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MG MGB Technical - Help with head work?
| I have a 1970 mgb. I had to pull head due to burnt number 3 exh valve. Since i have the head off i need to know what i can do to the head. Can i put larger vavles in the head? and where can i get them at? What is some porting work i can do? ANy modification that someone has done to there mgb heads please offer your opions and what was done? thanks |
| matt kaser |
| This is an area where book can and have been written. Larger valves on their own will lose you power unless they are fitted and accompanied by complimentary modifications to the port shape and seat geometry. All MGB heads are not created equal as for a start I can put my fingers on about 20 different castings over the years. Production tolerance adds hugely to that variation, which in fact is why when done properly there is SO much to gain from just head work. It is without any shadow of doubt the area from which the most increase can come. Starting from the novice perspective means there is a very steep and long learning curve and in truth a need for quite a few heads to work with and ruin. To short cut this you need to have a head done by an expert of take on board the detail work that the expert advises. To this end visit www.peter-burgess.com/page31.html to identify the two books which will provide that information your looking for. The first book is more specific to the MGB as the second caters for many other head designs beyond the B series. Once you have identified the books you need you can usually get these from common book sources. You can also spend some time looking at the heads and engines Pete does and judge for yourself how much you want to do. Rog |
| Roger Parker |
| Matt- Listen to what Roger is telling you. He's built a lot more engines than the vast majority of those of us who've personally built several engines. Oversize valves can be installed only on engines that have professional portwork done, and even then not with a stock camshaft (You'd need a Piper 285 and a lot of other expensive changes to take full advantage of it.). If you want to Do It Yourself, after you've had a good shop press out the old valve guides in preparation for installing three-angle valves and seats along with tapered (bulleted) valve guides, you can go into the ports with a flap sander attached to the end of a drill or, better yet, a Dremel tool, and smooth the existing port contours with #80 Grit then #120 Grit paper. Don't try resculpturing the ports as this is for a well practiced professional to do. Remember, you can remove metal, but you can't put it back. A small mistake will turn your head into a great paperweight. Now replace the airfilters with a set of K&N's and a free-flow exhaust and you should be quite surprised at the results. |
| Steve S. |
| Matt: What you've found is typical of what we find when heads are sent to us at Seven Shop British for our modifications. You ask what can be done to a cylinder head in such condition? The answer is, a great deal! The good news is, when properly modified, a head formerly in this condition will produce performance beyond the belief of the average MG owner. It has to be felt to be believed. As a typical procedure, once we receive the head, it's hot-tanked, glass-bead blasted, magnafluxed and carefully inspected to be certain it's a good core. The head is then surfaced the minimum amount to be certain it's perfectly flat. Guides are then removed and we begin what takes several hours in the port areas removing excess cast iron so the head will flow correctly. As Paul has so wisely stated above, experience as to what must be done on these heads to really get the best from them does not come easily. For one thing, one must not just "hog-out" metal indiscriminately but only in areas which have proved to enhance flow. Once ports are properly cleaned, new manganese-bronze guides are installed and the exhaust seats are cut to receive new chrome-nickel hardened seats. If intakes need to be renewed, they receive seat inserts at this time also. Seats are then blended into the ports and given a modern 3-angle cut by hand. This is a fairly time-consuming process in itself but one which we feel is the most correct way to do the job. New valves are given a similar cut and prepared in other ways for insertion. Guides are reamed and then hand-honed for a perfect fit with each individual valve. Valves are then hand-lapped to each individual seat and stamped with their respective number for correct future identification. Additional work consists of correctly contouring each individual combustion chamber for maximum combustion efficiency and gas flow. All sharp edges are carefully removed by hand and combustion shape is kept uniform by contouring using special templates. Once all this is done, all stud holes are tapped and any found stripped are Heli-coiled. The head is then cleaned immaculately and assembled using all new studs, a new spring set, and any other new valve items such as keepers, collars, etc., which may need renewing. The head is primed, painted, and when the paint is cured, shipped to the customer ready to bolt to the engine. We include new brass exhaust nuts and a competition intake/exhaust manifold gasket as the port work makes this item necessary. (The original gasket at this point will protrude into the intake port face.) Cost for our modification service is $595.00 and the customer pays for shipping both ways. This cost includes all the new items mentioned above so as you can see, it's a very complete and competitively priced service. Turnaround time is 6 working days from the day we receive the head. All heads are insured when shipped and sent UPS ground unless the customer specifies otherwise. The result of all this work is a head which flows approximately 35% better than a factory original head and is visually truly a work of art. It gets better gas mileage than a stock head, runs cooler, and is far more reliable. Such a modified head also forms the "building block" for power in any MGB, because until one instals such a head, performance items such as better carburetion, filters, etc., on the "front" of the combustion cycle have very little effect. By the same token, exhaust system modifications have very little effect until the head is modified, because until this work is done, there's (relatively) not nearly the amount of "exhaust" going out the back. The same general principle holds for camshafts. Such a modified head really allows the stock camshaft to come alive. For other than stock camshafts, such modifications are absolutely required for them to work at all. at least at the performance level for which they've been ground. As stated in the beginning, one has to actually feel the increase in torque from such a head to believe it's possible. As you may have read, from time to time, many of the BBS members for whom we've done heads in the past, have verified the performance gains just stated. In closing, I might once more refer to Paul's excellent statements above in general and in particular, his recommending the books and website of Peter Burgess. Peter's pioneering work in this field has been a source of inspiration for us and his high standards set an example of how these heads should be properly modified. His books on the subject are probably the most informative and interesting of any in current publication. So to summarize, there's a lot that can be done with this head, all of it good, in answer to your questions. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| Mike, these head questions are great for advertising aren't they? |
| AHH 2701 |
| Mike. Paul is Roger Parker and, yes, he gives excellent advise. Les |
| Les Bengtson |
| AHH: Following many comments on the BBS by satisfied customers over the past few years, we usually get several personal e-mails from people who want to learn more about what we do and how we do it. Many are just having problems with their cars and I answer these as completely as I can, whether they are potential customers or not. I answer all of these e-mails on an individual basis and this usually takes several hours a month when you add it all up, not that I'm complaining one bit about this. When a person asks questions as did Matt, it presents an opportunity to give complete information to not only him but everyone who might be interested in what can be done to these heads and how it should be done. It also serves to answer the potential questions of many who see references to "Mike Brown" heads and may want to use our services, thus saving both them and me considerable time. At this point we've done nearly 75 cylinder heads for very nice people on this BBS and based on this following, I suspect others here may be interested as well. If you choose not to use our services or accept what I write about what we've found to be useful in modifying these heads, I have no problem with this whatsoever. Perhaps others feel differently, however, and anything I write in this respect is directed towards their interests and not yours, especially if this information or the way it's presented particularly offends you. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| Les: Paul is indeed Roger Parker and thank you very much for the correction. And my apologies to Roger. Best regards, Mike Brown |
| Mike Brown |
| I had my head done by Mike this summer and can vouch for the excellence of his shops work. Everything described above was done and some... the work shows lots of time and care, arrived in a timely matter and was immaculate. The difference was truly amazing, like night and day. My car truly came alive. Definitly the best mod I've done to my car. I don't think Mike is trying to advertise, his work is pretty well known on this board and speaks for itself, in fact if he hadn't posted I was going to recommend his shop. Peter is also highly recommended as is his book. Check all your options and do your reading, but opening up your head properly will do wonders. Bill 69 B-GT |
| Bill Mertz |
| What about adjustments to your carbs once this free breathing head is reinstalled on the car? Do you need a different set of needles installed? Won't the car run lean if the original needles are used? I believe this topic is touched on in Peter's book. I know this is dependent on many things, including the carbs used, but this is also important to get the most benefit out of the modified head is it not? Mike: Do you recommend changing needles? And if so, how big a change in needles? |
| Mark Jones |
| All I can say is that if somebody hadn't sung Mike Brown's praises on this BBS a few weeks back, I wouldn't have known where to go for what he did for me. Mike took the stock '75 small valve head from my MGB race vintage race car and TRANSFORMED the performance. I've just returned from a race where I was propelled into real competition with familiar cars that I could never touch before. NOTHING else on the car was altered. Not mixture settings, not needles, NOTHING! I have 1000 extra usable, fast reving RPMs that were put to good use. The craftsmanship on the head was superb. The communications between he and I during the process was very reassuring. I'm happy to sing his praises myself and recommend his services to anyone. |
| Kelvin Palmer |
| Bill and Kelvin: Thanks very much for the kind comments. Much as you might enjoy our efforts, it is truly OUR pleasure to have worked for you. Mark: Your question about needle changes is very common as one would think that if the head flows much better, there's a need to richen the needles. This IS the case when heads with SMOG needles installed in the carburetors are modified. It does NOT appear to be the case with carbs which meter fuel for correct power mix prior to modifications. A typical example is the installation of HIF carbs on late 60's/early 70's chrome bumper B's. These are an otherwise EXCELLENT carb but fitted with biased needles and crude throttle plates as were North American models, performance in that state, even with our modified heads is only slightly improved. This is because the mixture is so lean and the throttle plate restricts flow so terribly, there is relatively little fuel admitted, and thus, not much power. If, however, the pistons in the HIF are swapped for the earlier pistons used in the HS 4's (they are interchangeable, by the way) and standard 005 needles for the HS 4 are used, the performance gain is stunning. (The standard HIF piston can be used but to accept these needles, must be modified somewhat. It's far easier just to swap pistons from the earlier carb.) The same holds for using the single ZS 175 carburetor on a special manifold as in Barry Kindig's example. If the stock smog needle is retained, performance suffers. If, however, the stock smog needle is swapped for an early Jaguar needle (I'd have to look it up for the exact number), again, performance gains are outstanding. It's just that with the correct needle, fuel is metered for POWER as opposed to EMISSIONS control. So to sum it up, it appears if one's carburetor(s) meter the proper air/fuel mix prior to our modifications, it will remain proper after the mods. Since our head modifications increase the VOLUME of air/fuel mix available for combustion, if the mix is correct in the beginnng, there's just MORE of it to burn during the power stroke and this accounts for the increase in power from carburetion. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| To Mike Brown at Seven Shop British; Mike, you seem very knowledgeable and experienced. Where is your location? Do you have a website or phone number where I can contact you for future consideration? Please email. thanks. -Brian. |
| Brian Johnson |
| Brian: Thank you for the kind comments. All knowledge we've gained respecting MGB cylinder heads has come from hands-on work with these and their engines, plus the feedback from our many street and racing customers. We're located in Rogue River, Oregon. We're in the process of setting up a website. Some pages are finished but we want it all to be complete before going on line. It should be ready within the next two weeks. I'll put a notice on the BBS when it's ready for access. E-mail address is sevenshop@terragon.com. I will call by telephone at our expense anyone who so requests and leaves their phone number. Best regards, Mike Brown |
| Mike Brown |
| Wow - sounds neat - I just finished putting an early ('65) MGB 1.8 head on my Austin A-55 1500c.c. motor what a pleasing increase in power ! I wish I'd heard of you guys as I had hardend valve seats and etc. installed , wanted to exhaust ports cleaned up like you do but I have seen butcher work done before and didn't want to risk ruining my head . perhaps next time ! . -Nate |
| Nate |
| Hiya, Reading this thread I am a little disappointed to see such blatant advertising.....maybe Matt would like to have a go himself at 'tweaking' a cylinder head? I thought the idea of the Board was to seek advice, chat etc? If you want to get in touch and ask any specific questions Matt please do so and I can promise I do not wear a salesman's cap when I respond! Peter Burgess |
| Peter Burgess |
| Having sought Peter's advise several times in the past on various engine and cylinder head issues, I can say that he speaks the literal truth. He provided the information I requested in a timely fashion and received nothing more than my gratitude for his time. Les |
| Les Bengtson |
| Thanks to one and all: Thank you everyone for the many supporting e-mails and requests for additional information on our services as a result of this series of informative posts. One of the wonderful benefits of forums (fora) such as this is the free exchange of information of all kinds among free-thinking individuals who can take from it what they wish and leave what they don't. From the beginning, our goal at Seven Shop British has been to provide excellent performance for the lowest possible cost...all consistent with the highest possible standards of quality, respect for the customer, and quick turnaround. Because of the many readers of this BBS who've kindly sent us their cylinder heads for modifications, we've been able to completely realize these goals in the past. We'll continue in the future to not only meet these high standards, but to surpass them since we've just now made some investment in state of the art equipment which will further improve the already excellent quality of our workmanship...all while keeping the cost to the customer the same! And, of course, all our work will still carry the 100% warranty against defects in workmanship as in the past. Stay tuned and once again, our deep appreciation for everyone's excellent positive support. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| The subject of advertising is one that has always been accepted as being something that should be contained in the areas away from the text areas of any discussed subject matter. On most of the other boards on this site anyone clearly promoting his own product/company is usually flamed from multiple positions, often with a degree of venom and sometimes abuse. (There are some good examples from the MGF BBS.) Clearly should someone who has benefitted from a given companies product line, and who is not connected with them, can rightly point to the benefits he has received, for the benefit of all. It is not surprising then to see those who do pay for advertising space feel justifiably aggrieved at those who use the members text areas to promote their company and/or products at no expense to themsoelves. The following is an extract from http://www.mgcars.org.uk/ad1.html... "If you would like to advertise your company and its products and services, please complete the following form or email us. We can compile a Web Page or several pages, and link them from one or more of the MG pages. You are welcome to inspect our statistics since April 1996 These adverts will NOT be free. The rates are from £75 per month. The minimum period is 4 months. Larger adverts and full web sites can be hosted here - please ask." Mike I am sory to say that you have laid yourself wide open to this critisism. Rog |
| Roger Parker |
| Who needs a web page when you've got the bbs? Mike, Your experience and comments are much needed; however, Peter is correct about the purpose of this bbs. 1. Your comment... "Thank you everyone for the many supporting e-mails and requests for additional information on our services as a result of this series of informative posts."..... shows that you have used the forum as a sales tool. 2. Your comment.... "One of the wonderful benefits of forums (fora) such as this is the free exchange of information of all kinds among free-thinking individuals who can take from it what they wish and leave what they don't".... is correct in that it states that the bbs is for individuals, not businesses. 3. Your last comment could have done without the sales babble... "From the beginning, our goal at Seven Shop British has been to provide excellent performance for the lowest possible cost...all consistent with the highest possible standards of quality, respect for the customer, and quick turnaround. Because of the many readers of this BBS who've kindly sent us their cylinder heads for modifications, we've been able to completely realize these goals in the past. We'll continue in the future to not only meet these high standards, but to surpass them since we've just now made some investment in state of the art equipment which will further improve the already excellent quality of our workmanship...all while keeping the cost to the customer the same! And, of course, all our work will still carry the 100% warranty against defects in workmanship as in the past. Stay tuned and once again, our deep appreciation for everyone's excellent positive support." If you are sincere about helping, simply leave out the bs and join the fun. |
| Fred Horstmeyer |
| I support Roger and Peter - advice is fine but if you want to broadcast a sales pitch then this is not the place. I also echo Peter's comment - using Peter's book and freely given advice it is perfectly feasible for any amateur to modify a head and get very satisfactory results. |
| Chris at www.octarine-services.fsnet.co.uk |
| Roger, Fred and Chris: Without question these comments respecting your self-created "advertising" rules are of great interest to yourselves but perhaps you could consider this BBS is comprised of several hundred members, most of whom I suspect don't give a hoot about your policing of such fantasy regulations. What these members DO care about is how to get the best performance from their MGB engine, efficiently, reliably and economically. Referring to Matt and his initial post, he is typical of the person with whom we interact in our shop. He was concerned because he had just pulled his head, discovered a burned valve in no. 3 cylinder, and wanted to know what could be done. His questions centered around larger valves, where he could get them, and as a final request, "Any modification that someone has done to their MGB heads, please offer their opinion and what was done." This request is pretty clear. Having modified about 75 MGB cylinder heads alone in our shop over the past few years, I felt eminently qualified to "offer (my) opinion and what was done" in direct response to Matt's request. After reading it, I replied with my post which gave great detail on state-of-the-art modification of the MGB cylinder head, how we do it, what it costs, and time frame for shipping along with other details. As a result of all this information, Matt (along with anyone else who read that post) now had several interesting options. He could have chosen to send us the head for our work. He now knew the cost for this with us, and armed with this figure, he could shop locally or anyplace else for the same work for a better price. He was now technically extremely informed and could use this information at his leisure when visiting local machine shops or shopping elsewhere for work done. All this information was for Matt, or any of the other hundreds of members here, educational and empowering. It gave him significant options and choices he didn't have before reading it. In sum, it truly answered in complete detail Matt's request to "please offer their opinion and what was done" and Matt didn't have to wait and buy any books to get this. My question for you three is this and to the point. Other than some references to Peter Burgess' excellent books on the subject, some vague warnings about the perils of DIY head work, and irrelevant carping about me, what do YOU have to offer to empower Matt (or any of the other hundreds of members) respecting his cylinder head problems? Once more, any post I might make on this BBS is directed towards people who can use it for it's value to THEM. Whether or not it comports with the fantasy notions of three self-appointed "thought" or "policy police" who would enjoy limiting the knowledge of the other several hundred members in any way is of no importance to my mind whatever. If my posts annoy you, I humbly suggest you don't read them. Others seem to enjoy them and take from them what they want or need and I enjoy conversing with those who enjoy the same. It's called freedom. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| Mike, you are a very important person and no one should tell you what to do. Paying for advertising is for losers. |
| Nate |
| Well I am disappointed to see this thread go into the dumps.. Those of you who have watched this BBS for any length of time would realize what was being said, and the people who are saying it. Often there are parts/cars for sale listed, most will comment that this is not the place. Not often have I seen a commercial concern using this BBS for what could be (and in my opinion is) advertising. Responses and suggestions are one thing, but detailed explainations of service provided and business philosophy in my mind is pretty clear. I would have thought that the endorsements and happy customers would have been enough. Be thankful that this BBS is here and available to all for NOTHING. Try finding another car BBS as good as this one. My opinion for what it is worth and costs you to read. Saftey Fast Ron |
| Ron Smith |
| I almost hate to jump in here, but Mike wrote about Matt and others being "extremely informed and could use this information at his leisure when visiting local machine shops or shopping elsewhere for work done. All this information was for Matt, or any of the other hundreds of members here, educational and empowering." Mike left out the important information regarding how and what to grind out of the ports, thats the information to really empower; without that how can someone know how to do it themselves or shop other machine shops? Come on, Mike, we've all heard about the great work you've done but your postings here are ads. I'd hate for you to lose any respect due to this silliness. If you would have written "A, B, and C can be done [by whoever] to an MGB head and you get D% power increase", then great, that's helpful information, only. When you write "A, B, and 'vague description of a critical portion of work' can be done by our shop and you get D% power increase for $X in Y turnaround time" ... put it in a classified, they're free. Then Nate won't think you're a loser. |
| Wade Keene |
| Guys, thanks for all your comments. I've enjoyed them all. Wade, you just can't tell anyone what to grind out of the ports on a BBS thread even if I felt like it. It takes a lot of grinding and flow-testing to find out for yourself and then someone else will probably just come along and argue about it anyway. Also Wade, in case you thought otherwise, this isn't something you do with a piece of sandpaper taped to a nail and chucked into an electric drill. Removing serious amounts of cast iron from a cylinder head to make it flow properly takes some heavy duty grinders and bits. It's doubtful most who don't do it on a day-in/day-out basis will have even one piece of the right equipment. I know no automotive machine shops I've ever seen have what it takes for this. So for the average person to think they're going to do any of this the right way by reading a book or some BBS posts is pretty much out of the question. Like it or not, to get real performance from a head, they're going to need either some high-tech help or a long, expensive, painful, learning curve. That's the way it is friend. Anyway, I've written all I care to on this subject except to say once more, if anyone doesn't like what I've posted, they can ignore it. There are plenty of others who seem interested and to let them have their information probably won't hurt yours. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| On the issue of reshaping ports I have to support Mike on this one. There's a lot of people who do headwork out there, but the head of the B Series engine is special. This is no V8 Chevy or Ford head we're talking about here! Siamesed ports are an antiquity in this modern era of separate ports, and there's very few people out there who truly understand the subtleties of them. Simply taking a flap sander and polishing the existing contours to get the most out of the original design is one thing, but serious work on these heads requires specialized knowledge. Just reducing the valve guide bosses is very tricky due to the fact that the difference between removing just enough metal and breaking into the cooling passages is very, very small. If you don't have genuine blueprints of the ports that include all of the dimensions, radiuses, etc., then you're taking on a big gamble. Without a Flowbench to suck cool air in through the intake ports and blow combustion temperature air out of the exhaust ports and the probes necessary to detect and measure turbulence in different sections of the ports, plus the knowledge of what to do to correct the problem, then you're in over your head. A flowbench is a necessity for getting the flow rates of the ports to match. In short, as much as we pride ourselves on doing everything on our cars ourselves, this is a job for a professional with the specialized knowledge and equipment like Mike Brown or Peter Burgess. After all, you wouldn't try to overbore your cylinders in your garage with a file, would you? |
| Steve S. |
| Mike, >>>Without question these comments respecting your self-created "advertising" rules are of great interest to yourselves but perhaps you could consider this BBS is comprised of several hundred members, most of whom I suspect don't give a hoot about your policing of such fantasy regulations<<< What a shame you clearly cant see the point. I gain much from this site as do thousands of others, but the site is not a charity and has running costs which have to be met, otherwise the site will no longer exist. My concern is quite simply that the revenue from advertising helps maintain this site and to errode this principle is as effective as developing cancer as it will ultimately lead to the same conclusion. I have no monetary or material gains from the posts I have made on this site and have no personal grievance against any individual or business. We have a free forum to which I have contrbuted hundreds of thousands of words over many years, together with much more through other free mediums over a longer period. I intend to continue using this platform, but want to see it have a secure future for us all. Clearly, if as seems obvious, my simple observation is the one to cause iritation, then I hope that the simple explanation of my position clarifies that. Rog |
| Roger Parker |
| Mike, Sorry to take so long to reply to your criticism of my comments. In your pique you have failed to carefully read my post. I first stated that the bbs needs you and people with your experience. My negative comments were directed at the blantant advertising which follows your helpful comments. As far as this thread going sour, I must say that I find the comments of Steve S. very interesting and helpful. I believe that his is the answer that is relevent here and perhaps the rancor of this thread brought this aspect to my (and hundreds of others) attention. In the words of the immortal Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along". |
| Fred Horstmeyer |
| My final words... Steve, you've got the complete picture! Roger, I agree 100% with your concerns. Fred, I'm sure we can. Best regards, Mike Brown, Seven Shop British |
| Mike Brown |
| Ok thanks guys for the reponses. I have a better understanding of head porting. I still need to know if i can fit the 72-74 valves and what is needed. I am getting alot of different answers? I have plenty of time cause i plan on doing alot of research before hand. On a second note, i know advertisement should stay in it place but i did get some knowledge from mike but it turned out that it would be almost $800 to ship the head back and forth and do the work.I appreciated knowing about him but he did not offer to much general knowledge on head work to me(what i can do personally). thanks guys |
| matt Kaser |
| Matt, You can get all the parts needed from Victoria British. If you don't have their catalog you can call 1-800-255-0088 and order one. After getting the parts you will need a machine shop to install the seats and guides. You can hand lap valves but if the seats are in pretty bad shape the hand lapping is pretty much a waste of time. And yes the bigger valves and seats can be installed, again it has to be done in a machine shop. I did install some guides at home in a TR4 head some years ago. My son made some drivers in his machine shop course. I used them and a hammer to drive out the old guides and drive in the new ones. It would be better to use a hydraulic press for the job. But if you have to pay someone to make the proper drivers you may as well pay the automotive machinist to do it. See the thread on DIY HEADS for some ideas on what one or two MG owners have done to improve their heads. So there isn't a lot that you can do without some special machine tools. I assume you know you can buy a valve spring compresser for $40 or $50 at Sears to remove and replace valves. Hope this information helps. Clifton |
| Clifton Gordon |
This thread was discussed between 21/10/2001 and 28/10/2001
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