Sfully synthetic oil | MG MGB Technical

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MG MGB Technical - Sfully synthetic oil

Has anyone been using fully synthetic oil in a B? I’ve been running a Ford ‘Kent’ engine on Halfords fully synthetic for two years now with very favourable results. The ‘Kent’ engine is about the ‘B series’ vintage, (i.e. not modern).

Results so far are;-
1) The running temperature has dropped by 5degC, due to the reduced friction.
2) No increase (or decrease) in oil consumption (about 1liter per 3200miles).
3) A bit subjective, but the valve components show NO wear after 53,000miles. I don’t have a control for this, but from previous experience I’d expect some wear by now.
4) No other problems in 53,000 miles, with the engine (1 battery, 1 Starter Motor, 1 water pump)

I now propose to use fully synthetic oil in the B and will post the results about this time next year. If any one has already done this I’d be interested in their comments, thank you.

M Baker

I had considered using Mobile1 synthetic in my rebuilt engine, but decided to go with the BMC's original recommendation as a proven product, Castrol 20-50, but I also substitute one quart of oil for a quart of Lucas HD Oil Stabilizer, all on the recommendation of my engine rebuilder. Still less expensive than all synthetic. I also use the K&N oil filter.

Gary Kinslow '69B roadster Pale Primrose

Hi,

I use Motul competition 300V oil in my B engine, and I'm very satisfied.

My prvious engines suffered a lot with valve train wear (camshaft and followers) probably due to more or less hairy cams (hihg lift) and heavy valve springs.

The last engine has done 2 seasons of historic rallying. Last weeks I partially inspected some components, and was very happy to discover that the valve components were in as new condition.

If you look at the chemical/physical properties, it is clear that the Motul oiml is one of the best available...

After my experiences, i'm fully convinced.

André

André

No experience with synthetics but I have to echo Gary's choice of filters. I used a K&N for the first time last year (replacing a Fram) and maybe it's my imagination, but the oil pressure seemed to come up much quicker.

John

Halfords oils are an bit of an unknown and fully synthetic may mean a GIII mineral oil (highly refined mineral with a performance level similar to "true" synthetics).

Synthetics have been used in Bs for many years and I know one using 0W40 M1.

Ester based oils such as 300V, Silkolene, Millers are excellant for high performance use, as they thin less at higher temperatures.

Be aware that changing to a synthetic, especially ester based, will clean an engine of any crud left behind by a mineral oil.

Paul

Paul

Several months ago I purchased a filter cutter and have been cutting all my used filters and have purchased around 15 new filter and cut them to see how they look inside. K & N is one of the new filters I purchased and cut open to how it compares with other brands. I haven't done any scientific tests but by observation and measuring dimensions I have some opinions. All filters will provide some degree of protection. All filters will restrict oil flow to some degree especially with 20w-50 oil in cold weather. Too much restriction will cause a pressure drop across the filter When the pressure drop exceeds the spring tension of the filter bypass valve the filter will pass some unfiltered oil.

The K & N filter has a thicker can than most other filters, but I don't recall ever seeing a filter can burst on a normally operating lubrication system. The nut for filter is a nice touch for ease of installation and removal. Lets see how it stacks up when compared with other filters. All examples listed here are numbers specified for an MGB.

Number of filter media pleats. K & N, 55; Wix, 63; NAPA Gold, 63; Fram 36; Purolator, 61;
Filter media width between end caps. K & N, 2"; Wix, 2 1/2"; NAPA Gold 2 1/2"; Fram, 3"; Purolator, 2 3/4".
Media end caps on all except Fram are made of steel, Fram uses cardboard end caps.
Anti-drain-back valves. K & N, Wix and NAPA used identical valves with good sealing. The Purolator looks OK but doesn't appear to be as good as the first three. Fram uses a flimsy looking valve but it slips into the cardboard end cap with nothing to provide good sealing.
Bypass valves, K & N, Wix and NAPA use similar bypass valves, K & N has the best sealing. The Fram uses a plastic valve inserted into the end cap with no additional sealing. The Purolator has a steel bypass vale that seems to be rather stiff. In case you haven't noticed the Wix and NAPA are identical filters, the NAPA filter is made by Wix.

The K & N is a well made filter, but based on my observations the Wix or NAPA Gold provide more filter area with similar quality at less than half the cost. Based on some previous engine top end rattle problems with Fram filters I don't use them for anything, although the seem to work OK in the MGB. About half the MGB's I see at car shows use them.

I have some filter photos in my Yahoo photos, the album is open to the public.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/flash1929/album?.dir=29fb&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

FWIW, Clifton

Clifton Gordon

Clifton,
Have you dissected a Purolator PureOne yet? I've been running a PL14670. Other interesting filters to study would be a Mann W917 and/or a Volvo 3517857 (I think these are the same manufacturer, but I could be wrong). I see both filters recommended frequently....

Cheers!

Rob Edwards

I use Mobil-1 15W-50 in a 1967 Sunbeam Alpine, a 1973 MGB-GT, and a 1977 mgb roadster, in addition to using it in my moderns.

Good luck,
Chuck Edwards

Charles Edwards

I have been running Mobil 1 15W-50 after break-in of about 10K miles and showing good oil pressure and great gas mileage.

I use the Motorcraft FL300 oil filter and always have near instantaneous oil pressure at startup.

S Rechter

Rob, The Purolator I mentioned in my post is a PL14670. It has a big filter media and is well made. The anti-drain back valve doesn't look a well built as the ones in Wix, K & N and The NAPA. Overall I think it's a good filter.

I have used the Motorcraft FL 300 in the MGB GT I used to own, it worked well. I cut a Motorcraft FL-1A, It looks like it was made by Purolator.

FWIW, The Advanve Auto Total Grip filter Box has a disclaimer that theeir filters are not made by Honeywell, owner of the Fram label. I cut one of the Total Grip filters and is looks like a Purolator, the filter media had 5 or 6 fewer pleats than the comparable Purolator but was otherwise identical inside. The can of the Total Grip has the complete can cover with sandpaper like finish for grip when installing or removing.

More filters are here;
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/flash1929/album?.dir=a084&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/flash1929/my_photos

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

Hi Clifton,
I looked at the photos and the one shown is an L14670 (Premium Plus), not a PL14670 (PureOne). The former uses a white can whilst the latter uses a blue can. I know the PureOne version uses a different anti-drainback valve than the Premium Plus -- the PureOne is made of some sort of silicone rubber and is red in color. Whether it is simply a different material or whether it is also a different design, I don't know. I'm hoping you can tell me! ;-) Do you have photos of the PureOne filter you opened?

I think it says something about the reputation of Fram filters if a storebrand says "Not made by Fram." ;-)

Thanks!!!

Rob Edwards

The MGOC in the UK sell a filter made by Fram that they claim has an improved anti-drain back filter (however they don't state improved over what, it could be over a plain hole). I bought a couple but on the roadster with up-ended filter noticed an immediate increase in pressure rise time over what I have been used to with Unipart and Champion, so changed it again. They are OK on the V8 with hanging filter but won't buy any more.

This oil filter study has been around up to 10 years: http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html There are three Frams tested, and they do vary.

Paul Hunt 2

FWIW I do find the pressure comes up much more quickly with the "improved" Fram on my GT (up-ended filter) in comparison with Unipart filters. I just hope it looks better inside than the US variant. That said, my main motivator for change was a new Unipart filter that turned out to be so firmly blocked it dumped half a fresh oil change on my driveway.

Steve Postins

Clifton,

I'd be interested in you doing a Mann W917. I had read all the comments about it on the BBS, so I tried one at my last oil change - based on what I'm seeing at the dipstick, I don't think the drainback works as well as the Wix 51068.

John

John English

Rob, You are right, I didn't carefully read your comment. I'll get a Pure-One soon and see what's inside.

John, I haven't found a local source for Mann filters. I believe the filters I have been using for my Mazda Protege 5 may have been made by Mann, they are genuine Mazda parts made in Europe. The bypass valve is like the ones used on Purolator, but they use a paper band tied around the element, Purolator usually has a string around the element.

Paul, My Son uses a Fram PH-1 filter on a Chevy small block race engine, he hasn't had any oil pressure issues with it. I haven't opened one, but they must be better than the usual Fram replacement filter.

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

Hello,

Look in the archives. This topic has been discussed many times with many adverses opinions on full synthetic oils.

Cheers,
JGC

Jean Guy Catford

Email me, Clifton. If you can't find one, I can get one here and send it to you. I know several Volvo shops that stock them.

Cheers!

Rob Edwards

I ran a 3.5 on the cheapest 20/50 I could buy and changed every 3000m. When I stripped her down, she was as clean as a whistle inside and only the bores showed their age. The mileage was a little over 200000 Imperial miles.

This regime wouldn't be good for a high revving twin-overhead italian screamer but works for the MG stump pullers.

It's like feeding your cat - they like salmon but dry nuts are just as good for them.

FWIW - Roger

RMW

Go to this thread; Thread: How long will an engine run?

I failed to add, I was using 20W50 Amsoil.
Before this &^%^%$$ oil filter fell of, I was quicker to get to full pressure, and after high speed/autox runs, much higher pressures. Plus, the fact that damage was much less than it would have been with the Castrol GTX oil in it. AND, I consider Castrol to be among the best [petroleum oil]
OK, so I admit, I have become an AMSOIL dealer.

Got to; www.amsoil.com

Now I will only use the Amsoil/Hasting/Wix brand filters.

The new nano-technology, synthetic fibre material that Amsoil use's, makes more sense than anything else I've seen.
Check it out!
http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/eao.aspx

[now if I could only figger out how to post the pictures of the damage to the main bearings]
The crank polished out to .010 " where it had been cut 4 years ago!
No damage to the main caps.

Yes, we ship to anywhere. And if you want to become a dealer and make a little cash, or a preferred customer, and get the discount.

SF
Dwight
Email me............

Dwight

RMW - exactly. I change mine every 3k and at a top-end overhaul on the V8 it equated to 'low mileage' on the RPI web-site descriptions despite having done 65k in my ownership and the PO hadn't done a rebuild either. The bores still showed the honing marks over about 90% of the surface.

Paul Hunt 2

Rob, A Purolator PL14670 has been opened and photos posted in my yahoo photos.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/flash1929/detail?.dir=29fb&.dnm=864fre2.jpg&.src=ph
The anti-drain back valve appears to be the same as the L14670 except the PL uses silicone and I think the L filters use Nitrile rubber, The silicone is supposed to be more flexible when cold. The PL also has a PTFE treated base gasket to make filter removal easier. The filter element in the PL uses a gray filter media that is claimed to trap smaller particles than conventional filters. The L14670 uses a tan/beige filter media like I have seen in most filters I have opened. I got my PL & L's mixed so my above comments weren't accurate, this is the first Purolator PureOne filter I have opened and I'm impressed with the difference in quality between the PureOne and the Premium Plus. The PureOne looks like is was assembled by people who really care about what goes in the box.

I have side-tracked from the original topic of this thread. Here is a partial quote for an automotive lubrication engineer about Castrol and synthetic oils.
The complete article is at:
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article105.html

"Only oils that are created using Poly-Alpha-Olephin based technology are considered to be synthetic. At least by anyone who knows better. The Castrol Syntec synthetic oil is actually just a much more thoroughly refined 'dino', coming from the same crude that all conventional 'dinos' come from. Even though their base stocks closely approach the performance of PAO synthetics, they still contain trace elements, and are still susceptible to the effects of temperature extremes that full synthetics are almost immune to. By the way, Castrol does not make their own oil. They never have. They don't even own a single refinery. Never have. They simply but their base stocks from one of the commercial suppliers (Coastal-Unilube is one), buy a custom-blended additive package from an additive supplier, and have a bottler package and label it all for them. That doesn't mean that it isn't any good. It is very good. But in repeated testing, the Castrol products exhibit a wide variance in performance, the results of getting their products from many different suppliers. Syntec may be good, even excellent oil...but it sure ain't synthetic! The same was true for Texaco Havoline oil for a couple of years - two separate companies were legally allowed to manufacture and distribute Havoline oil. Shell was one, Equilon was the other. The Equilon-sourced product was far superior to the Shell-sourced product in every single performance category in repeated tests. Unfortunately, there was no way for the average consumer to determine which supplier his Havoline was coming from, for the labels were quickly changed to remove this information. This is all a moot point now for Shell is the sole supplier of Havoline branded oil now. I just stick with Mobil 1, and that other stuff I talked about earlier."

Several years back I noted some 20w-50 Castrol I purchased had a change in color and it poured from the container like a 10w-30 oil. The difference was so obvious I did a double check on the container to make sure I didn't buy a lighter grade oil. It was labeled 20w-50 and worked OK, but was different from the previous Castrol I had used. Cantract change?

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

I've used NAPA gold filters exclusively for many years. I'm pretty certain that they are the same as the high end WIX units that have always done exceptionally well in comparative filter media studies. As for oil, I have 8 vehicles, with 3 over 200k miles, and have used NAPA 10w40 every 3500-5000 miles on everything I own for years. Never had any engine problems or noticeable performance issues.

Interestingly, this summer I bought a cosmetically
spotless one-owner 97 Nissan Pickup with 125,000 miles for $850 that had a record of 3000 mile oil changes using Castrol Synthetic and Pure One filters. No oil pump, valve train or ring problems, no blown head gasket, and all sked maintenance had been done by the dealership but the main and rod bearings were down to copper and it had a bad bottom end knock. Who knows...

mark

Clifton - maybe a new formulation in old containers. I first bought GTX many years ago and it was always 20W/50. Then about 15 years ago I noticed it had changed to 15W/50 which was fine by me. Then about 4 or 5 years ago I noticed it had changed to 15W/40, which was noticeably thinner and gave lower hot idle oil pressures in the V8 which I wasn't happy with, although it seemed OK in the roadster. It comes with the claim '25% improved cold-start performance' which is probably due to its thin-ness. Looked at various Castrol world-wide web sites and different continents do seem to get different formulations. After trying various oils including some horrendously expensive Castrol Magnatec, I reverted to Halfords 15W/50 for the V8. Didn't see why I should spend more on the roadster, so that gets Halfords as well. In the UK containers are generally marked 'for older high-mileage engines', 'for injection engines' and 'for modern engines' and using an oil designed for a modern engine with its tighter clearances is not only a waste of money but even worse harmful to our high-clearance engines.

Paul Hunt 2

As Clifton stated above most Castrol synthetics in US are Mineral Oil. A true PAO Castrol synthetic will probably state made in Germany (about the only place they cannot con motorist).

Paul

Thanks for the PL14670 shots. Interesting stuff!

Cheers!

Rob Edwards

Paul

In cold weather, it is beneficial to use an oil that has good cold start flow properties as it will get to the parts of the engine that need it far more quickly.

A 15w or 20w will struggle to get around the engine in very cold temps.

Oil basically will be the following thickness at 100degC (sae 40 = 14cst, sae 50 = 18cst and sae 60 = 24cst)

At lower temps

Grade..At 0C.......At 10C.....At 100C

0W/20..328.6cSt....180.8cSt.....9cSt

5W/40..811.4cS.....421.4cSt....14cSt

10W/50.1039cSt.....538.9cSt....18cSt

15W/50.1376cSt.....674.7cSt....18cSt

20W/50.2305cSt.....1015cSt.....18cSt

Even a 0W20 is thicker at low temps than a 20W50 at operating temp. You can obtain 300V in 20W60 but only necessary when fuel dilution is an issue.

The difference between synthetic and mineral is syth thickens less when cold and thins less when hot, which are both beneficial, but often not necessary under normal operating conditions and temperatures.

Another difference is that mineral oils have to use more viscosity improver additives which breakdown with use and consequently a minerals "operating" viscosity thins with use, again not a concern with 3k changes.

The main additive useful for the older engine is the zinc anti wear additive, and energy efficient oils should probably be avoided due to the reduction in this additive, because it is considered that these may have a potential to poison cats.

Magnatec is expensive because it uses esters. When a layer of ester molecules is in place, another layer will be attracted to the outer positively charged ends of the first layer of molecules and then another to the exposed negatively charged ends of the second layer and so on, This is electrostatic adhesion and anything from 10 to 50 layers can build up on a metal surface. This is enough to be significant where lubrication is concerned; on finely-finished machined surfaces, the layer can be of similar depth to the surface roughness: i.e. 0.1 to 1 micron.

In order to meet the higher current oil specifications even the basic mineral oils are having to use GII+ or GIII base oils as part of mix.

For modern European cars an HTHS of 3.5 is usually required which is basically a 40weight oil so no real difference between old and new engines with regard to operating viscosity.

The US is CAFE driven to use lower operating viscosities, however this may have a beneficial effect on wear when short trips is the norm and oil operating temp is seldom reached, also because of the increase in flow they can run cooler which again may have positive wear benefits.

Consequently a high ester based oil such as Redline 5W20 with an HTHS of 3.3 and high zinc may tick all the boxes for a F1 engine or venerable B but its not cheap.

Paul

Paul

Clifton, would you try the new nano-technology Amsoil filter?
With synthetic fibres?
I would even be willing to send you one.
SF
Dwight

Dwight

Fram makes a "tough gard" or some such similiar name upgraded filter for about a $1.00 more. They claim a better drain back valve among other things. The early Chrysler v8 filter adapts very nicely for the late model upright filter mount (#43). I have found that the drain back valve appears to work very well. The oil pressure is there almost immediatly even after sitting for a week or more.

With the mechanical oil pressure guage you can see the oil pressure jump up in real time.

Interestingly, the guys at the local Kragen auto parts store, state that all filters now sold by Kragen have drain back valves, even if they are for a hanging filter application which doesn't need the valve. Apparently people on occaision installed a filter w/o the valve in an application that required the valve and then blamed the filter and the auto parts store for a defective filter and engine damage.

Barry

Barry Parkinson

John,

Are you saying the Mann W917 fits on MGB's? I use the Mann W917 (same as OE Volvo) filters on a ' 97 Volvo 850 that I drive daily.

Many thanks,
Dave

David Plantz

Dwight, This oil filter study has photos of a Amsoil SDF24. This is one of the more informative filter studies I have seen. It includes a flow test of easch filter as well as some comments about each filter.
http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/
http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/amsoil-sdf24.htm

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

Clifton
Those were amnufactured by Hastings for Amsoil.
Now they have the new product with synthetic fibres.

http://www.amsoil.com/StoreFront/eao.aspx

SF
Dwight [I am amember, but the site doesn't recognize my protocol]

Dwight

Check out their gear lubes.

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/svg.aspx

It's what I use in my '77 'B'
And I autox this car.
With 20W50 in the gearbox and the final drive.

SF
Dwight

Dwight

Dwight, I see the difference. I sent you an email. You can open a filter with a hack saw. You may get a few filings in the filter element, but that doesn't matter on a new filter you are opening to observe quality. Some grease on the hack saw blade will keep most filings out. I used a hack saw on several new filters prior to buying a filter cutter. The cutter gives a nice clean cut on most filters. If you decide to use a hack saw start you cut about 3/8" above the base, cut through the can and keep rotating until you have gone around the can. I sent you may mailing address if you want me to open one. I'll return it to you after I cut it open. I don't know of any Amsoil dealers near here, I do see them at most automotive swap meets.

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

Oops!
I use 20W50 in the engine and the transmission, but 75W90 Severe Gear in the differential. [final drive, rear axle, etc]

Clifton, still haven't seen the email...............

Here's another website, called the 'Car Bible'
He has various subjects, but this one about oil is good.

http://www.chris-longhurst.com/carbibles/engineoil_bible.html

SF
Dwight [I am amember, but the site doesn't recognize my protocol]

Dwight

Dwight; It didn't come back to me, I used this email address and sent it through Yahoo. dcm@manautox.com
I'll try again with my Roadrunner email. Dwight, Roadrunner sent it back to me, Host Unknown.
I don't have local known source for Amsoil filters, if you decide you want to send one for me to open and return to you my mailing address is;

Name as above.
820 Honeysuckle Rd.
Asheboro, NC

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

Well, you will need my zip code, the omission wasn't intentional, it's 27203.

Clifton Gordon

Dwight
I also tried to email you from the 1100 section and got a return failure message.

Martin ZT

There's the problem, dcm@manautox.com
correct email---- dcm@mnautox.com

Take the 'a' out Clifton.
SF
Dwight

Dwight

Try that email again Clifton.

Amsoil has 14 distribution centers.
AND, you could become the closest dealer to YOU.

But first, you need to know the product, and what benefits it has in the lubrication industry.
And what it can do for you!

SF
Dwight

Dwight

Dwight, I sent it again yesterday afternoon using the corrected email address. It didn't come back to me so I assumed you received it.

"But first, you need to know the product, and what benefits it has in the lubrication industry.
And what it can do for you!"

I have no interest in becoming a Amsoil dealer.

Clifton

Clifton Gordon

This thread was discussed between 11/01/2006 and 20/01/2006

MG MGB Technical index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG MGB Technical BBS is active now.

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