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MG MGB Technical - More rubbish rubber ....

Off a car in the shop yesterday - none of this is over a year old!

Picture 1.




Chris at Octarine Services

Picture 2.


Chris at Octarine Services

Picture 3.


Chris at Octarine Services

Picture 4.


Chris at Octarine Services

Be good to know who manufactures, and critically, who sells this stuff, so we can "rubbish" them!!
Allan Reeling

Allan.

The label on the first pic tells you who sold it.
The track rod bonnets and steering rack gator have to be new old (very, very old) stock or someone told the owner they had changed the rubber when they hadn't. But Chris, your point is valid, neither of the two main suppliers know enough to spec the contracts they place for remanufacture and neither inspect or test it when it is delivered. The answer is to refurbish yourself wherever possible or go to the independents.. and they are not always up to the mark either.
Roger W

The label tells you that it is Kevlar "reinforced" and made in Great Britain -- these Kelvar hoses have no braid reinforcing and do tend, like the fuel hoses, fall apart a little too easily. For the heater pipe to just fall off like that (and there are signs that the water had penetrated quite a way through the join) is just unacceptable. I have had a V8 bottom hose of the Kevlar variety split from top to bottom in one catastrophic failure.

If you 'have' to fit them, treat them as annual service items, but preferably find good old fashioned reinforced hoses or go to silicone ones.

As for the track rod boots and the clutch boot - I know they were only 5000 miles and less than a year old because I fitted new units. Either they sat on the shelf a long time or the quality is rubbish - needless to say I check these every year when the cars come in for annual service & MOT.

Just flagging this up for people who only service their own car and may not bother checking carefully.

I keep on feeding back info to my suppliers but sadly they mostly respond with " we haven't had any other complaints" - so flipping complain you lot!

Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,
what's pic 2 of please?

Roger, Allan,
as Chris knows I've been reporting rubbish rubber in modern parts for a good while now

I had steering rack gaiters and TRE boots not even last 6 months and they were new and nothing to suggest they were very old NOS (I wish they were as they'd have lasted longer)

it's a waste of time naming the suppliers as in my personal experience it covers all of them (including at least one favourite small supplier) and other general motor factor suppliers

I don't think it'll be long before this effects modern cars too (if not already)

for the last 7 years I had trouble with quarter inch fuel hose from varied suppliers (no, nothing to do with ethanol)

6 years back I had a new (not NOS) top hose that crazed in less than 9 months

rubbish rubber I know about -
. track rod ends boots
. steering rack gaiters
. drop links (bushes)
. axle strap
. fuel hose
. s/s braided fuel hose
. coolant hoses
. 'Kevlar' water hoses
. door seals
. header rail seal (profile)
. suspension bushes
. wiper blades (elements)
Nigel Atkins

Pic 2 is or was a clutch slave cylinder boot!
Chris at Octarine Services

thanks Chris

I often wonder about the seals for clutch and brake cylinders too

I've been recommending silicone coolant (heater) hoses (with rounded-edged clips) for a good few year now too

I got mine for the midget from Classic Silicone Hoses (other suppliers are available especially for Bs) - http://www.classicsiliconehoses.com/
Nigel Atkins

If I had a pound for every time I've heard "well, no-one else has complained"...
Dave O'Neill2

Gentlemen. I do not believe the situation will be as bad for modern cars/trucks as the major manufacturers tend to have quality control departments. They also have a vested interest in having new owners satisfied with the brand of vehicle they have purchased.

The problem, as we have identified over quite a few years now, is parts for older/classic vehicles. None of the vendors, to my knowledge, have any form of quality control program in place. Hence, it is easier to say, "We have not had any problems before" or "The parts meet our standards", than to set up an effective quality control/quality assurance program. One well known vendor stated, here, that they had not had any previously reported problems with their block to oil pressure union rubber hoses. I know, personally, two people who reported the same problem prior to the post made here. I also know that Motor Head's "Bad Parts List" had listed that hose for several years prior to the posting made here. Motor Head offers a quality hose, rebuilt on your core, for a large amount of money. But, I would pay that rather than have to worry about the hose splitting when driving more than a few miles from home.

The concept of "you get what you pay for" does not hold true when all that is available is junk.

Les
Les Bengtson

Those Rad hoses with the heater take off have been rubbish for at least 20years. I ran a BGT as my everyday transport all through the 1990's & had to change them every 18months back then. Always kept one in the boot. I remember one going bang after an epic drive over the alps to Monaco. Fortunately when they failed they usually sprayed coolant onto something hot & you got a telltale of steam before any damage was done.
G Britnell

My roadster still has the same bottom hose that it came to me with 24 years and 55k ago. Surface still smooth and shiny, and very pliable. I'm dreading having to change it. I've been carrying a spare almost since I got the car, depending on the quality 20 years ago that may be useless by the time I come to fit it!

I'm a believer in complaining rather than jusy moaning, had to have three goes at the MGOC before they replaced a brake light switch that was showing signs of failing after little more than a year. Also got free beer out of Wetherspoons after they ran out of ale one night :o)

BTW, where do you get your rubber parts from Chris, so I can avoid them!?
Paul Hunt

I ran three different classic MGs (two were Bs) 15-20 years ago and I can't remember problems when changing the hoses, perhaps I was lucky

Les,
I was thinking of after-market suppliers for new cars but don't put too much faith in all manufacturers quality control systems as a few years ago a couple of manufacturers found that a few of their dealerships had stock of counterfeit parts

Paul,
my personal experience is that rubbish rubber is across the board even from a favoured small supplier

most 'Spoons round my way serve the ale before it's really ready so I don't bother with them, most years I've not used any of the £20 worth of 50p off vouchers - it's a parallel with classic parts as I'd sooner pay more and get a better product elsewhere
Nigel Atkins

Paul,

I suspect most of them are from Moss originally - so many retailers including the MGOC buy their stuff from Moss - unless you actually commission someone to make something (like I do head studs) then you have no idea where they come from as most dealers will not reveal their sources.

Chris at Octarine Services

Ok, so what are we to do? I have replaced the windscreen seals twice in 2 years and had another fail this year. (The bottom outside lip just falls apart)

I have added this to my winter projects (along with the top hatch seal) and would like to at least purchase something that will last more than a year.
Bruce Cunha

I am going to write formally to my two main suppliers and ask them what they are doing ( if anything) about the issue.

Chris at Octarine Services

Just throwing this out there....
Surely there are enough trade suppliers on this forum alone who could justify a production run of quality components by sharing the manufacture run?
I will need front & rear windscreen rubbers along with countless other parts in the very near future, If there are enough takers is there the expertise here to specify the quality required?
Maybe if we take back the initiative, the parts companies will see that a quality alternative is worth investing in?
Pat Gregory

Chris - totally agree about the club's Kevlar bottom hose - Fortunately the Moss replacement has lasted.

Folks.

Has the time come to act ??? Should we ask this outfit to host an ongoing list of shoddy parts and their supplier - that we can all up-date ??

For the UK - the sale of goods act is worthwhile protection. We really should use it.

Yours - pretty fed up,

R
Roger W

I was in Moss this morning when a trader come in and asked for a condenser that will last more than ten miles.
He was told they have a high quality version that costs about 4-5 pounds more.
Trader turns round and said ,I will take the cheaper version.
If this is how people react when offered a higher quality item ,It is never going to get any better.

Ste
Ste Brown

>If this is how people react when offered a higher quality item ,It is never going to get any better.

"If"? Sadly I don't think there's any doubt....
Rob Edwards

"justify a production run of quality components by sharing the manufacture run"

There may well be a lot of customers, but there are a huge number of parts so the quantity of each might be too small. Also if they start making OE quality parts we might not need to buy them again ...

" a trader come in and asked for a condenser that will last more than ten miles.
He was told they have a high quality version that costs about 4-5 pounds more.
Trader turns round and said ,I will take the cheaper version."

Sounds like something from Monty Python.
Paul Hunt

Volume is the big issue - which is why most people buy from one source and the problem is widespread.

I have to beg the Birmingham firm that makes my head studs to do minimum runs - and that is now 50 sets at a time, this means I have to lay out £1000s on stock that turns over very slowly and to be honest I can no longer afford to do so.

Places like the MGOC must have £millions tied up in stock and thus price is a key factor - it isn't that the punter won't pay more, it is that the seller can't afford to pay more!
Chris at Octarine Services

Had a long conversation with one of my suppliers that has parts made which go to the likes of MGOc, Moss & Mini Spares - he confirms that the issue is that people WON'T pay more than the cheapest so parts are made to a price.

It is perfectly possible to make things to OE or better than OE quality but if the retailers won't pay for it then the punters can't buy it.

He quoted an issue over mini parts that everybody complained about so he invested £35k in have OE quality parts made and because they cost 5p a unit more than the rubbish parts, the retailer would not buy them!

Now he is considering having a special section on his website / catalogue that lists OE quality parts - eg British made leaf springs with the correct interleaving, but they would cost £80+ compared with the £45/50 of the current offerings - would enough people be prepared to pay an extra £60/70 for a pair?

Bumpers made to OE standards would be £350 each - how many would he sell? He can sell £450 bumpers to Healey owners all day long cos they care about quality - sadly it seems that most MG and Mini owners only care about price....
Chris at Octarine Services

Sticking with rubber parts (tho it could apply to other parts also), we all use the same parts over the years but at different times. How many of us would buy a "pack"consisting of certain specified items. We then carry the stock (+stockholding "cost"). The numbers would not be huge but it would be a reasonable sale. But it requires the distributor and manufacturer to play and produce the required quality (Determined by whom?)and us to agree to buy and pay up front! Any takers?
Michael Beswick

There is also the issue of how many owners "understand" the quality issue!! (Hanging offence?) Those of us who are "oily rags' definitely do because we are the ones who have to remove and refit these shoddy items and are conscious of the false economy inherent in poor product. There are those owners who simply hand the jobs over to a garage/mechanic and hand over the money, who may not be. Plus said garage/mechanic may not be as motivated to fit higher quality parts for profit or competitive reasons and also a return, to the same job, in the very near future, is not a disincentive, similarly with the suppliers/manufacturers.
Allan Reeling

The trouble with buying a pack, like packs of batteries of different types, or kits of nuts screws, washers and bolts, or O-rings, or heat-shrink sleeving, is that you are always left with a fair proportion you will never use. You may well eventually use MGB parts on an MGB, but what condition would they be in, like my roadster bottom hose I've had for over 20 years?
Paul Hunt

If you haven't found a use for it, you haven't kept it long enough.... Somebody's 8th law....


Sorry-back to the point. I agree but I think I would keep it better for me in my "stores" than anyone else. I am not advocating keeping most of the bits in the car, except perhaps for rad hoses. It doesn't help for a breakdown if the parts are at home but at least when repairing (or preventative maintenance)the job only needs doing once. As you have said your 20yo hose is still probably (?Hopefully) better than the current offerings.
Michael Beswick

I'm with you, Michael, on keeping a parts stock, both new and secondhand. The other side of the quality issue is that MGB bits are comparatively cheap. So I'm a sucker for buying in all the discounted kits of parts. I've used most parts at least once in nearly thirty years of ownership. Plus it's useful having parts available if you start a job on a Sunday afternoon. I buy virtually everything mail order - my nearest MG dealer is Moss, a 60 mile round trip to Bristol. I never throw anything away eg last year car failed MoT on a front wheel bearing - I just swapped over a better complete spare hub. But I agree parts quality is variable, to say the least.

On the rubber front, I was sorting out some old hoses that I'd had in a box for the last twenty odd years and the majority still looked malleable and not perished. Did I read somewhere that modern rubber compounds are more susceptible to deterioration?

As to Healey bumpers, isn't that just down to the end justifying the means? ie the way to achieve a Healey 3000's full worth of, say, £35K is to spend £350 on bumpers. To restore an MGB using original quality parts would far exceed its value, even if you could get them. So "restored" MGs can be sold for £10 - 15K often to folk where it's a split decision on that or an MX5. I love my MG, as I did the ones that preceded it, but at the end of the day it was a cheap sportscar that was only only supposed to last a few years under the Californian sun.
P A Allen

This thread was discussed between 02/10/2013 and 08/10/2013

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