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MG MGB Technical - Home painting

I want to repaint my B after I have finished the body work. Friends have told me that it is often more economical to get it done by a professional but I want to do the jib myself.
What it the most suitable paint type for a home restorer to use?
P I Barnes

Cellulose, which was used on the original cars. However there is a lot of experience required and a reasonable amount of kit. However if you can master the skills required then it is certainly cheaper that a professional job and as you have full control of the process and final finish you could get a better result as well provided of course that you are prepared to put in the effort.
Iain MacKintosh

Best bet is an acrylic enamel such as Dupont Centari or PPG Delstar. Easy to use and holds up very well. This can also be sprayed with a hardener added for better gloss but when the hardener is added to the paint it becomes very toxic. Sand with 1500 or 2000 grit paper to remove dirt specs and small runs and buff with a good compound. Paint and thinner will run around $200.

Your paint supply house can recommend the best primers and sealers to use under the paint you chose. Plan on another $200 to $250.

If you make a big mistake, let it dry for a day, sand out the boo boo's and respray. If you have a chance, take a body shop course at a local technical school.
John H

John H has got it about right,altho if you are like most beginers, you will spray it dry/orange peely to avoid runs.Therfore wet sanding with 1500 will not cut much and your arm will fall off.
wc wolcott

Got to agree with the acrylic enamel. Have the paint shop make sure you have a respirator that matches the material you are spraying. They have 1/2 face masks that are inexpensive. USE IT. Also get a set of paper or tyvek coveralls.

Acrylic enamel is the easiest to fix the boo boo's.

Biggest issue I ran into was silicon. Very difficult in today's world not having it somewhere on the car. Even the silicon cleaners do not get every bit off. I had to add an orange peel reducing agent.
Bruce Cunha

Seems that what you call acrylic lacquer over the pond is very similar to what we used to call cellulose but this material is very difficult to obtain for environmental reasons.

There is an awful lot more to this than just throwing on the paint and this under processes are the all important vital steps to a good finish. Block flatting, guide coats and so on are essential and the aim of course is to get as near a mirror finish as possible from the final coat. The suggestion of an evening class is a very good one and there is much on the web as well but none of this is any substitute for playing around with an old panel.

Someone mentioned silicon which can be a nightmare although it should rub out within a couple of coats maximum. To minimise this there are certain things which should be banned in the spray area or in the garage as a car is being built up and that includes WD40, Waxoyl and the likes and believe it or not after shave lotions !! Panel wipe reduces this greatly but gasoline believe it or not is initially quite effective on the bare panels.

This is a whole new experience for you, the donkey work is VERY time consuming but the final result should be very rewarding.
Iain MacKintosh

Over here you can get water based colour coats for clear over base type application. I am thinking of using it soon. The problem is that most of the clear coats to go over the top are as nasty as ever. I have found a single part clear coat made by UPOL that is available in both a tin for spary gun use and a rattle can. I may use it as it can't be too nasty if they have the rattle can version on the shelf in Halfords.

If you are interested in technique there are some sites you may want to visit:

http://www.theautoist.com/body_repairs.htm

http://www.camaros.net/techref/articles/JD%20Paint%20Article.pdf

http://www.mckennasgarage.com/xke/index.htm

They don't all agree with each other in the detail but once you have read them all you will be able to form your own opinion.
David Witham

Bruce, the best silicon remover we have found is a heavy concentration of Dawn diswashing liquid.
If you get a lot of orange peel start sanding with 800 grit than go to 1500, but be carefull, paint is thinner than you think.
John H

I have seen cars sprayed at home with cellulose that looked as good as a pro job. It's not something that suits me but you may find you quickly aquire the skill, so give it a go.
Stan Best

Thanks guys. I've a few old penels lying around that I will practice on. I can't pain the car for a few months yet due to it being too cold so will have plenty of time to get the body in perfect condition.
Thanks for all the help
P I Barnes

Acrylic lacquer is the easiest to paint with and drys in minutes, it drys dull and must be rubbed out. The down sides are it is very brittle and if put on too heavily will crack right down to the metal in one to two years and even done correctly will eventualy spider web. It does produce a very good finish but can be equaled with todays acrylic enamels. Years ago it was used by both manufactures and custom car painters because of the mirror finish. Todays acrylic enamels and urathanes equal it in finish quality and stand up much better over time.
Painting a car is like painting your house, its the preperation thats 90% of the work, painting is the easy part.
John H

What is the story, pro and con, regarding coach painting with specialized paint (I have seen the brand Tekaloid mentioned) applied by hand with brushes? You may see the occasional magazine article where the DIY owner claims to have brush painted the vehicle and it looks pretty darn good in the photos. This would seem like the ideal low-tech, DIY method of vehicle painting, but there seems to be little information out there about it. Any thoughts on this?
James Novak

James, I haven't seen the particular brand you mentioned but in theory if you put enough paint on and sanded out the bush marks and rubbed it out it might be possible. I would guess you would need to use old fashioned Alklid enamel that drys very slowly so you could get it to flow out most of the brush marks.Any modern paint drys to fast. I can't imagine anyone wanting to try this except just to prove it could be done.
The most low tech method I could think of would be to put on many coats using lots and lots of spray cans, than sand and rub out.
Might as well sand it and send it to Macco for $300
John H

I tried to get Acrylic Lacquer, got a blank stare, and was told it was discontinued some years ago and is now illegal to sell. Maybe it depends in which State you live (I'm in CT) , but I think the Feds may have locked it down. The body shop guys had no clue where to get it or if it was even made anymore, at least by Dupont. Probably don't want to use it anyway due to the inevitable cracking down the road. If you use two-pack paint use a positive-pressure air fed mask like a Hobby-Air. The hardener has a form of cyanide in it which is not good for you to breathe.
Sam

We painted my B last summer with base/clear- just like the factory jobs today. The pro-shop mixed the "color" as sprayable- no mixing, no muss,no fuss. This coat goes on easily-the key importance is an even color. 30 minutes later apply the clear coat which mixes 2 to 1. We breathed through a standard resperator in a home made paint booth with exhaust fan. No problem
jim

Jim, I have done the same as you. They tell you to wear an air supplied helmet because while the reporators work, there is no way to tell when they become saturated with the isocynate, as unlike the paint it has no smell. I replace my 3M disposable resperator every ten hours, its cheap insurance.

A word of warning, if you happen to be alergic to isocynates, even with a supplied air helmet, you may very well end up in a hospital or worse. It will also go through your skin, this is nasty stuff and the warnings should not be taken lightly.
John H

Absolutely, they should not be taken lightly but this material SHOULD NOT be used at home under any circumstances. Full air fed respirators designed for the purpose should be used and this equipmant requires its own feed of clean air.

The acrylic lacquer or cellulose based materials are the only way to go for the home finish certainly if you want to match or even better a body shop job. With experience you can get a mirror finish straight off the gun but you would always denib with Superfine paper and then preferably machine polish with Farecla.
Any paint will crack if the panels underneath are not solid or over a joint but the material will NOT craze or spider web. Crazing happens as a result of improper preparation or by using two different paint systems. The undercoats are more vital than the top and there is no doubt that a bare metal respray is far preferable. If some panels still have previous systems unstripped then it is essential to use an isolator to prevent future problems. Use one manufacturers basecoats,. topcoats and thinners and work scrupulously clean not painting below 55 degrees F and you shouldn't have any problems with the finish or in future years.
Iain MacKintosh

Been paintng for 30+ years. Listen to John.
wc wolcott

Been paintng for 30+ years. Listen to John he is on the money. Lacquer produces a fine finish,it won't last. I did a full repaint in Ditzler red label lac 5 years ago on a TR6.I never use lac anymore, but at the price of reds nowdays,I cheaped it out and used my NOS signal red gallon.Absolutly stunning after color sanding and polishing.You could actually read the paper in the reflection. After the 3rd yr it developed hairline cracks,I was so dissapointed that I parked it in the barn and didn't look at it for 2 years,then sold it to someone who wasn,t as fussy as I.Lacquer has its good points, but not enough to offset the bad ones,of which there are many.
To put it simply its Antique tech, like milk paint.
wc wolcott

I don't know what paints you are using over that side of the pond but certainly the cellulose available here is very stable and good for the life of a vehicle. Cracking or crazing is unheard of unless either preparation or the under surface is not properly prepared. Materials such as ICI Belco, A&W and PPG are long life and can be guaranteed to last indrfinitely. The labour is the worst part of the job and you ablolutely must get the material right.
Iain MacKintosh

Iain, There may confusion in terminology. It used to be that what you call cellulose was called acrylic lacquer over here. Since you list PPG as one of the paints available in the UK, which PPG product line are you refering too. Over here PPG's trade name for there acrylic enamel is called Delstar, Duponts is Centari. The old Dupont lacquer was called Lucite. What do you have in the UK.
John H

John, I think there is confusion in terminology. I've just gone out to the garage and had a look on my paint tins and found ICI Belco and A&W cans both of which were marked Cellulose Enamel. I couldn't unfortunately find a PPG can but I have a feel;ing that PPG no longer produce cellulose in the UK. At least we are in agreement that it is enamel we are talking about.
Iain MacKintosh

Cellulose Enamel in the US is called Acrylic Enamel. Another case of two countries seperated by a common language. We seem to agree, we just didn't know it.
John H

I would add one item.

Talk to a reputable automotive paint person and get the scoop on what may be going away.

Dupont Centari is getting more difficult to get. I hate using one paint, just to go back a few years later and find it is not available.

Also, we all need to keep on the regulators. As an earlier post mentioned. In the U.S. the EPA is seriously looking at making home auto painting a no no. They will do this by restricting sales of the paint. They made this clear in a speach given at the SEMA convention in Los Vegas a couple of months back.

Of course the auto industry backs this, as it would mean more business for the professional shops.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce, I knew this had come up before but hadn't heard about the latest round in Vegas. Hopefully the auto aftermarket will be able to shoot it down again. The number of people who paint at home is a mear drop in the paint bucket. The really sad part is that they worry about this tiny amount yet give the auto manufactures wavers on the discharge permits of their plant paint systems.
I think the chemistry will continue to change with water born paints becoming more common. I had also read an artical that GE was working on a spray on Lexan coating to replace paint.
Best bet is when you paint your car, keep a quart or more sealed tight so you can repair damage if necessary. I like to keep a couple of pint cans filled to the rim after I am finished. I have ten year old paint that has remained useable.
John H

PI when you go to your jobber ask for the spec sheet on the particular paint you are going to use. they are free and they leave no doubt as what primers,sealers,reducers and hardeners, air pressure and viscosity ratios to mix the paint, to use. Not all counter helpers are well versed on the products. Also get a cheap final filter to put on your air regulator that attaches to you gun,it catches the water that forms in the line. But most of all get the right attitude,if you screw up its not the end of the world,its just more quality time with your sand paper.
wc wolcott

I plan to paint my midget next Spring. I've never painted a car, so if I go to NAPA (or similar) what do I ask for if I want an easy paint that will dry with a shine. I was leaning toward laquer as I've used it in rattle can form and it dried to a mirror finish.
Kemper

I just painted my '67 GT in September 2005, and I used PPG Duracryl acylic lacquer. This stuff is still available to hobbyists, although it has been outlawed for use by professional shops in the US. Your local paint store may not be able to supply it, but you can purchase from Tri-City Paint. See http://www.autocolorlibrary.com

I used lacquer because I am afraid of the isocyanate hardener used with urethanes and optionally with acylic enamels. You will hear hobbyists and even some pros say that they have used hardeners without proper protection. You also hear smokers and alcoholics say they feel fine after years of exposure to their vices. If you look further, you will hear more stories of people who are dead or disabled from these things.

Proper protection from isocyanate requires a full impermeable body suit to keep the paint off your skin, and a forced air supply to keep it out of your lungs. Protection from lacquer requires only a charcoal respirator and normal, but complete, clothing.

I have sprayed both, and lacquer is much easier and more pleasant to work with. It's very forgiving when you spray, and easy to fix if you make a mistake. It is brittle when dry, and it's not as tough as paint or clear coat with isocyanate hardener. It is also rather expensive since it is made in smaller batches nowadays. If you decide to use lacquer, make sure you get the required thinner for the brand of paint and ambient temperature of your shop. -G.
Glenn G

Kemper

NAPA may be ok, but find a shop where they will work with you. As listed here, you need to go over the spec sheet to assure you have compatable materials from filler, to primer to paint.

One point that has not been discussed here is if you are using a standard spray gun or an HVLP unit. I fould out that they do not necessarily work the same.

The HVLP required a slower spray speed
Bruce Cunha

Any advise on which spray gun to use? I'll be buying one fairly soon, so which is the best for a novice?
P I Barnes

I use DeVilbiss, quite simply the best and as used by professionals. I have a JGA and a JGS gun one of which I picked up virtually new in a junk shop and the other was given to me. At least with these I I can't get a good finish I know its my fault. Neither are HVLP and I think you may have problems getting a suitable compressor for home use. My unit is a 2.5 HP and delivers about 10cfm. I normally spray with a gun pressure aon 5opsi although for touch up you can lower this a bit. The other essential piece of kit is a velocity cup. This enables you to mix paint and thinners to an exact consistency time after time and thus eliminates paint viscosity as a possible cause of a poor finish.

I agree with Bruce that this material is becoming more difficult to obtain so try to select a manufacturer who does not plan to drop it in the forseeable future. That's why I went the ICI route on my roadster and still have several litres of colour sealed for future use. My GT is Ault & Wyborg paint which is not out of production, nevertheless I have a considerable quantity of material. Interestingly though colours will match very well across manufacturers but it is best not to do it if possible.
Iain MacKintosh

Hello,

I agree with acrylic enamel + hardener. I repainted two cars with the sherwin-williams Western refinishing acrylic enamel. It yields to a nice glossy finish and it was easy to apply. Use a respiratory mask to avoid toxic fumes. I have done it outside(too cold for that time of the year in B.C., you need at least 25C) to have proper ventilation and see what I do.
The western have also ready made color like a Jag. racing green which is almost one of the MG-racing green.

If your are not toutchy with color go to Canadian Tire as they sell that paint under name Dupli-color. But you have a limited choice of colors and they do not know what is a hardener, that you could get at your S-W car paint merchant.

Cheers,

JGC
Jean Guy Catford

I'm cheap. No other way to say it.

I investigated someone painting my car, but wanted it done in my garage as it was a shell on a rack. No one would do it. At there shop was over $1200!

I went to MENARDS, a handyman store and bought a $40 HVLP spray gun. Went to the local supplier and bought Omni brand paint, hardner, epoxy primer (2 part), fisheye eliminator and surfacer paint. Opened the garage doors (3 car garage), practiced for a bit on scrap and painted it. First paint job. Just followed all the instructions that came with the paint. Did have a pretty good respritor (sp) though.

Outcome: Pretty darn good for a daily driver. Took a lot of effort with 1000 - 1200 grit paper to make a nice fihish, but I get compliments whereever I go. I know where ALL the flaws are, but I'm sure everyone does on their own work.

In retrospect: I would have bought a better gun to do it. The money I saved from a "pro" job would have easily offset the price of a better gun.

Tom
tom

Sounds like we have similar views Tom. I don't mind spending time on flatting the paint. One thing I do have is lots of time.
Thanks for all the advise. I'll let you know how I get on when I paint it in the spring
P I Barnes

Kemper, use acrylic enamel, it will dry with a good gloss, lacquer will dry dull. You can get a very good result with the acrylic enamel without adding the isocynate hardner.
Lacquer must be rubbed out. You may have to rub the enamel if you get a lot of orange peel. The amount of orange peel depends on weather, paint mix, and how good you are with a spray gun. Ideally you want to spray as wet a coat as possible without running the paint. Practice on something first.You will get a much longer lasting paint job with the enamel than the lacquer.
John H

Great source for all autobody related topics is www.autobodystore.com
Len has a great instructional video and the folks on the message board there are first rate.
Regards,
Doug
D Sjostrom

One more thing to read up on and that is sanding and buffing out paint. Here are a couple of goot sites. The second one has some good pictures

http://www.automotivedetailing.com/assets/articles_htm/hgh_spd_buffing.htm

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/926/index.html

A decent multispeed buffer is not all that expensive, and with the new buffing compounds, can help save a lot of sanding.
Bruce Cunha

This thread was discussed between 21/12/2005 and 28/12/2005

MG MGB Technical index

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