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MG MGB Technical - VR1 Oil??
| I know oil discussions have come up before, but I do not recall if Valvoline VR 1 has been discussed. It is supposed to have the higher ZDDP levels in it. Does anyone know any more about this oil or currently using it? |
| Bryan |
| I use it in my MGC as advised by MG Motorsport, but not in any of the other cars. |
| Steve Simmons |
| The MGB would fall into the same category right? |
| Bryan |
| Even though VR1 states it has zddp in it, the oil meets API service SM, it has to have reduced zddp to meet SM requirements. I'm sure they sell lots of oil because they claim to have zddp and others do not make that claim. Actually you need an oil rated SL, SJ to get the old zddp content some people say you must have to make a flat tappet cam car survive, time will tell if they are right. My 2 cents. Clifton |
| Clifton Gordon |
| The engineers in the group probably have all the figures, but given the VR1 is the only easily available oil that even lists ZDDP,plus it comes in 20/50, I am using it. I was getting the GM OEM additive which had good ZDDP level. Can;t even get that at the dealer any more. |
| Bruce-C |
| STP Oil Treatment has ZDDP in it. Use a bottle every other time you add a quart of VR1 racing oil. |
| Rick Stevens |
| Bruce, EOS has been reissued as of Dec/07. The new part number is 88862586. The list price is now $19.00 plus per bottle.(must be new and improved). Tony |
| Tony Shoviak |
| For more information on ZDDP and our oils check out www.lnengineering.com/oil.html Great web site full of information on oils. Tony |
| Tony Shoviak |
| Synthetics claim to use substances other than ZDDP to protect flat tappets. I don't know the specifics. I don't really believe in additives either. Motor oils are very carefully balanced so that all the agents in them work together properly. Millions are spent getting the formulation right. Dumping a bunch of whatever in them will upset that balance. Lemonade is yummy because it has sugar in it. Would you dump an extra three pounds of sugar in the mix? Just my opinion of course and I'm not a lubricant chemist. In my 4-cylinder cars, including two MGBs, I use DA Super Speed Sport oil in 20W-50. It's a semi-synthetic designed specifically for older engines. |
| Steve Simmons |
| In the states you have Castrol Syntech 20W-50 with zink. It says it does not meet catalyst compatibility requirements. Look it up. They dont sell it in OZ so I use VR1. They can make it as you would not normally use a 20-50 in a new car with a cat. Denis |
| DENIS4 |
| Another option is to use "motorcycle oil". The local Pep Boys, Murray's, etc. carry Castrol Motorcycle oil in 20/50. The rating is SG/SH IIRC. Costs about $.50 a quart more than 'regular' oil. Another thing that will help is to reduce the loads between the lifters and cam lobes. This can be done by using lighter components - ie: tubular pushrods, lightened lifters and alloy valve spring caps. A stock cam will also put less load on the lifter than a 'performance' / reground cam. If you use high performance valve springs, that will increase the load. Keep your valves adjusted properly. Any excessive gap will just add to the acceleration the valve train goes through and the load. Tom |
| Tom Sotomayor |
| I'm using motorcycle oil in mine. Not exactly EPA approved for this use, but ask me if I care! I don't think they would approve of me driving my nasty, smelly old cars in the first place! |
| Rick Bastedo |
| That is something I didnt think of. Just because they call the VR1 "racing oil" it is still street legal and meets standards. Even though it does meet regulations, I would think it would have a higher level of zddp than other oils that do not mention zddp at all though. |
| Bryan |
| I was going through this decision making process a few weeks ago. I noticed that some of the Valvoline racing oils said on the label that they were not allowed for highway use, and some of them did not make that statement. I don't know if the oils were different or if it was just a difference between new and old stock. I ended up putting a straight 30 Valvoline racing oil in it, which did cite ZDDP on the label, but I don't know that I made the best decision. Charley |
| C R Huff |
| I did some reading on this and it turns out that the VR1 doesn't quite meet the minimum ZDDP content necessary for flat tappet systems. I think what is needed is around 1400ppm and someone tested this and found that VR1 is a little over 1200 and their findings varied. The "Racing only" oil has the required ZDDP ppm but they are not formulated to withstand extended street use. |
| BurgerCokeFries |
| I got this from David Navones web site advertising their ZDDP additive... After 70+ years of trouble-free, metal-metal engine protection, the US Government is eliminating ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate = Zinc and Phosphorus) from domestic motor oil. If your engine was designed prior to the 1990s, your non-roller lifters may require ZDDP in your motor oil to avoid premature deterioration. Don’t let your lifters run metal-to-metal. Keep ZDDP, via ZddPlus, in your motor oil. Add the 4 fluid ounce contents of this ZddPlus bottle at every oil change. Each 4 ounce bottle of ZddPlus contains more than twice the ZDDP of GM's EOS. Why is ZDDP being removed from motor oil? Because contemporary engines with roller bearings no longer require the additional protection of Zinc and Phosphorus. Not true for classic cars, tractors, muscle cars, etc. Also removing the Zinc and Phosphorus from motor oil increases the life of the catalytic converter. But classic cars, tractors, etc., don’t have cats! Also, as part of its ongoing effort to reduce vehicle emissions, the EPA has mandated that emission systems must have a service life exceeding 120,000 miles. To achieve this, automotive manufacturers have required oil suppliers to remove additive packages from motor oils that could reduce emissions compliance. ZddPlus is not a typical oil additive. By adding a small 4 ounce bottle of ZddPlus at every oil change, an adequate amount of Zinc and Phosphorus will continue to protect your classic engine. ZddPlus simply maintains the Zinc and Phosphorus that has recently been removed. ZddPlus — Don’t drive off without it! How ZddPlus Works When the pressure and temperature of a metal-to-metal junction increases, the compounds in ZddPlus instantly create an extremely thin, glass-like barrier that prevents the two metals from coming into contact with each other. For instance, when the engine is under a heavy load from racing, jack-rabbit starts, up-hill climbs, passing, etc., the area between the tappet and the cam shaft instantly becomes protected by the Zinc – Phosphorus created barrier. When the engine is not stressed, the ZddPlus simply remains dissolved in the motor oil. ZddPlus is like adding an insurance policy to your engine. It’s there when you need it. How Much to ZddPlus Add We recommend adding the entire 4 ounces of ZddPlus per 4 to 5 quart oil change. Just unscrew the cap and pour the contents of the ZddPlus bottle into the engine oil input of your vehicle. (Be sure to dispose of the bottle in a safe manner.) This will yield around the proper amount of Phosphorus and Zinc. Large capacity systems can use two bottles and the contents of the ZddPlus bottle can also be split for smaller engine oil capacities. --- This product is intended for Pre OBDII, off-road, and racing vehicles only. --- For Off-Road Vehicles ONLY! --- |
| BurgerCokeFries |
| Don't assume motor oil is motor oil. If motorcycles and cars didn't have different requirements for lubrication then they would both use the same thing. |
| Steve Simmons |
| I should add to my comment that I used a 60/40 mix of Castrol 20w-50 and Motorcycle oil at my last change. My Motor is happy. As always, best to replace oil at frequent intervals. |
| Rick Bastedo |
| There are links in the archives about the recent oil formulation changes. I believe one recommendation is to use diesel oil such as Chevron DELO 400 and Shell. These are 15W-40 which viscosity-wise should be fine. The recommendation to be especially cautious if you have aggressive cams and heavy spring pressures makes sense. |
| Robert McCoy |
| Most of the recommended diesel oils have been changed since that article. Could not find one at my parts store that was old formula. Tony Thanks for the tip on the GM OEM. I used this as engine assembly lube for my TD and would like to run it in the car for a couple thousand miles. For the B, I have been adding the STP red along with the VR1. |
| Bruce-C |
| Rick, be careful about mixing different types of oils. There is no way to know if they will work together properly. Oil ain't oil! |
| Steve Simmons |
| Steve, You're right. Bikes and cars need different oil. New cars need (by legislation) to have the ZDDP removed. Bikes need to have the ZDDP since they don't have roller cams. I'm talking HD type engines - not sure what the latest crotch rockets are using anymore. The motorcylce oils are aimed squarely at the HD crowd. Since the oils carry the appropriate API ratings they must meet the requirements set by those standards, regardless of the intended application. I also agree about not mixing oils. The additives to adjust viscosity are actually a type of rubber! My day job company makes the equipment the oil manufactures use to grind up the rubber bales. At this point I would not mix oils of different viscosities OR different brands - even of the same viscosity. The formulations may be similar, then again, maybe not. Tom |
| Tom Sotomayor |
| If you want to be sure, Google up "Brad Penn" refinery in Pa. USA. They are aware of the flat tappet problems and make hi-per oils for this purpose and market a special 30Wt break-in oil with extra amounts of ZDDP. Also Moss in now or soon will be selling oils by the case to meet our flat tappet needs, and also will market an addative of ZDDP to put in your other brands or for break-in uses. Wayne Hardy |
| Wayne Hardy |
| Below is a writeup I found on the internet presenting a different view of the ZDDP issue. Is it wrong? I don't know. I worked for the lubrication oil additive industry for many years in manufacturing but not product development. I do know that the product development teams ran many legacy tests on new formulations to assure adequate protection for older engine technologies. I don't know how long those legacy tests remain unchanged Diesel oils especially run a lot of specialty tests to meet manufacturers specific concerns. American, Japanese and European manufacturers each have special needs that had to be met. There are a great number of flat tappet diesels out there used on-road and off-road (incl agricultural). Hence I feel that diesel oils would more adequately address our engine technology issues than PCMO (Passenger Car Motor Oil) technology. From what I can see on the internet several classic car sites have been recommending diesel oils for some time. ****************************************************** I received some really good information on engine oils from a respected professional in the field of engine oil development. He has also written, with another author, a SAE paper titled "How Much ZDP is Enough?". It is SAE document #2004-01-2986 if you care to locate it and read in greater detail. I have his permission to share a couple of his personal articles on oil myths. Here is one: Engine Oil Mythology Myths are ill-founded beliefs held uncritically by interested groups. Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. One was that the only good oils were oils made from “Pure Pennsylvania Crude Oil.” This one got started before the Second World War when engine oil was crude oil with very minimal refining, and crude oil from Pennsylvania made better engine oil than Texas or California crude. With modern refining, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil. The next myth was that “modern” detergent engine oils were bad for older engines. This one got started after the Second World War, when the government no longer needed all the detergent oil for the war effort, and it hit the market as Heavy-Duty oil. These new detergent oils gave the pre-war cars, which had been driven way past their normal life and were full of sludge and deposits, a massive enema. In some cases bad things happened such as increased oil consumption – the piston rings were completely worn out and the massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high and horrendous oil consumption. If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently it takes about 75 years for an oil myth to die. Then there is the myth that new engines will not break-in on synthetic oils. Apparently there was an aircraft engine manufacturer who once put out a bulletin to this effect. Clearly the thousands and thousands of cars filled with Mobil 1 as factory-fill, which have broken-in quite well, should have put this one to rest. However, this myth is only 40 years old, so it has another 35 years to live. All of these myths have a common theme; newer oils are bad. And this brings us to the latest myth – new “Starburst”/ API SM engine oils are bad for older cars because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. This one has gotten big play in the antique and collector car press lately. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP). Before debunking this myth we need to look at the history of ZDP usage in engine oil. ZDP has been used for over 60 years as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability. Unfortunately, ZDP contains phosphorus, and phosphorus is a poison for automotive catalysts. For this reason ZDP levels have been reduced by about 35% over the last 10-15 years down to a maximum of 0.08% for “Starburst”/API SM oils. Zinc dithiophosphate was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Starting in 1942, a Chevrolet Stovebolt engine with aftermarket copper/lead insert-bearing connecting rods was used for the standard engine oil qualification test. The insert-bearings were weighed before and after test to evaluate weight loss due to corrosion. The phosphorus levels of oils that passed the test were in the 0.03% range. In the mid-1950’s, Oldsmobile got into a horsepower war between its Rocket engine and the Chrysler Hemi. Both companies went to high-lift camshafts and both got into camshaft scuffing and wear problems very fast. There were three solutions: 1) better camshaft and lifter metallurgy, 2) phosphating the camshaft, and 3) increasing the phosphorus level from ZDP up to the 0.08% range. In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (“Sequences”), two of which were valve-train scuffing/wear tests. Knowing that this higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, some oil companies, thinking that they were offering the customer additional protection dumped even more into the oil. It was soon learned, however, that, while going above about 0.14% phosphorus might decrease break-in scuffing, longer-term wear increased. Further, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling. In the 1970’s, the ZDP level was pushed up to the 0.10% phosphorus range because it was a cheap and effective antioxidant. The increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in Cadillacs pulling Airstream trailers from thickening to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Recently, the need for this higher level of ZDP to protect the oil from thickening has been greatly reduced with the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus. Enough history. Getting back to the myth that “Starburst/API SM oils are no good for older cars, the argument put forth by the myth believers is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts. The “Starburst”/API SM oil standards were developed by a group of OEM, oil additive company, and oil company experts. When developing any new engine oil standard, the issue of “backward compatibility” is always of great importance. Indeed, the group of experts spent a lot of time researching this issue. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran “no harm” tests on older cars with the new oils; no problems were uncovered. Beyond the “no-harm” testing, the new “Starburst”/API SM specification contains two valve-train wear tests. One is the Sequence IVA, which tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a 2.4L Nissan single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger followers. The wear limits for this test were tightened from those of the previous oil specification, even though the old spec had a higher, 0.10%, phosphorous limit. The second test is the Sequence IIIG, which evaluates cam and lifter wear. For this test, a current-production, GM Powertrain 3.8L engine with the valve train replaced with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980’s, is used. The only reason for using this older valve-train design is to ensure that older engines are protected. All “Starburst”/API SM oil formulations must pass these two tests. In addition to the protection offered by these two valve-train wear tests and the “no-harm” testing, a review of the knowledge gained over the years in developing previous categories also indicates that no problem should be expected. For example, the new “Starburst”/API SM oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950’s. They do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960’s, but that is because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants, which were not commercially available in the 1960’s. The oil’s ZDP level is only one factor in determining the life of an older camshaft or a new aftermarket camshaft. Most of the anecdotal reports of camshaft failures attributed to the newer oils appear to be with aftermarket camshafts. Breaking in extremely aggressive aftermarket camshafts has always been a problem. The legendary Smokey Yunick wrote that his solution to the problem was to buy multiple camshafts and simply try them in a slave engine until he found one that survived break-in without scuffing. Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that “new oils will wear out older engines.” Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will take about 75 years for this one to die also. This came from http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=167978. It is on several other sites. ------------------------------------------------------------ The following is from a presentation he gave to a classic car club. Are Newer Engine Oils Really Bad for Older Cars? Miracle Drugs/Additives * Engine oil additives are like drugs: - More is not necessarily better - Take just enough to control the problem - They have side effects, sometimes fatal - They often interfere with each other * Formulating engine oils is a balancing act - Standardized engine testing is used to get the correct balance Sequence Tests * Standardized engine tests for determining oil quality have been used for 50 years * Currently they are: - Sequence IIIG; viscosity increase, deposits, and wear - Sequence IVA; scuffing - Sequence VG; sludge - Sequence VIB; fuel economy - Sequence VII; copper/lead bearing corrosion Sequence IIIG * The Sequence IIIG test is based on the current 3.8L GM engine * The engine is retrofitted with a flat tappet valve-train based on the 1987 3.8L Buick * This ensures that older engines using wear sensitive flat tappet/push rod valve-trains are protected by ILSAC GF-4/API SM oils Sequence IVA * This test is based on an out-of-production 2.4L Nissan engine equipped with a single overhead camshaft and finger followers * This valve-train is similar to that used on the old Ford 2.3L Pinto engine * This type of valve-train can be more wear prone than the Sequence IIIG valve-train ILSAC “Starburst”/API SM * The current oil standard recommended by US and Japanese auto companies incorporates two camshaft scuff/wear tests that are based on non-roller valve-trains to ensure “backward compatibility” of newer oils * The ILSAC/OIL Committee, which developed this standard, did not “ignore wear issues in older engines and only worry about catalyst life” Are newer Engine Oils Really Bad for Older Cars? There is no reason to believe that newer oils will not protect older cars on the road from premature cam and lifter wear. Lets examine why Why should newer oils protect older engines? * The ZDP levels in newer oils are comparable to those needed to solve scuff problems encountered in the 1950’s with some older engines * The newer oils must pass two rigorous camshaft scuff/wear tests (IIIG and IVA) * Somewhat higher ZDP levels were used in oils in the 1970’s because the ZDP was also being used as an antioxidant * Ashless antioxidants have reduced the need in today’s oils for ZDP to be used as an antioxidant Next Question * Are newer engine oils bad for breaking-in engines rebuilt with flat tappet camshafts? - The Sequence IIIG and IVA tests start with new cams and lifters with no camshaft pre-lube * So again the answer is the same: newer oils should protect at least as well as older oils The Real Question? * Are newer engine oils bad for breaking-in rebuilt engines equipped with high performance camshafts? Camshaft Break-in Scuffing * High performance flat tappet camshaft break-in has always been problematical * Smokey Yunick said the best way is to order several identical cams, pick the best looking ones, put them in a slave engine, run a break-in, and if one didn’t scuff-use it! “The devil is in the details”*There are at least 20 different design and production parameters that must be closely controlled to ensure proper camshaft break-in * Engine oil is just one of them * Oil tends to get more than its share of attention because the average engine rebuilder can’t do much about things like lifter bore positioning or angularity “Nothing but the oil changed” * When something goes wrong, I am always told the oil was the only thing that changed * Usually many things have changed You may not like to hear it but….. There may be no oil in the world that will protect some of these high performance camshafts with excessive lift rates that cause the contact patch to run off the edge of the lifter What is ZDP? * Zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate * Abbreviated as ZDP or ZDDP, which ever you prefer * Forms a polyphosphate tribo film separating the cam lobe from the lifter * Prevents adhesion of the lobe to the lifter, and break-in scuffing * Also protects the surfaces from abrasive and corrosive wear ZDP: the Miracle Drug * The truly amazing thing is that the ZDP forms this polyphosphate tribo film where it is needed * A thin film, measured in nanometers, is formed on surfaces as the result of contact pressure and sliding speed * You only need enough active ZDP to form the film initially and replenish it as it wears away How Much ZDP is Enough? * It does not take much ZDP to form these thin films on the wear surfaces * The ZDP does not “waste itself” forming films on all the surfaces of the crankcase * ILSAC GF-4/API SM oils contain much more ashless antioxidants, which allow the ZDP to “save itself” for acting as an anti-wear agent instead of an antioxidant Summary * The preponderance of dynamometer and vehicle testing indicates that the current level of ZDP in modern passenger car motor oils is more than enough to protect older engines * If you want to install a high-performance camshaft, invest in a roller-follower cam and lifters |
| Robert McCoy |
| Call me a skeptic, but I have read to many cam failures within 10,000 miles of startup to not still try and run a good level of ZDDP. Note that the test engines were all factory engines. Our parts such as lifters are now coming from various manufacturers in places like china and india. I am not saying they are not the same as factory, or that the above article is wrong, but there has to be some reason for the mutitude of early cam failures. This topic and issues with cams can be found on almost every old car web site there is. |
| Bruce-C |
| Take this or leave it, but...I contacted Valvoline via their website asked them about an oil for a pushrod flat tappet engine. Their reply was short and simply stated "Just simply use our VR1 racing products, our racing oils contain (zddp) additives. High Zinc and Phosphorus, you do not have to use any other additive." Their words quoted. |
| Bryan |
| This is exactly what I've been looking for - Thanks! I changed my oil yesterday with VR1 20W-50 - nice oil, seems a bit different than the ordinary oil I've been using. |
| Rick Bastedo |
| You have a right to be skeptical, Bruce. The simple fact that more cars than just British seem to be reporting this problem would say to me that they can't all be getting their parts from the same sources as we do. And that would seem to indicate a more common factor ~ probably the decline in ZDDP, rather than the design/manufacture of parts or their metalurgy. |
| Bob Muenchausen |
| Clifton Gordon was right on when he said, "Actually you need an oil rated SL, SJ to get the old zddp content some people say you must have to make a flat tappet cam car survive, time will tell if they are right." Oil producers are changing their formulas by the day. But I do think you can rely on the SL and SJ ratings. And whoever said GM OEM is no longer available is correct also - they quit making it. |
| Tom Fisher |
| Tom, EOS was rereleased in Dec/07. It has a new GM part number 88862586.i just bought two bottles at the new price. Tony |
| Tony Shoviak |
| Moss now offers a ZDDP additive...$9.95 product # 220-805 |
| R Dougherty |
| "Bikes need to have the ZDDP since they don't have roller cams. I'm talking HD type engines - not sure what the latest crotch rockets are using anymore." Harley Evolution engines have used roller lifters since 1984. Honda Motorcycles have had overhead cams since the early 60s. So, I wouldn't count on motorcycle oil having more ZDDP. |
| Carl Floyd |
| The main purpose of motorcycle oil is to support the wet clutch. Motorcycle clutches live in motor oil, so motorcycle oil needs friction modifiers to avoid being so slippery as to prevent the clutch from gripping. It also needs some gear oil qualities for the transmission, which shares its oil with the engine. Any claims that a non-ZDDP oil will wreck your cam in 10,000 miles is thoroughly debunked; I've gone several times that far using nothing but current generation full synthetic oil, no troubles yet. If the oil systematically destroyed cams in 10k miles I'd have been shut down by now. Engines are typically rebuilt by hand, in cluttered workshops, by normal fallible human beings, using parts whose quality can sometimes be, ahem, variable. And when something goes wrong, we blame ... the oil? |
| Sam Good |
| Is ZDDP different from or better to use than "KREX" in your oil? |
| Rich Osterhout |
| Here's Hot Rod Magazine's article on oil for flat tappets. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/index.html They recommend racing oil, diesel oil, or adding cam break-in lube to oil. (Look up the web site for Castrol 20W-50 Syntec for another option). Use quality lifters and cams, look into oil flow improvements such as modified lifters, and keep valve spring pressures down. One interesting factoid. There was a lot of flat lifter supply problems for American cars also as US suppliers went bankrupt or were taken over by people who didn't know what they were doing. Overseas suppliers filled the void with lots of questionable junk. One reason valve train wear on API SM tests may seem to be better than reported in the aftermarket is that GM never had problems with their lifter suppliers. Remember GM flat tappets and cams replace original roller tappets and cams in the V-6 test engines. For US engines anyhow good lifters can now be readily obtained but you'll have to pay more than for the junk. |
| Robert McCoy |
| Would VR1 be beneficial to use in the gearbox? |
| Steve Rechter |
| Castrol Syntec "Classic" 20W50 and Mobil 1 extended 20W50 both contain 1200ppm of ZDDP and are recommended (by the manufacturer) for flat tappet engines. Typical oils (GF-4)for "modern engines" contain about 800ppm of ZDDP. ZDDP is not good for catalytic converters, thats why they are removing it as it's not needed in roller tappet engines. Regards Tony |
| Tony Bates |
| There are millions of modern vehicles that do not have roller tappets. I have two, 2002 Mazda Protege 5 and a 2004 Toyota Tacoma, they are overhead cam engines but the cams ride on a flat shims in cam followers. I recently checked the shop manual on a 2006 Tacoma, the 2.7 engine appears to have roller rockers but the V6 engine still uses flat shims in the followers. I mention this because many people say new cars all have roller lifters. Many do but many do not. I haven't heard of any of those car engines failing due to reduced ZDDP. I'm showing the image of lifters reemoved from my MGB about 6 years ago, long before ZDDP was a concern. I rebuilt the engine because I had some smoking and exhaust valve recession. I had no clue the lifters were pitted. If you haven't recently checked your lifters you may be chasing ZDDP to protect lifters and a cam that are already shot. Pitted lifters do not give any warning when they are bad. FWIW, Clifton  |
| Clifton Gordon |
| If you want to buy ZDDPlus send an email to: zddplus@hotmail.com They are based in New Zealand, and can ship Zddplus to you. They'll probably email you a price list. I'm waiting for mine and as soon as I can I'll order it. Cheers |
| R P Shoebridge |
| A link to the VR-1 product info on Valvoline's wesite: http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf I had read that about 13% by weight was the recommended amount of zinc for flat tappet applications. I don't read many stat sheets for motor oil, but the zinc/phosphorous listing at 0.130/0.120 would seem to put it at the right percentage. I'm about to switch to VR-1 20W50 for my normal usage. A friend is about to break in a new engine, and we're considering using the straight 30W Conventional Racing Oil (not street legal) for the break-in period. This oil also has reduced detergents, which is why I assume it is not recommended for normal driving usage as someone stated above. Mark |
| Mark J Michalak |
| OK, that link doesn't work quite right. Get to the VR-1 page, and on the left sidebar you'll see a heading for "Product Info". This will take you to a .pdf page that contains the spec sheets for the oil. An additional note, Amazon.com sells VR-1 oil by the case at about $45. I haven't checked the price at the store yet so I don't know if it's worth it after the $8 shipping charge, but I haven't been able to find any other place that sells oil by the case online. I've been shopping for the best price. No doubt Moss's oil is OK, but I have to think there's a big price markup there considering we don't know who makes it and it's $53 a case plus shipping. |
| Mark J Michalak |
| Joe Gibbs makes a break in oil that has zink and phosphorus additives. The oils are of very good quality. |
| ASH Andrew |
This thread was discussed between 05/02/2008 and 09/03/2008
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