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MG MGB Technical - Progress on Alex's 1950cc crossflow

For the latest pics go to -

http://www.octarine-services.fsnet.co.uk/alex1950.htm
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,

Great pictures.

I notice you use primer on your block and then a top coat. Is it a special heat resistant primer?

I am not aware of this being common practice, people just seem to slap the engine paint straight on.

David
David Witham

I use a primer - then the colour coat - and then a clear coat to protect the colour and the zinc plated bolts.

You'll see the effect on the completed engine.

No I don't use engine paints - I use ordinary acryllics that you use to paint cars.

These will easily withstand the 100 degree centigrade that the engine reaches - just think of the temperature of a dark coluored car in full sunshine!

The maroon I use is actually VW Gambia red and is a dead ringer for the original paint - more than can be said fo some "engine" paints!
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,

Thank you very much!
I'm starting to feel like a little kid, a few weeks before Christmas ;-)...

Considering the setting up of the carbs, Andre advised Dirk Goris in Antwerp (so he's not so far from you dutch members too). I had a rather long talk with him and he seems very professional.

Alex
Alexander M

Chris,

What kind of power are you expecting from that engine? And how much does it cost?

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Joe,

About 110 bhp at the wheels or 140 bhp at the engine - around the same as a factory V8!

Around £2450 with the HRG crossflow head modified by Peter Burgess to his large valve fast road spec.
Chris at Octarine Services

Great Photos, I'm jealous, looks like a thing of beauty. I'm about to rebuild mine, but not monster size!
J Moore

A worthy opponent to the supercharging crowd!
Steve Simmons

Chris-
I'd figure that 140HP at the top end might just be a somewhat conservative estimate. However, the real beauty of the Derrington head is the big boost in mid-range torque. Which camshaft is installed in it?
Steve S.

Piper BP285 I believe.

Steve, are you saying you would expect more power from this engine?
Steve Simmons

Chris,

please excuse my ignorance, but is acrylic the same as 2 pack? I assume you spray it on rather than brush.

David
David Witham

Bit off topic, but can anyone explain the difference between the MSX and the HRG Crossflow heads..?

Is one better than the other..? I assume a chap such as P. Burgess could work some magic on both types! ;->

Thanks.

~PHIL
Phil

Phil,

The difference is that the HRG Derrington crossflow heads were the 'original' ones (first made during the 60s for the MGA and the MGB). (this is the one I have)
Later on (I believe mid 90s) there was a batch of improved HRG Derrington heads made (with the cooperation of a certain Peter Burgess) and sold through Brown and Gammons, but this one is unavailable since a couple of years too.
The MSX is a replica of the original Derrington (if I am not mistaken).

fwiw,

Alexander
Alexander M

David,

Acrylic is a one pack paint and yes, I spray the engines.

Steve,

It may be conservative, but I believe that the MGB drivetrain only loses around 30 BHP - not the 50 or 60 that some rolling road operators and engine vendors would have you believe so that your engine BHP figures look good!

110 bhp at the wheels gives a pretty rapid MGB compared with the standard 65 bhp.

At the end of the day it is the power delivered to the wheels that accelerates the car and the engine power is just a bar room topic!
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris/Alex

Do you envisage any effects of the flat topped pistons (which i must say looked fab in the bores!) ??

11:1 CR is a very high figure - is that a function of the head (breathing etc), the alloy instead of iron, or just bare-faced cheek??! ;->

Cheers - interesting engine!

~PHIL
Phil

The CR is high because of the alloy head - it is better at conducting heat away so can run a high CR compared with the cast iron head.

The flat topped pistons and high compression height provide plenty of "Squish", promoting turbulence and an even burn.
Chris at Octarine Services

Phil-
Contrary to popular belief, The MSX head is not a true replica of the Derrington head, the production rights of which belong to its manufacturer. Amongst other differences, the ports of the Derrington head have a more generous bottom radius where it turns into the port throat, making it easier to modify for maximum flow. The combustion chambers of the MSX head are the same Weslake design as the Original Equipment cast iron heads, while those of the Derrington head are similar but incorporate certain features of the "bathtub" type combustion chamber to compensate for the crossflow position of the intake ports and create greater turbulance. They also are of greater volume. The hot water takeoff port of the Derrington head is in the same position as the Original Equipment hot water port, while that of the MSX head is at the rear. The quality of the casting is obviously superior in the Derrington head. There are other detail differences, but these are the most significant ones. Perhaps it would be best to describe the MSX head as a Derrington design that's been changed enough to get around the patent laws to avoid a lawsuit. Unfortunately, the design changes result in a product whose performance potential is inferior to that of the original.
Steve S.

So it produces no more power than a modified 1950cc with a cast iron head.

There is NO way I can convince myself to spend that kind of money on a B series that just doesn't want to produce power.

As soon as my insurance comes down I am going to have to sell up and buy a V8. After seeing them in action at the Goodwood track day, I have realised there is no point in spending money on my B.

Very nice and fast V8!
http://www.mgs-on-track.com/images/uploads/113.jpg

Me in my B.
http://www.mgs-on-track.com/images/uploads/122.jpg

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Joe-
The real advantage to the Derrington head is increased mid-range torque. Reworked by an expert such as Peter Burgess you can expect a 40% increase over stock at 3,000 RPM. High-RPM power output can be a bit better than a reworked 5-port cast iron head, all of which will put you into MGC territory without the nose-heavy handling. A well-developed Rover V8 will put it to shame for all-out power output, so the real reason for building a Big Bore Derrington engine is to have the ultimate B-Series engine. Some people (like me, for example) just love that little old four banger!
Steve S.

My mildly tweaked 3.6 V8 puts out as much power at 2200 rpm as this 1950 X flow at 5400 rpm.

You just can't compare the two engines - the 1950 might be full fat milk, but the V8 is pure double cream!
Chris at Octarine Services

I like cream!
Joseph Phillips

Allow me to explain:

1) I have always had a soft spot for '60s stuff. After reading about the 'mysterious' hrg derrington crossflow, I got very interested. To me, it's not just a modification, it's a mod with a little (a lot actually) extra. I try not to install stuff that wasn't available back then (okok, the electronic ignition wasn't). Why? No good reason at all really... Just nostalgia I guess.

2)Things in Belgium are a bit different than they are in the UK or the US. We are NOT allowed to install any other engine than the original type, unless we have factory approval (how big is that chance???).
Anyway, as I did NOT want to give up driving with the roof down, there was not much to choose from...

Mind you, a factory V8 is on my list though ;-), but I don't think the xflow is going anywhere without me in it for a long time!

(hope this explains a bit)

Alexander
Alexander M

"but I don't think the xflow is going anywhere without me in it for a long time!"

- better not let Lisalotte get hold of the keys then..... 8-)
Chris at Octarine Services

With Supercharger experimentation at an all-time high, does anyone have an opinion of how this engine compares to a properly setup engine with a Moss supercharger kit? Very interesting thread here.
Steve Simmons

The Moss supercharger kit claims to provide 40% more power on a STANDARD engine - less on a tuned one.

That is 95 x 1.4 = 133 bhp or about 103 at the wheels.

So for your £2300 you get a fancy bit of ally bolted on your existing engine which probably produces less power than the crossflow at £2450 which is a fully rebuilt and balanced engine.

To compare costs properly you would have to add the cost of a full rebuild to the supercharger costs - raising them to £3000.
Chris at Octarine Services

I have driven only one Moss supercharged B and it was done very nicely with a recent engine rebuild, Crane cam, .040(I think) overbore, etc. by a long-time MG enthusiast. While it was a good bit stronger than a stock B, there is absolutely no comparison to my crossflow car. I'm running a .060 over 18GB with a 10.56:1 CR and 45DCOEs with an MSX cam. I had just finished my engine upgrade when Moss announced the supercharger and, man, was I bummed! I was ready to sell my MSX stuff and buy a Moss blower until I drove one.
David
David

Chris

Power about right from what i have seen of power curves from both Hans and Moss. I worked out that its going to cost around, to just over £3k to build a s/c engine here in UK using some parts shipped from abroad.

A few tweaks to the cylinder head (specific to a head for use with supercharger, i.e. larger exhaust valves, ported etc) would hopefully raise the power to close to your quoted 110hp at rear wheels for the Xflow.

I think the two would drive reasonably close, both engines giving much increased torque over standard. However i think the tuning potential of the Xflow is greater than the s/c for a B engine specifically - most of this coming from the head and twin webers.

I am still in a real quandry which to build... On the one hand i am intrigued by the huge potential of the Xflow, however i have wanted to s/c my car since long before Moss came up with the idea and it REALLY gets me going! ;-> Decisions decisions.....

~PHIL
Phil

Seems to me that if you don't want to go down the V8 route then the sensible option is to use the later successor to the B series and fit a 2 litre M16 - it comes with a twin overhead cam and crossflow 4 valve cylinder setup that Peter Burgess says is difficult to improve on and produces 140 bhp in standard form!
Chris at Octarine Services

Anyone looked at turbo-charging? I had a quick read of an article copareing turbos to scs recently; the turbo has an advantage as it is not a mechanical drag on the engine. It does provide more back pressure in the exhaust which has a performance cost.
AndyT

Chris,

Whats the M16? what car was it in?

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

How about the x-flow setup with a supercharger? Could this work or would the required CR mess up the deal?
Terry

WAs run in the Rover 820, can be bought cheapas chips.

Bear in mind however i think you have to take out the heater box to fit in a B as mods needed to firewall. Roger Parker of MGOC fitted one and he sent me some pics once. Not sure if i still have them though as i had to reformat hard drive recently i lost a lot of stuff i could not back up.

However a recent car mag such as Retro, or possibly EMG had one of the pics in there as a possible alternative to B series.

HTH ~PHIL
Phil

There are issues with the M16 - the distributor wants to sit where the heater is and the oil filter where the front crossmember is and the water pump where the engine mount is.

Nothing insurmountable and several cars run with them - I am working on a kit to do the conversion as a straight bolt on change with no body mods, but it will be some time yet before I will be marketing it.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,

Do any of the problems with the M16 change if you use the later T16.

David
David Witham

Ahh, is it a good engine? I have heard that its not the most relaibel in the world.

Cheers joe
Joseph Phillips

Chris,

Hurry up with that conversion, hehe! Sounds good to me as V8's are proving difficult to insure.

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Joe,

Are you talking about the M16 or T16 or both. The differences are not great anyway.

I have had 2 cars with turbocharged T16 engines. The first one I ran up to 75000 miles with no problems and the second one I am still running at 106,000 miles.

David
David Witham

David,

Don't know! Can you get an N/A T16? As I don't want a turbo.

Is it a cast iron block? Are parts for the engine easy to get?

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Will the M16 run OK on Weber 45's?

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Joe,

Yes most T16 engines are n/a.

I think it is iron block with alloy head.

The change over from M16 to T16 was about the time the mark 2 version of the Rover 800 replaced the mark one version. I believe the main changes were head related but I am not sure.

At a guess I would say that there are more T16s out there than M16s.

Motobuild are supplier of go faster paarts for them.

Rover's L? series diesel engine as used in the 25/ZR, 45/ZS and Freelander are based on the M16/T16 which was based on the O series which was based on the B series.

David
David Witham

Joe,

Given the correct manifold and enough space plus a suitable management system the answer is yes.

I believe that all original equipment applications of the M16/T16 were fuel injection.

The only none Rover application that comes to mind is the Morgan plus 4 which used the engine for a number of years.

David
David Witham

Think you'll find it will be *easier* as in the K series to run the M/T16 as its FI set up. Certainly for out of the box motoring that would be the case. I don't think from what i have read about K series conversions there are any problems with adapting the loom to take the FI system, its self contained.

As Chris says, anything is achievable.

~PHIL
Phil

The only reason is that I have the carbs so I could put them to use.

If I had to use the fuel injection then I know I would want a TB kit and a mapable ECU........which is all ka-ching!

Just wondered if it was possible to keep the costs down.

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Yes, twin SUs have been fitted to the M16 on a special manifold, so twin DCOEs should be possible. The ECU is retained using an O2 backplate, sensor and flywheel to drive the ignition.

Differences with the T16 are minor and I use some T16 parts in the kit, plus an L type oil pump and the O2 sump and parts mentioned above - the hybrid result uses all bolt on parts with the minimum of specials.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,

How long do you think it will be before you get your conversion kit marketed?

What gearbox would be the best to use?

What kind of reliable power will I be able to get out of a M16/T16?

If I was to go ahead with the conversion I would get the engine rebuilt, lightened and balanced, have some work done on the cylinder head.......etc

However, where would I source cams for this engine? Would I just have to have reprofiled ones or is it a commonly tuned engine with performance mods available?

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Would I not be better off fitting a K series? All ideas at the moment.

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

Well..... it's been on the back burner for some time ...... depends on how busy people keep me with B series engines!

Gearbox - you can use the standard B or A box or fit the Rover 5 speed or any of the Ford 5 speed conversions (at a price!)

I reckon the recon engine & kit price will work out around £1600. PB reckons there is no point doing head work - he thinks there is only another 5% to be had in flow.

I am exploring cam options with Piper.
Chris at Octarine Services

Chris,

Is it straight forward to mate an MGB gearbox to the M/T16. Are we in the area of just a special back plate?

Joe,

The T16 turbo gives you 180 or 200bhp as standard depending on which version you use. There are some of them in breakers yards. The turbo kit will inevitably make fitting the engine more complicated. The people who drop these engines into Montegos and Maetros talk about 250bhp.

Of course the attraction of either crossflow heads of supercharges on a B is limited disruption to the rest of the car when compared with a V8. So I guess that for a M/T16 convertion to appeal it needs to to have that advantage as well.

I have gone on for long enough now

David
David Witham

Yes, just a tweaked backplate - still looking into the various gearbox / flywheel / starter motor combinations.
Chris at Octarine Services

So is the T16 a better option than the K series? I would want a naturally aspirated T16 not a turbo.

Plus I like the idea of a 5 speed box.

Cheers Joe
Joseph Phillips

someone asked supercharged on a crossflow head?
Yes since 1964. Check this link of my engine. presently restoring the original race car. Also building another engine with twin webers on another HRG head. Hope the link works.
http://groups.msn.com/WinnipegSportsCarClub/mgbghost.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=3495
mgadams

Mgadams,

What are the specifications of your 'unaspirated' crossflow engine? How is it going to be used(road/track)?
Do you have any pictures?

Greetz,

Alex
Alexander M

Btw, Chris,

Any ideas on how to keep Lisa from driving my car? ;-) (it is kinda hard to say no to her you know...)

Alex
Alexander M

Alex,
I uploaded a couple more pictures in this album. There is an article about the 1964 version of the engine with the twin webers and HRG head, with a very small picture. I could also send you a direct email attachment if you can't read it.

Mike Adams

http://groups.msn.com/WinnipegSportsCarClub/mgbghost.msnw?albumlist=2
MGAdams

HOO-WHEE! MGAdams did you ever dyno that thing?
Terry

Chris, that engine is a work of art and is surely the lovliest B-series I've ever seen. It's a shame it'll be shut away under a bonnet most of the time! Can't wait to see the final pics, and some of it in the car.

Have I asked you lot of would-be engine swappers to watch this space recently? :o)

ttfn,
--
Olly
Oliver Stephenson

Mike- Got any leftover castings on the x-flow to Eaton (?). Did you adapt an existing? Vic
vem myers

I'd guess he got it that way, check out the bonnet bulge in the race photo. What a find! For an I-4, this is surely the way to go. The alloy head lets you run more compression and you get more from the blower.

BTW, those Moss kits run pretty low boost levels, which makes perfect sense for a kit. But once you have your tuning sorted out it's easy enough to swap pulleys and boost the output as much as you dare. The one thing that I've found very surprising about running a blower with poorly flowing heads, which you would not expect to be a great idea, is that you can let the ports limit the boost and overdrive the dickens out of the blower, giving high and early boost at low speeds for a great street machine. Makes a very wide flat torque curve that I doubt you could get any other way. Well, actually that's not true, no reason why you couldn't do the same thing with a crossflow head and a very low lift cam with minimal overlap and get good mileage in the bargain. Eventually I'll get it on the dyno and find out exactly what's there.

Jim
Jim Blackwood

Mike A

Is that a picture of the Gimlee Glider on your site?

BarryQ
73B
B.J. Quartermaine

Vem, Jim and B.J.
I will try to answer your questions with an older post I took out of the archives ... I don't post much here.
Vem - only one ever intake to the CAMDEN Supercharger.
Jim - yes I got the project already completed.
B.J. - Yes that is Gimli, I used to race Formula Ford there.
From the Archive;
My mod was already done ... in 1964, on a 1962mgb roadster as a proto-type race car and I am still collecting information about what was actually done and haven't cracked open the engine for all the details. My knowledge of the SuperB is limited and I am gathering supercharger info all the time.
What I know;
- the Supercharger was a Camden Supercharger first generation (stolen from the car long ago and now extinct)
- the Carb was a simple Holley for in-line blower
- my set up is on an original HRG crossflow head
- my intake is a one of a kind fabricated by John Camden and is a beautiful piece of work.
- the present engine is a high compression ... even I know high compression won't work but the last owner didn't and only managed a half a race lap before he blew-up.
- the company CamdenSuperchargers.com still exists, but they don't use the same casting for the Blower any longer and I was trying to maintain originality. They are approachable about building the cross-flow set-up for MGB's, but they wanted my entire set-up for a proto-type ... and I am reluctant to send.
- I purchased a second generation Camden Supercharger off E-Bay that will do the trick with a little machining.
What I have been told by the previous owners
- the car was a winning racer and intimidated all in its class
- the block should have been o-ringed
- the pistons were special rounded edge
- compression was 8-1
- they started the car with super-hot plugs(champion N3G), raced with cooler plugs(N9G)
- previous racers say the car ran 20 pounds of boost, but I have my doubts and certainly won't start with near that amount of boost.

I am working a lot from pictures only and have posted most I have on a Winnipeg Sports Car Club site. I actually live in Regina, Saskatchewan.

Update
I have now located an earlier version of the race engine parts in the car and will be building two engines. The earlier version is another HRG head (high compression) and twin 40dcoe webers. I will likely install the twin weber version and build the supercharged version for display on an engine stand. Canadians may recognize the car as owned and driven by AL PEASE. The intention is for the car and engine to be placed in a museum once completed. The driver, the car and the supercharged engine are all historically significant to the 60's Canadian Racing scene. The suspension and tub have been restored and the coachwork is ready for a paint shop this winter. The engine(s) will be cracked this winter.

Mike Adams
p.s - sorry for the long post, but the answers about this car/engine are not simple to respond to. The Gimli Glider would take another page!
MGAdams

This thread was discussed between 10/11/2003 and 18/11/2003

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