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MG MGB Technical - Oil filter fell off!

Sooo embarrassing!
Blush.
Whose at fault?
ME!
It really wasn't the correct filter. But it was the same one I had all last year. And had been on since early summer this year.
No fragments, just gone.
The new Fram went on just fine, and holds oil very well.

However, it disapeared on my way home from the club meeting [www.mnautox.com] last Wednesday night.
First thing I heard was, a pinking/pinging noise.
Which when I heard it would go away when I pushed on the throttle, and came back without a load........
Then shortly a slight drop in power, and then a large drop, and the engine died.
I coasted for a bit, and restarted to hear a louder rapping noise, and now NO oil pressure.
Got to a safe place on 35E north out of St Paul, MN and called for a tow.
Got 'er home, and discovered the filter was GONE!
So Friday morninmg, drained the remaining 1/2 quart of oil, which couldn't see any 'Sparklies'
Filled a oil filter with oil, and the engine with 5/30 Castrol, and turned the engine over by hand. Then with the plugs out, cranked it over to 50 psi oil pressure.
Then started the engine to hear a noise more like a squeal, or light knock.
Pulled the rocker cover, and everything seems OK there, Ran it with same cover off, and the noise sounds like it's from high in the block.
It has 70 psi at cold/high idle.
I may just pull the pan and the head to do a look at the tops of pistons, and valve train. the pull main and rod caps to look at the crank before I pull the engine.
What'aya think folk's?

Safety Fast
Dwight


Dwight

Hate to say it, but it's rebuild time. I'd pull the engine out before tearing it apart - in the long run you'll save some time. Probably a rod knock you're hearing and I'd bet it's number 3.

Tom
Tom Sotomayor

Check the thread on your filter mount while you are at it. Is it worn or cross threaded? Is it the upside down or hanging mount? The rubber gasket on the filter usually provides plenty of sealing and friction to prevent leaking and falling off, even if not fully tightened

The odds your engine will not need a major bottom end rebuild are about -0-. You will have to check the cam bearings, oil pump etc.

The squealing noise is probably a siezed rod bearing spinning inside the con rod.

Barry

Barry Parkinson

You've got 70psi at idle so I can't see that it's rebuild time. Dare you start the motor again and use a stick to locate the noise I think you must be the judge but it could be a cam bearing to which the oil might eventually get to. Shells spinning in th rod ? this too is a possibility so it might be worth taking the pan off and having a look. If this is the case the shells will be seized to the shaft and you'll have to pry them off. You just might be able to carefully scrape the bearing metal off the shaft and save it but you will have to replace the conrod and unfortunately this means head removal. Don't take off the head until you have exausted all other avenues.
Iain MacKintosh

Dwight. My daughter had a similar problem, the line going from the upper rear of the block to the oil cooler split at 65 mph. We discussed the matter about a week after I had driven down to her (middle of no where, late at night, just south of Florence, Az., a large "prison town"--made the fastest time ever from my house to where she was stranded). I believe the results of her problem would be very similar to yours.

For the record, there was bearing knock, on start up, after bypassing the oil cooler system with the shorter rubber hose sold for non-oil cooler equipped cars and filling the sump to capacity with fresh oil. Oil pressure was good, but, always the knocking on start up. I tried this several times with an interval of about one half hour between starts to allow the oil to drain down. Decided to pull the engine for inspection.

Inspection showed flakes of bearing material throughout the sump and caught on the mesh screen of the oil pump. Crankshaft journals had significant scoring and had to be turned (engine had been rebuilt 2K before the hose failure and the crankshaft journals, when inspected by the machine shop, were lightly polished but, after 96K miles still to original size without need of being turned). Bottom ends of the con rods (big ends) had turned blue from the heat (in the 500deg F area to cause this) and were replaced.

Therefore, I fully support the "pull it/inspect it/rebuilt it" group based on a problem similar to yours and the results of a teardown and inspection. To run the engine, after your experience, in hopes that it will hold up is only likely to result in more significant engine damage, possibly engine destruction. You could, most certainly, never trust such an engine.

As to oil filters, the Mann W917 is an excellent filter and much better than the Fram product.

Sorry to hear about your problem, but you managed to save the engine. A few second's hesitation and you probably would have tossed a rod through the block.

Les
Les Bengtson

The whole bottom needs to be rebuilt no ifs, ands or buts about it and oil pressure isn't any indication of what the damage is. Engines don't like being run w/o oil for any period of time. BTDT when a Fram filter cracked and spewed oil everywhere but inside the engine. Toasted a rod and the bearing an the cam when metal sprayed onto that as well. I'm sure when you drop the pan you'll see metal bits. You'd be wise to have the entire bottom rebuilt and cleaned and throw your oil cooler away!!!! There's no way to clean the insides of an oil cooler if the bearings or anything else went south inside a motor. Ask anyone who races.

How people can buy a used oil cooler is beyond my comprehension.

You can leave the head on as that won't be damaged.

Good luck!!!
Mike MaGee

Well here what I found folk's.
When I got the oil pan off, it had lotsa 'sparklies' in the bottom.
So I pulled the engine, and tore it apart. #3 piston is scored, as a result of the wrist pin 'freezing'
That was the light knock/squeal I heard. All of the rod bearings are chipped and would need replacement.
But #1 main bearing is badly damaged, and may need to be 'turned'
The cam looks OK, as does much else. but I will take the oil pump apart, the rocker shaft, and give the engine a thorough cleaning.
And will need a new set of pistons. Etc.
Well here goes, I'll keep you'all updated.
Safety Fast
Dwight
dwight

Mike...actually I just had a disaster with my Saab 900T...crankoil seal broke apart and metal shavings from the retaiing spring went thru the pump and the filter to the bearings. This car has an oil cooler also...I cleaned it by using oil and my air hose...took about 4 quarts of oil. Ran the newly rebuilt motor 100 miles on fresh oil...changed the filter again....than a week later again cos I'm trumatized enough already...and it's been OK since.
Dwight...IMHO..pull the motor...cos you want the pistons and rings saved here...bearings you can replace...if the crank is OK, just use std size bearings. If you continue to run this motor...swarf will get the rings and bores...then it's a total loss.
Good luck!
P J KELLY

ouch
TheMiz

Dwight, something similar happened on my 74.5 B-GT several years ago when the flexible oil line from the block ruptured. I didn't realize it until about 10 miles later. Fortunately, I had been running ProBlend in my motor which claims it has supper slippery properties even in a motor with no oil in it. As it turned out, there was absolutely no damage done to the motor, amazing! Might want to start using this stuff after your engine rebuild break in is over. Otherwise it is so slippery that your rings will never seat!
Mwhitt

Dwight,
I don't know if this might apply to your situation, but my son-in-law had the oil changed on his K-5 Blazer at one of those quick oil change places. Some time later, his engine was destroyed due to lack of oil. When he checked his engine, the oil filter nearly fell off in his hand. It was later determined that his filter (Pennzoil brand) had an internal flaw that somehow allowed the filter to back off its mount. Not sure of the specifics. Anyway, Pennzoil paid for a new crate motor and its installation.
After reading an article on oil filters tonight, I am left with the impression that Fram and Pennzoil filters are made by the same manufacturer. If Pennzoil filters have an identified flaw, then perhaps, Fram filters have the same defect.
Steve Buchina

Dwight, that's a real pity that so much damage has been done. It would be interesting to know how long the engine had run without oil pressure i.e. for how long or how many miles as I guess it must have been quite a few judging by the damage. At least you haven't pussyfooted around and have got on with the job very quickly.

Someone has already said replace the oil cooler. This is very important as you just cannot guarantee that you will be able to clean it all out. Best of luck
Iain MacKintosh

The filter brand was, 'Pro-Tec.
I bought it at a Bumper To bumper auto parts store.
Why? To use in my Geo Metro.
Hey, I was driving 100+ miles everyday!
Same size, threads etc.
I used the same filter number/type/brand last year, and most of this year.
But obviously not correct.
Whose fault?
Mine!
Well now maybe I'll freshen up my O.D. transmission, and better camshaft, forged pistons, and etc.

Safety Fast
Dwight
Dwight

Hats off to you, Dwight. You seem to be taking it rather well. Me? I'd be just bloody pissed and growling at everyone I met.

Cheers and good luck.

Luigi
Luigi

Sh*t happens. When my filter blew and destroyed my motor I took it in stride. I contacted Fram with no result. The aggravation that I would have gone through suing them (I've done that before when my 66 Datsun Roadster was stolen from a 'secure' parking facility) was not worth it. Fortunately I had enough money to rebuild it.

My engine lasted about 20 - 30 seconds at highway speeds before I was able to pull over on the side of the highway and I even cut the ignition prior to pulling off.

I would like to install an oil light as race cars do, to warn me of a low oil pressure condition on my MGB as the oil pressure gauge on my 66 is out of the line of sight.

BTW, don't use forged pistons on a street motor - they have excessive skirt slapping and except for an all out race motor are totally overkill and EXPENSIVE!!
Mike MaGee

Sorry to hear about your motor Dwight.

Perhaps it would be wise to install an oil pressure switch, and using that switch to control a relay so that one could cut power to the coil when the pressure drops below the switch threshold. One could bypass the switch when cranking so that the engine will fire with low start-up pressure.

You would lose engine power instantly when the pressure dropped which would protect most, if not all, of the components. Some might think of the power loss as dangerous, but perhaps not as dangerous as the engine coming to bits and possibly locking the rear wheels / catching fire? I suppose you could always have another emergency button somewhere which would put power on the coil enabling you to run the engine with no pressure.

fwiw,
--
Olly

Oliver Stephenson

The issue of the filter coming off has me interested in another question. My 67 GB engine has the oil fiter hanging down, but I have seen later MGB's that have the oil finter going up.

Was there any specific reason why they changed the filter direction? I have to believe it is a bit messier to change the filter that goes up.

Bruce Cunha

The comment about not useing forged pistons intersts me. Any others with direct experiance? About 14 years ago I was restoring a 60 1600 MGA. I complained to my machine shop man about the cost of pistons, all I could find at the time were cast AP 5 ring pistons. He contacted Venolia who made custom forged pistons and rings to the machine shops specs. They were about half the cost and we went with a modern 3 ring set up that creates less internal friction, read less heat and wear and more power, never had any noise ploblems. Saved $$$ to. Did have to wait 8 weeks though.
Randy
R J Brown

Bruce
The hanging down type tecalemit was used up to the
MK2 MGB in late 67.The MK2 used the upright tecalemit
filter. As you say the later design is messier when
changing the oil, but it is easier to access.I dont know any reason for the change other than better access.
Robert
Robert Collier

Bruce,

The later starter (introduced in 68) is longer and won't clear the hanging filter. So they inverted the filter to avoid this. Unfortunately, they didn't incorporate any means to prevent the oil from draining back once the engine was shut off. The next time the engine was started, the oil had to fill the oil filter housing before any got sent to the bearings. Years ago my first B (68) came with this arrangement. Bearing clatter upon startup from lack of oil was rather pronounced and lasted for quite a few seconds. In 70 the design was changed to a spin on filter, which with the appropriate anti-drainback valve in the filter itself will prevent the dreaded dry start. It seems though, that many filters have an inefficient anti-drainback valve so we're pretty much back where we started!

HTH - Tom
Tom Sotomayor

The filter set-up I have is a hanging-down/spin on one off the Austin Marina I owned.
Less mess, and instant oil pressure. Although I'm told by many folk's on this board, a Mann filter will eliminate this.

Forged piston versus cast?
Hmmmmmmm?
Forged pistons can be with the real narrow rings, and extra stuff that gives longer life, and less oil burning............... Mo power from less weight..........
I will do a price comparison.

Safety Fast
Dwight


Dwight

No problems with starter interferrence.
Even with the stock starter. Even less with the gear reduction unit.

The problem was just a cheap oil filter that the threads were very poor.
And it's my fault for buying it.

'The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten' [M. Daniels GM Training Center 1970]

Safety Fast
Dwight
Dwight

MGB switched to a hang-down alternative oil filter in Dec 73 beginning with GT 339095 and Roadster 338791.
In Feb 74 beginning with GT 343761 and Roadster 343761 the inverted oi9l filter was re-introduced.
See Clausager's Original MGB page 148.

Strangely, my 74 roadster 337102 has a hang-down filter, I didn't buy the car new and it looked unmolested when I bought it. I don't think there is room for a big filter, it uses the same filter that is used on MG midgets. Purolator L10028 fits. This information is listed in most major oil filter parts manuals. It still makes a mess when changing the filter because the oil cooler hoses are higher than the filter and oil runs out when the filter is removed. You can punch a hole in the top of the inverted filter and let it sit a few hours before changing and most of the oil usually drains back into the engine eliminating most of the spilled oil.

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

This thread was discussed between 03/10/2005 and 09/10/2005

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