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MG MGB Technical - Throttle Bodies for MGs?

On page 18 of the latest Classic Motorsports magazine, there is an advertisement for SU throttle bodies ( we wont even talk about the BEAUTIFUL front suspension shown in the add above!)

So whats the deal? I thought we were all in agreement that FI would not work because of the firing order and the siamesed inlets on a B. I am afraid to find out what the things cost, but they sure do look the part. I note that no mention of an engine management system is made. The word "idle" is in the add, so I assume this is not a raaace only product.

Pete
Pete

It's not that Fuel Injection won't work, it's just that the benefits are limited.

MG Rover did fuel inject the A-series in the later minis, which also had siamesed ports.

However, that system was designed for economy rather than performance. While it would be possible to use fuel injection, there would be little performance benefit over a DCOE45, assuming it was correctly set up.

If I were to use EFI on a 'B, I would probably use a Z-S manifold, bolt a "scrapyard special" Throttle Body to that, and then drill the appropriate holes in the manifold for the injectors. This should give similar performance for less money.



Dave

"(we wont even talk about the BEAUTIFUL front suspension shown in the add above!)"

OK, if you insist, I won't talk about it, but I have driven an MGB with one installed, and it performs a good as it looks! I have one on order for my own MGBGT.
Dan Masters

re: ( we wont even talk about the BEAUTIFUL front suspension shown in the add above!)


The spit and polish shine on that unit is actually my own drool...I have "laid hands" on the FastCars, Inc front crossmember in the shoppe up in Wayland, MI...it is truly a work of art...and, as Dan, I, too, have driven an MGB with this conversion...and I WANT ONE!

rick
rick ingram

Listen Dan: The only way I can cope with not having that suspension is by going into complete denial. I really need one of those for reasons too mumerous to mention. ;-)

Pete

PS. I bet that test drive included a few extra cylinders also.
Pete

Pete

There is a lot of info on Minimania site re FI

http://www.minimania.com/web/DisplayID/1480/SCatagory/FUEL%20SYSTEMS/DisplayType/Calver%27s%20Corner/CarType//ArticleV.cfm

Paul
Paul

Thanx for the link Paul. It seems that it can be done to some advantage. Will the first one to install the TWM throttle bodies please call in and let us know how it went. Or if it was cheaper than a V8 swap!

Pete
Pete

OK...what is the link for the FastCar suspension...the add never came up while I was looking at it and you guys have got my curiosity up.
Frank

Sorry...just realized the add referred to was in the magazine. Do they have a website?
Frank

Frank,

They don't have a web site yet, but they are working on it. Their phone number is 269-792-6632, and e-mail is fastcars@chartermi.net Ted Lathrop is the designer's name.

I have a copy of the photo used in the ad that I can e-mail to you if you'll send me your e-mail address.
Dan Masters

Dan,
The address is: ratpat at direcway dot com. Thanks,
Frank
Frank

Dan,
Thanks....she really is beautiful. What is your thoughts on this compared to the Hoyle set-up? Also I know you are one of the V8 experts that still visits this board...what are your thoughts on the Hoyle IRS set-up?
Frank

Frank,

There is really no comparison between the two. The Hoyle set-up is basically a coil-over conversion, utilizing the stock crossmember (modified), steering rack, king pin, hub, and brakes. The only difference between the Hoyle and stock is the wishbones and the coil-over shocks. It's probably a pretty good unit, but the Fast Cars unit is a complete new design, with nothing at all of the stock set-up involved. Not one single piece of the original is retained.

The Hoyle IRS looks to be a pretty good set-up, but I have no first hand experience of it.

I'm using a JAG IRS in my own V8 conversion, but it will be almost a complete new design by the time Ted gets through with it. I'll be using the pumpkin, hubs, and hub carrier, but every thing else will be either custom fabricated by Ted, or will be after market (Wildwood brake conversion, for example). The lower control arms, radius arm, axle shafts, and mounting details will all be by Ted.

I'm using the JAG unit because I think it's a pretty good unit for my application, and because I just happened to have one laying around the garage collecting dust!
Dan Masters

Dan,

Could you please e-mail me a copy as well. Sounds intriguing.

Thanks,
Shareef
Shareef Hassan

Shareef,

It's on the way - anyone else?
Dan Masters

Shareef,

Your e-mail provider kicked my e-mail back, said your inbox was full. I've put the picture on the web at:

http://members.aol.com/danmas/fastcars.jpg
Dan Masters

Dan,
She really, really is beautiful. What is the cross member made of steel, stainless steel, aluminum. Is it painted when you purchase it or is there a coating to protect this shiny finish. Finally...seems I saw on a previous thread this item is selling for over 3 grand. Is that the case?
Frank

Working fi system already built, tested, and sold out for the next few months. The whole houston club bought'm out. even the bloody proto-types are sold out, except for one proto-type based off of the su 1.75.
CJD Dark

CJD

You mean the throttle bodies advertised in Grassroots? When you say FI SYSTEM do you mean that the rest of the package is available as a kit? As I see it, major problem with FI is the plumbing and engine management. None of it difficult by itself, but time consuming and of questionable reliability until sorted. As for price, I can't see it comming under 2k by the time you buy all the bits.

If they are selling that fast, I am sure we will hear from someone who has one installed. Thanx

Pete
Pete

Hi Pete,
Rover found solution for FI on siamesed inlets. They use double frequency of injection so there is always enough a/f mixture in throttle body. Injectors are active every 180 deg instead 360 deg but with half of fuel (if you are interested in details take a look in book Engine Management by Dave Walker). For shore you will have to look for ECU unit that could be quite cheap if you go for Megasquirt bat you need a lot of skills (http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html) . All about FI you ar elooking for is on following link including prices (http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBody-FR.html)

toni
toni

Toni-

The problem with siamesed ports is also that it must be timed to camshaft events is you retain the existing firing order. Merely doubling the frequency of injections will not prove adequate.

Unfortunately Megasquirt and Megasquirt II are not sequential systems, so cannot address the charge robbig problem. There was a bit of discussion about this about 6 months ago.

As I went around with the previous poster about this for about a weekbefore he got it, I recommend you search archives before recommending this partcular ECU. Even the megasquirt forum is recommending single point if you use their controller.

This in no way reduces my respect for the megasquirt controller- I'm toying with the idea of using a GM tbi system on an MGB- but to use the TWM throttle bodies requires a more sophisticated sequential controller, and to work best, the ability to time events so the second injector doesn't fire until the intake on the first cylinder closes, which would require a fairly latge second injector and varing pulse lengths
greg fast

I just found the patent application for the A-series injection system over on MGB general. Might be of some use.

http://www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=&subject=70&source=T&thread=2004122801584520108
dave

Thanks Dave. I hope this clears things up a bit.


Werner
werner haussmann

So my original question still stands; Is there a "Kit" that deals with the issue of siamesed intakes and the MGB cam events? TWM must have more than throttle bodies available or else the advert would not depict them hanging on a MGB manifold. The web page did not seem to address the rest of the system as it pertains to the MGB.

Pete
Pete

It's a fuel based system, you can use the original dizzy with it and keep it either fuel based, or lock the dizzy and use a timed system or even upgrade it to pertronix ignitor and use that to make a complete system. The one I've been going over uses a diy-ecu and carter TBI you can slap directly onto your downdraft manifold and hit it that way, or as a fellow diy'er did and converted the SU carbs into throttle bodies (Shown here on a TR4: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=4789&highlight=tr4 ), and used direct port injection on his Triumph TR4. TMW Makes throttle bodies that are direct bolt-on replacements for the DCOE carbs. These systems use a diy ecu called megasquirt:http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html pretty snazzy and well thought out, its just programming it that's troublesome. Good point about this system is if you're just going to keep your car with its stock set-up you can use the megasquirt to monitor most aspects of your car's functions: http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=5406 trust me it'll make tuning your car a whole lot easier if you know everything its doing and when its doing it.
CJD Dark

Pete in Canada-

re your post 28 Dec-

No. There is no kit that pemits use of port injectors w/ TWM throttle bodies that completely or correctly addresses the charge robbing problem.

greg fast

That said, there is no way of completely mitigating it, just making it not so bad. Here's a website about injecting a mini, which has a list of ECUs that will work with injecting a 5 port head.

http://www.hotbricks.org.au/articles/guide_efi.html
dave

Pete. I built my own EFI set up over two years ago. I went through the whole gamit of 1-3/4 SU's then the weberDCOE45 and then the EFI and contrary to what people say the EFI system is produces more power in my MGB than all the rest. I supersprint and hillclimb my MGB and it is the second fastest in my state, the fastest also uses EFI, a Weber IDA throttle body and a completely programmable ECU. I built my set-up using 2 1-3/4 SU butterfly sections on a modified 1-3/4 SU manifold, the ECU is an Australian Haltech fuel only computer. I'll send you a photo of the unit if you are interested.
Laurie
Laurie houghton

Laurie:

I think I have figured it out: The TWM is not really a port injection system. There is a manifold after each throttle body. The charge is symply fired into the manifold and then made available to each cylinder as required. The WEBER throlle bodies would not work as well on an MG since there is no balance tube between the two runners. I would love to see how you did yours with the SU bodies peter_plouf@sympatico.ca Thanx all for helping me get this straight.
Pete

Laurie-

I'd be interested in any pictures of your system. please send to the listed e-mail.

Thanks
greg fast

there is a thread on the midget section about how a chap has installled EFI on his 1500 midget engine. it seems there is a company in the usa which can provide a programable module.
Cecil Kimber

This thread was discussed between 19/12/2004 and 06/01/2005

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