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MG MGB Technical - K & N filters

Oh boy, just when we think we've found something good.

http://forum.mnautox.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3759

Ok, this is from the technical thread on my autox club website.

Ok, I admit, this is just another shameless plug.
But if something new comes along that really works, why not take a look?
Hmmmmmm?

Do we stop at pointless/distributorless ignition, radial tires, long life coolants, electronic fuel injections, and so on?
Of course not!

Sf
Dwight
Dwight

I used to have an unretouched, "unvarnished", straight from the filter removal photo of the mouth of one of my SUs after a 14 months since its previous cleaning. It showed the accumulation of dust and dirt that got through (or more correctly, did not get thru) the, by then, 10 yr old K&Ns on my GT since the previous cleaning and reo-oiling of the gauze. Next time I clean 'em up, I will do "the grease test" just for the hell of it, it should be interesting to see what happens a year later. I will put that old photo on my new site at http://www.cibolas7.net/27301.html .

As for Amsoil's air filters, all I can say is the obvious, that, just like WD-40, K&Ns are subject to competition and improvements others may have come up with via new technology "improving the breed" in the last 50+ yrs since they became some sort of standard, whether for lubricants, filtering media, or anything else. Things change, probably the reason we don't use today what our grandfathers did because they had no better.
Bob Muenchausen

According to this test, foam is foam regardless of who makes it, same with paper and gauze filters. The writer's opinion is that for general use paper filters give better filteration. I used to use foam filters when my son raced dirt bikes and go karts, I agree they are a pain to clean.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest3.htm

FWIW, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

You may be right too, Clifton, I think they both say that altho paper is the clear winner on micron sizes of particles filtered, it is also the loser for air flow. I just wonder if the Amsoil falls closer to paper for filtration and closer to K&N for air flow. It would be interesting to see some up to date specs for all.
Bob Muenchausen

I gave up using foam filters when a carb backfire turned one into black goo.
I know in the HVAC industry, there is no perfect filter. You have to weigh the benefits of filtration versus maintenance. What works well for one does not work well for all.
Jeff Schlemmer

Stick with K+Ns but reoil them more often than the 50,000 miles they recommend.there is a lot of misinformation out there.
Stan Best

Stan is correct about reoiling. I have had what I consider very good luck with my set of K&Ns, bought back in 1989, over the years by cleaning them once a year and then reoiling them at the same time. They seem to keep the carbs clean and their own longevity seems to depend on it, I think. Also, 50K miles seems like an awfully long time between cleanings/reoilings as mine used here in Dirtville seem to collect plenty of crud in just the space of a year and a few thousand miles on the road.
Bob Muenchausen

I have K&Ns on my roadster and standard filters on the GT and the above is a bit disturbing. However as we don't run up huge mileages and probably most of us operate in fairly clean conditions it may not be that important. I have to say however that there is no noticable difference in performance between my two almost identical motors so I'm not convinced of the worth of these. In addition the intake roar is quite excessive compared to the standard set up and this gets a bit waring at times. Are there any real benefits left or is this just another piece of pointless kit.
Iain MacKintosh

Peter Burgess quotes his dyno measurements for bhp at the wheels as:

std MGB 1.625 inlets max 65bhp
std MGB 1.625 inlets, K&Ns 68bhp

"Note: Cannot feel the difference, but a good starting point for further modificationsplus don't have to buy new filters again!"

So, in terms of bhp/£ K&Ns seem to compare favourably with other modifications, but you're not getting a turbocharger.
Steve Postins

I'm not convinced on frequent cleaning. The accumulated dirt becomes part of the fitler medium, so the dirtier they are, the more they filter out. Of course, they also become more restrictive and at some point would be no better than a new paper filter.....
Rob Edwards

They may not need frequent cleaning, K&N says something like 35K miles. I clean mine every year because they LOOK as dirty as any paper element filter I chuck at 12K miles, and the cleaning solution certainly gets black enough from the crud removed and there is plenty of sediment in bottom of the bucket after a year's use.

Even if my frequency is out of line, the photo I show on my site seems to indicate that frequent cleaning apparently does little harm.
Bob Muenchausen

A year or so there was a web site that tested air filters and compared them on a Miata roadster. Its probably still out there and can be found by a G00gle search. The paper filters varied somewhat but generally had excellent air flow and cleaning capability. The K&N filters actually had similiar or less flow when they were clean and did not catch as much of the fine stuff. Once they got dirtier, the K&N filtered better than when clean and didn't lose as much flow capacity as the paper filters when they got dirty.

Apparent moral: If you change your filters before they get too dirty, stay with a hi quality paper. If you want to install and forget and go with less flow, go with the K&N.

Barry
Barry Parkinson

I searched and found the testing of air filters. The results are a little different than I recalled.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm

Barry
Barry Parkinson

Isn't it the coopercans that are the main restriction for the airflow? I have run my car with "original" paper-filter and K&N-filter with and without the coopercans. When running without coopercans my car feels a lot more powerful at hich revs, regardless of filters.
Jesper Akesson

No one has mentioned this so far, but I noticed a difference in the sound when I installed a K&N filter on my Boxster. Getting down on the gas seems to be a little louder in the engine bay, not much, but enough to make me feel better about the money and time I invested installing the bugger. I never saw a difference in the gas mileage, or power, and that is what I was looking for.
We use them on all of our Harleys as soon as we get a new one. New Harley, new pipes and new K&N. All the riders swear by them!
Cleve

AS explained to me, The K&N pattent has run out and now several manufacturers are making similar units.

I have always had good luck with the K&N's in non-MG cars. (I don't own an MG right now) Marginally better milage and maybe slightly better performance although that could be just looking for the improvement. I cleaned mine every six months to keep up with Colorado's dusty/windy climate. Judging by the crud that came off, they needed it!

One major word of caution however for those of you who want to put them on new cars Be extremely careful as even brand-new-out-of-the-box units may destroy your mass airflow sensors. These sensors are very sensitive and will go off the deep end from the oil in the air. A costly lesson I learned on my S-10 Blazer.
TJ Vessely

You can retain a bit of the LOOK of OE of the Cooper's cans when using the K&Ns by simply removing sheet metal backing plate for the cans (the part that fits between the rear side of the filter and the cast mounting plate/airhorn, and then using only the main, outer part of the cans as end caps to seal the filters. I would guess this might take some slight adjustment for mounting, but it does allow more air into the filters than just the snorkels do, and maintains functionality of the main part of the cans as end caps. I saw this done once and had to smile ~ I figured it was for those who aren't quite ready to give up that OE look at the carbs yet.
Bob Muenchausen

Ok, at the risk of being removed from this board myself, I ask that Dwight PLEASE be reinstated as a member? He promised not to plug his endeavor any longer, if he can once again be allowed to offer his input.

I think his points were valid that Amsoil has a good new technology - at least worth looking at. They have no application for MGs yet, but maybe some day they will, and they might be a good investment?
Thanks, Jeff
Jeff Schlemmer

I'm baa--aack!
Well now that is settled.
No more posting with a phony name.
LOL.

As far as 'shameless plugs'
OK, no more.

Are technical discussions OK?

Or isn't anyone interested in 'new' thiings?

Safety Fast
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Now just to set the record straight.

The new Amsoil EaO and EaA filters are NOT foam, are NOT wet cotton gauze, or cellulose/paper.

Unfortunately, not available yet for the cars we love.
Oh, the oil filter is.
Not only do they outperform filtering capacity, but continue to flow air and oil at extremely good rates.

And I sell tires to our club mmebers for COST!

And anyone can buy at the same cost as I get for Amsoil!

Just settin' the record straight!

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

I have two vehicles with K&N's.
Our '97 S10 4.3 V6, and my '77 'B' .

The '97 Camry has the 'foam' Amsoil air filter.

The oil filter that fell off my MGB on the way home from a club meeting, was a, Pro-Tec.
It is the correct filter, and had been on for several months.
Including Rendezvous, in Grand Rapids MN,
[where we had a high speed event/autox where I ran to car to 90 mph]
several auto cross events, and many miles.

I am through using cheap filters!

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Dwight,
Do you think they are going to have these for MGBs any time soon? You seem like a very nice fellow, ordering tires and all for your fellow club members. We need more people like you in the hobby.
Too bad Moss and VB don't have the same attitude!
Keep up the good work!
Eric
74.5 MGBGT---rubber bumpers and twin SUs
Eric

Eric,

I also have a 74.5 which I love but doesn't it drive you crazy trying to order parts? Everything is *-74.5 and 74.5 - *. So, if you have a 74.5, which part is correct? I always try to figure if the part is more like a dual carb car or a rubber bumper car. Sometimes that doesn't always work!

It's too bad it's not more definitive.

Cheers,

Tim
Tim Henderson

Last time I took the K+Ns off after about 4 years ( about 12K miles on my car) I was surprised to find no sign of oil, very dirty and when you held them up to the light lots of pinholes. When I talked to K+N they said leave the dirt it helps filtering I did not like the look of those pinholes and will cleasn and oil more often in future.
Stan Best

You have to love the answer from K & N, "leave the dirt it helps filtering". If their filters are as good as they claim why should they need dirt added to help the filtering? They should suggest that you roll a new filter through some dirt so it's filtering capability would equal a dirty filter for better engine protection.

My 2 cents, Clifton
Clifton Gordon

Tim,
They are neat cars, and something a little odd. I think they sound better than the 75 and up versions. I also have problems with ordering parts, and I tend to order most things for the chrome bumper cars.
It's a hybrid!
Good point Clifton! Maybe they were talking dust, and not dirt. It would be hard to put a lot of dust in the filter to start with. Would the same be true for oil filters? Don't think so!
Eric

I agree with Clifton.

Years ago I was at seminar given to our auto shop class (for H.S. auto shop teachers) on induction systems. During the discussion about filtration, there was an interesting segment of the film they showed us about modern vs. old school (then) filters, meaning paper vs. oil bath and oiled gauze/felt filters.

The part that was interesting was they claimed that in large porosity filters, as the filter filled and got close to needing to be serviced, the particles being sucked to the filter from outside would collide with those already "trapped" by the surface oil and some of "the bottom most" particles would be kicked loose by the collision's energy and allowed into the air stream into the carb. An unintended consequence and probably not as likely to be fatal with a K&N as with TR-3's rather porous wire gauze filters, but I would think still possible.

Altho I think the size of particles let loose would be quite small in the case of a K&N filter, the film made the point that disposable paper elements trapped even these fine particles. If the film's physics were anywhere close to reality, I would question just letting the big chunks collect. Yes, they would provide a filtering maze to obstruct later stuff, but what about the crap on the bottom? And is it subject to being let loose if it is smaller than the porosity of the cotton gauze?

Not wanting to push my luck too far, I chose a long time ago to clean mine once a year, whether the engineers at K&N felt it necessary or not. FWIW
Bob Muenchausen

You know folk's I have driven cars with 'OIl Bath' air filters.
Even Merecedes diesel had them up through 1974 or so.
I wonder how well they worked?
Anyone?

As far as what says;
"Eric, Atlanta
Dwight,
Do you think they are going to have these for MGBs any time soon? You seem like a very nice fellow, ordering tires and all for your fellow club members. We need more people like you in the hobby.
Too bad Moss and VB don't have the same attitude!
Keep up the good work!
Eric
74.5 MGBGT---rubber bumpers and twin SUs"


I have a '77 roadster that had the awful single Storemberg/Zenith, with a catatonic converter, [mispelled on purpose]

My car has a '72 block and heads, big rim-flow stainless steel valves, roller rockers, ported and pllished a bit a a cam, [mild] ceramic coated headers feeding into 2" exhaust with a chamber and a resonator. .040" overbore 8.8 cr, decked block etc. goes good!

As far as my biz goes. I sell at a zero profit margin [to mostly club members], because if I went retail, I would lose market. I charge only for mounting & balancing.
The Amsoil biz I would sign you up as a preferred customer, or dealer, and you get the SAME price I do. And you can order the product directly to your home.
I make about a 2% commission on what you'd buy.
Wow!
He's gonna get rich!

I'm a [mostly] retired auto mechanic, and I like to see things that not only are new, [which Amsoil isn't, it's 32 years old] but actually do what they claim.
Novel idea eh?
I have owned [ since 1964] and worked on LBC's and most cars since 1968 professionally, and am now retired from full time. But did work on a '66 AH 3000 at my son's shop yesterday.
No fuel to the carbs makes for very poor running.
LOL


SF
Dwight

DCM McCullough

Most oil bath filters worked on the principle that the inertia of the particles would be so great that as the air attempted to excute that sharp turn above the oil bath, the particles would continue on straight into the oil trap.

However, one has to wonder if some particles were small enough to be pulled around by the air flow and if so, what size were they in comparison to what was allowable for minimal wear?? If the particle mass were small enough, I can imagine the air flow could overcome inertia and some small particles would never land in the oil bath tar baby.
Bob Muenchausen

Oil bath! When I was a child, my father had a Ferguson tractor with an oil bath air filter. Think of all the dirt that flies when working on a farm and plowing the fields. I guess the folks at Ferguson thought it was a reasonable method for cleaning the air. The tractor lasted a long time and never had an engine job, but then it didn't run at high RPMs.

What about all of these gimmicks that talk about making the air swirl as it leaves the carb? Then there are filters that claim to align the air, so there is no turbulence??? Which one is right?
Eric

Eric,
the swirlers are to mix the air and atomized fuel as it leaves the carb more fully for supposed better and more complete combustion, netting more HP and better Gas Mileage. Filters that "align the air" to combat turbulence would rather interesting to test with some test smoke. I would wonder at how long the air would stay aligned given all the other aspects of physics going on between a dynamic engine, an induction system, and other factors like air density (temps?) and the air's inertia vs. pulsating intake flow??? Any physicists out there? Sounds about as fraught with variables as acoustics.
Bob Muenchausen

Bob,
I agree with you, but unless the turbulence takes place just prior to the ignition, porting variations between intake manifold channels, directional flow pattern distribution, eddy currents, laminar flow and turbulence caused by small obstructions, or wall surface variations, will all have an effect on collective disbursement of atomized fuel particles, resulting in stratification of air fuel mixtures. Maybe not as bad as before, but certainly not like the diagrams suggest. (the reason injectors are placed as close to the combustion chamber as possible)
The same argument for whether or not magnetic fuel alignment devices are effective. True, the fuel may take on alignment properties as it passes through the magnetic field, but as soon as it exits the other side, the molecules go to a lower energy state, which is their preference, and the fuel is basically as it was prior to passing the magnet. Spelled, “Waste Of Money”.

Eric

Donaldson filter Co.
Right in the Twin cities.
MPLS/STP

They are the first manufacturer of synthetic filtration, which is a partner with Amsoil.
But only for HD Industrial applications.
The big deal with Donaldson's is a filter that swirls to keep the filter reasonable clean, and still do a superior job of filtering.

But let the physicists have their say.

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

The operative word in my comments on the air swirlers added to carbs (after the filter) is "supposed". I agree with you, Eric, that there are simply too many variables and already probably enough dynamic forces going on in the induction system that any further tubulence is probably just additional noise in the equation.
Bob Muenchausen

Quoting;
Eric, Atlanta
Dwight,
Do you think they are going to have these for MGBs any time soon? You seem like a very nice fellow, ordering tires and all for your fellow club members. We need more people like you in the hobby.
Too bad Moss and VB don't have the same attitude!
Keep up the good work!
Eric
74.5 MGBGT---rubber bumpers and twin SUs'

To highlight your phrase; To bad Moss and VB don't have the same attitude?

Eric, profit is not a dirty word. However, I don't need much, as I'm on SSD.
Which I am grateful for in my condition, but wish I wasn't on it.
I'd rather be healthy!

But I do get something out of this type of transaction.
As a dealer for Amsoil, I would get a small commision, and I am allowed to make a small income on SSD.
But doing business across the country is very hard. So you should buy direct from them.
And it would come from the closest distributor.

Hey it's fun to work with club members. Especially those who love/like the cars I do.
SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Nothing wrong with profit Dwight!
I see a lot of posts on this site where people mention cars or parts for sale on ebay. On a few occasions, it has been the seller who posts the innocent thread saying to "check this out". In these cases, it's the seller trying to bring attention to his item so he can make a better profit, so don't feel bad, no one condemns them!
On the subject of yours filters, is there a target date for when, or if they are going to produce filters for the twin carb Bs?
Eric

Eric
Give me a part number for them. I can use the Amsoil cross reference to find out what number they have. Or it could cross over to a Wix number.
EMAIL ME!
SF
Dwight

DCM McCullough

Dwight,
What kind of part number do you need?
Eric

Eric
Did you try my email?
The part number on the filter, or from the box it came in, or anywhere on the filter.
SF
Dwight

DCM McCullough

Interesting thread.
Does anyone know why outboard motors (and inboard-outboard)don't use airfilters? Is it because small amounts of dust and dirt aren't that big of a deal? If so, then what's the worry with small particles passing the air filters on cars?
Just a thought...
Steve

Lawn mowers do have air filters - usually foam - just as motor vehicles do. A motorboat would operate in a relatively dust-free environment. The answer must be in the different environments in which each is expected to operate.
Charles Edwards

Charles is right, it depends on the application. Most snowblowers also do not have air filters for the same reason, winter is pretty dustless when the ground is covered in snow.
John H

Charles and John,
I know it depends on the application, but I was trying to question at what point do we start worrying about particles of dust and dirt? Of course, a lawn mower runs in an environment of dust and dirt, but it has a filter. The boat engines I mentioned don't have road dirt, but certainly have particles in the air that aren't being filtered.
When people talk about the size of filtration in Microns, I figured there was that size of particle blowing in the wind. (for boats and cars to enjoy)
Contributors to this thread are worried about small holes in the K+N. My first Healy had wire mesh filters that stopped everything larger that mouse or a walnut.
I want to be able to purchase good quality filters at a lower price than K+N.
Steve

Steve, if you are conerned that the K&N's let thru small particals then use a paper or oiled foam filter. I really don't think that the K&N's are that expensive since you will likely never have to replace them. Like the Healy, Harly Davidson also used a wire mess filter, looked like a large brillow pad, for years although you were supposed to oil them.
John H

Steve, if you are conerned that the K&N's let thru small particals...

I'm not that "conerned", in fact, that was the question I was asking. Just how much filtering do we need on a car that might not cover more than a few thousand miles per year?
I have K+N on my cars and truck now. At $50 or so, per filter, I think that is a chunk of change for a car that I am not planning on keeping forever.
I just don't see the costs involved for production. Even though I could buy five paper filters for the price of one K+N, how many will I use over the lifespan of the car?
If Dwight could get us some cheaper filters similar to K+N, I would buy them.
Steve

After years of seeing the K&N lauded on the BBS and, succumbing to K&N's ad copy, I installed K&N cartridges in my car's Cooper cans. The engine idled better, but I'm not sure it actually ran better at 2,000 RPM and up.

I have another B but with a DGV and I installed a K&N on it. The Weber is so smooth that I couldn't notice any difference at idle, but on acceleration I could hear the intake hiss from the carb.

Both of the above made me feel guilty because I believe that there are no free lunches. If a filter allows more air to pass then I assert that it's passing more air along with more of everything that's suspended in the air.

The guilt enters my personal calculus because I use my cars for TSD road rallies and I can't be sure that I'll never have to traverse a dirt road. So I returned paper cartridges to the car with the HS-4s and I'm looking for a paper filter to fit the DGV. I haven't found one though.

Anybody know of one?
Charles Edwards

I for one would like to know two things.

One, how small of particles are allowable for decent engine life. Not some "absolute, clean room" standard, but real world, manufacturer's realistic estimate for normal engine life with due diligence maintenance?

And, two, how small/large are the actual particles a typical K&N setup allows thru when properly oiled and sealed with grease?

I wonder because I sometimes think we can get to a point where we chase the Will-o-the-wisp for no good reason.
Bob Muenchausen

I refered to a web site in a prior posting that showed no meaningful difference in air flow from a paper to a K&N and better cleaing from the paper filter - although the K&N got better as it got dirtier. Air flow also dropped with dirt, but not as much as with the dirty paper filter.

Industrial engines used in very dusty conditions will have multiple stage filters. The first stage is a snorkel inlet shaped like a venturi at the inlet. This speeds up the air as it enters the filter and can result in the big or heavy dust particles not being sucked in at all. The Next stage is the swirl section - centrifugal - with the air being spun aroung and the air to the engine sucked from the high vacuum central portion of the filter and most of the dirt dropping down to the oil bath below. Then through an oiled foam filter, and finally to a paper filter.
The paper lasts longer than the old oil bath filter that had a fibrous material that stayed oily and caught a lot of the dust. The paper can be shaken out or blown with an air nozzle and be cleaned several times before replacement. Way easier and quicker than using solvent to clean the oiled fibers.

With tractors and earth movers, the filters may need to be cleaned every hour or so in dusty conditions.

Many manufacturers on small lawnmowers and rototillers are now puting an oiled foam sock over a paper filter, to 1/ get better filtration and 2/ extend the life of the paper filter. You don't want the paper filter to get oiled though.
Barry
Barry Parkinson

Guys, guys, guys.
Let me explain?

The new filters, oil and air filters from A---- [don't dare say the name]
Are made from a nano-fibre synthetic material.
Very small, [that's what nano means] to prevent small dirt particles from entering the engine, and with many more ways/passages to let the air/oil through.

Now if anyone can get me a part number, I can cross-reference it, and see if it's avaiable.
SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Dwight
Nano might be good for catching the little stuff, but is not necessarily better for performance or long service life.
Unless you live in a dusty climate, modern air filters are very adequate. I have a 2001 olds v6 with over 100,000 miles on the clock and it still uses virtually no oil between changes at 7,000 mile intervals. This kind of experience is pretty typical with modern engines. Counting the original filter, I've had 3 air filters in the Olds during that time. Frankly, I probably didn't need to change the filter that often.


My mgb engine came from Las Vegas (dusty desert) and had no piston ridge when I pulled the engine down at 135,000 miles. (1st time the head was off) The nanos must have been getting into the engine in "nano" quantities.

I can't get excited over a nano improvement of a very satisfactory existing product, -- especially if it is more expensive.


Nano is a good pitch. What is the data as to the portion of air contaminates that are nano in size? And do nano objects contribute more or less than big particles to engine wear? Are all the holes small enough to catch nano sized particles? If so, how does the thing flow any air? If it only catchs a few of the nanos and most of the air goes throught the bigger holes, what per cent are trapped? If it catches all these nanos what is the life expectancy before all the nano holes are filled by macro dust particles? And of course, how much pressure drop is there for volume flowed? at new? at 20,000 miles?

My watch gets a few seconds off in a year. I could pay a lot more and get one that automatically synchs to the atomic clock radio signals. At this point it ain't worth the bother.

Barry
Barry Parkinson

What's all this talk about nano nano?

Mork
Mork

Barry,
That's exactly what I was getting to with the questions regarding boats with no air filer. Just how large of a nano particle causes damage over time?
This thread should go with "what kind of oil, brake fluid or paint is best"? Everyone has their own idea, and no one is correct.
Steve

AFAIK "nano" refers billionths of something. The big question here then would be billionths of an inch, a millimeter, or ???? Maybe it is billionths of the small rodent Steve mentioned? ;-)

Seriously, tho, what seems most important to me, at least, is when do we reach a point of diminishing returns from filtration. If significant wear over time ceases to be a realistic problem at a certain particle size ~ one that a manufacturer's warrantee dept is comfortable with ~ then what is that size? And if Dwight's new found filtering material is capable of filtering well below that size, I suppose that is good in and of itself and quite an accomplishment, but does that mean we get significantly extended engine life (not vastly better, but scientifically significant) or do other factors from wear drown out the benefit because it is so small?? Sometimes I think benefits can be measured in nano units as well, but I am wondering if we are paying for nano benefits or mega benefits??
Bob Muenchausen

nano nano nano, I'm better than you are, are nano nano nano.
Barry Parkinson

Well I hope I don't get 'thrown off' the forum again???

But here's the web site. Do you have enough energy to click on this??

LOL
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/eaa.aspx

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

I think I've found the answer to my concern (essentially "No free lunch."). K&N offers a foam filter pre-wrap with the part number 25-3900. It effectively turns the Filtercharger into a secondary air filter and this should improve filtration on dusty rally roads. It can be removed for autocrossing or the spring concours d'elegance. It's expensive, though. Summit Racing offers it at around $20.

Napa offers a WIX filter wrap. A tolerable one is the Napa part number FIL 4707, with a price of $2.99.

On closer examination the foam looks like the material used to block air drafts from creeping around the sashes on the double-hung window of an old house in which one is installing a window air conditioner.

Possibly a home supply store has this material in an appropriate size and density for something around $1.99.

I hope to find some tomorrow before a planned blast with our local British car club along a pleasant road that parallels the James River between Richmond and Williamsburg. Temperature is projected at 80 degrees F, so my wife and I will go topless. Uh, the MG will go topless.

Chuck Edwards
Charles Edwards

0.8 microns is the filtering ability of the Amsoil product. At least we now know that. Now the question remains, what size is at the point of diminished returns? Have to do a little digging on the web or elsewhere. Of course 0.8 microns is very good, but a comparo with other media will be interesting.
Bob Muenchausen

FWIW,

Micron
A unit of length. One Micron = 39 millionths of an inch (.000039"). Contaminant size is usually described in microns. Relatively speaking, a grain of salt is about 60 microns and the eye can see particles to about 40 microns. Many hydraulic filters are required to be efficient in capturing a substantial percentage of contaminant particles as small as 5 microns. A micron is also known as a micrometre, and exhibited as µm.

Thank you, Texaco! The web is just jampacked with worthy nuggets. Wonder what else will turn up. Stay tuned. ;-)
Bob Muenchausen

Charles Edwards, Virginia, USA
You make me very jealous!
We might make 45 degrees with rain this week. And that's warm for this time of year in Minnesota.
Plus March usually has a gift for us, in the later part of the month.
Snow!
Lotsa alotsa snow.
No top down stuff for us until early May. And then last year at our first autox, we did get flurries of the white stuff.

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

According to the following, 0.8 microns absolute filtering abilty ought to be more than sufficient to prevent wear. I would imagine that you must also be sure that your fuel and oil filters are of comparable capability. This pretty much answers the questions I posed a long time ago in this thread. Should have gone out to the internet a long time ago for a direct answer.

"The Following Is A Summary Of The
Society Of Automotive Engineers (SAE)
Paper Number 881825 Entitled
"Correlating Lube Oil Filtration Efficiencies
With Engine Wear"

"Written by David R. Staley of General Motors Corp.
AC Spark Plug and Detroit Diesel Corp. performed a joint study of the relationship between the level of engine oil filtration and Engine wear rates, and found finer filtration reduced the rate of Engine wear.

"Diesel and Gasoline Engine wear rates were established by building a Diesel and Gasoline Engine with fully inspected wear components and inspecting them after the test. In both Engines, the upper and lower main bearings, oil rings and compression rings were inspected. In the Diesel Engine, the cam lobe profile and cylinders were also inspected, while the piston pin bushings, piston pins and cylinder liners of the Gasoline engine were inspected.

"The total test duration was eight hours. To accelerate wear, 50 grams of AC Fine Test Dust was added, in slurry form, to the crank case every hour.

"Diesel Engine wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes: 40 Microns, 8.5 Microns and 7 Microns.

"Gasoline Engines wear tests were performed using filters with high efficiency ratings for particle sizes of the following sizes: 40 Microns, 30 Microns and 15 Microns.

"ANALYSIS

"The researchers found clearances in the Diesel and Gasoline Engines varied between 2 and 22 Microns during engine operations. That means particles in the 2 to 22 Micron size range are most likely to damage Engine parts. Particles smaller than 2 Microns will slip through the clearances without damaging bearing surfaces.

"CONCLUSIONS

"The researchers drew the following conclusions:

Abrasive Engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, Gasoline Engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration. Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling Engine wear.

"The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter's ability to remove abrasive particles in the Engine lube oil system."

"The smallest particles most popular "full Flow" filters capture with high efficiency are sized 25 to 40 Microns , depending on the filter brand."

K&N's comments on their filters are as follows:

" We subject a sample of our filter designs to this test procedure using Coarse Test Dust, which includes particles ranging in size from less than 5.5 microns to 176 microns. As a point of reference, a human hair is approximately 50 microns in diameter. The result of the above test procedure is a specific air filtration efficiency number. This efficiency number represents the percentage of test dust retained by the filter and thereby kept out of an engine. Our goal is to design our air filters to achieve maximum airflow while targeting overall filtration efficiency at 98%."

They cite testing by "an independent lab" with the following results ~

Initial Efficiency: 97.11%
Cumulative Efficiency: 99.05%
(http://www.knfilters.com/images/factstab1.gif )

Make your own assements as to whether Amsoil or K&N or your favorite brand of Paper element is best, but for an initial spade turning of the Web, these are more solid numbers than even a decent photo can capture. Hope this is helpful to those wanting to know what claims supposedly are based on and what is actually meaningful.

Bob Muenchausen

Bob,
Thanks for your research. The methods of measurement are peculiar to the attribute being measured. I'm not able to project the wear that results from use of a K&N, an Amsoil, or a Wix.

Other comments have suggested that a K&N is OK for the use most of us see. OEM filters are paper, however, and motorcars last a long time these days.

I truly suspect that we could use virtually anything and be OK. Part of this suspicion is because MG folk pay attention to their car.

Dwight, the weather in Virginia is nice for about 4 weeks. Then it becomes so humid that one can believe that hell could be no worse. Life can be good no matter where you are. Humans are products of their own perceptions.

See you at the first control.
Chuck Edwards
Charles Edwards

Bob,
Isn't all of that info on oil filters? I thought we were talking about air filters?
Steve

I was talking about particle size that generates wear, regardless of origin. Most of what comes in to the engine via the induction system either carries debris from the air or from dirty fuel. Some of that finds its way into the oil once inside the engine along with then normal wear by-products such as ash, metal bits, carbon, and misc other tidbits from decaying gaskets and even from crankcase breathers, and other sources.

Yes, the results above are speaking about oil filtration. But when you think about it, the tests do not discriminate about where the particles came from but rather what size caused concern for wear. If that size is 2 microns, then my assumption is any particle that finds its way into the interior of an engine and ultimately into the oil probably needs to be smaller than that or varying degrees of wear will occur depending on particle size and composition. I would not expect the same damage to occur from a 4 micron bit of graphite as from a 4 micron bit of silica, but I would think it safer to filter out all particles of 2 micron or larger size, regardless of origin, than assume that one filter would be more important than another. I think they all have to work together towards the same end or what's the point of having that Amsoil air filter and still using that Fram gas line or WalMart oil filter??

Bob Muenchausen

"See you at the first control."
Chuck Edwards


Say Chuck, what does that mean?
Control, as in rally control?

Well it hit us, about 8 " of the wet, slippery stuff.
Now it's 12 degrees above zero. [ferenheit]
And being March, we will get more.......
LOL

Ok, now the serious stuff.
I will admit, I am just getting started in all this stuff. About filtration that is.
Sure, I have beeen changing oil/oil filters, air filters since Fido was a pup, [1960's]but you don't learn much unless something really remarkable happens.

Like the plugged air filter on a Mercedes 450SL 'bout 25 years ago. Totally plugged, smoking really bad, and using lotsa oil.
Flushed it out,cleaned the breather system, changed to Castrol GTX from Pennzoil and it still smoked. Until about two weeks later, he stopped back in, completely clean exhaust, not using oil, and running great.

But then Castrol still tests out as very good petroleum oil.

I would like to be able to understand these test that they do?
SF
Dwight

DCM McCullough

Hi, Dwight.

Yes, a rally control. My wife and I are rally chairs for the Old Dominion Region of SCCA. We've been building the program for about 3 years and we've now got 11 rallies scheduled. We've been holding schools and getting people involved as rallymasters, competitors, and checkpoint workers.

We organized a school on February 18 at a nearby community college. The class was on the 6th floor and we had a fine view of a snowstorm that blew up suddenly. There's an old saying "If you don't like the weather in Virginia just wait a day or two." The RE was about to cancel the rally which was to occur after the school but we waited only an hour on that day and then the sun came out.

We had a series of guest instructors who covered various aspects of the rally game. They did a good job because all of our competitors made the first and last control even though not all made it to all controls.

There have to be winners and losers in competitions, of course, but we try to make the losers feel that they haven't wasted their time.
Charles Edwards

I have helped in the past at the LOL/SCCA rallies in northern Minnesota. Now Rally America holds them. And I have personally rally crossed a few times.
What fun!
I 'crewed for a local driver for 8 years as well.
But autox is MY sport. Since 1992.
And great fun in my 'B'

SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Dwight,
What is Autox?
Steve

Steve, California
Dwight,
What is Autox?

Maybe this will explain it Steve.

http://www.met-council.org/series.html

This is an 'umbrella' organzation for the twin cities of Minneapolis,St Paul Minnesota.
The club I belong to is called the Minnesota Autosports Club. [MAC}

Auto cross, or solo II is kinda like road racing, except it's not wheel to wheel, but against the clock. Or time trials. Usually on a parking lot at very low speeds. Sometimes never over 30 mph, but no more than say 50-60 mph. Between the course set up with pylons, or traffic cones.

With left and right turns, slowing for turns, etc. Electronic timing usually.

Great fun, especailly in cars like MGB's..............
Grin!
SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

/Users/dwight/Desktop/script.txt
DCM McCullough

This is from a younger fella in our club. Eric-------




Have you ever wondered what your car is capable of? Do you know how far you can push your car without losing control? Can you safely control your car when making an emergency movement?

Good afternoon ladies and gentlemen, my name is Eric Austin and today I will be speaking about the fastest growing form of amateur competitive motorsports: Autocross, or Solo as itís known in some parts of the country. Now, I bet youíre saying to yourself ìWhat did he just say?î Itís really quite simple. On the local level Autocross is an amateur sport. Anyone can show up and compete, given they meet a few basic requirements. There is a national level and even a professional level, but weíre not going to talk about that today. Autocross is a competitive motorsport in that it relies more on the skill and abilities of the driver than the preparation of the car. If you canít figure out the Motorsport part then maybe Autocross isnít for you.

"Autocross is a precision sport, much like, say, archery, riflery or golf. You must be precise and consistent, all the while driving so fast you can barely concentrate" -- Mark Sirota

Autocrosses usually take place on a vacant parking lot or other paved area where a course can be set up out of cones. When driving through the course you are timed and if you hit a cone, a penalty is added to your time. The courses are organized so that even the fastest competing vehicles should not exceed 60 miles per hour, and that all risks are kept to a minimum. Autocross is not wheel to wheel racing; at no point should your car be able to contact another car. While there is a small chance for contact, that chance relies on someone making a big mistake.


By now you might be asking yourself what you need to do to your car in order to compete. If you take good care of your car the answer should be nothing. In order to pass the required technical inspection at the beginning of the day your car must have a seatbelt, Your Battery must be firmly attached to the car, Your wheel bearings must be in good condition (you can check this by grabbing the top of your wheels and trying to shake it), and your brake pedal must not go to the floor when pressed firmly. Helmets are required to be worn while competing, but most clubs have loaner helmets available for new autocrossers.

You don't have to have a race car to compete. I entered my first autocross in a 1992 Plymouth Sundance. In fact, the majority of the competitors compete in the stock classes. Cars are divided into five categories. Stock, for the cars that are exactly the same as the way they left the dealership. Street Touring, for cars with a few minor modifications. Street Prepared, for street cars with a moderate level of modifications. Street Modified, for heavily modified street cars. Prepared, for race cars that are road legal, and Modified for race cars that could never be road legal. Within each category the cars are divided into classes, based on their abilities. These classes are lettered A through H with H being the slowest.

As a driver you should bring comfortable clothes that are appropriate for the expected weather that day. You might also want to bring a change of clothes for when the whether forecast is wrong. Get a good nightís sleep since you will be on your feet for the majority of the day. You might also want to bring lunch and some water, depending on the location it is not always feasible to leave for lunch. Keep in mind that you will be outside for the whole day, so you might want to bring other items such as sunscreen, sunglasses, or a hat. Be sure to bring your driverís license, and if youíre under 18 you will need a waiver signed by your legal guardian.

When registering on the morning of the event you will either choose or be assigned a number. This number will need to be displayed prominently on the side of your car. If you donít own a set of magnetic numbers I would recommend using blue painters tape. Itís easy to see and will not damage the side of your car. After registering, remove any loose objects from your car. The last thing you want is an empty pop can distracting you during a run. At this point someone will be walking around and doing tech inspections. I prefer to wait by my car while it is being techíd but some people choose to use this time to begin learning the course.

After you are registered and techíd you should walk the course a few times. In autocross there are no practice runs, so it is to your advantage to learn your way around the course. Three runs is the minimum for any event, however, our local events tend to run smoothly and it is not uncommon to get 6 or 7 runs in one day.

At this point itís usually time for the driverís meeting. They will announce run groups, work groups, and ask if there are any new drivers (or novices) there. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF AS A NOVICE. Autocrossers tend to be friendly, helpful types; and often there are instructors available to ride along and give you pointers.

During your early runs, donít focus on going fast. Try to focus on being smooth and not getting lost. To the untrained eye autocross courses can look like a sea of cones with no particular order. By the end of the day this will change, just pay attention and be patient. Autocross is a game of finesse, while it might look cool to wrestle the car around, pulling the e-brake and spinning the tires, this is not the fastest way around the course. Above all, stay relaxed and donít worry if you donít get a time you like. You are not going to win on your first day, so just have fun and pay attention.

When you arenít driving you will be required to help out. You will get a break, just not ëtil after you work. Job assignments are on a voluntold basis, you can volunteer to help with timing, scoring, or any of the other myriad of other tasks that goes on behind the scenes to keep autocrosses running smoothly. If you donít volunteer for one of these positions, you will work on the course itself, replacing cones that are hit by drivers and signaling to the scoring desk that the driver hit the cone.

When the course is being set up, a box is drawn in chalk around each cone. As drivers navigate the course they are bound to hit cones. When a cone is hit and lands outside of the box, this is a penalty. When a cone is knocked over but stays inside the box, this is also a penalty. If a cone is hit, lands standing upright, and is still inside the box; this is not a penalty. On one occasion I remember a cone being hit, flying approximately 4 feet straight up in the air, spinning around, and landing upright in the box for no penalty.

At the end of the day when times are being tallied and trophies are being readied come the ìbuck runsî. This is a time for competitors to drive each otherís cars, and for non-instructors to ride along. When buck-runs come to a close then everyone pitches in to help pick up the cones and timing equipment.

At the end of the day come the awards, this is a chance for the drivers who turned the fastest times of the day to receive their trophies and the admiration of the other drivers. Congratulations, you just made it through your first autocross. By now youíre so tired that you canít even think straight, but you wonít be able to rest. Youíre going to want to do it all over again.

Pretty good eh?
He did a great job.
SF
Dwight
DCM McCullough

Well, now we know the filtering thread is officially dead.
mephisto

Those filters must come in handy when you are running in the autocross!
Steve

bye, bye
SF
DCM
DCM McCullough

This thread was discussed between 13/02/2006 and 18/03/2006

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