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MG MGB Technical - Quality of BMH body panels

I recently had the unfortunate experience of having to have a new BMH produced front wing fitted to my 67 B roadster. Firsty I use the word fitted very loosely, because frankly it didn't fit at all. It was mis-shaped, holes in the wrong place, headlamp aperature so badly distorted that fitting of bowl required modifications to wing and bowl. Holes for sidelight were in the wrong place, the welding and dressing of the whole panel was a complete disgrace. The fact that it was produced in the U.K. really embarasses me, or did I get the last one produced on Friday, is this common? Are we, as aftermarket buyers getting all the rubbish that BMH can't use on their own shells?
Anyone had a similar experience?
Do we have to put up with it, or should we encourage suppliers to send back inferior parts, to force an improvement.
Look forward to your comments
Regards
Graham










Graham

Graham, I have no direct experience with BMH but I do recall a few years back now the trials MG World had in doing a reshell of an MGB for their magazine.

The body had a number of captive nuts with incorrect threads. Totally inexcuseable.
I also saw one displayed here in Australia and some of the panel fit and finish was simply appalling.

As I said that was a number of years ago but it seems like the same lack of Quality Control which was about when MG closed their doors is still there whilst the rest of the world has moved on.

This truly is a shame since it will mean even more 'B's , Mini's, TR6's and so on going to the scrapyard instead of being given a new lease of life all because someone thought it was all too hard.

Cheers, Pete.
Peter Thomas

I can confirm that the panel fit and general attention to detail during assembly on new shells leaves a lot to be desired. Captive nuts missing and a few that fell off when cleaning the paint out with a tap were the least of my problems. The cone on the bulkhead for the steering column was (and still is) some ½ inch out of place and the radiator supports were so far off that they had to be cut off and re-welded to allow the radiator to fit. I accept that the panel presses and jigs are old and worn but considering that these shells are handmade by craftsmen the quality is appalling.

Not only have BMH recreated the shells but they have also recreated the 70’s quality – or lack of it!

Geoff
Geoff King

Why should anyone be surprised by this.

The reason why the British car industry is now so good is because the scum bags who wrecked it in the '70's were fired along with the useless management which failed to manage, and the Japs arrived with build quality.

Compare the Mazda MX5 to the MGB. No contest.

The only thing which gets this sort of thing moving is the crack of the whip, and as we are all now supposed to be nice to one another in this PC world, cracking the whip means getting mad with the vendors who are happy to pass on rubbish to the end user.

An almighty fuss should be created along with threats of a writ, let the expense for all this fall on the lazy perpetrators of such a disgraceful situation.

If you want a case study, turn to the thread Legal Stuff for a tale of some poor sucker who seems to have spent a lifetime sorting his plating out, and they still had the cheek to demand payment.

What this website needs is a blacklist of bad vendors, now there's a great idea, my porridge must be feeding my brain this morning.
Tom

Interesting. I was trying to find out what the deal was with the BMH bodyshells. Almost sounds like it would be a better idea to buy something that does not have the running gear and restore that. Then put my bits into that.

Does anyone know if the BMH bodyshell is available here in the States? If so, any clue on price? Someone said to me that they didn't think so because of shipping damage problems.

Thanks!
Jason
1970 mgb roadster
Jason

I priced a shell through Vicky Brit back in about 1996 or so after I got rear-ended. As I recall, the shell, freight, and crating charge put it in at over $5000. At that time I recall them saying they had "a few" in stock. I doubt they got more once those sold.... Seems like I heard rumours that MiniMania had some.

Unfortunately, the car ('69 roadster) is still rear-ended. I'm considering replacing the left rear corner and rear body panel if I can't finish pounding the current ones out to my satisfaction. Graham said the front wing fit was horrible. Anyone had any experience with BMH rear quarters?

Cheers!
Rob Edwards

Re Tom, boston, Lincs -- Before you bad mouth Brit craftsmanship by comparing it to a newer Mazda you should have some real experience with the latter.
In the mid seventies I had the misfortune of having a couple dozen of new Mazda's for sale and I guarantee you a bigger piece of crap was never shipped to the U.S. And I'll even put the Yugo ahead of it. But that is just my experience, yours may differ.
jim

I have just done all 4 corners and found the BMH panels to be very good, the only problem out of doing, sills floors rear spring hangers scuttle front and rear valences ( I kept on asking myself, is a reshell easier!), was the inner rear arches, the curve is a hard one to get sorted so that it fits the rear of the sills and wings. The rear wings are very good quality, and the fronts bolted up first time with only a little filler needed to close the seam to scuttle ( which I changed so probably I fitted it slightly off to one side )
Tatty

A friend of mine went into a BL dealer to complain about the rust on his brand new B.

The salesman said 'what do you expect, we want to sell you a new one next year so we can't have yours lasting too long, can we.'

We in England remember the sight of Red Robbo, the communist 'what else' shop steward standing on his soapbox in the BL car park calling another strike over nothing, and yes the BL management allowed it to happen, and the govt did damn all.

Along came the Japs, and suddenly we had 3 or 6 year warranties, even anti corrosion warranties, all because there was suddenly a competitive alternative.

No import competition, no effort to excel, just the usual take it or leave it attitude.

You should have tasted a British burger before Ronald MacDonald arrived. UGGGHHHH !!!! A wimp Wimpey.

The reason these panels are so bad is because Heritage are allowed to charge an arm and a leg for comparative rubbish.

jim , phoenix is right, the Japs were initially awful, but guess which car plant was voted the number 1 in the whole world, this year,dear old Nissan in Sunderland, England, and yes it is managed by the Brits, but operates under Japanese rules etc.

Tom

A body shop manager told me that he did a heritage shell for someone, and they had to spend a wek sorting it out prior to getting it ready for painting.

Poor fit and alignment were the major problems, I think.

Someone else I was talking to said under no circumstances, allow a vendor to ship a shell without prior personal inspection, because you can literally pick out a good, reasonably good, or a lemon with the greatest of ease.

Once its shipped, you're the lemon.
Alex

Tom

If you're so dissatisfied with the UK why not emigrate?

Christopher Storey
chris

there's a gentleman in a town close to me who makes his life rebuilding MG's and Mini's. it's all he'll work on. perhaps, if anyone is interested, contacting him he might know of a place to get shells and what not to help your rear ended and also those who want to "build up" their B's. if you're interested, email me and i'll forward the info and list of people and shops i call about this.

Best of Luck,
D G Smith II
D G Smith II

It is always the fault of poor old Red Robbo! To my knowledge all he did was suggest that the working man deserved a better deal, quiet frankly most of us in the working class agreed with him. The problem was that these tradesmen were working in a cottage industry staved of investment in people and tools. It was testimony to their skill that we were able to produce anything at all let alone a world beating sportscar. Micheal Edwards tried to bring the industry into the 20th century but a backward thinking government and internal political ambitions of certain directors prevented him, for crying out loud the industry needed the MGB replacement, but the cretinous directors chose the TR7! Tom if you believe we, in the British working class are crap and you are somehow way above us, then I suggest you stop being a parrasite on our backs and go somewhere far away.
Bob

Check http://www.bmh-ltd.com/bmhspa.html for a list of US suppliers.

For me one major advantage of buying a complete new shell was the anticorrosion treatment. The shells are manufactured from double zinc coated steels, immersed into a tank of etch primer and the underside coated with anti-stone chip and underseal. You can’t do this with new wings, doors, sills etc.

What is wrong is the quality control for the assembly. A quote from the BMH web site “All completed bodyshells pass through the hands of skilled craftsmen who fit the front wings, doors, boot lid, bonnet and front valance in specially constructed finishing bays. This ensures the accurate alignment and of the outer skin panels, making the finished cars look exactly as they should”. None of panels were ‘fitted’ to my shell, they were attached with the nuts, bolts and hinges but they were not fitted. The RH door, for instance, was so far out of alignment that the door rubbed the sill.

Would I buy another? Yes. I will leave others to decide whether build quality, or lack of, is the responsibility of the management or the tradesman but I managed to get the panels to fit and so could anyone else.

Geoff
Geoff King

Bob misses the point, and Geoff is nearer to it.

Management was useless, or culpable, witness Enron today, and patently failed to do its duty.

The problem was not with the 'honest working man' but with the traitorous shop stewards who would have sold this country down the river to the communists in that workers paradise, the Soviet Union.

Think of the contrast between East and West Germany when the Berlin Wall came down. Was that put up to prevent the West Berliners escaping to the fabulous east. I don't think so.

The first step the Soviets would have done is to line those 'useful fools' as Lenin once said of collaborators, up against the nearest wall and shoot the poor suckers.

May I remind us of the great service that arch traitor Arthur Scargill did for the mining industry, he decimated it.

I want the consumer to be King, and the best way I know of getting that is good old fashioned competition, and where we get poor sevice , poor quality and outrageous prices, let them go bust.

I also agree with Geoff's comments re Triumph.

But why get personal, I'm merely expressing a view.
Tom

Gentleman;
Have two brand new fenders which I fit on my 63 B and they fit like they were made for it. As I remmember the main Union problems were with Tr not MG. We were for ever having part and car shortages with TR. But the MGs just kept comeing in. My only compliant is the lowering of quality tward the end. ala the captive nuts that are supossed to hold the top frame in position among others. Bob Thompson
Bob Thompson

Bobs missed the point! Good old competition, do you not realize that it is good old competition that gives us second rate crap that is built by the cheapest workforce, instead of quality goods made by working class tradesmen, enjoying a reasonable living standard. Take a look at a bumper made years go in Britain, compare it with the cheap crap made in Tiawan today, but its cheap!
Bob

Bob Thompson wrote, “Have two brand new fenders which I fit on my 63 B and they fit like they were made for it” Are you surprised Bob? Assuming they were purchased to fit an MGB I would expect them to be made for it.

Do BMH have any competition? Are they cheap? Is the quality of workmanship that expected from a skilled craftsman? In my opinion, based on experience of building a car using a new shell, the answers are no, no and no. Do I want BMH to go bust? No, and I am happy to pay a sole supplier a high price for satisfactory quality but I am not happy paying a high price for poor quality. I would also be happy to pay a supplier twice the price (or more) of a Taiwanese bumper if anyone could make one to the same standard that we expected 30 years ago.

Incidentally my shell was £4,000 (about $6,000). Maybe my idea of ‘high price’ is someone else’s ‘cheap’ and maybe I’m being unreasonable to expected skilled craftsmen to fit the front wings, doors, boot lid, bonnet and front valance and not just attach them with the nuts and bolts.

Tom, you are referring to an industry that may or may not have been destroyed by ‘traitorous shop stewards’ or by ‘cretinous directors’ but my shell was manufactured a couple of years ago. The point is the “Quality of BMH body panels”, not what happened at MG or Triumph decades ago, BMH should get it right today and tomorrow.

Geoff
Geoff King

What a hornets nest of working class angst has been stirred up.

The reason why Taiwan is producing crap is because that is the specification required by moss et al.

I was talking to a plater recently who plated for moss, but because he was doing too good a job, ie the bits were lasting too long, they dropped him.

The computer we are all using is made in Taiwan, at least the motherboard is, and the quality is top rate. Competition especially global competition drives prices down.

Newsnight, a BBC late night current events programme said last evening that productivity in Germany was 29% higher than the UK, France 32%, and the good old US was a resounding 55% higher.

A slap dash unionised workforce coupled with a useless management, all led by politicians scared of the shop steward has been the reason for appalling quality and robber barron prices, that is until the Japs arrived and wiped the floor with them all.

BMH quality today is the result of arrogance, and apathy, and we can't go elsewhere, but we can make life difficult for them by complaining and sending stuff back.

By the way Bob, have you used a plumber lately, these are presumably the epitome of the 'working class' you defend, well mine charged the earth, was useless, lazy, incompetent and I'm now the local sheriff hunting an outlaw plumber.

Useless, why can't Sony do plumbing.
Tom

Thanks very much for your comments guys, it seems that the overall view is that there is plenty of room for improvement in quality, even on their own shells, especially with regard to the positioning of holes, captive nuts and the general finish of the panels/assemblies. You would think or at least like to believe that a company registered to BS EN ISO 9001:2000, could react to a situation which must be costing them time and money on their own assembly line, i.e. the re-positioning of pre-drilled holes, surely a very simple task.
I am currently having a little difference of opinion with BMH over the quality of panels fitted to my car and I know that they are well aware of the fact that they do have quality problems, but refuse to admit it.

So if there are any Vendors reading these threads, go and audit them under their BS registration, you are entitled to do so, also inspect supplied panels and return poor quality, do not pass them to your public.

I will keep you posted if BMH have the decency to respond.

Regards
Graham

I personelly think BMH do a wonderful job of making panels and bodyshells on worn out original tooling that was totally crap when it was new. of course it was built and designed by Red Robbo so we will blame him. Perhaps BMH should stop providing this unique service then we would really have a reason to moan. As Tom suggest the rules of the game are clear, if you do not get what you want then buy it somewhere else and let BMH go to the wall. For myself I have been unable to find anyone whom can supply panels of better quality and fit so I buy em fit em and am glad they are near enough.
Bob

Amen Bob. One thing that amazes me is the short memory for what our cars were like new. They were rather basic maybe crude cars. I worked at the dealers in the early to mid 70s. The fit and finish by todays standards varied from good to rather poor. Especially when there were labour problems. People just expect to much some times? These were cheap cars. But there is nothing made since that has the fun per $ Bob Thompson
Bob Thompson

Red Robbo neither built nor designed the original tooling, he was just a communist troublemaker who wished to see the British car industry bite the dust for the sake of his traitorous politics.

Management on the other hand let the side down by accepting dodgy tooling, and proceeding to build even dodgier cars.

It is the poor worker who has suffered through being put out of a job because the consumer, when faced with a choice, voted with his cash, preferring to spend it on something that delivered quality and reliability, rather than shoddy workmanship.

Similarly, there is no excuse for BMH producing shoddy panels, drilled holes are not the result of old press tools, but a couldn't care less attitude, or put another way, the attitude of a monopoly supplier.

These panels are expensive, and BMH must be made to realise that they have to buck their ideas up, they are currently a disgrace.

i don't wish to see BMH go out of business, heaven forbid, but they would reject my torn dollar bill, just the way I expect to reject their ill fitting panel, so we the consumer must make life difficult for any vendor who fails to deliver good product.

Tom

BMH are producing their panels and bodies using about 90+% of the *original* tooling. It is only because David Bishop found so much that they were ever able to get into the business of producing panels again, and so they are truly original, warts'n'all. However holes and tappings should be easier to get right - where they are wrong.
Paul Hunt

Red Robbo wanted to see the British car industry shut down< next tom you will be trying to convince all of us that Arthur Scargil wanted all the pits to close when even YOU know it was that BITCH.
Bob

Ignoring the British politics it is a fact that reimported rust free American shells are prized in the UK because it is acknowledged that the panel fit is better than a heritage shell.

Heritage stopped marketing bare shells and switched to selling shells with doors, hood and trunk lid because they knew they were getting bad press.

I don't know if it's still the case butit used to be that one wing was a good three eighths inch longer than the other.
ANDREW WRIGHT

Yes, it was 'that bitch', who vowed that the likes of Scargill would never hold the country to ransome again. He and his supporters had only themselves to blame and is why British industry has been virtually strike free for many years.

"one wing was a good three eighths inch longer than the other" - was ever thus.
Paul Hunt

Scargill defeated the Heath administration twice in the early 70's, because he was determined that his unelected politics would prevail over a democratically elected govt.

He succeeded because Prime Minister Heath was a forerunner of Al Gore et al, useless, and because the govt did not prepare for winter by building coal stocks up.

Maggie didn't make the same mistake, she was made of sterner stuff, and wasn't going to be beaten by a tin pot dictator such as Scargill, who was never interested in the miners, just forcing his utopean ideas on the people, without of course going thru that slight inconvenience for all communists, winning an election.

I seem to recall the West Germans battering down the Berlin Wall so that they too could share in Erik Honnekers blissful paradise, East Germany, remember Bob, that delightful place that murdered its own people, particularly those daft enough to believe that life in the west was better.

It took those great heroes Maggie and Ronald Reagan to defeat the 'Evil Empire', and Scargill was certainly a part of that corrupt idea,

Stop reading The Socialist Worker and become a patriot.
Tom

This thread was discussed between 29/07/2002 and 12/08/2002

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