second goes into more detail.

http://www.masepoxies.com/users/0142C6E0-CF1D-CEE2-59ED58C41CE094DA/library/files/gotethanol.pdf

http://www.masepoxies.com/users/0142C6E0-CF1D-CEE2-59ED58C41CE094DA/library/files/mm148ethanal.pdf

Frank Grimaldi
Frank Grimaldi

http://www.fcai.com.au/publications/all/2006/6/3/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol-

Gives a better explanation of why 10% ethanol should not be used in 'older' vehicles.
P Hunt

I'm not taking one side or the other, but for your consideration, contrary opinion:
http://www.hagerty.com/lifestyle/hobby_article.aspx?id=55960

(For those not in the US, Hagerty Insurance, the company which sponsored this study, is an insurer of classic vehicles.)
Rob Edwards

For - against? It's really a mute point in the US since non- 10% ethanol (or greater percentage) is near impossible to find.

If anyone knows of a 'brand' of gas station - in the US - that does carry straight gasoline that would be good information to know. I suspect that all the nation-wide brands have given up on it.
G Oakes

You should try the crap they have here in California. It eats fuel system parts and has 10% less power. All in the name of reduced emmissions. RAY
rjm RAY

My MGB and MGC get Star Tron to protect the fuel and fuel systems. We live in a fishing community and the boat operators swear by it. The local Car Quest store says that Star Tron is thier number one selling item in the store. We learned of Star Tron at the Brtish Invasion at Stow, VT a few years ago and have used it since. I'm not a big beleiver in addatives, but I'll keep using this product. I have no connection to this company.

Chuck
Chuck Hassler

Contrary?

"Short-term performance on E10 was unaffected, but there were indications that operating an SU-equipped vehicle over a long period of time may require more frequent fuel system maintenance to replace seals and remove varnishes and particulate buildup on components, such as the dashpot damper, the inside of the dashpot and on the throttle shaft. Softening or cracked seals and gaskets could allow leakage, and the varnish could impede throttle shaft operation. The only other noticeable concern was corrosion inside the steel drum used as a fuel tank, suggesting that it may be prudent to coat or seal steel fuel tanks."
P Hunt

Hi Paul,
You didn't quote these bits:
"A 1,500- to 3,000-hour target was set to ensure the validity of the program, which continued as of late December 2008. Although the SU carburetors and fuel pumps from the 1962 MGA had successfully completed the 3,000 hours of cycling on and off, test results of the other fuel systems will be reported on in future issues of Hagerty’s."
....
"Until [the tests of the five other fuel systems are complete], it’s safe to assume that you can continue to drive your collector vehicle using E10; it may just cost you more in the long run."

That runs contrary to your statement "...10% ethanol should not be used in 'older' vehicles."

Cheers!
Rob Edwards

Paul,

I think it almost certain that the reference to MGs in the Australian website doc is to the more recent (Rover) MGs - 90s onwards, and not to the B, A or other of the 'genuine' article.

The clue to this is in the introduction, where reference is made to communication with manufacturers, also in the reference to driver handbooks or contacting manufacturers where in doubt.

I note also that the suitability of E5/unsuitability of E10 is common to both MG and Rover in the schedule.

I'm afraid that I am sceptical of the objectivity of much of what passes as community information from our Federal bureaucracy. The previous government actively promoted the introduction of E10 by legislation and subsidisation of sugar-cane based ethanol production in a 'mates' deal.

Our present government is headed by a PM determined to 'save the planet' (read we know best for you all!!) by leading in the introduction of responses to global warming. Much ado in local politics at present in regard to proposed legislation aimed at carbon reduction, Opposition leadership changes as a consequence, and the really big one - developing nations carping the developed nations (and our PM in particular) at Copenhagen earlier this month.

I fear this is bound to be a confounding and confusing area for some time to come.

Regards
Roger
Roger T

Rob - I didn't because I was questioning your claim, as I understood it, that the Hagerty report indicated that E10 was fine for older engines, when it clearly states there *are* detrimental effects over time. Your second quote is a summary of the Hagerty findings that seals and tanks *will* be damaged by E10 in the long run, which is surely what we are interested in?

Roger - if E10 is considered unsuitable for 'modern' MGs and Rovers by the Australian document then I'm damned sure it is going to be unsuitable for ours! And that is again, surely the point?
P Hunt

Hi Paul,

Maybe it's a difference in interpretation.

Forgive me if I'm putting words in your mouth, but your statement "...10% ethanol should not be used in 'older' vehicles" sounds to me like, "DON'T." Full stop. Implying "if you can't find E0, park the car."

The Hagerty article, on the other hand, says "it’s safe to assume that you can continue to drive your collector vehicle using E10." In that I read, "You'll just have to do some more maintenance and maybe take a few extra steps. But there's certainly no need to take the car off the road, and over the short term there's no harm."

I'd say these are different positions. And as I said in the intro to my first post, I'm not taking either position, just pointing out conflicting opinion. Like nearly everything else, it's not cut and dried....

Cheers!
Rob Edwards

Paul,

I've no problem with the principle you propose, only with the veracity of the source document from which it is derived.

The 'politics' exhibited in this country around the legislated introduction of E10 (the only ethanol mix available as an alternative to 'straight' petrol) was breathtaking. Queensland sugarcane farmers (read National Party voters - the then Government coalition partners on whom the Liberals depended for their majority), allied with Liberal business interests (read subsidy recipients) carried the day.

Local car manufacturers - Ford, GM Holden, Toyota and Mitsubishi principally - initially voiced major concerns re unsuitability for their engines/fuel systems, particularly in respect of the older (but still common) variants of their cars. Strangely, most of this vocal resistance quickly went away! Not that the local vehicle manufacturers would have in any way been influenced by the dollar value of government support/protection - not much!

The end result is that much of what appears as community information needs to be interpreted against the political/fiscal issues on which the major decisions are made. That includes the referenced document.

My concern is that too many people assume if the government is saying E5/E10/Ewhatever is OK in specific vehicles than all is well. Of course the 4 cents a litre price reduction pulls people in - why wouldn't it when family budgets have to be balanced. Government still collects the excise on each litre sold.

Hence my "I fear this is bound to be a confounding and confusing area for some time to come" comment.

Rob has closely captured my position on this with his interpretation regarding servicing.

I do know from experience - an accidental refueling of our Mazda Tribute with 3/4s of a tank of E10 on a touring trip - that performance was very evidently depreciated and that fuel consumption jumped appreciably. Discussing this with Mazda service technicians on our return, they confirmed our experience was consistent with experiments they had done with their fleet vehicles. They will not use E10 in Mazdas they run. Nor will I, now will I in my B. At least for so long as I have a choice in available fuels. That, of course, goes to the heart of my cynicism on this subject.

On the other hand I have been somewhat encouraged by comments some of our American friends have made on the subject in the past. If I remember correctly, there are States where E10 is the norm and in that part of the world they have come to terms with the inevitability through system overhauls and servicing practices. In the end that may be the only option we will have.

Regards, and wishes for a Happy New Year to all from downunder
Roger
Roger T

I recently read that here in North Carolina, it's no longer required to label pumps dispensing E10. So we have no idea if we're pumping it or not!
Rob Edwards

In California it's all that you can buy. It is noticeably less powerful and works great, as a solvent. No one asks the common man his opinion on the subject. In the end it boils down to financial profits and losses and we're not the ones who are profiting. RAY
rjm RAY

I am seeing a little bit of a movement the other way here in Wisconsin. New gas stations are putting in a separate pump for non ethanol regular gasoline. (private dealers) It costs 10 to 12 cents more, but they even are putting it on their signs that they sell non ethanol.

Many people know that you get better gas mileage and use it over the 10%.

It has been fairly easy to find premium without ethanol. Everyone looks at me like I am crazy when I fill my B up with premium, but at 20 cents a gallon more, the 2.50 more it runs me for a tank is worth the octane.

Of course there is also a movement by the corn farmers to require E15, that would make a bigger set of issues.
BEC Cunha

So what can we do to offset/prevent any problems? I just saw something on TV that indicated that the Feds are going to increase the amount of ethanol at US pumps to 15%. Don't think I have seen a single station in CT with non-ethanol choices.

Pat
Patrick Callan

This thread was discussed between 23/12/2009 and 02/01/2010

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