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MG MGB Technical - Power Steering Review

Our 1800 roadster is in regular use all year round and with two new young drivers keen to use her we have been thinking about fitting a power steering kit. As this has been an option for sometime, we hoped there might be someone here who could tell us how power steering affects the drive on the road and perhaps the quality and durability of the kit.
Roger Walker

Roger,
I'm lost why would youngsters need power steering, unless you have a tiny steering wheel instead of the standard size 15.5". Parallel parking a Capri is heavy work but I can't remember a B being heavy. Why complicate something that's simple and works, it'll also help them learn about steering feel.

Personally I wouldn't let them behind the steering wheel until they knew about checking the brake fluid level and colour, how the choke operates, how to fold the midget-hood-trunk-gas-charged-props.htm>hood properly, in fact (of course) them reading the Driver's Handbook.

The first trips they'd take with me would be to the petrol station to fill it up and pay for the fuel - I believe in a full education!
Nigel Atkins

Nigel,
You would expect someone who first drove an MGB in 1963 to feel as you clearly do. Although things have changed a little; the 165 crossplies have become 185 radials, the wheel that cleaned itself on the driver's trousers or skirt is now smaller and those whose journey begins or ends in the city, have the unwelcome task of manoeuvring their pride and joy into ever tightening parking spaces (There is no other justification for power steering)I remain like you, unconvinced until I climb into my wife's BMW. Our question follows.
Your thoughts are appreciated - thanks.
Roger
Roger Walker

Hi Roger
I have seen kits here but havn't fitted or driven a 'B' equipped one myself but from what I've heard, the electronic column mounted kits are fantastic. A bloke I know here fitted one to his wife's car, a simple upper column replacement and it has an adjustable load so that by the twist of a knob you can adjust the assistance level from light down to almost non existant
I would recomend that if you go ahead that you make sure you get a kit with the adjuster so that you can tailor it to your needs/feel
willy

I'll see if I can find out what brand he has
and get back-----
William Revit

Willi - Great - very useful - thanks - R
Roger Walker

Fair enough Roger, 185 tyres are to me overwide considering the roadster (CB at least) had 155 tyres and if combined with a smaller steering wheel then yes it will be heavier.

At least the B is small compared with the monster trucks that pass for small cars now so have a little more margin in the shrinking parking spaces.

Will you be fitting electric windows oiling the winder mechanisms. :)

Just pulling your leg Roger, your car you do as you need or want.

You've probably already seen this with MGOC Spares, when I saw it I was confused as to which system they meant, presumably the mechanical (recommended). -

"The power steering conversion comprises either a mechanicial (recommended) or a modern electro hydraulic power steering pump/motor together with a new hydraulically assisted steering rack.
Resulting in greatly reduced effort required to steer when maneuvering at low speeds or when parking; and also provides virtually effortless control throughout long journeys whilst still retaining positive road feel.
When parking steering effort is reduced by a perceived 55%; that equates to an effort of only 4Nm; measured at the steering wheel nut."

Nigel Atkins

I can understand someone who is getting elderly or infirm contemplating power steering on an MGB in order to keep driving a much loved car, but not otherwise. If they can't cope with the steering how are they going to cope with the servicing, noise, ride, gear-change, brakes and everything else these days that modern cars have 'tuned' out, let alone the occasional indiscretions that an old lady can be forgiven.
paulh4

Paul, I think Roger is just letting the two new keen drivers use the B and he'll still be owning and maintaining the B. Perhaps they'll be helping out with servicing and maintenance to learn about such things.

Messed up my previous joke with missing the word 'or' (I blame this keyboard).


. . . be fitting electric windows or oiling the winder mechanisms. :)

Nigel Atkins

This is probably why Roger is asking for users, presumably of the new system, -

From page 10 of MGOC Accessories Catalogue 2019 - https://www.mgocspares.co.uk/flip/flipbook_acccat/?page=1

"Power Steering
FOR MGB, MGC, V8 & RV8
Acclaimed the most worthwhile upgrade yet for MGB, V8, RV8s & MGCs, our exclusive power steering kits incorporate variable valve technology to provide greater assistance when parking; reducing effort by a perceived 55% (4Nm when measured at the steering wheel nut), whilst retaining your MGs characteristic road feel at driving speeds. Designed and developed in conjunction with an accredited British specialist our power steering kits have been fitted to hundreds of vehicles helping owners continue to derive enjoyment from driving their classic. Supplied with simple step by step instructions our kits are suitable for home or garage workshop installation.

Test Report
“I have to say that it has transformed the car. It is no longer a wrestling match to change direction (or am I a wimp?) and my wife will be able to manage the car and will use it. I am not sure whether that is a good thing or bad! It makes the car more modern to drive.”
Ian Copcutt - Wolverhampton (MGB 1971)

Feel the benefits yourself! Book your test drive by calling +44 (0) 1954 231318."
Nigel Atkins

Interesting comments guys, mostly from people who have never tried an MGB with PAS. I fitted an EZ power steering column (made in the Netherlands) to my 1969 BGT V8 conversion a few years back and have never regretted it. My car has 195/70 x 15 tyres so there's quite a lot of rubber on the ground. The only downside was the cost. But there is a UK company now producing much the same thing for half the price. Is it as good? I've no idea.

Anyway, I fitted the EZ unit myself with phone assistance from their very helpful agent who is somewhere in SW Englandshire. Basically you replace the upper column with their column which comes with motor attached and all the wiring stuff you need. It wasn't a difficult job. I cut a small semi-circular piece out of the side of the centre console to accomodate the motor, and have mounted the rotary control there as well.

What's it like to drive? Just like an MGB curiously enough. I usually have the assistance set pretty low, and at all normal road speeds it is completely unobtrusive. But at walking and parking speed it is superb. I can twirl the wheel easily with no pain from my dodgy elbows. I wouldn't want to be without it. Recently I obtained a Dolomite 1850 which is a nice car to drive, but Oh so heavy park!

Oh, and if you are worried about safety, the mechanical connection from the steering wheel to the rack is unbroken, so if the electrics fail the car reverts to steering like an ordinary MGB.



Mike Howlett

You made an assumption there Mike but it can pass, in agreement with all you've put and now it makes senses about the mechanical being recommended.

No doubt your local road maintenance team appreciate your spreading the load with those tyres, we don't have that concern down here as road maintenance isn't much of a concern in this country. :)
Nigel Atkins

Nigel
"I think Roger is just letting the two new keen drivers use the B and he'll still be owning and maintaining the B. Perhaps they'll be helping out with servicing and maintenance to learn about such things."

Dead right..... and helping with the A and the V8 which they can't wait to get their hands on.

Mike,
Very interesting - thanks. I still have OE blockhuggers on the V8 and would be worried about heat but the 1800 is easier.

Paul,
I am with you and Nigel but it's like nuclear weapons - they can't be de-invented !

Roger
Roger Walker

But you can avoid pressing the button!
paulh4

Roger
Mike's system looks very much like the one available here
There isn't an issue with exhaust or anything under the bonnet as everything (the p/s unit) fits inside the car under the dash replacing only the upper column from the universal joint just on the otherside of the firewall up to the steering wheel---no hydraulics--electro/mechanical, just like a modern car-!
William Revit

Joking aside, I'm really pleased to see new drivers keen to drive classics and for Roger to give them this opportunity - and even more so if they're also going to help with servicing and maintenance. Only leaves nightly reading by them of the relevant Driver's Handbooks for me to be as happy as a Sus in excrement. :)
Nigel Atkins

I know some people have fitted the Corsa power column - that has an "interesting" potential danger - it's sensor can fail and either max out the assistance or cut it - not a good thing if negotiating a roundabout or bend in the wet!

No idea if the EZ unit has the same kind of sensor, but I prefer not to find out the hard way....
Chris at Octarine Services

So Chris wouldn't drive any modern car with electric steering in case the sensor failed??? Really?
Mike Howlett

Did he say that? I've lost power steering on the ZS a couple of times when it had a spate of cutting out at corners and that takes some effort to pull round, good job I have a couple of MGBs to keep my strength up. 'Modern' people would have no chance.
paulh4

I think it just comes down to what you're used to. I've only ever owned one vehicle with PAS - a Golf Mk3, that I bought for a 50/60 mile round trip every day. I'm sure I could have managed it without power assistance. My B Roadster sits on 195/70/14s and has a smaller steering wheel; my '50 Riley RM on 175/75/16s. My Messerschmitt KR200 not only didn't have PAS, but the steering was direct al la kart (to coin a phrase!). Not sure why the current Fiat 500, for example, needs it (£600 when it goes wrong!), but hey ho.

However, anything that encourages a new generation to drive our type of car has to be a good thing. The problem is that the Corsa they learnt to drive in had PAS, electric windows etc etc, so that's what they expect to find even in a fifty year old sports car. One of the young writers in Practical Classics magazine is currently installing electric PAS in his Morris 1000 using a proprietary kit.
Peter Allen

My 2014 Subaru Outback has a heavier steering than my 79 MGB. I cannot imagine the lack of steering "feel" in a power assisted "B"

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

That's the beauty of electro mechanical power steering, it's not like the old school power steering, in a straight line when the steering wheel isn't moving there is 0 power steering and the steering feels like a normal unassisted car, it only works as you need it and the control unit senses the rate and load and does the job---I think you will find that these units,including the EZ (Mikes) have a failsafe for if the sensor or anything to do with the controller dies whereas they revert to limp mode giving 10% assistance at all times AND there is a monster capacitor in the controller so that if this does happen it's not a bang and you're out thing ,it slips into limp mode gradually---In a worst case fault where all power is lost the steering reverts to non assisted (std MGB in this case)--foolproof
It's a lot better system than anything hydraulic, specially the safety side of it if it fails--------------but it won't

Roger
nearly all the small Japanese cars have gone to this system Suzuki,Kia etc, if you wanted to try one go for a testride in one--or take Mike's advice and just do it
It's only money Ha ha ha ha

William Revit

The downside of the "electric power steering", if te battery is weak, the steering goes out. I work at a Mazda dealership, here in sunny hot Florida and batteries have a short life here. When the battery dies, the steering quits. Even when the car is jump started, there is not enough charge in the battery to operate the power steering with all accessories off.

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

That's interesting Gary. Thinking about it, the EZ system has a 40 amp fuse so the current draw must be considerable. My battery is over ten years old but everything works....so far!
Mike Howlett

You need the kit from Gio Delicio which is based on a Nissan Micra unit. I has a significant advantage over the cross unit in that it has a failsafe mode, so never can leave you in unexpected peril as long as it has power. It's also simple to make it vary the level of assistance dynamically according to speed without using a rheostat on the dashboard. I have one in my MGA and it delights everyone that drives it.

Look at the write up in MGAguru.com Gio has made some significant improvements since my early kit, and his unit is much cheaper than the EZ kit. https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/steering/sr302.htm

The fitting for an early B is the same as an MGA. If it is a later car with column mounted switches you need to talk to a different guy in the UK
http://www.simonebirchall.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWk7XYYK_EY

Dominic Clancy

Mike Howlett said :

"So Chris wouldn't drive any modern car with electric steering in case the sensor failed??? Really? "

I drive lots of cars with PAS but I don't throw them into tight turns like I do the V8!

My comment was re the Corsa unit, I have no knowledge of the vulnerabilities of other units, but being "old school" myself I prefer the hydraulic system which can also have variable assistance.
Chris at Octarine Services

i have Easysteer on 72 B. about £500 self fit.

pain to fit, but well worth it.

have not lost any feel whilst driving but can park one handed. can turn the wheel stationary with 1 finger.

would not like to be without it now.

G
Graham Moore

Gary
If the Mazda p/s is the same as the Mazda p/s here, then it's electric/hydraulic-----? and yes on those the steering goes HEAVY-but with the electro/mechanical, even without any power to it at all it will go to std MGB steering---it's foolproof
Dominic
I've heard of the Micra unit being used
Coming from Japan like most of them seem to I suspect that they are all versions of the same EPAS unit used by several manufacturers there - Probably a TRW unit the same as VW Polo and Fiat 500 uses - maybe

They are miles ahead of hydraulic stuff for feel and safety -no belts to break or pumps and hoses to leak -
William Revit

Willy
I believe the Mazdas are electro-hydraulic P/S. The battery really needs to be charged or the steering seizes up. I had it happen several times when I relocated cars that were parked for long periods with a dead or very weak battery.

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

Chris

I wrote rubbish. Gio's kit is based on a Toyota Yaris pair, not the Nissan Micra. This appears to be almost the same unit as used in the early Prius.

The variable assistance is easy to get on the Yaris unit - four magnet collar on the diff flange, a hall sensor to provide the pulses, and this gives pretty much the ideal square wave and frequency to the VSS pin on the Yaris EPS controller to make it dynamic and variable without tweaking rheostats. I have full assistance at low speed and almost none after 90 kph

I have a full installation write up ready for and will send to Barney for an update to his page, but would recommend a Yaris based kit any time

And optically nothing looks different...
Dominic Clancy

Gary
The Mazda sounds like same as here then
They mount the pump in a dumb place, lost count of how many of them I've replaced, they're right up the front behind the bumper on the corner, as soon as you hit a Roo or something they get smashed off, luckily they still work hanging there on the wiring/hoses

The most interesting one I've had the "pleasure" of meeting is the F series Ford unit- Power steering and hydraulic brake booster ,both driven off the power steering pump, but the brakes have preferance
Normally not an issue as the p/s has an accumulator for backup-BUT- if you are parking an auto transmission equipped one where you're backing in and turning the wheel, if you have your foot on the brake a bit to control your parking speed after a few wiggles on the steering the accumulator runs out and the steering goes rock hard, then you have to let the brake off to recharge the steering---a real pain if you're in a tight spot on a slope
William Revit

Roger,

Now that my wife and I are in our (70's) we have thought about a similar solution for our B/GT. One option I've considered is this castor correction kit (Frontline) sold by Moss here. Perhaps someone here has installed the kit, and can comment?

https://mossmotors.com/mgb/suspension-steering/castor-correction-kit

Regards,

Larry C.
LC

I had a castor correction kit on my MGB, not the Frontline one but the one sold over here by Brown & Gammons. I have removed it. It really didn't make much difference to the steering effort but made the car seem more twitchy at speed.
Mike Howlett

Golly, Larry, that's a lot of greenbacks for a pair of wedges! Obviously, Frontline have put a lot of effort into the R & D on these, and maybe I'm missing something here, but couldn't the same effect be achieved by shallow spacers between the crossmember and chassis leg front bolts (presume this is castor reduction)?
Peter Allen

I assume the wedges take account of the angle between the crossmember and the chassis rails that flat spacers at one end wouldn't. I can imagine the bolts becoming less tight over time as things change shape on account of point loadings instead of spread loadings.

A pal installed the wedges (brand not known) and also didn't notice any lightening of the steering. At best they are only going to have a noticeable effect when moving, none at a standstill.
paulh4

Since the crossmember is mounted on square rubber pads round each bolt the centre of the crossmember isn't supported anyway - the wedges between the pads will be doing absolutely nothing.

Just a way to make extortionate money out of people. The slotted wedge allows it to be slid in without completely removing the bolts but a steel plate with a slot would do exactly the same job for pennies.
Chris at Octarine Services

Brown & Gammons do a kit for £35 - https://www.ukmgparts.com/product/mgb-midcat-6-submgb22-front-suspension/castor-reduction-kit-mgb-62-81-ahh6195castor
Chris at Octarine Services

Increasing tyre pressures would help a bit. The factory setting seem a bit low in comparison to modern vehicle settings. The MX5 (Miata) Mk1 was 26psi (I think). Mine are set around 30psi, which seems about right for me (Roadster on 195/70/14 Uniroyal RainExperts attached to 6" Revolutions, low level suspension mods).
Peter Allen

I am particularly interested in this thread. I am in my mid 70s and suffer from arthritis in my hands and wrists. I have owned Bs for fifty years and now experience pain when driving my present cars.
I have the Frontline kit fitted to both cars and although it lightens the steering a little it is by no means the answer. It would seem to me that the answer is electric speed sensitive steering however the cost in my case for two cars would be quite significant.
I know very little about camber and castor but would the weight of the steering be increased by lowered suspension or negative vcamber wishbones ?
g a f carr

I fitted a caster reduction kit about 9 years ago, one of the B+G type. Prior to fitting, on twisty roads the steering would get increasingly heavy as speed increased. I was concerned straight line stability would be compromised but I haven’t noticed any difference. As mentioned it doesn’t make any difference at parking speeds but once on the move it’s fine.

When I first got the car it had a 13 inch Mota Lita fitted, this didn’t suit the car, it made the steering very heavy and I couldn’t see the water/oil and fuel gauges without moving my head. I refitted a standard 15 inch wheel which solved these issues.

I fitted the Mota Lita to a Midget and it worked perfectly, I’m sure it added 10mph to the top speed :-)

I’ve got an MGF / TF EPAS unit and considered trying to fit this, more as a challenge than need but decided against it because it would have meant using the short intermediate shaft that has 2 UJ’s in it. I would have needed to support the existing shaft below the UJ and as I’m not unhappy with the current setup I didn’t go ahead with it.
R.A Davis

Larry, I should have said that we have tried the Frontline wedges and as has been pointed out here, they don't help while parking. We have tried higher tyre pressures too but less than happy about the effect on handling.

We too have found this thread very interesting. We are now looking at each of the kits in detail. Sadly at £1800 the Dutch kit is beyond us. More anon

GAFC - Arthritis catches us all - a real b++++r !

Thanks are in order - to everyone here - for valuable comment - much appreciated.

Roger
Roger Walker

I built my own EPAS for my V8 roadster using the Corsa C unit and a late model MGB column, previously I had the castor wedges, not much improvement and I reckoned I lost most of the self -centering.

My electronics friend has tuned the assistance using something called an Arduino, it can be re-programmed to change the amount of assistance,depending on roadspeed still playing with it, not totally satisfied with the self centering.

If anybody's interested in the "how I did it" e-mail me and I'll send you details with costings.
Mike Barnfather

Great to hear from you Mike, and to hear that you are still playing with your V8. I hope you get the PAS sorted to your liking. Mine with no castor wedges and the EZ kit is exactly how I have always wanted it to be, at last!
Mike Howlett

Hi Mike
Nice to hear from you too, fine tuning only required , it is over assisted at the moment, and the self-centering requires some thought, just wasn't prepared to ay the prices asked for EPAS units.
Mike Barnfather

Mike(B)
I've never driven a B with p/s so not an expert at all but have thought at times that if the steering was too light with power assist that it would be an interesting little experiment to fit a set of caster wedges in around the other way - This would give a monster caster angle around 10deg.,big, but not unheard of - The result 'should' give good self centreing and directional stability on the road, which 'should' compensate for a possibly over assisted p/s system - The theory being that good road feel would be produced but still have the extra p/s for low speed maneuvering/parking
If you've still got your wedges it might be worth a try-------------------------?
or not
A v8B is lighter in the front than a 4 so might benefit from the extra caster--

willy
William Revit

This thread was discussed between 28/05/2019 and 16/06/2019

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