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MG MGB Technical - MIG Welders...

hi all,

my question is, i'm looking at buying a MIG welder to carry out the work needed on my restoration. i'm looking at the clarke pro 90, seems up to the job and at a reasonable price. would it be possible to run it off a generator, if so, what spec would it need to be?

i know there are welder generators out there but they're seriously expensive and renting one for the duration of time that i need to use it would cover the cost of buying a generator and welder.

many thanks in advance, joe

p.s. if anyone has any other solutions please let me know.
J P Connor

You would need something on the order of 3KW continuous power. Not sure how generators are configured "over there", but you may have to go a little larger to get a 230 Volt receptacle.

Wayne
Wayne Pearson

JP, whatever welder you get I have two bits of advice.

1: Don't bother with the little disposable gas bottles. They aren't worth it. Rent a proper sized one from BOC or someone.

2: Get a good autodarkening helmet. They aren't very expensive these days and they make the whole process so much easier.

You should start a little web page with pictures of your progress. That way if you start getting distracted or lose motivation again we can all nag you :)

Simon
Simon Jansen

nice one wayne, there's tons of second hand generators on ebay so picking one up shouldnt be a problem. i'll aim for 4KW.


cheers
J P Connor

Hello,

I have this Lincoln MIG-pack 10 and it works fine. I am not aware of the best one but be sure to have one that works really with gas. Welding with a core flux does not give nice results. Mainly on thin body panels weld.

Cheers,

JGC
Jean Guy Catford

The 90amp machine is too small for reasonable work. I use a SIP Migmate Turbo 150 which produces good work and its easy to establish and maintain a constant arc.
Think about going to an evening class for lessons. Simon is right, the dispensable cyls are a waste of time and money. Ask a friendly barman for an empty (well nearly) CO2 cyl and attach this through a regulator. These are then exchangable for under a tenner.
Iain.Mackintosh

simon, yeah i've been meaning to get a site sorted. i studied web design for a year so i guess i have no excuses!! i've got soooo many photos of my MG right from the 1st stages up to where i am now. the only picture i dont have is of the car when it was untouched, the picture didnt come out. after that i bought a digital camera and it's documented virtually all my work so far.

Iain, i've got a buddy who's gonna teach me the basics the week after next then if i don't learn what i need to after that i'll attend an evening class. i'm not going to attempt anything on the car for a while, i'm going to practice alot 1st then maybe start on something small like the boot corners or similar.

if i was going to buy both pieces of equipment off ebay what would you all suggest i look out for and what to avoid?

cheers guys, joe
J P Connor

I second, third and fourth the part about NOT buying a welder that's not gas sheilded. I have a 110V Lincoln that does the job fine. I run it off a 20Amp 110V circuit because, quite frankly, I'm too lazy to run a 30 Amp circuit out into my garage. I only blow the circuit breaker occationally. It'll weld 3/16" steel just fine. I have yet to find the need to buy a 230V unit,but again, that's not an issue to you. If I remember, all the pubs shoot a shot of CO2 as the last step in the beer pouring process, to put a head on the beer. One of those tanks will probably get you through the whole car!
Some of the units I looked at last year had stepped settings for wire feed speeds and heat ranges. Most I looked at this year had infinite setting controls (the only way to go). The autodarkening helmet is a nice touch too. Makes it MUCH easier when learning (all the time actually).

T
tom

if i'm honest it's not very likely that a landlord will give me a CO2 bottle!! most of the pubs around me are owned by chains and they don't have landlords, they have managers which are tight as you like. any pubs which are privately owned are a bit funny about young people. i'll find out where i can get a big tank. i'm still not quite sure if i'll know i'm buying the right thing. is there any models that i should go for?

cheers, joe
J P Connor

Any welding supply shop should have tanks for welding gas. They aren't terribly expensive, but you won't find your average publican giving them away. If you plan to do a lot of work, floor panels for instance, get a 60 cubic foot tank. MIG welders for auto body work should use a mix of argon (75%) and CO2 (25%).

I wrote a story about getting started in welding here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~goodspeeds/WELDING.HTM

Hope it helps. -G.
Glenn G

We Scots aren't as tight as you yanks. If you have a word with a barman you will get a cylinder without a problem. There are usually a heap of them lying round the back and as Tom suggests it will probably last you for ever. Gas sheilding is essential for good work and it is also vital to get a reasonably powerful unit. 90/100 amp welders are only good as battery chargers !! When you try to strike the arc the voltage drops to the floor and the arc extinguishes again. The welds will look like a row of bird droppings.
Iain MacKintosh

iain,

looks like i better take a quick trip to the highlands if you guys are so generous, i might even be able to get someone to do the work for me?! in your opinion what sort of amp MIG welder should i get and what size generator will i need to to run it?

cheers
J P Connor

glenn,

i just read your piece on welding and it was very useful. i liked your idea of making a stand for your CO2 bottle, very good little project to get you going. the only thing i'm worried about when learning to weld is all my mates asking me to weld things for them!

joe
J P Connor

Ah yes, that happens to me. As soon as people know you can weld all manner of broken things needing welding turn up. I always feel nervous welding on other peoples cars though. Still, for a few beers payment and offering no guarantees I'll give it a go :)

Simon Jansen

Simon,

ask for the beers up front and have them then you won't be as nervous!! i'm not going to be nervous, they dont know how to weld so if they want it done better then they can learn themselves! oh yeah, going to get a site sorted this weekend hopefully. does anyone know of a reasonable hosting site that supports frontpage extensions?

cheers guys

p.s. i don't support the act of drinking and using dangerous machinery, you need both hands to open a can ;)
J P Connor

The C02 bottles used for beverage service do not contain pure CO2. Get your gas from a welding supply. I prefer an argon / CO2 mix over straight CO2.
R. L Carleen

Iain - I may be lucky enough to visit the sceptred isle next summer, and I'll test your theory. What a nice souvenir that would make!

Regarding your comment about amperage required, I can't imagine how more current would improve welding sheet metal. My 100-amp welder has four power settings, and if I use either of the two higher settings, I burn holes in the metal. The higher settings have come in handy for other projects with 16-gauge and heavier metal, but not for 22-gauge body panels. -Glenn.
Glenn G

mmm. i'm a bit confused now, i basically need to do welding all over the car and the replacement parts i have are of various thicknesses. would a 100amp model be sufficient to get the job done?

cheers
J P Connor

Hi Joe
I did my first restoration several years ago on my Bgt. I bought a Clarke 100E Mk2 and it did the job better than I could ever have expected. I have used the disposable CO2 bottles for convience until recently when a couple of empty large (pub)CO2 bottles came my way as a place was closing down. They are mounted in a nice frame with wheels donated by a friend and I bought the regulator with gauge for about £25. The welder has been in use on a regular basis as I have restored other cars and repaired many MOT failures that have come my way, they seem to follow me home much to my wife's annoyance. It has just one tiny draw back, if you want to call it that. It is a tea break welder. Let me explain. It is not Turbo cooled therefore the motor gets warm with contiued use and when it gets too warm it slows up, does crap welds and cuts out. Now when you finally wake up to the fact that this can happen you pace your welding out (and you can get a good deal done before it needs a rest) between tea or coffee breaks.
For a welder that cost me less than £200 it has been great and earned me a good deal more over the years. I only wish I had saved the money I earned and bought one of those autodarkening helmets. I have used one once and they are great.
I have glanced at some of the other comments and wondered why you would need a generator. I have no power in my garage as it is not attached to the house. I run a lead from the house to the garage and stack the welder and lighting etc to that. I have never had a problem so unless your garage is a great distence from your home save your money for better things.
Finally if you have not welded before do practice and take some lessons if possible. Don't be afraid to turn up the power and feed to get a good run turning it down if it is blowing holes in the metal. Oh a word of warning, they don't weld great from underneath, you will learn to cope with this by very short blasts tiding up with the grinder afterwards.
Have fun mate as I do most times I get the welder out. Its now on its second time around on the Bgt which is being made pretty again after several years of everyday driving without a problem.
Doug
Doug Endean

cheers doug, some really good advice there. unfortunately my garage is some distance from my house ,and even more unfortunately, it's not possible to run a cable there. it's a fair sized garage on a block, the B's got about 1m all the way around it so access isn't a problem. i have a friend that lives a few roads away from me who said he would let me use his welder if i towed it round there and did the work in a weekend, it's highly unlikely i'll get the floors done in a weekend! unless there is a kind MGB enthusiast who lives near me (orpington) who is willing to put my B in their garage help me do the work??? (never going to happen!!) it's a bit worrying now, i've accumulated all these parts, practically everything i need to get the bodywork done and i can't even weld the thing together!!! now, where did i put that superglue?....

joe
J P Connor

You can get the floors welded in a weekend easily. The actual welding I mean. The hard part is cutting out the old floors, cleaning up the flanges and drilling the holes in the new floors to plug weld them in.

I use a tool called a joggler that has a punch on one side so I could easily punch 1/4 inch holes all around the outside of the new pans. You just ned to drill the holes that go over the crossmembers.

So I would aim to get the old floors out and the flanges cleaned up one weekend. Then drill and weld in the new floors the next. I think over there you can get zinc weld through primer (can't find it here) that you can spray on the flanges after cleaning them up so they won't rust while waiting to put the new floors in.

Simon
Simon Jansen

simon,

i've been spending ages getting the floors out and it's getting to be really tedious. i'm not sure if i want to remove the floors now, judging by the state of the sills (or lack of them) it looks like the floors are giving the most support. i was planning on cutting them back away from the inner sill, making sure not to damage the crossmember in the process, replace the sill and then replace the floor. i'm not going to start anything with the sills until i am completely ready.

joe
J P Connor

Yeah, getting the old floors out is a pain. Makes welding in the new ones feel really good though after doing all that work. Just going around plug welding them in is quite relaxing!

I am not sure what the procedure is if the sills and floors are bad. I can't remember if yours is a GT or roadster sorry? I would think you would work on one side at a time, i.e. replace the sills and the floor on that side then do the other side? And you may need to temporarily brace the car with supports welded into the door frames.

Others will be able to offer much better advice than me. I just did the floors on my GT and the sills were fine so I didn't worry about them.

Simon
Simon Jansen

Thanks Doug, you have done exactly what I have and used the pub cylinders and what a difference it makes. Point I was making about the size of the welder is that on a small unit the transformer is less able to maintain the current because when the arc strikes the voltage drops off much more than on a reasonably powerful unit. Fot me I wouldnt go less than a 150 amp. The current is not necessary for motor body steel but the arc is much more stable. Anyone who has used a bodyshop 400 amp or so unit will know hoe much better again that unit is and how much easier it is to use. As for a generator I would think that a 4kw unit would be OK. It would be rated at continuous output and would be capable of delivering considerably more on an instantaneous basis which it would have to do to cater for the current spikes created by welding.
Iain MacKintosh

simon,

i've got a 78 gt, i'm suprised it's in such a bad way to be honest! i was going to brace the car so that it didn't collapse, only one side at a time though otherwise i won't be able to get in and out to do the welding! i only want the sill to be out for as long as it needs to be, hopefully get up early and by late evening one side should be done therefore there's less time for it to sag. the neighbours should be happy! money is bit of an issue here, i would love to buy a huge welder but then i have to get a generator to match, and the price soon goes up. unfortunately i don't think there's anywhere near me with the facilities to allow me to park my car there and use their equipment, obviously for a price, but if i'm honest i don't think anywhere would allow you to do that.

cheers
J P Connor

JP

Some colleges run welding courses and allow you to bring in your own stuff to work on - see if any of your local colleges do this - then you can learn and be guided by a teacher at the same time as using their equipment.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,

It's an idea but if i'm honest i don't want to leave my car there. I go to a college where they do automotive lessons but the people that attend are kids of about 14+ who have been expelled from their schools and need something to do. I've seen the state of some of the cars that they have done work to and i don't want them near my B. I know they won't be the ones working on it but i don't want them getting a bit too interested in it and having a poke around. I'm planning on attending a college to learn the basics though.

Joe
J P Connor

Joe, in answer to your original question. I've been doing a bit of research about the generator. It appears that using the Clarke Pro90 you would need a maximum of 13amps for the supply at 230v single phase. That equates to 3.0kVA output from a generator. Checking the Machine Mart web page they have a Clarke 3.5kVA generator which should do the job. Runs around 600 pounds. Add that to the 164.94 pounds they want for the pro90 and you've got your package. I'm not sure how stable the generator output is and how it would affect the welder, but I suggest you contact Clarke directly for their recommendation.
P.S. Another vote for only using a gas shielded system.
Bill Young

cheers bill,

i emailed machine mart and they said pretty much the same thing as you. i was going to buy both pieces of equipment second hand on ebay. i'm not too sure if this is the right thing to do but it's the only way i can afford to do it. i have my eye on a few generators that i can afford, one being 5.5kva i think. how did you calculate the required power from the generator by the amperage and voltage from the welder? just so that i can work out what i size generator i would need if i find a better welder that i can afford. i've also been looking around for colleges within a reasonavle distance that do evening classes in welding and i can't find a single one! i think it would be better if someone could just show me the basics then i can practice myself.


cheers
J P Connor

I would recommend that you get the most powerful MIG weler you can afford. The most basic units are 90amps. I bought a Clarke 150amp MIG from Machine Mart about 12 months ago and have been very pleased with it. I am able to weld thin sheet metal, but also heavier stuff like when I needed to modify my suspension crossmember to fit my new engine.

There wasn't a lot of difference in price between the 90amp and the 150amp model, so if you can go for the more powerful one. Once you can weld you will find that the welder comes in handy for all sorts of jobs, not just your on your car!

My Clarke MIG welder works off the normal mains power supply, and cost just over £200, but has more than paid for itself in 12 months. Check out the Machine Mart web site, they sell everything you could possibly need.

Paul
Paul Grundy

The formula I found on the web for calculating kVA is:
voltage X amperage divided by 1000. The Clarke Pro90 data shows it draws 13amps at 230 volts. This calculates out to 2.99 kVA. Moving up to a 150 amp output/ 30amp input machine raises the generator requirements up to the 6.9kVA range.
Bill Young

cheers bill,

i'm glad you posted that! i was going to bid on a 150amp welder and a 5.5kva generator.

cheers
J P Connor

Most welders never draw near the maximum current in normal operation. I have run machines rated at 30amps on 20 amp circuts without problem for short periods of time as long as I was welding using about the middle of the rated amperage range. (75amps on a 150amp machine). You might well be able to use the 5.5kVA generator if you keep the amperage down.
Bill Young

Any negative thoughts out there on the Lincoln SP135 Plus? I am using the 125 plus (now the 135 Plus) at my local voc center night school. I would love to be able to buy something cheaper but I guess I am going to have to pooch the extra $$ for this unit. Any thoughts positive or negative and what kind of wiring should I have for this unit (I am an idiot with all things electrical). I could be persuaded to buy a comparable Clarke welder as there is a certain symetry to using a British welder (I know, they are now made in italy) on a British car.
Carl W French

I've been doing some research on TIG welders and own an old Linde MIG unit. The only advice I can offer is to remember that any unit may need service at some time and certainly will need replacement parts such as tips so make sure service and spares are available for the unit you choose. An 'orphan' brand could wind up being more trouble in the long run if you have problems.
Bill Young

Carl,
I think the Lincoln is probably 220Vac, and that you will want a 50 amp double (220) breaker. The wire size is, I think, is AWG 6 for that, in copper wire. I think that you'll want to have an electrician or somebody knowledgable install it if you don't have it already. Your breaker panel, unless you have a real old house or mobile, should hopefully be big enough, but it's worth it to have it done right so it looks good and it safe. Best, Joe
Joe Ullman

bill,

i guess if i'm going to be running at about 75amps i don't really need to splash out on a 150amp model if i can get away with using a 100 or even 90amp unit? i think the thickest metal i'll be welding will be the sills, will a 100amp welder be ok for that?


cheers
J P Connor

It should be fine. Most manufacturers state a range of metal thickness which a unit will weld. A 90 or 100 amp machine should handle at least 1/4" mild steel, far more than the sills.
Bill Young

We've been through this already chaps, my background is with a company who design and manufacture welding machines. Heavy electrics are are a specialised subject and voltage droop is a problem with light machines. What it says on the box is not necessarily the case in practice. Buy a 150 amp unit, no less - any lighter and you are throwing your money away.
Iain MacKintosh

Yeah, same with air compressors. The advertised ratings always seem a little optimistic!
Simon Jansen

i guess with welders it applies like all things in life, you get what you pay for. i'm sure it is definately worth buying a better machine with a higher amp rating. i'm not going to rush into anything now, i'm going to save up a good amount of money and spend the little extra to get what i really want, and will need.

cheers
J P Connor

When Jimi Hendrix recorded his first album, the audio engineers came out of the control room to look at his amp. They said they were getting some distortion.

Engineering and practice are two different things. I spent this afternoon welding a patch panel into the left front fender of my MG with my 100-amp welder set to the lowest power setting -- 25 amps. It worked like a champ, the panel looks great, only blew holes a few times, and the welds don't look like bird droppings, especially after a few passes with a grinder.

I'm sure the welding machine manufacturers would like you to buy the most expensive thing they make, but it really isn't necessary. -G.
Glenn G

I can only speak from my own experience which agrees with that of Glenn, the 100amp has a wide enough flexible range of use for all the jobs that I have encountered. It may pay to over engineer and go for the 150amp if only to have a turbo cooler but remember there are no tea breaks with a turbo that give you the time to sit back and look at your work and feel amazed. The worse thing is deciding in the end just which one to go for. When I got my 100E the internet had not really reached Devon and the only advice I could get was from the articals I had read, not that many of them about either. At the end of the day Joe go with your instinct and your pocket, a couple of extra weeks saving will bridge the gap between the 100E and a 150 turbo. Which ever one you buy just take your time and prepare the job as best as possible before finding a good earth point, then get cracking tacking it together. Oh, and don,t forget to undo the battery leads. I used to take the wiring block off the alternator at first until a machanic friend told me that I did not need to as long as I undid the battery leads (it may have just been the earth lead but I take them both off for good measure).
Have fun mate.
Doug
Doug Endean

cheers doug,

i have been looking at sooo many of them and they're all becoming much of a muchness. i currently have my eye on the clarke 151 TE. i'm not sure if this is the best one out there but seems to be quite good. if i'm honest, and i'm sure you'll all agree with me here, i don't think i can really judge how good anything is until i have a go or see it working. unfortunately thats not possible so i've just got to go on advice from you guys (much appreciated) and my gut feeling. the thing i don't understand is that i have been advised to get a 150amp model but in certain cases i might only be using it at 25amps, why can't i get a 100 amp or even a 90 amp model and run that at 25 amps?? surely it would do the same job just as well, or is there alot more to it than that? i have also given up on trying to find an evening class near me, it looks like adult education in welding isn't a big thing in my area. the website is coming along nicely and just need to find a host to upload to then you can all see what i'm up to, even though it doesn't look like much. i've noticed that alot of people do their sites when the restoration is finished, in my case it will hopefully be updated as the work goes on so you can see it progressing. a few people say it just looks like i've spent the past year dismantling the car (which i guess there is some truth to that) than actually restoring it, but when the site progresses hopefully their opinions will change. oh yeah, the battery is out of the car so no worries there.

cheers, joe
J P Connor

I've got the Clarke 150 EN. I've had it for just over a year now. i've had no problems with it, and have done quite a lot of welding. Being a Clarke spare parts are readily available should you need them. Looking at prices in Machine Mart, the 150amp models are only about £50 more than the 100amp models. For that sort of money I'd go for the more powerful one. Even if you don't need to use it to full capacity on your car, you may well neeed the extra power for something else in the future.

Paul
Paul Grundy

I bought a SIP Migmate 130 from toolsbypost.com, as they had the best price a few months ago. Currently £159 including vat and delivery. I think I went for a SIP on the grounds that they concentrate more on welders than Clarke do. Seems to have plenty of power in reserve, and quite a comprehensive kit for the price, although I've since splashed out on an auto-darkening helmet and some argon/co2. These have raised the standard of my welds from appalling to nearly acceptable, but I'm sure that's me rather than the machine. I couldn't find any local evening classes in welding either, so am just learning by experience eg the metal has to be _really_ clean, and the welding wire too. The wire which was pre-installed in my kit looked clean, however I suspect it was starting to tarnish, because changing to the spare reel supplied in a sealed packet made a big difference.
stephen

The amperage of the welder is not the only issue to worry about.

For clean easy welding the wire feed needs to be consistent and some of the cheaper welders don't provide this - there was a Practical Classics mag review of welders some time back and they may have done one recently - check with them or possibly with Which.

Personally I use a SIP Turbo 105 I have had for years and it gives good reliable welds in most situations up to 1/8th inch plate steel - I only use C02/Argon mix.
Chris at Octarine Services

Hi

I've read this thread with interest as I'm thinking of investing in a welder.

For me the main benefit of a 90-Amp unit is that (according to my understanding) I can get a 13 Amp extension reel running outside and weld away.

A 150-Amp unit might be only a few pounds more, but it will need a specialised power supply - either a generator or a direct tap from the mains inlet to the house.

Unless the 90-Amp unit really isn't up to the job, the decision seems a no-brainer to me given I'll be working within striking distance of a ring-main.

Or am I missing something?

cheers, Darren

PS for the Americans who might not know, 13 Amps is the standard rating for a UK domestic outlet.

D Lewis

This thread was discussed between 03/11/2004 and 08/11/2004

MG MGB Technical index

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