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MG MGB Technical - MG Engine swap
| Fellow MGer's i would like to ask the cynical question of a 4 cylinder engine conversion into the B. Has anyone had any experience on doing a Jap 4 cylinder engine into an MGB? Ive already got a V8 roadster but would like a 4 cylinder preferably twin cam and japanese thanks Steve |
| Steve Berno |
| Pleeaaasssseeeeee, not this topic again!!!! There are dozens of threads about vandalizing poor innocent MGBs with different engines. Just read these, you will find any info there youŽ ll need. |
| joern |
| Steve- The big problem is engine height. With the taller head of a dohc arrangement you'll have a devil of a time modifying the bonnet so that it can be closed. Also, many japanese engines turn in the opposite direction to that of an MGB engine, so you'd end up with four reverse gear speeds and one forward gear. |
| Steve S. |
| Well, you could put the engine in the boot and the differential up front, then you'd have all the benefits of front wheel drive. The steering linkage might be a problem, though. Silly, but I couldn't resist following up on Steve's observation. Joe |
| Joe Ullman |
| Thanks Joern about the archives, since i dont read the MGB archive much(mostly on the V8 thread is where i am). As for vandalising well yes i am i also have a 3.5 efi v8 into 64 B , is that vandalising? Its just the MGB 4 cylinder motor is limited to the amount of modifications versus dollar scenario Steve do you mean the Jap motors are configured for front wheel drive use? If so there a lots of Nissan sports coupes here in Australia which are Rear wheel drive and the motors are all 4 cylinder with twin cams with or without turbo. |
| Steve |
| Heathen, why would you want to put something japanese into a perfect specimen of British sports car. Why not just throw a turbo cosworth at it.... |
| Chips |
| Well Chips im sure a conversion could be done here in Oz if you could find a Cossie motor. Ill just give up on this thread and search the archives Thanks to all for your constructive comments |
| Steve |
| Steve, Do not be discouraged since there are some people doing or have done what you are talking about. In my opinion because someone made a decision in 1962 I see no reason why someone else should have to live with it in 2002! As to the engine the Toyota 5 Valve, 2 litre is a good option since it is readily available and much is know about the conversion with the 5 speed Toyota gearbox as well. The potential for improvements is also well researched and documented. Email me direct if I can help further. Cheers, Pete. |
| Peter Thomas |
| Steve, I can't offer you any help on this, but I do have one request: If you do put a Japanese engine in your car, PLEASE let us know the details. Regardless of some of the unecessary cutting remarks you've received, there is indeed a LOT of interest in this topic among MGB owners. The British V8 Newsletter < http://www.BritishV8.org > would be interested in running an article on your conversion. |
| Dan Masters |
| Steve, I can't help, but don't be discouraged. Putting a good, modern engine into an MGB would make the title 'sports car' seem appropriate again. Charlie. |
| Charles Goozee |
| Good luck Steve. But why not just get a cheap, used Mazda MX5 - Miata? |
| Jim |
| Sorry, got to disagree on this one. Increasing age, in my opinion, gives anything (people/old furniture) the right to some respect. If you want a modern engine buy a modern car. Putting a Rover/Buick V8 in a roadster is a bit different because a) the factory did it b) the engine is not modern. As more time goes by, and the cars get scarcer, I will change my mind on this point also. |
| ian thomson |
| Ian, With all due respect, I must disagree with you. Old age alone does not confer the right to respect. Respect has to be earned - young or old, people or things. I've known a lot of old fools and old junk. I've also known young folks with a lot of wisdom, and a lot of modern stuff is pretty awesome. Personally, I don't want a modern car. I want an old car. A '74 MGBGT, to be precise, but I do want a modern engine in it. With a modern engine (a fuel injected Ford 302 V8), I'm of the opinion that my MGBGT will earn a lot more respect. But that's just my opinion. My MGBGT is pretty awesome, but that 4-cylinder lump is a piece of crapola. Regards, and please, no flames anyone. I respect your opinion, whether I agree with it or not. |
| Dan Masters |
| If you want a V8 why not use the BOP/Rover 215? It is a well established conversion. The 302 is a fine engine, but heavier and probably too powerful for the rest of the drivetrain. Will it even fit without cutting the inner fenders? Many mods may be required: beefier transmission, Ford 9 inch rear end, bigger brakes and on and on. |
| Andrew Blackley |
| Andrew, You're absolutely right, the BOP/Rover swap has been done so many times that there are really no problems left to resolve. There are even kits available to do the swap, and one company even offers to do the swap in your driveway in one weekend if you have a rubber bumper car. Unless you just enjoy re-inventing the wheel (which I do), then the 215 is really the engine of choice. However, there are real advantages to doing the 302, and it is gaining in popularity such that it will soon be a common swap as well. For one thing, the 302 is actually SMALLER than the 215, so it fits in quite well. Parts are much more readily available for it, and it is cheaper to boot. I paid $2800 for my 302, a brand new, straight from the factory engine. Another $1000 or so for all the other parts required - carb, intake, exhaust, starter, etc, and you're still below $4000. Fuel injection will run the cost up to around $5000 As for power, how much power do you want? 200HP is a good figure for the 215, but there is no reason you couldn't hold the power down in the 302 to an equal level if you don't want to upgrade the drivetrain to take the 375 from the crate 302/GT40 engine. A simple cam change will do it. If you really want 375HP, then you pretty much have to go with the 302, or spend a TON of money on the 215. Weight? That's the real surprising thing about the 302. With a T5 transmission, the 302 only weighs 15 - 25 pounds more than the MG engine with an OD transmission, depending on which flywheel you use on the 302. Those numbers are not just guess work, they come from actually weighing on an industrial scale. My car is a '74, and by removing the bumper overriders and using a lightweight aluminum radiator, I have dropped the weight down to where the two engines are nearly equal. Most of the mods you mention as being required for the 302 are usually done anyway on a 215 conversion, so it's really not a major factor. Almost without exception, 215 converters use the T5 tranny, and most upgrade the rear axle as well, but maybe not all the way to a 9" Ford. The 215 will be the predominant engine choice for a long time to come, but look for many, many more Ford engines as well |
| Dan Masters |
| As in Oz land we are very frank and down to earth so.. To Ian, you may be right but I have already done a V8 conversion into a B, so i've been there done that and plus i like my GT and want to keep it for a long time. To Jim, i dont like the MX5 as ive already had a convertible and now have a GT which i want more HP out of. To Andrew, Dan is 100% correct on the Ford V8 and its characteristics.If someone does a BOP/Rover conversion without changing the g/box, diff and brakes i say to them you are taking a big risk with the drivetrain.The Factory v8's were detuned quite so they werent putting out a lot of HP to stress thr drive train. To Dan, I wish i was living in America, that way no one here in Oz would have there nose put out of joint when you tell them you have a 289v8 that you want to put into a B or now a hot Jap 4cylinder. Thanks again guys |
| Steve |
| Dan: Thanks for the enlightenment. Looks like you thought it out pretty well! What about hood (bonnet) clearance? Do you also need to relocate the oil filter? I used to have an 83 Range Rover and the 302 swap was one I did consider. |
| Andrew Blackley |
| Hey Steve- I think Japanese engines will run OK in Australia. It is below the equator, remember. (Get those rear disc brakes in yet?) MMD |
| Marvin Deupree |
| Uh, Steve S., that is. |
| " |
| I don't see the point in a modern engine in an MGB. With some help from Burgess' book, I have a MGB which will pull 4th gear from 1000 RPM, will smoke the tires in first and starts every single time. And I have vintage charm and originality. If you are clamoring for a Japanese engine, I think you haven't fully explored what you can do with the B series with head mods and ignitor ignition. My father bought an MGA with a transplanted Toyota 4 and an auto box in place. It just wasn't right. It felt much better with an early B engine and 3 syn transmission replaced. I'll have to agree with the contingent that say 'buy a Miata.' A decent used Miata is cheaper now than a well restored B, and you save all the development cost and hassle of trying to fit the wrong engine into a B. and you get air conditioning....! |
| Chris |
| Steve, Talk to your local club guys. Here in Vic we have a couple of guys who have Toyota (celica) twin cams. The one problem i can see is the fab of engine mounts etc and the Twin cam engine is pretty tall. It's a great power unit though. It also has the advantage of FI, that unburstable 5spd celica box and there are a ton of bits available at cheapo prices in the wreckers, not mention the engine importers. Allan |
| Allan Ogilvie |
| DAN, WHO WILL DO THE 215 SWAP "IN YOUR DRIVEWAY IN ONE WEEKEND" AND DO THEY HAVE A WEBSITE? THANKS |
| Terry |
| Terry, Glenn Towery, Towery Foreign Cars, PO Box 352, Cheswold, DE 19936. No web site, phone # 302-734-1243 Actually, I was wrong, Glenn says in one DAY, not a weekend. His ad says "in the Eastern US" so I don't know just how far west that would extend, or if he could be coaxed out west if you waved enough money at him. Glenn has done a LOT of V8/MGB conversions. Andrew, I think you can get the engine in without modifying the bonnet, but for planning purposes, you should plan on a bulge. My car, with an Edelbrock EFI unit, will have a bonnet bulge, and Steve Carrick has a hole in his bonnet with a Road Demon carburetor. I'm not sure, but I don't believe Dale Spooner has a bonnet bulge. I'll look into that and let you know later. You do have to relocate the oil filter, as it sticks straight out the left side of the engine. The MGB front crossmember will also have to be notched, as the front mounted distributer/oil pump requires a fairly deep sump in the front, even with a rear sump pan. Notching the crossmember is not at all hard to do. Other than that, the installation is pretty much the same as for the 215. Search through htt://www.BritishV8.org to see some examples of MGBs with Ford engines. Chris, I don't disagree with you about there being no point in putting a modern engine in an MGB, but I don't see any point in NOT doing it either. It's just a matter of personal preferences. Nor is there anything wrong with buying a Miata - they're fine little cars. Nevertheless,I simply don't want a Miata. I want my MGB, but I want a better engine in it. Even if I did buy a Miata, I'd still want my MGB. I don't believe there is anything you can do to an MGB engine to make it competitive with a v8 or a well chosen modern 4-6 cylinder engine. Dollar for dollar, I think you'll get a better return on your performance expenditure with a newer engine, putting the same amount of money in the newer engine as you would the B engine. That's not to say that you can't get a very satisfying level of performance from the B engine without breaking the bank, and modifying it is certainly going to be a lot less trouble than an engine swap. For some of us, me included, the difficulty of engine swapping is just one more compelling reason for doing it. Of course, that's neither here nor there - what counts is what YOU want to do. There's nothing wrong with trying to maintain the original charm of the car, that's why we bought them in the first place. Hey, we're neighbors! I'd like to see your car sometime. |
| Dan Masters |
| My neighbor Todd took the original MGB block, bored it, balanced, all that stuff, added on EFI from a Datsun Z, turbocharger, T5 5-speed, and it's putting out something like 200 hp, but it's still an MGB motor. I agree with a lot of the guys who say just buy a Miata. It comes from the factory with dual overhead cam, mass airflow EFI, factory header, aluminum crossflow head, 4 wheel disc brakes, and most of all it's reliable. My only gripe about the Miata is that it's really low geared so that in 5th you're still wrapping about 4 or 5 grand at 75 mph. On my 74 MGB I'ev got Crane XR 700 electronic ignition, aluminum alloy head, and a "loaner" Weber 32/36 carb, and it runs great, except that I'd like to get a 5speed for the next project. the bottom line is that if you want all the goodies, reliability, but don't care about having an "original", get a Miata. If you want an original and don't mind a lot of work, keep the original MGB motor. If you want an original and more reliability, add on aftermarket stuff to improve the performance of the original. |
| Ken Thompson |
| You guys that keep saying "buy a Miata" are missing the point - I DON'T WANT A MIATA! I want an MGB, pure and simple. If I wanted a Miata, I would have bought one. I WANT MY MGB, but I want it with a much better engine than it came with. I admire Todd's 200HP B engine, but I don't want one. I admire your alloy head, weber carbed B engine, but I don't want one. In "MY" MGB, I want a 375 HP Ford 302. And I'm going to have one. It'll weigh less than Todd's turbo'd engine, produce more power, be a LOT less trouble to implement, won't be stressed near as much, and if, for some reason, it should break down in the middle of nowhere, I can have replacement parts for it the same day. Not that any of that matters one whit. The only thing that matters is that's what I want! The "bottom line" is NOT "buy a Miata." The bottom line is DO WHAT YOU WANT! No justification required. No excuses required. No apologies required. No explainations required. If originality is your goal, go for it. If not, don't. Originality is so far down on my list of requisites that it doesn't even register. And I'll apologize to no one for that. And I WILL NOT buy a Miata! |
| Dan Masters |
| Long time lurker....first time poster... Actually, I think that although the purists frown on engine upgrades (among other things), since there are so many MGB's out there, does it really matter? Sure, there is nothing better than a bone stock (restored) original CB MGB, and you can see them at shows, etc. but nothing also beats having a B that is reliable, with a good modern motor. The original B motor is such a bad design anyway, why not put in a better one? No one seems to complain when they see a '32 coupe roll by with the latest V8, and there are a lot less of those around. But my original reason for posting was to comment on the post from Steve S. from Virginia. ALL auto motors turn CLOCKWISE, when viewed from the front of the motor. Steve must be thinking of Hondas, since the front of a Honda is on the drivers side, and on other fwd cars, the front is on the passenger side. I have heard people say this before, but it is plain wrong. Incidentally, all plane (prop) motors turn counterclockwise, when viewed from the front. But in reality, when viewed from the position of where the end of the crank drives the prop, they really turn clockwise; it's just the motor that is turned around backwards. Regards, Marc |
| Marc Robinson |
| Let him have his modern motor. That just leaves another original MGB motor for the rest of us! :) |
| Steve Simmons |
| Steve S, As a matter of fact, my original B engine and transmission is indeed for sale. Cheap. Make me an offer? I'm not a purist, but I'm happy to help those who are. Marc, Thanks for the info on engine rotation. I had always thought that they all rotated the same way, but I'm happy that you've confirmed it. |
| Dan Masters |
| Damn, Dan, and to think that I and others like me were almost banished from the MGA brotherhood for "converting" to an MGB engine! I agree with your basic notion that anyone ought to do as they please with their car. Most of my life has been spent being impressed by the fact that people will do so anyway, so why shouldn't I? ;-) Alot less heartburn for me. And besides, every alternative provides new ideas to borrow and use to create something even better, even tho "better" is like beauty, and in the eye of the beholder. |
| Bob Muenchausen |
| I took the motor from a wrecked 97 or 98 RX7 its the rotory motor, You can run high compression with nirtious and a turbo charger and not need high octane gas. I'm in the process of building the motor once that is done. I am going to try and fit it. I had to buy an after market ECU for the fuel injection. |
| Bob Ball |
| While I disagree with modifying a major portion of a classic little british sports car, there were so many of these things made, that one less stock B only serves to increase the value of those that remain so. The B has been undervalued for a long time IMO, although I see prices seem to be rising a bit lately. I guess if you put in a different engine/tranny and did shock suspension mods, etc., is it still a B?! ;-) You can see a shot of my restored '80 at http://home.woh.rr.com/rundlehouse/Scottstoys.htm |
| Scott Rodriguez |
| Ken: 4200 rpm in Miata is 87mph. Sounds sweet and will run all day for 12 years (so far). An MG motor, regardless of output, is starting to sound a bit frantic around this speed. Life expectancy would be short, maybe 50k? |
| Pete |
| Scott Rodriguez wrote: "I guess if you put in a different engine/tranny and did shock suspension mods, etc., is it still a B?! ;-)" Good question. I guess the answer is - the more modifications you make, the further from a B it becomes. If it's possible to modify one to the extent that it is no longer a B, then this one would surely qualify! If your tastes tend towards originality, you might want to have an air sickness bag handy before you look <g> http://www.britishv8.org/swaps/choptop.htm |
| Dan Masters |
| EEK! |
| Steve Simmons |
| bob ball. regarding the rotary engine swap you're working on, could you drop me a line and let me know how it's going. i'm planning a similar engine swap. |
| jeff nee |
| Live and let live. I certainly don't have any problem with or objection to the sorts of modifications and engine swaps that some here have done or suggested for their cars. All rather interesting and as Bob M. says a source of good information and ideas for all of us. What is untrue are comments along the lines of that 4-cylinder lump is a piece of crapola. The original B motor is such a bad design anyway, why not put in a better one? If you want an original and don't mind a lot of work, keep the original MGB motor. The B-series engine has its share of peculiarities but there is nothing inherently unreliable about it or "bad" about the design. The basic foundations of the engine are over 50 years old and in some parts date to before WWII but that design provided a reliable and durable powerplant in numerous automotive applications in total numbers of well over a million units, for a production period of almost 30 years. When the B-series went into volume production after WWII it was remarkably more reliable than many of its contemporaries and renown for lasting 100K miles or more between major overhauls, when many other British passenger car power units (including Ford 4-cyl's) were lucky to make half or a quarter of that between rebuilds. Even at the end of its production life in the last R/B MGBs, reliability problems were primarily related to ancillary components such as the electrics, not the B-series engine itself. It may not compare favorably from a technical standpoint to a modern 4-cyl or V8 designed 30 or 40 years later, but it's NOT a bad design, or crapola, or unreliable. What we forget is that the most recent B-series in an MGB is at least 20 years old. It has probably been negelected, owned for some period of time by someone who didn't have a clue or didn't care, and in most cases by now has reached or well exceeded the service life that any rational engineer would have anticipated when the engine was built. Modern engines will hold up better to that sort of abuse and high mileage, because of the availability of modern materials and lubricants that just didn't exist when the B-series was designed and in production. The fact that as many MGBs are still on the road as there are, is testimony to the B-series' durability, reliability, and intellegent, adaptable design. It MAY be a lump, but lumps aren't inherently bad. But quite right, it won't ever be a V8 or a DOHC with EFI, so if that's what you want, go for it. Just quit pickin' on my B-series. |
| Jon Sjoberg |
| OK, I normally don't get involved in this particular discussion, but that yellow thing (presented by Dan M.) comes as close as anything I've seen (including weird 4WD and stretch limo "modifications") to NO LONGER being a B. Does the MGB (in this case a GT) present a particularly appealing target for chopping up and forming into something different? I can certainly understand engine plant swaps (I've seen a few that were pretty nice) but disfiguring the car's lines like that...hmm. BTW, this is not to imply that the workmanship isn't good or that the car in the photo isn't interesting, I just think we need to view this in the same light as those who've created those odd 4WD and limo "mods"...why? (On the other hand, someone else will ask "why not"?) |
| Barry Kindig |
| Jon, You're quite right, and I humbly withdraw my "crapola" comment. For its intended purpose, and considering the state of the art when it was designed, the 4-banger is indeed a good little engine. Until I pulled the engine for a transplant, I drove my little B all over the eastern USA, from Key West to Canada, from Delaware to Missouri, most often at speeds of 80-85 MPH (without OD), and with 120,000 miles on the clock, it never once gave me any problem. The engine was still running superbly when it was pulled. If I had to keep the engine stock, I would be quite happy to do so. Even stock, the MGB is a most enjoyable car. I don't think I ever got out of mine without a smile on my face. After the transplant is finished, it may require plastic surgery if I'm ever to frown again <G>. |
| Dan Masters |
| Dan, its interesting to be on different sides of this issue, but geographically next door neighbors. Actually, I live in South Knoxville, so we are quite close. If you've ever been to the Townsend show, I'm usually there with my BRG '66 roadster. I will admit that when I was driving a particularly rough MGBGT for a while I considered the whole Rover V8 swap thing. And I eagerly helped my dad put a 3 main B motor into his MGA (you can't tell the difference unless you look at the engine number). But I guess living in the South, I've gotten tired of going to look at classic import cars and finding a domestic V8 under the hood. Jags and Rolls seem to be favorite targets. I've gone to look at more than one aborted swap attempted that left something interesting like an E-type coupe dismembered and scattered. My dad's MGA was a cripple, with a non running Toyota four underhood. But East Tenneseeans are fiercely independant, and mechanically proficient, and I guess there still are a fair number a MGBs out there... So grab your torch and go to work. I suppose I see myself as a custodian as much as an OWNER. Perhaps my car will become valuable someday. Perhaps someone will be interested in the history of how to make all these arcane mechanical systems work. Perhaps someone will recognize the brilliance of the perfect balance and mid front engine design. On the other other hand, buying a new VW has shown me that cars have come so far in the past 40 years that I'm really chasing my tail if I try to make my MGB competitive with modern cars. (this all sounds too jaded doesn't it?) Chris |
| Chris |
| Andrew, I have just confirmed that Dale Spooner was able to get the Ford 302, with a carburetor and air cleaner, under the hood without modifying the hood. Dale's car is very nicely done, btw - a real professional swap. Chris, This is the first year that I HAVEN"T attended the Townsend show. Before this, the only BBC show I missed was the first one, when they had 8 cars in the shopping mall. I usually show up in my Red TR6, but sometimes in the MGBGT. I would have been there this year, rain and all, but I had promised a friend that I'd have his TR6 re-wired by the Friday before the show (replacing a Ron Francis wiring system with one of my own design), and he was coming down from Michigan to get it on Sunday. I spent the whole weekend working on it, but I didn't get through until Monday, so I missed the show. A shame, though, because I had entered his car and I thought there would be a lot of interest in it. It has a Chevy 350 V8 in it - a pretty impressive car. It can be seen at: http://www.britishv8.org/swaps/tr6350.htm He's the one who's stuffing the 302 into my MGB for me! |
| Dan Masters |
| Chris, I hope your car meets the fate you desire. A certain number of the best of these should be on display, much like some of the earliest motorcars. However, I would respectfully suggest that no well done modification makes the car any less an MGB. Bear in mind these cars were born to be driven. The essence of what makes the car what it is will only truely be found on the road, and it will be somewhat different for each driver. As the owner modifies his car, he is carrying out a long standing tradition dating back to the early days of MG and practiced even today. The basic car was a starting point, not the end of the evolutionary process. What the owner does in any well done mod is to make the car more of an MGB, not less of one. More power, better handling, superior brakes, all of these things and more continue the process begun at Abbingdon many years ago. The car was built as an extension of the driver himself. One that provided superior road handling capability. Improving on that only makes it more so, not less. As each driver will be somewhat different, what is appropriate for each will also be different. Still, whether power, handling, bodywork, interior, or all the above and more, it is still an MGB, albiet a highly personalized MGB. This is entirely in keeping with the original concept of MG itself, and when anyone asks me, "What kind of car is that?" I answer with pride, "It's an MGB". http://foresight.cc/blackwoodlabs/Projects/MG/MG_Main.htm |
| Jim Blackwood |
| But most people consider a car's make whatever the body is. If you transplanted everything from an MG into a Jaguar body shell, it would still be referred to as a Jaguar even though it would be far less car than it ever was. Making major modifications to an MGB does not make it something besides an MG, but it does change the car in a way that it could be considered something other than a B. An MGB with a ford engine, redesigned suspension and brakes, reworked interior, electrics, etc. is still an MG in my book, but not an MGB. If someone asked me what it is, I would reply "An MG". |
| Steve Simmons |
| Ultimately, this is a matter of degree. The question is how much is too much? My car has been modified, and I agree completely that performance modifications are absolutely in the spirit of sports car ownership. I've gone the .040 overbore, head modification, ignitor ignition route, and I've made other minor changes to improve driveability and performance. If I could find a supercharger that was appropriate, I'd consider that too. I also take pride in the fact that my car is driven frequently, and it has the scars and blemishes that go along with it. It's hardly a museum piece, but it could be one if you had the money and inclination to do that to it. Putting a Japanese 4 into an MGB just seems to violate the spirit of the pursuit somehow. I can't rationalize why putting an ex-Buick V-8 underhood is okay, when a Mazda 4 isn't---but that's my reading of the rules. |
| Chris Birdwell |
| I think it's a personal thing, and although to a large degree I personally concur with the engine thing, my views do not apply to the next guy. I also think the quality of the modification makes a big difference. Also, my opinion (the only one that counts :P) is that it is indeed still an MGB, and not just some unnamed model of MG. If I put MGB running gear in a Jag though that would not be an MGB. Jag innards in an MGB would. So how far is too far? I can tell you that too. My first forward tilt front end assembly was. Though a little hard to describe, it had the headlight humps flattened with the curve of the hood continued out all the way to the tires, and quad rectangular headlights were fitted. Most observers seemed to think it was a Porsche, something that I found myself oddly offended by. When the body is no longer recognizable as the car it was derived from, *that* is too far. But not a moment sooner. |
| Jim Blackwood |
| I would think a Buick 3.8 litre (231 cu. in.) v-6 would fit in quite nicely, give plenty of punch, lighter than a v-8, fuel injected, and even turbo. Just a thought cheers Gary |
| gary n. hansen |
| Gary, Except for length, the Buick 3.8 is exactly the same size as the BOP/Rover 215 (these two engines shared the same design and manufacturing tooling), and the weight is between that of a Ford 302 and the 215. Adding a Turbo would make the engine weigh a bit more than the 302, and would complicate the installation a bit. A GM T5 will bolt up to it, solving that problem. The 3.8 is shorter than the 215 by two cylinders, so it would indeed be a better fit than either of the V8s. You might, I think, be able to eliminate the need for modifying the firewall with this engine, although it would still be prefered to place the engine as far back as you can. I have one in my garage, and I'm going up to michigan next month to visit my pals at Fast Cars, Inc, so I just may carry it up with me and stick it in an MGB just to see how it works out. If I do, I'll report the findings in an issue of the British V8 Newsletter. BTW, 231ci = one gallon. I'd think it would be pretty neat to tell everyone you have a "gallon" engine in your car! What size engine do you have in your car? A gallon. Huh? |
| Dan Masters |
| Quote Putting a Japanese 4 into an MGB just seems to violate the spirit of the pursuit somehow. I can't rationalize why putting an ex-Buick V-8 underhood is okay, when a Mazda 4 isn't---but that's my reading of the rules. Unquote I think the reason the Buick V8 is considered ok is that the factory actually endorsed it by building their own. That gives owners "permission" to duplicate that car on their own. I also think the reason people don't really get excited about japanese engines in MGB's, is that the Brits owned the small sportscar market, were copied (esp. engine-wise) and then overrun by the japanese sports car manufacturers (sp?). There is sort of a bad taste in their mouths about japanese sports cars. Which is too bad, since the japanese make some of the most technologically advanced engines in the world. |
| MGR Robinson |
| Chris, Steve, you bring up a good point--that we look at the body, the outside of the car, and that determines our thinking. To me, Todd's MGB block is still an MGB motor even with Datsun parts and all sorts of modifications. Most american made pickups and SUV's are so loaded with luxury options that they're really just luxury cars with a power train to the front wheels, but we still think of them as SUV's--there's nothing "sport" or "utilitarian" about a Cadillac Escapade. Even insurance companies dont' give a darn about the engine (unless it's overpowered enough to cause wrecks). They just insure the body. So I'll have to agree with you that an MGB is still an MGB even with a 302 Ford. You won't know the difference until you look under the hood or see it pull away from the stop sign. I look at a Corvette and see the automatic, the power seats, power windows, power this, power that, power something else, and to me it's just another luxury car, no matter what's under the hood. |
| Ken Thompson |
| To Ken Thompson , Greeley Colorado Could you contact me with Todds (Turbo MGB) phone number or email As I would like to discuss the modification he did. Thanks Eric |
| Eric Krueger |
| Two alternatives, http://sawaiianpunch.com/MGB-E.htm and I've seen a starion turbo fitted to a B that was a straight fit, even the gearshift hole lined up. I think the front engine mounts were moved? My preference is a Toyota non-turbo 4 and 5 speed. |
| Chris Moore |
| Haha, what a great discussion. I cant imagine seeing a Jap 4 banger under the hood of a BRITISH CAR. I am working on a V8 conversion and like someone said earlier, I believe that it is OK because after all, the factory did do it. Although my chosen body style is a roadster, not a BGT, I still believe it is OK. Some dont but hell, look at the RV8. Who's gonna say that thats a "wrong" design? I sure wont |
| Matt |
| A comment from a lurker who has owned and driven probably well over a hundred MGs, ranging from a '56 Magnette through to a '74 B. I am amazed at the commentary this subject draws. Everyone to his/her own taste. As long as they are keeping an MG (of any description) from the bone yard, they are a freind of mine. I've converted Bs to Ford 289 (forerunner of the 302) and found that the drivetrain was more than capable of "taking the strain" (although the braking left a little to be desired), and I've employed British Leyland's little booklet on performance tuning a stock B engine. In no instance did I reget owning the cars. They always performed up to and beyond my expectations, and I am not a "featherfoot" driver. I have even driven a stock B from Vancouver to Toronto, non-stop (72 hrs) for almost 5,000 miles and the car didn't even once give me any indication of not enjoying the trip as much as I. I have put over 150,000 miles on a stock B engine (1970) and never had any major expenditures. So, if you must modify the car, or alter the driveline to suit your needs/desires; do it. Just keep the Marque alive and well. Regards, JR (lurker) |
| JR |
| To Dan Masters... Dan would you mind posting whatever you find here as well. I think this engine choice is really a viable alternative to the Rover V8. Many thanks, Pete. |
| Peter Thomas |
| I am in agreeance with JR here. Keep it ALIVE in what ever form suits you. If it be with a japanise built engine or the stock british built. The designers of these truly enjoy the fact that we have made so many of them last so long. I have read several times in several different publications how the MGB is a throw away sports car. Designed to last 4 maybe 5 years. Here some 30 years later some of these cars are more alive than ever before. My answer to the purist is "Hey enjoy this it only makes your car worth more to you" it is the same thing I say to someone that has made it his very own buy converting it to fit his needs. That is, was, and always will be the spirit behind the automobile. I do have a car that has a taste of both. A turbo charged electronic fuel injected B series engine. With a nissan rear suspension. I belive I stayed withing the spirit of the vehicle, I enjoy it my way. On another note. I have looked into what I belive would be a very nice pacage for the mgb. A GM 3.4L V-6 with a borg warner t-5 behind it. A very spirited 195 hp in stock form. With fuel injection distributerless ignition, aluminum heads, compact design. With a few GM go fast parts it can be taken up into the 225 to 245 range which is by far pleanty for the MGB. Doing some research on price has yeilded th that fact that it could be done for what a V-8 swap can be done for. I do belive if the MGB were still produced today it would have a some version of a HO V-6 in it.. Todd |
| Todd Budde |
| Dan - I'm not really thinking of doing the 302 conversion (at least, not yet) but I'm very curious. Where do you get the motor mounts? Do you have to narrow the rear end, and what about wheels? Do you graft the wire wheel hubs onto the Ford axles or ? Does the hood clear the air cleaner? Do you use stock cast iron exhaust manifolds (what year) or are custom headers required? How are the exhausts routed? What about the position of the shifter vs. the original shifter? Do you use traction bars? What tire sizes and did you need to enlarge the wheel well? Enquiring minds want to know. Thanks. |
| Dwardo |
| Trying to define the line between what is "acceptable" and what is "going too far" is tough. I feel that once you modify a car to the extent that it no longer matters what you started with, that's going too far. If all you have left is a bodyshell, it's easy to look at it and say, "That's an MG". But driving such a car would be no different than driving a similarily-modyfied Triumph, Austin-Healey or even car like the BMW 2002 and Datsun 1500. It's just a small, steel bodyshell with a bunch of parts from other, more modern cars on it. Still, to each his or her own and if the looks of the MGB is what someone wants for "their car" then so be it. Just be sure to make it a crowd-pleaser so other MGs get that much added attention. |
| Steve Simmons |
| Dwardo Q. Where do you get the motor mounts? A. You can either make your own or adapt Ford mounts to the MGB frame. Q.Do you have to narrow the rear end, and what about wheels? A. Yes, if you use a Ford rear end, it will have to be narrowed. This is a very common operation, and most towns have a shop that can do it. If not, there are several national companies that can supply the axles to any width you want. You can have new axles, or have the old axles, drilled to whatever bolt pattern you want. Q. Do you graft the wire wheel hubs onto the Ford axles or ? A. You don't want to use wire wheels with an engine producing much over 200HP, certainely not with more than 300. Q. Does the hood clear the air cleaner? A. Your choice. Depends on how you mount the engine. Most folks have to make a hood bulge, but it can be avoided. Q. Do you use stock cast iron exhaust manifolds (what year) or are custom headers required? A. Custom headers for sure. Q. How are the exhausts routed? A. Either under the Body or out the fender well Q. What about the position of the shifter vs. the original shifter? A. Close enough to the stock position. Q. Do you use traction bars? A. Yes, if you want to get the most out of the power you'll have. Q. What tire sizes and did you need to enlarge the wheel well? A. 215/60/15 is probably about as big as you can go without enlarging the wheel wells. 215/60/15 is a pretty big tire (remember, the MGC used a 15" wheel, but the body shell was the same as the B. In other words, the problems encountered in doing a Ford 302 swap are the same as using the 215 BOP/Rover V8. The Ford is a bit smaller and a bit heavier than the BOP/Rover. |
| Dan Masters |
| http://www.v6mgb.com/ http://users.bigpond.net.au/byronl/ More grist for the mill! :o) |
| Chris Moore |
| I think 205 is as big as you can go without enlarging the fender wells. I'm running 205/60/14's and until I rolled the fender lip I had a bit of rubbing. Bill |
| Bill Mertz |
| Could it be we have this all wrong? We should be grating MGB body panels on a Miata. I finally gave up in restoring old boats and not having something original that would offend those who consider themselves the Boat Gods. It is also easier to build a boat from scratch than a car: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291700617&code=2988628&mode=invite P. S. Add my name to list of UTenn grads here. |
| Tom Lang |
| Just in case you don't have a LOT more replys than you can handle, visit "The Sentra Net" regarding this subject. I don't remember the heading on the website (I think it's under "Project Cars") but there is a guy that put what I think is called a GA16DE (that's a '91-'94 Nissan Sentra Sentra motor of 1600 cc) in a Triumph Spitfire. Very well done and it looks great in that spitfire. Don't remember what he did about the increased height of the engine but I'm reasonable sure he didn't modify the hood. Good luck and take pictures. |
| Scott |
| i am very slowly puting a 3.1 liter chevy with 700r4 trans in a 70 mgbgt. I have gotten the engine and trans to fit, had exhaust headers made and am now trying to get the oil filter relocated. it will keep its fuel injection and computer. i have been playing with it on and off as money permits for about 2 years now. go for whatever engine and tranny makes you happy. |
| steve |
| Of course I can't APPROVE of putting a Nissan engine into a Spitfire, but I had a '93 Sentra and that twin cam 1600 is a great motor. It makes 110hp, gets great mileage and has dual timing chains instead of the belts most Japanese engines use. I ran the stink out of it for 114K miles and then sold it off... I know the owners and It's still going strong. Tom: I am also a UT grad (twice)--Perhaps it isn't happenstance that there are so many of us on this thread.... Chris |
| Chris Birdwell |
| Dont worry what they say man - if you wanna different engine in your MG you do it. Just make it a good conversion so they cant pick holes in your work when you waste them at the lights!! ;-> SOme attempts done thus far in the UK COsworth engine tried already and earth shatteringly fast!!!!!! a bit better with the dreaded purists as it is at least made by the same people... Rover make a twin cam 2.0litre turbo charged engine they fitted in a variety of cars, notably 220coupe, 220 GTi, and 620Ti. Should be good for 150mph, in these cars, so whats that in a flyweight MGB? a modified MGC bonnet would probably cure the lack of 'headroom'. Think a chap called roger parker in the UK (check MGOC) may know about this one... V8s are fine (im not going to slag them off in a room full of americans - i know you guys love 'em) but its kinda been done to the death - theres a new challenge ahead..! ~PHIL |
| Phil Earl |
This thread was discussed between 19/06/2002 and 08/07/2002
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